THWAITES/EURE
Louise Staley
Paul Reed on 22 June 1999 posted an interesting suit and IPM involving
Robert Eure.
"As to the Evers/Eure descendants, Farnham (p. 18) cites de banco roll
807 for a suit involving Robert Evers, the elder, over land, etc., in
Breedon. "Robert Evers comes and says that he long ago took to wife
Elizabeth Malory and he and Elizabeth were seised, as in right of
Elizabeth, of the said tenements, the reversion of which should
descend to Robert, son of the said Robert and Elizabeth [dated Hilary
2 Edward IV (1463)]. The IPM of Robert Evere, taken at Leicester on 20
April 1480, found he died 3 Feb. 19 Edward IV, seised of Bredon by the
courtesy of England after the death of Elizabeth, his wife. His
granddaughters, Anne Constable, aged 17, Isabel Constable, aged 15
1/2, and Elena Thwaites, aged 13, are his next heirs, daughters of
Robert Evere, deceased, son and heir of the said Robert Evere named in
this writ."
In understand some of these relationships are also covered in CP II:
418.
From this and other sources I get the following line:
1. Robert Eure d. 3 Feb 1480 married Elizabeth Mallory
2. Robert Eure d. before 3 Feb 1480
3. (a)Anne Eure b. 1463 married Ralph Constable d. before 5 May 1498
(b)Isabel Eure b. 1464 married William Constable d. 1492 d.s.p.
(c)Elena Eure b. 1467 married to ? Thwaites
Is this right? Would a girl of this relatively obscure rank, even
though a co-heiress, been married at 13? And who did she marry? The
Yorkshire Thwaites pedigrees say a Henry Thwaites married an Ellen
Constable which could have come from a mis-understanding that Ellen's
Constable sisters were in fact Eures. However that Henry Thwaites had
a gt-grandson dying in 1520 after producing two daughters making it
impossible his gt-grandmother was born in 1467.
Does anyone have any idea what happened to the land in Breedon or
further information about this Thwaites link?
regards
Louise
Reedpcgen
Thomas Sterky.: Detention of deeds relating to a toft and wood, parcel of the
manor of Breedon.: Leicester.
C 1/486/23 John Constable, knight. v. Thomas Sterky.: Detention of deeds
relating to a toft and wood, parcel of the manor of Breedon.: Leicester.
C 1/582/20a Frances Thwayts, daughter and heir of Henry Thwayts, knight, by
Richard Gresham, her guardian. v. William Thwayts and Anne, his wife, executrix
and late the wife of the said Sir Henry.: Profits of the said manors and
one-third of the manor of Breedon.: York, Leicester.
Louise Staley
"Reedpcgen" wrote in message:
>C 1/486/22 John Constable, knight, Francis Thawttes, and Robert
Bygot. v.
>Thomas Sterky.: Detention of deeds relating to a toft and wood,
parcel of the
>manor of Breedon.: Leicester.
>
>C 1/486/23 John Constable, knight. v. Thomas Sterky.: Detention of
deeds
>relating to a toft and wood, parcel of the manor of Breedon.:
Leicester.
This is probably Sir John Constable who married Agnes Metham. He was
the son of Ralph Constable and Anne Eure. The Robert Bygot is probably
of the Settringham Bigods although I can't tie him in specifically.
>
> C 1/582/20a Frances Thwayts, daughter and heir of Henry Thwayts,
knight, by
> Richard Gresham, her guardian. v. William Thwayts and Anne, his
wife, executrix
> and late the wife of the said Sir Henry.: Profits of the said manors
and
> one-third of the manor of Breedon.: York, Leicester.
This is Frances, daughter of Sir Henry Thwaites died 1520 and his wife
either Anne Constable, daughter of Sir Robert Constable and Beatrice
Hatcliff or Anne Savile daughter of Sir John Savile and Elizabeth
Paston. From looking at the PRO site it appears this is dated after
1522. I have no idea who the William Thwaites is who married Anne,
widow of Sir Henry Thwaites. Would this imply that because Anne, the
widow of Henry Thwaites, was not the guardian of Frances that she was
not her mother?
This entry seems to imply to me that there was only one heir of Henry
Thwaites (d 1520), i.e. the said Frances, because Richard Gresham is
suing for the entire 1/3 of Breedon that came to the Thwaites. This
Frances married John Gresham, presumably son of the Richard Gresham
mentioned above, I think he died before 1564 and she in 1579. The
mention of one third of the manor of Breedon supports the view that
this Frances is the sole heir of Elena Eure mentioned in IPM posted
yesterday.
Despite the plentitude of Constables, I don't think that the
inheritance of Breedon came through Anne Constable as she is from the
Constable of Flamborough line and cannot be Ellen Eure masquerading as
a Constable nor a child of one of the Constable sons who married the
other two Eure heiresses (see the Cal. Patent Rolls entry below).
So which Thwaites married Ellen (Elena) Eure? The traditional pedigree
would place her as the wife of the first Henry Thwaites, the one said
to have married Ellen Constable. That chronology does not work. So
what if she were the wife of the Henry Thwaites the son of Edmond
Thwaites?
It is not known who this second Henry Thwaites married or when he
died. There is an entry in the Cal. Patent Rolls 1502, 18 Henry VII,
May 9 Westminster which suggests that this Henry was dead before then:
"Grant to Beatrice, Lady Greystok, widow of Robert Constable,
sergeant-at-law, of the lands of Edmund Thwaytes and Joan his wife,
both deceased, during the minority of Henry, kinsman and heir of the
said Edmund and Joan; to wit, son of Henry son of the said Edmund and
Joan; and of the marriage of the said heir, though already married;
and pardon to the said Beatrice for the abduction of the said Henry
and the marrying him to Agnes daughter of the said Robert and
Beatrice.
Pardon to Henry Thwaytes, kinsman and heir of Edmund Thwaytes,
deceased, to wit son of Henry son of the said Edmund, for marrying
without licence Agnes daughter of Robert Constable, late
sergeant-at-law, and Beatrice his wife."
This entry is curious in a number of respects; firstly it says Henry
(the grandson) is the heir of Edmund and Joan, and it says both of
them are deceased but it does not say Henry (the son) is deceased.
Secondly it pardons Beatrice for kidnapping Henry (the grandson) and
marrying him to her daughter "though [he was] already married." Henry
the grandson was therefore married twice before May 1502. Now although
I have read the discussions about age of marriage, I am still unclear,
if the king recognised the first marriage, such that it was mentioned
in the pardon of the second, does this mean Henry was over 7 at the
time of the first marriage and if so born before 1495?
This would sort of fit with Henry the son being the husband of Ellen
Eure. She was born in 1467, married by 1480 and old enough to bear
children by 1483. However if Henry (the grandson) was born as early as
1483 he would have been as old as 19 at the time of his abduction and
marriage to Agnes (Anne) Constable. On the other hand, if Henry the
grandson was born as late as 1495, his mother would have been 28,
seemingly too old to have a sole child.
In summary:
1. Henry Thwaites of Lund (alive in 1485), said in the pedigrees to
have married Ellen Constable
2. Edmond Thwaites of Lund died about June 1500 married Joan who died
before 9 May 1502
3. (a) Henry Thwaites of Lund
....4. Sir Henry Thwaites of Lund and Sand Hutton died July 1520
married before 9 May 1502 (as a minor) to Anne Constable and then to
Anne Savile
....5. (a) Frances Thwaites married John Gresham, she held Sand
Hutton, Lund & (?) Breedon
.... (b) Daughter Thwaites died young
3. (b) Margaret Thwaites married about 1499 Sir John Mallory of
Studley and Hutton Conyers
3. (c) Eleanor Thwaites is said to have married about 1494 John St.
Quintin who died about August 1509
I suppose the most useful thing about this sideline into obscure
Yorkish Thwaites is the identification of Frances Thwaites as the
apparent sole-heiress of Henry Thwaites, father of Sir Henry who died
in 1520. Providing Breedon came through the wife of one of the Henry
Thwaites's then any other purported children of Henry who died 1520,
either by his Constable or Savile wives must belong to someone else.
regards
Louise
>
Reedpcgen
Village Notes (6 vols.). I'll try to check when I have a chance. It was
beyond the scope of the article I was doing at the time. I'd like to know if
someone does descend from that connections (I know people with non-United
States ancestry [we tend to say American, oblivious of the others on these
continents] do have connections in that region).
Paul
Louise Staley
Both the daughters of Edmond Thwaites and Joan left sons who tried to
challenge the will of Henry Thwaites.
William Malery of Studley, and William Seynt Quyntyne, esquires,
grandsons of Edmund Thwaytes. v. Dame Anne, executrix and late the
wife of Henry Thyawtes, son of the said Edmund.: Detention of deeds
relating to the manors of Lund, Garwarby, alias Gurwoldby [Garrowby in
Kirby-Underdale], Sand Hutton [in Bossall], Aike [in Lockington], Eske
[in Leven], Forby (Forthby), and Charleton. C 1/540/41
Descendants of Edmond Thwaites,
Mallory: MCS 109:11 provides US descendants of John Mallory who
married Margaret Thwaites, daughter of Edmond.
Saint Quintin: not known if the William St Quintin above left issue or
if there were any other children of the Thwaites/St Quintin marriage.
Apparently the Dugdale Visitation lists 5 children of John St Quintin
and Eleanor Thwaites, John, Herbert, Edmund, Walter and James, but
unhelpfully leaves out William above. John the son is said to have
left issue. Don't know about the US.
Gresham: Elizabeth, daughter of John Gresham and Frances Thwaites
(gt-granddaughter of Edmond) married Sir Henry Neville and left issue.
The Nevilles held Lund 1598-1606. Many descendants, including Tim
Powys-Lybbe. Don't know about the US.
Louise
William Addams Reitwiesner
I haven't been keeping close enough track of what's happening in this
thread, but see
<http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~addams/personal/mallory.html> for some
North American descendants of the Thwaites family.
William Addams Reitwiesner
wr...@erols.com
Louise Staley
Two additional pieces of information add to what I posted before on
the Eure/Thwaites connections.
Chris Phillips has very helpfully translated the 31 March 1478 will of
the first Henry Thwaites of Lund. This will was probated on 9
September 1480 providing a new, earlier death range for the first
Henry and ruling out completely that Ellen Eure could have been the
mother of his children since she was not born until 1467. Henry leaves
everything to his son Edmund.
The next piece of information is from the will of Joan Ingleby (nee
Stapleton) from Testamenta Eboracensis Volume 3 where Joan leaves to
Anne and Isabell Constable and Ellen Thwaites, daughters of Dame Ellen
Constable her daughter, late wife of Sir John Constable of Halsham,
knt., the sum of 500 l.
It appears that we have two unrelated people (Robert Eure and Joan
Stapleton) referring to a son and daughter respectively and their
granddaughters by that child and the grandchildren are the same
people.
The only sense I can make of it is :
1. Robert Eure d 3 Feb 1480 = Elizabeth Mallory
2. Robert Eure = Ellen Ingleby (she m2. Sir John Constable)
3 (a) Anne Eure b 1463 = Ralph Constable
3 (b) Isabel Eure b 1464= William Constable
3 (c) Ellen Eure b 1467 = Henry Thwaites
1. Sir William Ingleby = Joan Stapleton
2. Ellen Ingleby = Robert Eure (she m2. Sir John Constable)
3 (a) Anne Eure b 1463 = Ralph Constable
3 (b) Isabel Eure b 1464= William Constable
3 (c) Ellen Eure b 1467 = Henry Thwaites
1. John Constable = Margaret Umfreville
2. John Constable d bef 18 Mar 1477/78 = Lora Fitz Hugh (he m2 Ellen
Ingleby)
3. (a) Ralph Constable = Anne Eure b 1463
3. (b) William Constable = Isabel Eure b 1464
This is directly contradictory to the Yorkshire Pedigrees view that
Anne, Isabel and Ellen were daughters of John Constable and Ellen
Ingleby. On the construction above, when John Constable married Ellen
Ingleby as a second marriage for both of them, they then married two
of John's sons to two of Ellen's daughters.
As to who was the Henry Thwaites that married Ellen Eure, it must have
been Henry number 3 (a) below, son of Edmond and father of Henry d
1520. If true this has implications for the descendants of the
Gresham/Neville marriage mentioned in this thread.
Louise
I wrote ...
> Many thanks for these Paul,
>
> "Reedpcgen" wrote in message:
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