Hungarian Leslie origins

[taf]

The tradition of the Scottish Leslie family claims they descend from a Hungarian nobleman who accompanied Edgar Ætheling and his sister Margaret to Scotland from England after the Conquest. This has every appearance of being mythology, but is anyone aware of any scholars specifically addressing it?

taf

[Peter Stewart]

On 22-Nov-17 5:48 AM, taf wrote:
> The tradition of the Scottish Leslie family claims they descend from a Hungarian nobleman who accompanied Edgar Ætheling and his sister Margaret to Scotland from England after the Conquest. This has every appearance of being mythology, but is anyone aware of any scholars specifically addressing it?

The answer is probably none, though I can't be certain of this. It may
not be a very rewarding line of research - as far as I know, Hector
Boece claimed without proof or plausibility that five Scottish families
- Gifford, Maule, Borthwick, Fotheringham and Crichton, but not
including the Leslies - traced to ancestors who had come from Hungary
with Edgar. Then in the 16th century John Leslie, bishop of Ross, added
his own family to Boece's list of five, without providing evidence for
the origin of his alleged Hungarian ancestor Bartholomew Leslie. Whether
this was really a family tradition or just his own bid for an
exceptional line of Catholic antecedents is perhaps worthwhile to
pursue, but even to that limited question there is perhaps no definite
answer.

Peter Stewart

[Paulo Canedo]

According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_Drummond the Clan Drummond also claimed to be descendant of hungarian companions of Edgar.

[Wjhonson]

Specifically George, son of King Andrew. Although this is, of course, utter nonsense.

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[Peter Stewart]

On 22-Nov-17 9:22 AM, Paulo Canedo wrote:
> According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_Drummond the Clan Drummond also claimed to be descendant of hungarian companions of Edgar.

The Drummond claim has been treated as more plausible, but not on a very
sound basis. They are supposed to descend from a Hungarian named George
who in different versions of the story was either a brother or son of
King András I (reigned 1047-1060).

There is no good evidence for this - András had two recorded sons by his
wife, imposingly named Solomon and David, and obviously the name George
would have been a huge come-down from such Biblical pretensions.

However, according to the first printed history of Hungary (1473,
anonymous but perhaps written by its publisher), András had a son named
George by a concubine from Marót (now in Serbia). This was repeated by
János Thuróczy in his 'Chronica Hungarorum' written in the 1480s, and
has been accepted by many Hungarian historians without question (or much
interest for that matter). But it is an odd piece of information,
because as noted by Wertner we don't hear about any other bastards in
the Hungarian royal line before this or for more than 200 years
afterwards. Wertner sensibly remarked that the Drummond banking family
was well pleased to be able to exploit this story for its own purposes.

Peter Stewart

[Bernard Morgan]

I share this because it relates to the Drummond. In investigating a number of Scottish families that share a common Y-DNA branch under SNP L513, I came across the Drummonds. I would suggest they have a greater claim to being the mythical descendants of Coipre Rigfota than being Hungarian.


Thus:

The following two Ayrshire families can be found at the end of SNP A8 branch of Y-DNA emanating from SNP A3

1. Clan Kennedys
2. Clan Little.

Now in turn the SNP A3 branch contains the following sub-branches:
1. Clan Kennedys and Clan Little from Ayrshire
2. Clan Vans from Wigtownshire
3. Clan Glendinning from Dumfriesshire

Which in turn we have the sub-branches of L193:
1. The above A8 population from the lands of the Gall Gaidheil
2. Clan MacLean from the Isle of Mull
3. Clan Drummonds from the parish of Drymen within Lennoxshire
4. Clan Elliots from Roxburghshire

Going further back it can be found that they share a branch with the Maguires of Fermangh. And further back again with the O'Shea of Clare. And there they meet the founder legend of the three Cairpre, one of which went to Scotland and was conflated with the originator of the Dal Riata.

Regards,
Bernard.






________________________________
From: GEN-MEDIEVAL <gen-medieval-bounces+bernardmorgan=hotma...@rootsweb.com> on behalf of Peter Stewart <pss...@optusnet.com.au>
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 12:24 AM
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com

Subject: Re: Hungarian Leslie origins

On 22-Nov-17 9:22 AM, Paulo Canedo wrote:

> According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_Drummond the Clan Drummond also claimed to be descendant of hungarian companions of Edgar.

[https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/72/Clan_member_crest_badge_-_Clan_Drummond.gif]<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_Drummond>

Clan Drummond - Wikipedia<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_Drummond>
en.wikipedia.org
Sir Malcolm, the eldest great-grandson of the aforementioned Malcolm, obtained the clan home, Stobhall Castle, from his aunt Queen Margaret Drummond, David II of ...

The Drummond claim has been treated as more plausible, but not on a very
sound basis. They are supposed to descend from a Hungarian named George
who in different versions of the story was either a brother or son of
King András I (reigned 1047-1060).

There is no good evidence for this - András had two recorded sons by his
wife, imposingly named Solomon and David, and obviously the name George
would have been a huge come-down from such Biblical pretensions.

However, according to the first printed history of Hungary (1473,
anonymous but perhaps written by its publisher), András had a son named
George by a concubine from Marót (now in Serbia). This was repeated by
János Thuróczy in his 'Chronica Hungarorum' written in the 1480s, and
has been accepted by many Hungarian historians without question (or much
interest for that matter). But it is an odd piece of information,
because as noted by Wertner we don't hear about any other bastards in
the Hungarian royal line before this or for more than 200 years
afterwards. Wertner sensibly remarked that the Drummond banking family
was well pleased to be able to exploit this story for its own purposes.

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart]

On 22-Nov-17 11:24 AM, Peter Stewart wrote:
> On 22-Nov-17 9:22 AM, Paulo Canedo wrote:

>> According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_Drummond the Clan
>> Drummond also claimed to be descendant of hungarian companions of Edgar.
>

> The Drummond claim has been treated as more plausible, but not on a
> very sound basis. They are supposed to descend from a Hungarian named
> George who in different versions of the story was either a brother or
> son of King András I (reigned 1047-1060).
>
> There is no good evidence for this - András had two recorded sons by
> his wife, imposingly named Solomon and David, and obviously the name
> George would have been a huge come-down from such Biblical pretensions.
>
> However, according to the first printed history of Hungary (1473,
> anonymous but perhaps written by its publisher), András had a son
> named George by a concubine from Marót (now in Serbia).

I am told that 'villa Morouth' in this late source may refer not to
Marót (Morović) in Serbia that is approximately 400 kms south of
Budapest but to a closer place with a similar name, perhaps Hontmarót
(Hontianske Moravce) in Slovakia approximately 100 kms north of Budapest.

András had a fairly peripatetic existence in his youth, and he may have
taken concubines from a wide swathe of eastern Europe before or after he
became king. The notion that he sired George while married to his wife
Anastasia but before she gave birth to the first of his legitimate sons
is just a modern gloss on the 15th-century history, adding no value
whatsoever to its minimal credibility.

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart]

On 22-Nov-17 10:18 AM, Wjhonson wrote:
> Specifically George, son of King Andrew. Although this is, of course, utter nonsense.

The Drummonds apparently could not make up their minds which utter
nonsense they believed about their own ancestor: according to Balfour
Paul in *Scots Peerage* vol 7 (1910) p. 28 they credited a different but
equally silly story: 'MAURICE, a Hungarian of noble birth, who commanded
the Dromond, or ship in which Edgar the Atheling, his sister Margaret,
and other royal exiles were driven by tempest up the Firth of Forth, in
or about 1067, was, according to the tradition of the Drummond family,
their original ancestor in Scotland. He was, it is said, rewarded by
large gifts of lands chiefly in the shires of Dumbarton and Stirling,
and the district of Lennox. Such is the tradition, qualified by the
suggestion that the surname was adopted at a later date from the lands
of Drymen or Drummane in the Lennox, or from lands of a similar name in
Strathearn.'

I suppose if you run a bank doing business with subjects of the Hapsburg
empire you might clutch at any fictitious straw linking your family to
Hungary.

Peter Stewart

[wjhonson]

I can believe the idea that the captain of a ship that saved your life might be given large pieces of land as a reward.

I find it harder to believe that the captain was some kind of nobility. Did nobility typically become captains? Even illegitimate ones?

I suppose the male-line Drummonds have died out from this legendary ancestor? So Y-DNA testing wouldn't really answer any questions. And many living Drummond males would simply have picked up the name from a lord or a piece of land or something and so can't be used to prove this Hungarian ancestry.

[John Watson]

Hungary is a landlocked country. Is it likely that a Hungarian nobleman was a sea captain?

Regards,

John

[Peter Stewart]

No part of this story has any more credibility than that anyway - the
Drummond line is not documented before the mid-13th century, the idea
that their surname came from 'dromond' meaning ship is rubbish, and the
likelihood of rewarding a captain with large and widely separated tracts
of land merely for running his vessel into shelter from a storm is less
than vanishingly small. The British Isles would be entirely owned by
seamen if its rulers gave away such gushing tips hither and yon for
ordinary competence that happened to land visitors on their shores.

Peter Stewart

[Richard Carruthers]

In all this, wherein I am a mere onlooker, I am surprised that the
Leslie family didn't derive themselves from a Hungarian named László!
Or is that just to clever by half?;)

This one, after whom the name became popularised in régi Magyarország,
is perhaps just a tad late to be their royal stemfather, legitimate,
or otherwise:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladislaus_I_of_Hungary

Richard
West Vancouver (via the Zurowski lot baptised at Istensegits,
Bukovina, Austria-Hungary)

On 22/11/2017, Peter Stewart <pss...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
> On 23-Nov-17 3:28 AM, John Watson wrote:

> No part of this story has any more credibility than that anyway - the
> Drummond line is not documented before the mid-13th century, the idea
> that their surname came from 'dromond' meaning ship is rubbish, and the
> likelihood of rewarding a captain with large and widely separated tracts
> of land merely for running his vessel into shelter from a storm is less
> than vanishingly small. The British Isles would be entirely owned by
> seamen if its rulers gave away such gushing tips hither and yon for
> ordinary competence that happened to land visitors on their shores.
>
> Peter Stewart
>

[Peter Stewart]

On 23-Nov-17 11:52 AM, Richard Carruthers wrote:
> In all this, wherein I am a mere onlooker, I am surprised that the
> Leslie family didn't derive themselves from a Hungarian named László!
> Or is that just to clever by half?;)
>
> This one, after whom the name became popularised in régi Magyarország,
> is perhaps just a tad late to be their royal stemfather, legitimate,
> or otherwise:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladislaus_I_of_Hungary

This was not an option available in the mythical ether that the Leslie
claim drew from - it was piled on to the already incredible statement by
Hector Boece that five other Scottish families were descended from men
who accompanied Edgar from Hungary. There was no suggestion that any of
these fictional men belonged to the royal family: that nonsense was
unique to one strand of the Drummond romance, and there the only
identified candidate was Andras I's alleged bastard son George as
recorded in the late-15th century.

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart]

On 23-Nov-17 12:44 PM, Peter Stewart wrote:
> On 23-Nov-17 11:52 AM, Richard Carruthers wrote:
>> In all this, wherein I am a mere onlooker, I am surprised that the
>> Leslie family didn't derive themselves from a Hungarian named László!
>> Or is that just to clever by half?;)
>>
>> This one, after whom the name became popularised in régi Magyarország,
>> is perhaps just a tad late to be their royal stemfather, legitimate,
>> or otherwise:
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladislaus_I_of_Hungary
>
> This was not an option available in the mythical ether that the Leslie
> claim drew from - it was piled on to the already incredible statement
> by Hector Boece that five other Scottish families were descended from
> men who accompanied Edgar from Hungary. T

Anyone wishing to compare these versions can find the original (1526)
edition of Boece's text here:
https://archive.org/stream/scotorumhistoria00boec#page/533/mode/1up (fol
266v: "Aduenerant quoque nonnulli cum Margarita ex Hungaria, qui
posteris quoque suis nomina reliquere: Crythoun, Fothirgame, Giffhert,
Maul, Brothik, quae ad nos vsque peruenerunt").

The addition of the Leslie family to this list, and oddly changing
Margaret to Agatha, is in *De origine moribus et rebus gestis Scotorvm
libri decem* (Rome, 1578) by John Leslie, bishop of Ross, here:
https://books.google.com.au/books?id=cF1UAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA210 (p. 110:
"Venere etiam ex Vngaria cum Agatha complures, vt Crychtoun,
Fodringhanne, Giffert, Maulis, Brothik, & alii: inter quos Bartholomeus
Leslie, generis nobilitate animique insita magnitudine praestans").

Peter Stewart