The two wives of Richard Yorke (1462 -1528)

[Paul MH]

Hello,

The starting point for this is the Visitation of Northamptonshire, a copy of which can be found via archive stream ("Visitation of Northamptonshire (1564 and 1618-19", page 207 under "Yorke of Brackley"

This records that Richard married a sister of Lord Darcy and "Elizabeth da of ... Nevill". This second marraige is said to have resulted in 4 children. George, Edith (married John Hastings of Yelford), Dorothy (married George Stringer of Derby and Thomas, who it is known married Mary Sutton.

Following the death of Richard, Elizabeth married Sir Simon Harcourt (- 1547) of Stanton Harcourt. She died in 1557 leaving a will.

In this, she appointed John Hastings and George Yorke as executors, and leaves items to "my daughter Strynger" and "my daughter Hastings", as well as "my son Thomas"

As far as I can see, it has been taken for granted by many researchers that all the children of Richard came from his marriage to the sister of Lord Darcy.

If anyone can help with which family Elizabeth Neville may be from I would be grateful. I'm happy to share the transcript of the will with anyone who is interested.

Many thanks,

Paul

[taf]

On Sunday, September 20, 2015 at 2:30:30 AM UTC-7, Paul MH wrote:

> The starting point for this is the Visitation of Northamptonshire, a
> copy of which can be found via archive stream ("Visitation of
> Northamptonshire (1564 and 1618-19", page 207 under "Yorke of Brackley"
>
> This records that Richard married a sister of Lord Darcy and "Elizabeth
> da of ... Nevill". This second marraige is said to have resulted in 4
> children. George, Edith (married John Hastings of Yelford), Dorothy
> (married George Stringer of Derby and Thomas, who it is known married
> Mary Sutton.

[snip]

> As far as I can see, it has been taken for granted by many researchers
> that all the children of Richard came from his marriage to the sister
> of Lord Darcy.

It was not exactly taken for granted. Dugdale's 1665 pedigree of Yorke of Goulthwayt gives this Sir Richard just one wife, "... dau. of ..., Lord D'Arcy and Meinill", and makes her mother of Edward (sic - the Vincent pedigree published along with the Northants visitation says Edmund), George, Thomas and daughter Anne, wife of Sir John Mallory. The glass once at St. John, Mickelgate, showed the Darcy marriage, but apparently not the Nevill one, unless these Nevills were entirely unrelated to the Nevilles, and instead bore arms with a chevron and three mullets between three asses (attributed to Askwith).

> If anyone can help with which family Elizabeth Neville may be from I
> would be grateful.

It is perhaps relevant that the father of this Sir Richard Yorke, another Sir Richard, Mayor of the Staple of Calais, Lord Mayor of York, and M.P.. is said to have been knighted (or at least to have attended) at Archbishop Neville's great feast in 1486. The younger Sir Richard would have been 24 at the time and may not have even married his first wife yet - her presumed daughter Anne was only married in 1521, while his heir, the daughter of Edward (sic), was only born in 1526. I get the feeling his second marriage didn't occur until decades after the feast, so perhaps this is just coincidence.

taf

[hepm...@gmail.com]

Thanks for that. I just found this in Collins Peerage of England (p. 438):

"Sir Simon was twice married; first to Agnes, daughter of Thoams Darrel, of Scotney, in Kent; and, secondly, to Elizabeth, daughter of ______ ________
, and widow of Sir Richard YOrk, Knt."

It's also been suggested to me that it was this Richard Yorke who, with wife Agnes, was admitted to the Guild of Corpus Christi at York in 1497 ...

Paul

[taf]

On Sunday, September 20, 2015 at 8:42:15 AM UTC-7, hepm...@gmail.com wrote:

> "Sir Simon was twice married; first to Agnes, daughter of Thoams Darrel,
> of Scotney, in Kent; and, secondly, to Elizabeth, daughter of ______
> ________ , and widow of Sir Richard YOrk, Knt."
>
> It's also been suggested to me that it was this Richard Yorke who, with
> wife Agnes, was admitted to the Guild of Corpus Christi at York in 1497 ...

Possible, but the elder Sir Richard also married twice: Flower's Yorke of Gowlthwaite pedigree in his 1563/4 visitation indicates that "Sr Richard Yorke of Yorke, somtyme Maior of the Staple of Callice whoe maryed to his first wyffe . . . . daughter of . . . . Malivererand by her had yssue"

This implies he had a second wife, perhaps the Askwith of the church glass. He didn't die until 25 April 1498, meaning he too could be the Richard with wife Agnes the year before. (There was an Askwith pedigree in the 1585 Visitation, but though published in 1875, Google treats it as under copyright and I can't find another online copy.) No widow is named in his ipm, only his son and heir Richard, aged 36 and more.

That being said, given his status the elder Richard is more likely to be either the Dom. Ric. Yorke who was admitted in 1469 or the one in 1489, all the more so since the date you have for their admission seems to be incorrect. The published records show a list for 1497 that does not include any Yorke entries. Next there is a second list for 1497 (marked [sic] in the publication). There follows 1498, then 1500 (without a list dated 1499). It looks like the scribe mistaken affixed the wrong years to what were actually 1498 and 1499 entries, and Richard and Agnes appear in the list for 1498, erroneously labeled as 1497. This suggests to me that they gained admission following the death of the elder Richard early in that year. On the other hand, the surname Yorke was not that rare. Another Richard Yorke was admitted in 1495. The Richard and Agnes of 1498 are listed along with a John and a Joan, wife of William Yorke, but I don't see a candidate for the latter in the surviving pedigrees. I would be hesitant to accept Agnes as the name of the Darcy wife of the younger Sir Richard based on nothing but this record that may refer to a different Richard all together.

taf

[hepm...@gmail.com]

I agree. I'm hoping someone has more information one way or the other. Simon Harcourt's memorial in Stanton Harcourt states, according to the transcription on findagrave.com, that secondly he is "husband of Elizabeth Darcy, widow of Sir Richard York who died 27 Oct 1528. They had no issue."

I don't know how long after his death this memorial was erected. There seem to be unresolved questions about these marriage(s).

Paul

[taf]

Actually, the Find-a-Grave entry does not say the information is from the memorial, so I wouldn't worry yourself too much about it. Somewhere along the line, Find-a-Grave got repurposed. It started out as a database of memorials, but when they encouraged people to link entries together, it slowly started to turn itself into a crowd-sourced genealogical database, with all of the benefits and drawbacks. One of the biggest drawbacks is that the creator or manager can out just about anything on the page. In this case, they put whatever information they had.

Where did the get the information? Well, one possible source is from Douglas Richardson's Magna Carta Ancestry, the second edition of which says of Simon Harcourt:

"He married (2nd) Elizabeth ______ (said to be a DARCY), widow of Richard York, Knt. (died 27 Oct. 1528) of the City of York, Yorkshire. They had no children."

Perhaps Mr. Richardson would reveal where he got this information, whether he had a primary source or if the 'said to be' phrasing indicates that he had no source but reported the information anyhow. It could be that his work was the source for the Find-a-Grave entry, or if they both derive from the same source (maybe Burke's Dormant Peerage, which reported it as early as 1866), but they probably all derive from the faulty logic that 1) Richard Yorke married a Darcy, 2) Elizabeth, widow of Richard Yorke married Simon Harcourt, so therefor, 3) Simon Harcourt married Elizabeth Darcy. Logical, but the Northampton visitation blows it all to hell.

taf

[taf]

There may be no Yorke/Darcy marriage at all. In a query published in The Genealogist in 1920, it is reported that the ipm of Sir Richard Yorke reported his marriage to Agnes, daughter of William Babthorpe, while there appears to be no Darcy daughter available.

https://archive.org/stream/genealogist3619selb#page/n247/mode/2up

Brad Verity made a post to this group in 2007 addressing the Darcy link, although he too seems unaware of the Northampton visitation that shows Richard married twice.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/soc.genealogy.medieval/dowsabel/soc.genealogy.medieval/02k3QLKe2FI/oTgCNc-x4YQJ

taf

[jhigg...@yahoo.com]

Todd is quite right in suggesting that the information in the Find-a-Grave entry for Sir Simon Harcourt (d. 1547) is not from the memorial itself. In fact it's a largely verbatim transcription of large parts of the text of the entry for Sir Simon Harcourt in the Richardson books - going back to the first edition of PA in 2004.

Buried in the usual mass of citations for the Harcourt entry in the Richardson work is a reference to the 1920 query in The Genealogist mentioned by Todd above. DR apparently overlooked - or chose to ignore - that it was J. W. Clay, the editor of Dugdale's visitation of Yorkshire (also cited by DR), who is quoted in that query as saying that "there is no Darcy marriage anywhere" and that the younger Sir Richard Yorke married (as far as is known) only Agnes, daughter of William Babthorpe. Clay was clearly correcting his previous work (and other previous Yorkshire visitations, which he mentions). This correction by Clay certainly should have been reflected in the text of the Richardson works. Or DR should at least have explained why he didn't take account of this correction by Clay.

[taf]

On Sunday, September 20, 2015 at 5:05:52 PM UTC-7, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:

> Buried in the usual mass of citations for the Harcourt entry in the
> Richardson work is a reference to the 1920 query in The Genealogist
> mentioned by Todd above. DR apparently overlooked - or chose to
> ignore - that it was J. W. Clay, the editor of Dugdale's visitation
> of Yorkshire (also cited by DR), who is quoted in that query as saying
> that "there is no Darcy marriage anywhere" and that the younger Sir
> Richard Yorke married (as far as is known) only Agnes, daughter of
> William Babthorpe. Clay was clearly correcting his previous work
> (and other previous Yorkshire visitations, which he mentions). This
> correction by Clay certainly should have been reflected in the text
> of the Richardson works. Or DR should at least have explained why he
> didn't take account of this correction by Clay.

I have to say, I am not entirely convinced by that query. The visitations are indeed somewhat late for the information in the relevant generation, and it wouldn't surprise me if they got 'improved'. However, the query as it stands is second-hand. I would feel better about it if we had it in Clay's own words, with some explanation. The thing is, he provides sufficient evidence, it would seem, that Richard married Agnes Babthorpe, but this need not necessarily imply that that he did not marry a Darcy.

Brad Verity pointed to the possible inheritance of a very unusual name, Dowsabel, which appears in the person of the wife of Thomas, Lord Darcy, and then also appears as a granddaughter of Sir Richard Yorke. Of course, it could have gotten there by some other route, for example from a godmother, and likewise it could be exactly because this name was found in both families that one of the 16th century heralds decided the wife had to be a Darcy, which would make the onomastic argument circular.

I don't think Richard's ipm has been published, but it may provide additional clues.

taf

[Paul Harrison]

Thanks for the Find-a-grave information - I hadn't looked carefully enough and didn't know the history of the site - and thanks for the thoughts on all this from both of you.

Paul