Re: Apparent CP/DD Conflict (de Lisle), part 2
Rosie Bevan
3.Three VCH accounts give us that Robert was the grandson of Ralph chamberlain to Nigel bishop of Ely, and this is the best supported version:
"The largest of three estates in Westwick in 1066 was 2 2/3; hides belonging to Blacwine, sheriff of Cambridgeshire. Together with 1/3; hide held by a sokeman of Ely abbey, it had passed by 1086 to Picot the sheriff as a 3 hide manor, later LISLES. (Footnote 48) Ely's interest in the sokeland was later reasserted and by the 1150s land in Westwick was possessed by Bishop Niel's chamberlain Ralph as successor or overlord of Anketil Vavassor. (Footnote 49) Robert Vavassor in 1199 sought to regain the tenancy of 2 1/2; hides from Ralph's grandson Robert de Lisle, (Footnote 50) probably unsuccessfully, since c. 1212 Lisle held 1/4; knight's fee in Westwick from the bishop of Ely. "
(Footnote 50 Cur. Reg. R. i. 102, 200, 447, 475; ii. 28; Rot. Cur. Reg. (Rec. Com.), ii. 69; Rot. de Ob. et Fin. (Rec. Com.), 31; Pipe R. 1201 (P.R.S. N.S. xiv), 125; Miller, Ely, 180.
URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=15347&strquery=Lisle
[VCH Cambs. vol IX p. 109 sub Westwick]
"In 1066 and 1086 the larger of two manors in Great Wilbraham was that belonging from of old to the king. It apparently remained part of the royal demesne until the 1150s, when it was divided into two unequal parts, the smaller alienated from the 1150s. The larger part, later TEMPLE manor, then valued at £12 out of a total of £20, was held 1155-8 by Ralph son of Olaf. Thereafter, reckoned worth £15, it was retained by the king until c. 1189, when it was given, allegedly by Henry II, to Hugh de Malalney.
...
The other manors in Great Wilbraham derived from 4 hides held of the honor of Richmond. They had belonged in 1066 to Eddeva the fair and by 1086 were held of Count Alan, lord of Richmond, by his chamberlain Eudes. Robert the chamberlain, probably Eudes's son, ...Probably by 1155 Robert had given half of his Wilbraham manor with a kinswoman in marriage to Ralph son of Olaf. Ralph was steward and chamberlain to Nigel, bishop of Ely; his daughter, supposedly named Beatrice, married Robert de Lisle. Robert or his son Robert was sheriff of Cambridgeshire 1198-1201. The son had the estate in 1207 and survived into the 1220s."
URL:http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=18887
[VCH Cambs. vol X p.306 sub Wilbraham]
"Eustace Picot granted 1 knight's fee at Rampton before c. 1156 to Ralph, chamberlain of Bishop Niel of Ely and ancestor of the Lisles. About 1212 Robert de Lisle held it of the bishop of Ely. In 1260 Geoffrey Burdeleys confirmed Rampton to Sir Robert de Lisle, the first Robert's son. (Footnote 33) Sir Robert, who died between 1260 and 1262, was succeeded by his son Robert (d. 1284), who was granted free warren in 1264.
URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=15408
[VCH Cambs. vol IX p.212 sub Rampton]
Chris once again has kindly supplied the sources below which support these accounts:
The pipe rolls record Ralph the Steward holding 20 librates of land in Wilbraham in 1156, then Ralph son of Olaf holding 16 in 1157, and 12 in 1158. There is no mention of Ralph after this date. It is likely that Ralph Olaf is the same person as Ralph the Steward.
Et In t[er]ris datis ... Et Rad' Dap' . Ep'i . xx. li' . nu'o . In
Wilburgeha'.
[Great Rolls of the Pipe 2, 3 and 4 Henry II (Rec. Com.) p. 15: 2 Henry II,
Cambridgeshire]
_____________________________________________________________________
Et Rad' Olaf. xvi. li' b'l'. in Wilburgeha'.
[Great Rolls of the Pipe 2, 3 and 4 Henry II (Rec. Com.) p. 96: 3 Henry II,
Cambridgeshire]
_____________________________________________________________________
Et Rad' Olaf. xii. li' . in Wilburgeha'.
[Great Rolls of the Pipe 2, 3 and 4 Henry II (Rec. Com.) p. 165: 4 Henry II,
Cambridgeshire]
_____________________________________________________________________
The following are charters extracted by Chris from British Library Cotton MS Claudius C xi. The first gives evidence for the hereditary gift to Ralph, steward of the prior of Ely of the isle of Coveney (from which the surname Insula likely derived) to be held for 5 shillings yearly [1]. In the charters concerning Alexander prior of Ely, Ralph is termed a steward not a chamberlain.
[using foliation at bottom right]
f. 338v
Alexander Prior & totus Conuuentus Elien' ecc'ie ... Nouerit ... nos donasse
& presenti carta concessisse Radulpho dapifero n'ro & amico insulam de
Coueneya ... de nobis tenend' p[er] seruiciu' quinque solid' annuatim ...
sibi & heredibus suis post ip'm ...
Bishop Nigel gave various messuages [in Ely] to Ralph, his chamberlain.
f. 339
[Bishop Nigel] ... dedisee & concessisse Rad'ho camerario meo
[the messuage that was of Goscelin, the messuage that was of Godard,
and the other men and messuages as above]
[Witnesses:] Will'mo Arch' Ric'o de Sc'o Paulo Petro &
Alex' cl'icus Alex' Pinc' Harnico P'eg'
Albto Anglico Jordano de Heneget' Paiano cl'ico
In the following charter, Ralph's land acquisitions are confirmed by Henry II. They include Northwald, Norfolk and Nedging, Suffolk representing 3 knights' fees given to him by bishop Nigel, Rampton, Cambs., Barford[2], Hinton [3] (inherited from Ralph's uncle Alan), Westwick, Cambs., lands in Wilbraham, Cambs., which he received with his wife in marriage, and messuages in Ely. These lands formed the nucleus of the L'Isle estate and feature in later inquisitions post mortem.
f. 340
Henricus Rex anglie dux Normannie & Acquit' & Comes And' ...
Sciatis me concessisse & hac carta mea confirmasse
Radulf' Camerario Nigelli Elien' Ep'i & h'edibus suis om'es t'r' suas ..
quas carte duorum suorum ei testant' vid'
Norwaldam & Neddynge quas Nigellus Elien' Ep'us dedit ei ... per s'uiciu'
triu' militu'
sicut carta eiusd' Ep'i testa' & carta conuentus Elien' confirmat' & Rantun'
per s'uiciu' vnius militis
quod dedit ei Eustachius Picot pro s'uicio suo & pro pecunia sua
& Berford per s'uiciu' dimid' militis faciend' Willm'o filio Alani
& hidam de Hentun' quam Alanus auu'culus eius tenebat
& Westwich' t'ram que fuit Anschetilli vauassoris
& t'r' de Wilburgeh[a]m quas cepit cu' vxore sua in maritagio
& quinque mesuag' in villa de Ely unu' quod Goscel' de Ely dedit ei &
quatuor alia que ip'e Ep'us dedit
T. Reni Com Corn' & R Com Legr' & H Com' Norff & H de Essex const & War'
fil' Ger' Cam'ar' apud Westm'"
Chris has fixed the date of this confirmation charter down to 1154, i.e. the beginning of Henry II's reign, to 1158, when Warin fitz Gerold was succeeded as Chamberlain by his brother Henry.
In the following charter prior Alexander confirms the gift of the Isle of Coveney to Robert son of Ralph the steward
f. 338v
Alexander Prior & totus conuentus Elien' ecc'ie ... Nouerit ... nos donasse
& presenti carta concessisse Roberto filio Radulphi dapiferi Insulam de
Coueneya sicut eam prius dedimus Radulpho patri suo ...
Likewise in the following charter bishop Nigel confirms lands he has given to Robert, son of Ralph his chamberlain - namely the manor of Nedging, Norfolk for two knights' fees, the Isle of Coveney, the manor of Northwold, Norfolk for one knight's fee, and various messuages in Ely for the annual rent of a pound.
f. 339
Nigellus dei gr'a Elien' Ep'us ... Notum sit ... me dedisse & p'sentis
sc'pti pagina roborasse Rob'to filio Rad'i Cam'ar' mei tota' t'ram et
tenura'
p'ris sui ... que p'ri suo donauimus he'ditario iure tenend' videl't
man'ium Neddynge ... p' s'uic' duorum militu' ...
Insula' de Coueneya ...
man'iu' de Northwolda ... p' s'uic' unius militis ...
mesugiu' quod fuit Goscelini de Ely in villa de Ely sicut idem Goscelinus &
Agnes uxor eius dederunt illud
in vita sua Rad'hp pat' suo ...
mesugium quod fuit Godardi Carpentar' & Radm' Saluar[iii]'[?]
& mesuagiu' eius Leoffonu' quoque piscatorem & Sithtricu' de Newenham cum
mesuag' ipsorum
Hec igit' mesugia p'fata cum ho'ibus ... damus & concedium ei ... pro una
libra prp'is annatim reddenda
...
[Witnesses:] Alexander prior Elien Will's Arch'us Ricardus
Thesaurarius Regis Angl' Ric'us de S'co Paulo
Alexander cl'icus Hub'tus clericus Will's cl'icus
Albtus Angl' & Adam filius eius Eu'ardus de Beche &
Robtus filius eius Albericus Pigot Gregorius filius
eius Hugo de Cotenham Jordanus de Henegeton' et
Horaldus filius eius Michael p'eg'nus Ric'us Morel
Rad'us filius Ric'i Ric'us Basset Willm's filius Turk'
Nich'us Janitor & Petrus filius eius & Salamon Aurifaber
Chris concludes that the bishop's confirmation to Robert fitz Ralph follows shortly after Ralph's death around 1158/59, " [CP- the confirmation charter by the bishop for Robert son of Ralph, comes after Richard became treasurer but before [archdeacon] William's death, say 1158-1160. So if Ralph was still alive in late 1158 (pipe roll), we can narrow the date of his death down to a year or two after that on the evidence of the charters. If so, surely the end of his tenure in Wilbraham came at his death, so he would have died 1158-1159]".
From the continuation of the land holding of the Isle of Coveney Ralph, serving prior Alexander as a steward, and bishop Nigel as a chamberlain, is clearly the same person - whether simultaneously or consecutively in these capacities, it's not apparent. There is no direct statement that he married a daughter of Robert, the Chamberlain of the earl of Richmond, but the conclusion is derived from the evidence of Henry II's confirmation charter that his wife brought with her a moiety of the smaller manor of Wilbraham, and a garbled account given in 1279 from a Hundred Roll entry abstracted by Farrer in Feudal Cambridgeshire, p.122/123, as follows:
"An unknown King of England held (the vill of) Great Wilburham in his own
hands and gave one moiety thereof to Nele de Chaunberlein with the advowson
of the church; the said Nele gave a moiety of his moiety to one Robert de
[Insu]la with one of his daughters, which tenement Robert de Insula now
holds, namely 200 a., of the honor of Richmond after Nele's death 100 a.
descended hereditarily to his 5 daughters, of which Edmund de Sardelowe
holds 90a. for the term of his life of John de Lovetot, who held of the
honor of Brittany; R.Hund. II 490 b"
Ralph's son, Robert, possibly named for Robert the Chamberlain, was the first to be named de Insula or de L'Isle. In 1236 his descendant, Robert de Insula, was stated to be holding two of the four hides, representing 200 acres, in the smaller manor of Wilbraham of the honour of Brittany - a good indication that he had inherited the moiety as a descendant of Ralph the steward/chamberlain and his wife. Whether or not Robert I's mother was Beatrice, there is no evidence. If she was, Robert would have been the elder son as his mother was married to Ralph by 1158 whereas Richard de Cormeilles, Beatrice's husband, died in 1177. Walter de Cormeilles was one of the five coheirs in the other moiety of Wilbraham and in Wendy, to which if he had been the second son, he would not have been entitled. There does not appear anything explicit that the de L'Isles inherited land of the Chambelain's fee after Nigel's death (except perhaps subtenancy of a knight's a fee in Malton in Orwell, Cam!
bs. in conjunction with Westwick and Oakington of the honour of Richmond) and it's chronologically possible for Ralph's wife to have been a sister of Robert the Chamberlain.
An alternative interpretation (representing corrections to both CP and DD) of the early Lisle pedigree may be drawn from the information above.
1.Ralph fitz Olaf, steward to prior of Ely/chamberlain to bishop of Ely ?d.by 1159
+ daughter/sister of Robert the chamberlain to the earl of Richmond/Brittany, who brought a moiety of the smaller manor of Wilbraham in marriage
2. Robert de Insula I, gift of Wilbraham was confirmed to him bet. 1158-1169. Holding half a knight's fee in Exning of Robert de Valoines in 1166.
+ Galiena Blund, who brought the manor of Exning. Henry II confirmed a gift to the couple by Geoffrey Ridel, archdeacon of Canterbury in 1167 [Eyton, Itinerary of Henry II, p.111]
3. Robert de Insula II b. c 1160-1170, fl 1208, party to a suit for the church of Wimpole by Saher de Quincy in which Ralph the steward is named as Robert's grandfather. Sheriff of Cambridgeshire 1198-1201
+NN
4. Robert de L'Isle III, b.c. 1190. In 1212 was holding in Lincolnshire 1 fee in Rampton and Cottenham of the bishop of Ely and a quarter of a fee in Westwick to farm of the Chamberlain's fee, and 2 fees in Nedging, Suffolk [Red Book of the Exchequer p. 524, 526].
+ 1. Sarah de Aunus b. c 1190-1200
+ 2. Rohese de Wahull married 1213, d.s.p. 1221 [HKF v.1 p.64, v.2 p.208, v.3 p.172]
5. Robert de Lisle IV b bef. 1213, son by first wife, d. c. 1261
+ Alice, dau. of Henry fitz Gerold [4] fl.1276 holding land in Coveney, Cambs in dower.
6.Robert de Lisle
4.Cassandra b.c. 1190, dau. Robert de Insula fl 1204, brought Newmarket and Exning as marriage portion
+ c. 1203/1204 Richard de Argentein
[1] VCH Cambs. vol. 4, p. 136 mentions the grant of Coveney by bishop Niel to Ralph to his steward (dapifer), to be held of the prior and convent at 5s yearly for all services. Prior Alexander confirmed the grant. [E 210/7102; BM Add MS 5810, f. 135d].
[2] VCH Beds. vol. 3, p. 181 gives that "In 1190-1 Jordan L'Enveise owed 15 marked for having right of land in [Great] Barford against Robert son of Ralph [Pipe R. 2 Ric. 1, m. 12d]" The text does go on to say that Robert son of Ralph was later followed by Robert de Suppethorp in the late 13th century).
[3]"Hinton" in the charter is indeed the manor of Hinton in the parish of Haddenham (vol. 4, p. 143). "In 1221 Simon de Insula held 3 carucates in HINTON (Henegeton) as 1 fee, and Philip de Insula held them in 1251. [BM Cott. MSS Tib. B.11, f. 107a, Claud. C XI, f. 53a]"
[4] Grant from Henry fil. Geroldi to Robert de Insula in marriage with Alice, his daughter, of the whole of his land in Mundeford, Norfolk. [I. H. Jeayes. Descriptive Catalogue of the Charters and Muniments ... at Berkeley Castle (1892), p. 68]
Thanks to Chris for his tremendous input and advice.
Cheers
Rosie