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Robert de Ferrars, 1242
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sirjoh...@gmail.com
Oct 19, 2015, 10:19:05 AM10/19/15
to
Hello all, I'm doing some research into the Ferrars family, Earls of Derby in the 13th century, and have found this man:
'Adhuc de Crastino Sancti Martini
Pleas before the Justices of the Bench Mich Term 26-27 Henry III (1242)
1056. Northt' Walterus de Deneford optulit se quarto versus Henricum Gubion, Willelmum Lambert Robertum de Ferrars' Simonem Gubiun, Johannem Parcarium Johanem Gubiun Martinum de Stokes Ranulfum de Templo Robertum de Litered Ricardum filium Roberti de Pirie Robertum de Dilling Alanum et Robertum flios ejus Johanem Taylfer Walterum Ketel et Matheum Juvenum de placito quare cum equiis et armis ejecerunt predictum Walterum de j. carucata terre cum pertineciis in Jerdel, quam predictus Henricus eidem Waltero dimiserat ad terminum qui nondum preterit, et blada et bona ibidem inventa consumpserunt et asportaverunt contra pacem domini regis etc.
...
Et ideo omnes plegii in misericordia. Et preceptum est vicecomiti quod habeat corpora omnium a die pasche in xv. dies etc.'
This Robert is clearly of an earlier generation to the Robert who was the 6th Earl of Derby, born in 1239 - they seem to have shared a penchant for criminal activity. He might have been the later Robert's uncle, brother to William the 5th earl. Has anyone come across any further references to him?
Thanks!
David
'Adhuc de Crastino Sancti Martini
Pleas before the Justices of the Bench Mich Term 26-27 Henry III (1242)
1056. Northt' Walterus de Deneford optulit se quarto versus Henricum Gubion, Willelmum Lambert Robertum de Ferrars' Simonem Gubiun, Johannem Parcarium Johanem Gubiun Martinum de Stokes Ranulfum de Templo Robertum de Litered Ricardum filium Roberti de Pirie Robertum de Dilling Alanum et Robertum flios ejus Johanem Taylfer Walterum Ketel et Matheum Juvenum de placito quare cum equiis et armis ejecerunt predictum Walterum de j. carucata terre cum pertineciis in Jerdel, quam predictus Henricus eidem Waltero dimiserat ad terminum qui nondum preterit, et blada et bona ibidem inventa consumpserunt et asportaverunt contra pacem domini regis etc.
...
Et ideo omnes plegii in misericordia. Et preceptum est vicecomiti quod habeat corpora omnium a die pasche in xv. dies etc.'
This Robert is clearly of an earlier generation to the Robert who was the 6th Earl of Derby, born in 1239 - they seem to have shared a penchant for criminal activity. He might have been the later Robert's uncle, brother to William the 5th earl. Has anyone come across any further references to him?
Thanks!
David
Ken Rolston
Oct 29, 2015, 10:53:07 AM10/29/15
to
https://archive.org/stream/annalesmonastic02unkngoog#page/n177/mode/2up
An undated document by William, 5th earl, confirmed to the church and monks at Burton on Trent, a charter by his father William 4th earl, confirming a covenant & concord between Robert de Ferrers (1st or 2nd earl) and the church. Witnesses to the charter by William's father, 4th earl, included Henry de Ferrers and Robert de Ferrers.
Ref: Descriptive Catalogue of the Charters & Muniments belonging to the Marquis of Anglesay, in Collections for a History of Staffordshire, 1937.
This Robert is confirmed as brother to the earl in two charters of Tutbury Priory:
""... domini Willelmi comitis de Ferr' et domini Roberti fratris sui ..."
Ref: Saltman A.; The Cartulary of Tutbury Priory, ff143 & 144. HMSO 1962.
William 4th earl married Agnes, sister of Ranulph earl of Chester, and she produced sons William 5th earl and Thomas to whom she gave her estate of Chartley. I am not aware of other sons and in particular I have never seen a Robert definitely recognisable or defined as brother of the 5th earl.
The name of Robert was popular through several of the early de Ferrers generations. From the data that I have, possibly not complete:
Robert 2nd earl had sons William (3rd earl), Walcheline of Oakham, and 3 daughters.
William 3rd earl had issue William (4th earl), Robert (died 1225), Henry, Walcheline of Egginton, & 3 daughters.
William 4th earl had issue William (5th earl), Thomas of Chartley, and an unknown son killed at tournament in Lincoln 1217.
William 5th earl by his 1st wife had issue 7 daughters and by his 2nd wife had 2 sons, Robert (6th and last earl) & William (later 1st baron Ferrers of Groby).
From my listing, it remains possible that Robert who is cited in the Plea of 1242 could have been a son of the 4th earl, therefore brother of William, 5th earl, as this is the only generation with no Robert listed. However, it should be kept in mind that he could be a son of one of the other brothers de Ferrers', not born in the direct line of the earls, in which case he could easily be from the previous generation.
Ken.
Charlie McNett via
Dec 9, 2015, 7:45:18 PM12/9/15
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Dear Ken,
Thanks for the information on the Ferrers, especially the date on the
death of Robert, brother of William, Fourth Earl of Derby in 1225.
On 10/29/2015 10:53 AM, Ken Rolston via wrote:
"five sons, William, Knt. [5th Earl of Derby], Thomas, Knt., Hugh, Knt.,
Robert, and Ranulph (parson of St. Michael's on the Wyre, Lancashire)
and three daughters, Bertha, Agnes (wife of Richard de Montfitchet), and
_________". Richardson cites Baker Histories and Antiquities of
Northamptonshire 1 (1822-30), p. 123-4 for a pedigree of Chartley from
Dugdales, etc.:
William, Hugh of Bugbrook by a gift from his father, Robert, Thomas of
Chartley, and Berta. There is more info below cited by Richardson as well.
>> David,
>> Glad to hear an interest in Robert, the fourth son of William, Fourth
>> Earl of Derby. His descendants are outlined below, much from the
>> Sneyd-Kynnersley of Loxley papers at the Staffordshire Records Office:
>>
>> http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/browse/r/8883fbd3-9b83-43fe-bc40-a985360b06bb
>>
>> I used the English titles for them, Latin translations are mainly from
>> the Internet and are approximate. Notes on some later Kynnersley
>> generations may be found at:
>>
>> http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2014-08/1409364848
>>
>>
>> I am now looking at the next generaton, John Kynnardsley and Joane
>> Dethick, sister and heir of Richard Dethick.
>>
>>
>> Regards, Charlie
>>
>> *Generation 1*
>>
>> 1.Robert Ferrers He was born about 1206 and died in 1279 (Bruce B. Rognan PAF, see
http://mypages.allwest.com/~rognan/genealogy/pafg739.htm
>> Notes for Robert Ferrers:
>>
>> History and antiquities of Stafflordsire etc. Shaw, V 1, Tutbury, p. 39:
>> pedigree
lists William, Thomas, Hugo, and Robert.
>> Hospital of St. John of Jerusalem,Clerkenwell,NUM XIV, p.807 Confirmatio
>> Roberti filii Willielmi Comitis de Ferrariis de Ecclesia de Stebbynge
>> Ibid fol 218 a UNIVERSIS Christi fidelibus &c Robertus de Ferrariis
>> filius Willielmi comitis de Ferrariis salutem in Domino Noverit &c me
>> concessisse et hac praasenti carta mea confirmasse Deo et beataa Maria
>> et sancto Johanni Baptistse et beatis pauperibus sanctae domus
>> Hospitalis Jerusalem et fratribus ejusdem domus pro salute animaa meas
>> et antecessorum et successorum meorum donationem ecclesiae de Stebbynge
>> uam pater meus Willielmus comes de Ferrariis eisdem fratri us fecit Et
>> ut haac mea concessio et confirmatio rata et inconcussa permaneat
>> praesentem cartam sigilli mei appositione roboravi Hiis testibus
>> Willielmo de Fenariis filio Willielmi comitis de Ferrariis Henrico de
>> Aldithle Will de Harecurt Roberto de Campania &c n.d.
>>
>> Confirmation of Robert, son of William Earl de Ferrers, on the Church of
>> Stebbynge Ibid fol 218 by all Christians, etc. Robert de Ferrers, son of
>> William Earl Ferrers, the safety of the community should know, etc. I
>> have granted and this praasenti charter have confirmed to God and beataa
>> Mary and St. to the poor house of the Hospital of St. John of Jerusalem
>> and the blessed, Baptistse and is animated for the salvation of my
>> brethren of the same house of my ancestors and successors, and the
>> donation of the church of my father William, Earl of Ferrers, hich
>> Stebbynge and as soon as he did the same to his brother, U.S. haac my
>> grant, and confirmation of a charter of the present remain firm and
>> unbroken witnesses confirmed my seal of Fenariis William son of William
>> de Ferrers, Henry Earl of Aldithle Harecurt Will of Robert Champagne, etc
there is no date, the data is from a manuscript by Dr. C. Cotton which
appeared in Dugsdales' Monasticon Anglicanum 6(2) (1820). The names of
the other signors are of interest. William 5 was born about 1193
(Richardson), so Robert was born by, say, 1200. This gift occurs
before 1247 when Willliam 4 died. Henry, Earl of Aldithle or Audley
(1175-1246) was, in addition to many others, "Custodian of Chester and
Beeston Castle, 12 June 1237, on the extinction of the then earldom of
Chester" according to Complete Peerage I, 337. Ranulph, Earl of Chester
1181 to 1232 (CP, III, 167-8) was the brother of Agnes, wife of William
4 Earl of Derby.
Sir William Harcourt of Stanton Harcourt married Alice Noel in 1201 and
died 6 Apr 1223, see Leo van der Pas in genealogics.org. His second
son, Sir William, must have been born 1202 or later and is probably the
Will de Harecurt above.
The Battle Abbey I, 249 says of the last signer given, "This family was
seated in Kent during the twelfth century. Sir Robert de Canpania
acquired the manor of Newenham through his wife Julian, daughter and
heir of Fulk de Newenham ... ; and gave to his manor house its present
name of Champion’s Court. His son Sir Robert II was one of the Kentish
gentlemen that attended Coeur de Lion to the Holy Land and were knighted
at the siege of Acre." In addition, "The Manor of Harty, otherwise
Saye's court, was in the reign of king Henry III, part of the
possessions of the family of Champion, who wrote themselves in Latin, De
Campania, and were seated at Champions court, in Newnham. Robert de
Campania held this manor in the above reign [1216-1272], as half a
knights see, of John de St. John (from Book of Knights Fees in the
Exchequer." See
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/survey-kent/vol6/pp276-283
>> D(W)1733/A/2/2 n.d.
>> Gift [probably a later copy] by Robert de Ferrers lord of Loxley to
>> Peter son of Geoffrey his free man etc.
>>
>> D(W)1733/A/2/3 mid 13th cent
>> Gift by Robert de Ferr[ers] lord of Loxley to John son of Julian de
>> Kingstone etc.
>>
>> D(W)1733/A/2/4 [Ed.I] 1272-1307
>> Gift by Robert de Ferr[ers] of Loxley to Alan son of Roger le Teler etc.
>>
>> D(W)1733/A/2/64 [c.1270-80]
>> Grant by Robert de Ferrars, son and heir of William de Ferrars late earl
>> of Derby to Roger de Verney and his heirs etc.
>>
>> Robert Ferrers had the following children:
>>
>> 2.i.Thomas de Ferrars
>>
>>
>> ii.Margaret Ferrers
>>
>> Notes for Margaret Ferrers: D(W)1733/A/2/7 [late Ed.I] 1300-7:
>> Gift by Thomas de Ferrars lord of Loxley to William de Caverswall for
>> homage and service of ten acres of land on the heath of Westewode lying
>> next to the land of Margaret his sister, etc
>>
>> D(W)1733/A/2/8 [late Ed.I]
>> Gift by Thomas de ferr[ers] lord of Loxley to Margaret Ferr[ers] his
>> daughter ...[near] the land he gave his sister Margaret ... : rent of a penny
>>
>>
>> *Generation 2*
>>
>> 2.Thomas Ferrers (Robert1)
>>
>> Notes for Thomas Ferrers:
>>
>> Visitation of Warwickshire p.397: Tho. de Ferrers Du de Loxley in Com.
>> Staff. 4EI 1276 Note: Visitation has two Roberts and oneThomas before
>> Joane, it should be one Robert and two Thomas, This is her grandfather.
>>
>> D(W)1733/A/2/5 [Ed.I]
>> Gift by Thomas de Ferr[ers] lord of Loxley to Roger de Verney parson of
>> the church of Blisefeld [Blithfield] and his heirs etc.
>>
>> D(W)1733/A/2/6 [Ed.I]
>> Gift by Thomas de Ferrers lord of Loxley to Roger de Wernay junior clerk
>> his heirs and assigns etc.
>>
>> D(W)1733/A/2/7 [late Ed.I] 1300-7:
>> Gift by Thomas de Ferrars lord of Loxley to William de Caverswall for
>> homage and service of ten acres of land on the heath of Westewode lying
>> next to the land of Margaret his sister etc..
>>
>> D(W)1733/A/2/8 [late Ed.I]
>> Gift by Thomas de ferr[ers] lord of Loxley to Margaret Ferr[ers] his
>> daughter ... [near] the land he gave his sister Margaret ... : rent of a
>> penny etc.
>>
>> D(W)1733/A/2/9 [late Ed.I]:
>> Gift by Thomas de Ferar of Loxley to Thomas de Loxley and Alice his wife
>> for their homage and service etc.
>>
>> D(W)1733/A/2/10 [late Ed.I]
>> Gift by Thomas de Ferrars lord of Loxley to William Gamul for homage and
>> service
>>
>> D(W)1733/A/2/71 [Ed.]
>> Gift by Roger son of Robert de Gaywode to William Faber of Kingstone ....
>> Witnesses: Lord Thomas de F[er]rar[s] lord of Loxley, Roger de V[er]nay etc.
>> Note: Thomas Sr. gave to Vernay above
>>
>> Chetwynd Cartulary from Collections for a History of Staffordshire V.
>> 12. 280.
>> Fine levied 56 H. Ill [1272] between Philip de Chetwynde and Isabella,
>> his wife, and Thomas de Ferrars, regarding the diversion of the stream
>> ofLocksley.
>>
>> 24. Hec est finalis concordia facta in Curia domini Regis apud
>> Lycchefeld a die Sanctae Trinitatis in quindecim dies anno regni Regis
>> Henrici filii Regis Johannis quinquagesimo sexto corarn Radulpho de
>> Hengham, Henrico de Monteforti, Thoma Trevet et Waltero de Hopton
>> Justiciariis Itinerantibus, etc., inter Philippum de Chetwynd et
>> Isabellam uxorem suam ejus querentes, et Thomam de Ferrariis de
>> Lockesleye, de hoc quod idem Thomas permittat ipsos Philippum et
>> Isabellam divertcre cursurn cujusdem aquae in Lockesleye in debitum et
>> antiquum cursum suum, et unde placitum fuit inter eos in eadem curia,
>> scilicet quod predicti Philippus et Isabella concesserunt pro se et
>> heredibus ipsius Isabellas quod predictus Thomas et heredes sui habeant
>> totum cursum predicta e aquas usque ad molendimnn suum de Lockesleye
>> sine contradictione vel impedimento predictorum Philippi et Isabellae et
>> heredum ipsius Isabellae imperpetuum, et preterea, etc. Et pro hac
>> concessione fine, et concordia, idem Thomas concessit pro se et
>> heredibus suis, quod ipsi decetero reddent singulis annis predictis
>> Philippo et Isabellae et heredibus ipsius Isabellas quatuordecim solidos
>> sterlingorum, etc.*
>> • Lockesleye and Isabella's manor of Gratwich are partly coterminous.
>>
>> Fine levied 56 H. Ill between Philip de Chetwynde and Isabella, his
>> wife, and Thomas de Ferrars, regarding the diversion of the stream
>> ofLocksley. 24. This is the final concord made in the court of the king
>> to Lycchefeld than fifteen days from the day of the Holy Trinity in the
>> fifty-sixth year of the reign of King Henry son of King John corarn
>> Ralph de Hengham, Henry de Montfort, and Sir Walter de Hopton Trevet
>> Justices itinerant, Thomas, etc., Chetwynd and Isabel his wife,
>> plaintiffs, of the differences between Philip, and Thomas de Ferrars of
>> Lockesley part of that money to allow themselves that the same Thomas,
>> Philip and Isabella divertcre cursurn cujusdem of water in the Lockesley
>> on the debt and the ancient of his course, he was a plea between them in
>> the same court, and from where , namely, that the aforesaid Philip and
>> Isabella Isabella have granted for themselves and the heirs of the
>> aforesaid that the aforesaid Thomas and his heirs shall have the whole
>> process leading to the out of the waters, as far Lockesley without
>> opposition or hindrance by the aforesaid molendimnn husband out of the
>> heirs of the same to Isabella, of Philip and Isabella and for ever, and,
>> in addition, etc. . And for this, the end of the concession, and is the
>> unity, the same Thomas has granted for himself and his heirs, that they
>> shall give, every year, in future and the heirs of the aforesaid Philip
>> and Isabella Isabella fourteen shillings sterling, etc
>>
>> Thomas Ferrers had the following children:
>>
>> 3.i. Thomas Ferrers: He died after 1299. He married (1) Isabel N. He
>> married (2) Cecilia N.
>>
>> ii.Margaret Ferrers
>>
>> Notes for Margaret Ferrers: D(W)1733/A/2/8 [late Ed.I]
>> Gift by Thomas de ferr[ers] lord of Loxley to Margaret Ferr[ers] his
>> daughter ...[near] the land he gave his sister Margaret ... : rent of a penny etc. **
>>
>> **Generation*3*
>>
>> Thomas3 Ferrers (Thomas2, Robert1). He died after 1299. He married (1)
>> Isabel N. He married (2) Cecilia N.
Note for Isabel, first wife:
D(W)1733/A/4/30 1299
Gift by Alexander son of Alexander de la Lee to Thomas de Ferrars lord
of Loxley and Isabel his wife ... Lord Robert de Dethek etc.
For his second wife, Cecilia:
"Moreover I will and grant that the third part of the aforesaid moiety
of manor which Ranulph de Snitterton and Cecilia his wife hold in the
name of the dower of the said Cecilia of the dotation of Thomas de
Ferrars once her husband …" from Alsop and Other Charters, W. R.
Holland, #14, p. 26-8, which was a gift from Richard de Dethek to his
daughter Joanna and John Kynardeseye in 1327.
>> Notes for Thomas Ferrers:
>>
>> D(W)1733/A/2/11 [late Ed.I]:
>> Gift and quitclaim by Robert de Mulewych to Thomas son of Thomas de
>> Ferr[ers], lord of Loxley, of 10 d. annual rent etc
>>
>> D(W)1733/A/2/13 1295/6
>> Gift by Thomas son of Thomas de Ferariis of Loxley to Robert le Venour
>> of Uttoxeter etc.
>>
>> D(W)1733/A/2/14 1298
>> Quitclaim by Thomas son of Thomas de Ferrars to Robert of Uttoxeter etc.
>>
>> D(W)1733/A/2/17 [Ed.I/II] ca. 1307....Witnesses: Thomas de Ferrers jr, lord of Loxley etc
>>
>> D(W)1733/A/4/30 1299
>> Gift by Alexander son of Alexander de la Lee to Thomas de Ferrars lord
>> of Loxley and Isabel his wife ... Lord Robert de Dethek etc.
>> Note: witness from time of Jr.
>>
>> Thomas Ferrers and Isabel N had the following children:
>>
>> 4.i. Joane Ferrers. She married John de Kynardesley, son of John de
>> Kynardesley.
>>
>> ii. Thomas Ferrers:
>> He died before 1322.
>>
>> Notes for Thomas Ferrers:
>>
>> Visitation of Warwickshire, p. 397 sister was heir, ob. sp 14E1 (1282)
>> Note: date is very wrong.
>>
>> John de Calewyth son of Richard de Calewyth de Calewyth … states that
>> Thomas, son of Thomas de Ferers. died seised under age. of half the
>> manor of Great Loxley. … They have wrongly maintained John, son of
>> Thomas de Ferers of Loxtey. who is not the heir of the whole blood but
>> the son of another mother. The wardship ought to be seised into the
>> king’s hand because of the minorty of John. son of Richard de Calewyth.
>> who is Thomas’ kinsman and heir of the whole blood, and who is seventeen
>> years old. He requests a remedy … One of a collection of petitions
>> published on pages 387ff of Rol. Pad. V. I which all seem to date from
>> around 1322. Etc. Translation by National Archive.
Thomas was the son of Isabel, who was apparently related to John de
Calewyth, while John Ferrers was the son of Cecilia. The Manor of Great
Loxley went to Joanna instead, see below.
>> iii. Alicia Ferrers
>> She married Thomas Rile.
>>
>> Notes for Alicia Ferrers: Visitation of Warwickshire, p. 397
>>
>> Notes for Thomas Rile:
>>
>> Visitation of Warwickshire, p. 397 de Loxley
>>
>> Thomas Ferrers and Cecilia N had the following child:
>>
>> iv. John Fedders.
>>
>> *Generation 4*
>>
>> 4.Joane Ferrers, Thomas3, Thomas2, Robert1.
>> She married John de Kynardesley, son of John de Kynardesley.
>>
>> Notes for Joane Ferrers: Visitation of Warwickshire, p. 397
>>
>> Kynnersley pedigree: Joane sister and heir of Thomas fferrares de Loxley
>>
>> Notes for John de Kynardesley:
>>
>> kynardesley pedigree, 1897: de Loxley in com. Staff.
>>
>> Calwech finally give up the suit over the manors:
>> D(W)1733/A/2/19 1331/2 Quitclaim by John son of Richard de Calwech to
>> John de Kynardeseye lord of Loxley of the manors of Loxley and Lee,
>> Derbyshire, etc.
Hope to hear of any comments, does Richardson have any more information
about Robert's relationship to the Earl of Derby? Charlie
---
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Thanks for the information on the Ferrers, especially the date on the
death of Robert, brother of William, Fourth Earl of Derby in 1225.
On 10/29/2015 10:53 AM, Ken Rolston via wrote:
> On Monday, 19 October 2015 15:19:05 UTC+1,sirjoh...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Hello all, I'm doing some research into the Ferrars family, Earls of Derby in the 13th century, and have found this man:
>>
>> 'Adhuc de Crastino Sancti Martini
>>
>> Pleas before the Justices of the Bench Mich Term 26-27 Henry III (1242)
>>
>> 1056. Northt' Walterus de Deneford optulit se quarto versus Henricum Gubion, Willelmum Lambert Robertum de Ferrars' Simonem Gubiun, Johannem Parcarium Johanem Gubiun Martinum de Stokes Ranulfum de Templo Robertum de Litered Ricardum filium Roberti de Pirie Robertum de Dilling Alanum et Robertum flios ejus Johanem Taylfer Walterum Ketel et Matheum Juvenum de placito quare cum equiis et armis ejecerunt predictum Walterum de j. carucata terre cum pertineciis in Jerdel, quam predictus Henricus eidem Waltero dimiserat ad terminum qui nondum preterit, et blada et bona ibidem inventa consumpserunt et asportaverunt contra pacem domini regis etc.
>>
>> ...
>>
>> Et ideo omnes plegii in misericordia. Et preceptum est vicecomiti quod habeat corpora omnium a die pasche in xv. dies etc.'
>>
>> This Robert is clearly of an earlier generation to the Robert who was the 6th Earl of Derby, born in 1239 - they seem to have shared a penchant for criminal activity. He might have been the later Robert's uncle, brother to William the 5th earl. Has anyone come across any further references to him?
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> David
> It's a long time since I was investigating de Ferrers, my notes indicate that the earlier William, 4th earl, had brothers Robert and Henry. This William was confirmed earl of Derby by King John in 1199 and was one of the barons who witnessed Magna Carta, then again in 1236 when King Henry reconfirmed Magna Carta, earl William along with his son William, later 5th earl, again witnessed the charter. According to the Annales de Dunstaplia, Robert de Ferrers died 1225. This was surely the brother of William 4th earl, who as earl died Oct 1247.
> https://archive.org/stream/annalesmonastic02unkngoog#page/n177/mode/2up
>
> An undated document by William, 5th earl, confirmed to the church and monks at Burton on Trent, a charter by his father William 4th earl, confirming a covenant & concord between Robert de Ferrers (1st or 2nd earl) and the church. Witnesses to the charter by William's father, 4th earl, included Henry de Ferrers and Robert de Ferrers.
> Ref: Descriptive Catalogue of the Charters & Muniments belonging to the Marquis of Anglesay, in Collections for a History of Staffordshire, 1937.
> This Robert is confirmed as brother to the earl in two charters of Tutbury Priory:
> ""... domini Willelmi comitis de Ferr' et domini Roberti fratris sui ..."
> Ref: Saltman A.; The Cartulary of Tutbury Priory, ff143 & 144. HMSO 1962.
>
> William 4th earl married Agnes, sister of Ranulph earl of Chester, and she produced sons William 5th earl and Thomas to whom she gave her estate of Chartley. I am not aware of other sons and in particular I have never seen a Robert definitely recognisable or defined as brother of the 5th earl.
Douglas Richardson, in Royal Ancestry V. II, p. 560 says:
>> Hello all, I'm doing some research into the Ferrars family, Earls of Derby in the 13th century, and have found this man:
>>
>> 'Adhuc de Crastino Sancti Martini
>>
>> Pleas before the Justices of the Bench Mich Term 26-27 Henry III (1242)
>>
>> 1056. Northt' Walterus de Deneford optulit se quarto versus Henricum Gubion, Willelmum Lambert Robertum de Ferrars' Simonem Gubiun, Johannem Parcarium Johanem Gubiun Martinum de Stokes Ranulfum de Templo Robertum de Litered Ricardum filium Roberti de Pirie Robertum de Dilling Alanum et Robertum flios ejus Johanem Taylfer Walterum Ketel et Matheum Juvenum de placito quare cum equiis et armis ejecerunt predictum Walterum de j. carucata terre cum pertineciis in Jerdel, quam predictus Henricus eidem Waltero dimiserat ad terminum qui nondum preterit, et blada et bona ibidem inventa consumpserunt et asportaverunt contra pacem domini regis etc.
>>
>> ...
>>
>> Et ideo omnes plegii in misericordia. Et preceptum est vicecomiti quod habeat corpora omnium a die pasche in xv. dies etc.'
>>
>> This Robert is clearly of an earlier generation to the Robert who was the 6th Earl of Derby, born in 1239 - they seem to have shared a penchant for criminal activity. He might have been the later Robert's uncle, brother to William the 5th earl. Has anyone come across any further references to him?
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> David
> It's a long time since I was investigating de Ferrers, my notes indicate that the earlier William, 4th earl, had brothers Robert and Henry. This William was confirmed earl of Derby by King John in 1199 and was one of the barons who witnessed Magna Carta, then again in 1236 when King Henry reconfirmed Magna Carta, earl William along with his son William, later 5th earl, again witnessed the charter. According to the Annales de Dunstaplia, Robert de Ferrers died 1225. This was surely the brother of William 4th earl, who as earl died Oct 1247.
> https://archive.org/stream/annalesmonastic02unkngoog#page/n177/mode/2up
>
> An undated document by William, 5th earl, confirmed to the church and monks at Burton on Trent, a charter by his father William 4th earl, confirming a covenant & concord between Robert de Ferrers (1st or 2nd earl) and the church. Witnesses to the charter by William's father, 4th earl, included Henry de Ferrers and Robert de Ferrers.
> Ref: Descriptive Catalogue of the Charters & Muniments belonging to the Marquis of Anglesay, in Collections for a History of Staffordshire, 1937.
> This Robert is confirmed as brother to the earl in two charters of Tutbury Priory:
> ""... domini Willelmi comitis de Ferr' et domini Roberti fratris sui ..."
> Ref: Saltman A.; The Cartulary of Tutbury Priory, ff143 & 144. HMSO 1962.
>
> William 4th earl married Agnes, sister of Ranulph earl of Chester, and she produced sons William 5th earl and Thomas to whom she gave her estate of Chartley. I am not aware of other sons and in particular I have never seen a Robert definitely recognisable or defined as brother of the 5th earl.
"five sons, William, Knt. [5th Earl of Derby], Thomas, Knt., Hugh, Knt.,
Robert, and Ranulph (parson of St. Michael's on the Wyre, Lancashire)
and three daughters, Bertha, Agnes (wife of Richard de Montfitchet), and
_________". Richardson cites Baker Histories and Antiquities of
Northamptonshire 1 (1822-30), p. 123-4 for a pedigree of Chartley from
Dugdales, etc.:
William, Hugh of Bugbrook by a gift from his father, Robert, Thomas of
Chartley, and Berta. There is more info below cited by Richardson as well.
> The name of Robert was popular through several of the early de Ferrers generations. From the data that I have, possibly not complete:
> Robert 2nd earl had sons William (3rd earl), Walcheline of Oakham, and 3 daughters.
> William 3rd earl had issue William (4th earl), Robert (died 1225), Henry, Walcheline of Egginton, & 3 daughters.
> William 4th earl had issue William (5th earl), Thomas of Chartley, and an unknown son killed at tournament in Lincoln 1217.
> William 5th earl by his 1st wife had issue 7 daughters and by his 2nd wife had 2 sons, Robert (6th and last earl) & William (later 1st baron Ferrers of Groby).
>
> >From my listing, it remains possible that Robert who is cited in the Plea of 1242 could have been a son of the 4th earl, therefore brother of William, 5th earl, as this is the only generation with no Robert listed. However, it should be kept in mind that he could be a son of one of the other brothers de Ferrers', not born in the direct line of the earls, in which case he could easily be from the previous generation.
>
> Ken.
>
> On 10/27/2015 3:49 PM, Charlie McNett via wrote:
> Robert 2nd earl had sons William (3rd earl), Walcheline of Oakham, and 3 daughters.
> William 3rd earl had issue William (4th earl), Robert (died 1225), Henry, Walcheline of Egginton, & 3 daughters.
> William 4th earl had issue William (5th earl), Thomas of Chartley, and an unknown son killed at tournament in Lincoln 1217.
> William 5th earl by his 1st wife had issue 7 daughters and by his 2nd wife had 2 sons, Robert (6th and last earl) & William (later 1st baron Ferrers of Groby).
>
> >From my listing, it remains possible that Robert who is cited in the Plea of 1242 could have been a son of the 4th earl, therefore brother of William, 5th earl, as this is the only generation with no Robert listed. However, it should be kept in mind that he could be a son of one of the other brothers de Ferrers', not born in the direct line of the earls, in which case he could easily be from the previous generation.
>
> Ken.
>
>> David,
>> Glad to hear an interest in Robert, the fourth son of William, Fourth
>> Earl of Derby. His descendants are outlined below, much from the
>> Sneyd-Kynnersley of Loxley papers at the Staffordshire Records Office:
>>
>> http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/browse/r/8883fbd3-9b83-43fe-bc40-a985360b06bb
>>
>> I used the English titles for them, Latin translations are mainly from
>> the Internet and are approximate. Notes on some later Kynnersley
>> generations may be found at:
>>
>> http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2014-08/1409364848
>>
>>
>> I am now looking at the next generaton, John Kynnardsley and Joane
>> Dethick, sister and heir of Richard Dethick.
>>
>>
>> Regards, Charlie
>>
>> *Generation 1*
>>
>> 1.Robert Ferrers He was born about 1206 and died in 1279 (Bruce B. Rognan PAF, see
http://mypages.allwest.com/~rognan/genealogy/pafg739.htm
>> Notes for Robert Ferrers:
>>
>> History and antiquities of Stafflordsire etc. Shaw, V 1, Tutbury, p. 39:
>> pedigree
lists William, Thomas, Hugo, and Robert.
>> Hospital of St. John of Jerusalem,Clerkenwell,NUM XIV, p.807 Confirmatio
>> Roberti filii Willielmi Comitis de Ferrariis de Ecclesia de Stebbynge
>> Ibid fol 218 a UNIVERSIS Christi fidelibus &c Robertus de Ferrariis
>> filius Willielmi comitis de Ferrariis salutem in Domino Noverit &c me
>> concessisse et hac praasenti carta mea confirmasse Deo et beataa Maria
>> et sancto Johanni Baptistse et beatis pauperibus sanctae domus
>> Hospitalis Jerusalem et fratribus ejusdem domus pro salute animaa meas
>> et antecessorum et successorum meorum donationem ecclesiae de Stebbynge
>> uam pater meus Willielmus comes de Ferrariis eisdem fratri us fecit Et
>> ut haac mea concessio et confirmatio rata et inconcussa permaneat
>> praesentem cartam sigilli mei appositione roboravi Hiis testibus
>> Willielmo de Fenariis filio Willielmi comitis de Ferrariis Henrico de
>> Aldithle Will de Harecurt Roberto de Campania &c n.d.
>>
>> Confirmation of Robert, son of William Earl de Ferrers, on the Church of
>> Stebbynge Ibid fol 218 by all Christians, etc. Robert de Ferrers, son of
>> William Earl Ferrers, the safety of the community should know, etc. I
>> have granted and this praasenti charter have confirmed to God and beataa
>> Mary and St. to the poor house of the Hospital of St. John of Jerusalem
>> and the blessed, Baptistse and is animated for the salvation of my
>> brethren of the same house of my ancestors and successors, and the
>> donation of the church of my father William, Earl of Ferrers, hich
>> Stebbynge and as soon as he did the same to his brother, U.S. haac my
>> grant, and confirmation of a charter of the present remain firm and
>> unbroken witnesses confirmed my seal of Fenariis William son of William
>> de Ferrers, Henry Earl of Aldithle Harecurt Will of Robert Champagne, etc
there is no date, the data is from a manuscript by Dr. C. Cotton which
appeared in Dugsdales' Monasticon Anglicanum 6(2) (1820). The names of
the other signors are of interest. William 5 was born about 1193
(Richardson), so Robert was born by, say, 1200. This gift occurs
before 1247 when Willliam 4 died. Henry, Earl of Aldithle or Audley
(1175-1246) was, in addition to many others, "Custodian of Chester and
Beeston Castle, 12 June 1237, on the extinction of the then earldom of
Chester" according to Complete Peerage I, 337. Ranulph, Earl of Chester
1181 to 1232 (CP, III, 167-8) was the brother of Agnes, wife of William
4 Earl of Derby.
Sir William Harcourt of Stanton Harcourt married Alice Noel in 1201 and
died 6 Apr 1223, see Leo van der Pas in genealogics.org. His second
son, Sir William, must have been born 1202 or later and is probably the
Will de Harecurt above.
The Battle Abbey I, 249 says of the last signer given, "This family was
seated in Kent during the twelfth century. Sir Robert de Canpania
acquired the manor of Newenham through his wife Julian, daughter and
heir of Fulk de Newenham ... ; and gave to his manor house its present
name of Champion’s Court. His son Sir Robert II was one of the Kentish
gentlemen that attended Coeur de Lion to the Holy Land and were knighted
at the siege of Acre." In addition, "The Manor of Harty, otherwise
Saye's court, was in the reign of king Henry III, part of the
possessions of the family of Champion, who wrote themselves in Latin, De
Campania, and were seated at Champions court, in Newnham. Robert de
Campania held this manor in the above reign [1216-1272], as half a
knights see, of John de St. John (from Book of Knights Fees in the
Exchequer." See
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/survey-kent/vol6/pp276-283
>> D(W)1733/A/2/2 n.d.
>> Gift [probably a later copy] by Robert de Ferrers lord of Loxley to
>> Peter son of Geoffrey his free man etc.
>>
>> D(W)1733/A/2/3 mid 13th cent
>> Gift by Robert de Ferr[ers] lord of Loxley to John son of Julian de
>> Kingstone etc.
>>
>> D(W)1733/A/2/4 [Ed.I] 1272-1307
>> Gift by Robert de Ferr[ers] of Loxley to Alan son of Roger le Teler etc.
>>
>> D(W)1733/A/2/64 [c.1270-80]
>> Grant by Robert de Ferrars, son and heir of William de Ferrars late earl
>> of Derby to Roger de Verney and his heirs etc.
>>
>> Robert Ferrers had the following children:
>>
>> 2.i.Thomas de Ferrars
>>
>>
>> ii.Margaret Ferrers
>>
>> Notes for Margaret Ferrers: D(W)1733/A/2/7 [late Ed.I] 1300-7:
>> Gift by Thomas de Ferrars lord of Loxley to William de Caverswall for
>> homage and service of ten acres of land on the heath of Westewode lying
>> next to the land of Margaret his sister, etc
>>
>> D(W)1733/A/2/8 [late Ed.I]
>> Gift by Thomas de ferr[ers] lord of Loxley to Margaret Ferr[ers] his
>> daughter ...[near] the land he gave his sister Margaret ... : rent of a penny
>>
>>
>> *Generation 2*
>>
>> 2.Thomas Ferrers (Robert1)
>>
>> Notes for Thomas Ferrers:
>>
>> Visitation of Warwickshire p.397: Tho. de Ferrers Du de Loxley in Com.
>> Staff. 4EI 1276 Note: Visitation has two Roberts and oneThomas before
>> Joane, it should be one Robert and two Thomas, This is her grandfather.
>>
>> D(W)1733/A/2/5 [Ed.I]
>> Gift by Thomas de Ferr[ers] lord of Loxley to Roger de Verney parson of
>> the church of Blisefeld [Blithfield] and his heirs etc.
>>
>> D(W)1733/A/2/6 [Ed.I]
>> Gift by Thomas de Ferrers lord of Loxley to Roger de Wernay junior clerk
>> his heirs and assigns etc.
>>
>> D(W)1733/A/2/7 [late Ed.I] 1300-7:
>> Gift by Thomas de Ferrars lord of Loxley to William de Caverswall for
>> homage and service of ten acres of land on the heath of Westewode lying
>> next to the land of Margaret his sister etc..
>>
>> D(W)1733/A/2/8 [late Ed.I]
>> Gift by Thomas de ferr[ers] lord of Loxley to Margaret Ferr[ers] his
>> daughter ... [near] the land he gave his sister Margaret ... : rent of a
>> penny etc.
>>
>> D(W)1733/A/2/9 [late Ed.I]:
>> Gift by Thomas de Ferar of Loxley to Thomas de Loxley and Alice his wife
>> for their homage and service etc.
>>
>> D(W)1733/A/2/10 [late Ed.I]
>> Gift by Thomas de Ferrars lord of Loxley to William Gamul for homage and
>> service
>>
>> D(W)1733/A/2/71 [Ed.]
>> Gift by Roger son of Robert de Gaywode to William Faber of Kingstone ....
>> Witnesses: Lord Thomas de F[er]rar[s] lord of Loxley, Roger de V[er]nay etc.
>> Note: Thomas Sr. gave to Vernay above
>>
>> Chetwynd Cartulary from Collections for a History of Staffordshire V.
>> 12. 280.
>> Fine levied 56 H. Ill [1272] between Philip de Chetwynde and Isabella,
>> his wife, and Thomas de Ferrars, regarding the diversion of the stream
>> ofLocksley.
>>
>> 24. Hec est finalis concordia facta in Curia domini Regis apud
>> Lycchefeld a die Sanctae Trinitatis in quindecim dies anno regni Regis
>> Henrici filii Regis Johannis quinquagesimo sexto corarn Radulpho de
>> Hengham, Henrico de Monteforti, Thoma Trevet et Waltero de Hopton
>> Justiciariis Itinerantibus, etc., inter Philippum de Chetwynd et
>> Isabellam uxorem suam ejus querentes, et Thomam de Ferrariis de
>> Lockesleye, de hoc quod idem Thomas permittat ipsos Philippum et
>> Isabellam divertcre cursurn cujusdem aquae in Lockesleye in debitum et
>> antiquum cursum suum, et unde placitum fuit inter eos in eadem curia,
>> scilicet quod predicti Philippus et Isabella concesserunt pro se et
>> heredibus ipsius Isabellas quod predictus Thomas et heredes sui habeant
>> totum cursum predicta e aquas usque ad molendimnn suum de Lockesleye
>> sine contradictione vel impedimento predictorum Philippi et Isabellae et
>> heredum ipsius Isabellae imperpetuum, et preterea, etc. Et pro hac
>> concessione fine, et concordia, idem Thomas concessit pro se et
>> heredibus suis, quod ipsi decetero reddent singulis annis predictis
>> Philippo et Isabellae et heredibus ipsius Isabellas quatuordecim solidos
>> sterlingorum, etc.*
>> • Lockesleye and Isabella's manor of Gratwich are partly coterminous.
>>
>> Fine levied 56 H. Ill between Philip de Chetwynde and Isabella, his
>> wife, and Thomas de Ferrars, regarding the diversion of the stream
>> ofLocksley. 24. This is the final concord made in the court of the king
>> to Lycchefeld than fifteen days from the day of the Holy Trinity in the
>> fifty-sixth year of the reign of King Henry son of King John corarn
>> Ralph de Hengham, Henry de Montfort, and Sir Walter de Hopton Trevet
>> Justices itinerant, Thomas, etc., Chetwynd and Isabel his wife,
>> plaintiffs, of the differences between Philip, and Thomas de Ferrars of
>> Lockesley part of that money to allow themselves that the same Thomas,
>> Philip and Isabella divertcre cursurn cujusdem of water in the Lockesley
>> on the debt and the ancient of his course, he was a plea between them in
>> the same court, and from where , namely, that the aforesaid Philip and
>> Isabella Isabella have granted for themselves and the heirs of the
>> aforesaid that the aforesaid Thomas and his heirs shall have the whole
>> process leading to the out of the waters, as far Lockesley without
>> opposition or hindrance by the aforesaid molendimnn husband out of the
>> heirs of the same to Isabella, of Philip and Isabella and for ever, and,
>> in addition, etc. . And for this, the end of the concession, and is the
>> unity, the same Thomas has granted for himself and his heirs, that they
>> shall give, every year, in future and the heirs of the aforesaid Philip
>> and Isabella Isabella fourteen shillings sterling, etc
>>
>> Thomas Ferrers had the following children:
>>
>> 3.i. Thomas Ferrers: He died after 1299. He married (1) Isabel N. He
>> married (2) Cecilia N.
>>
>> ii.Margaret Ferrers
>>
>> Notes for Margaret Ferrers: D(W)1733/A/2/8 [late Ed.I]
>> Gift by Thomas de ferr[ers] lord of Loxley to Margaret Ferr[ers] his
>> daughter ...[near] the land he gave his sister Margaret ... : rent of a penny etc. **
>>
>> **Generation*3*
>>
>> Thomas3 Ferrers (Thomas2, Robert1). He died after 1299. He married (1)
>> Isabel N. He married (2) Cecilia N.
Note for Isabel, first wife:
D(W)1733/A/4/30 1299
Gift by Alexander son of Alexander de la Lee to Thomas de Ferrars lord
of Loxley and Isabel his wife ... Lord Robert de Dethek etc.
For his second wife, Cecilia:
"Moreover I will and grant that the third part of the aforesaid moiety
of manor which Ranulph de Snitterton and Cecilia his wife hold in the
name of the dower of the said Cecilia of the dotation of Thomas de
Ferrars once her husband …" from Alsop and Other Charters, W. R.
Holland, #14, p. 26-8, which was a gift from Richard de Dethek to his
daughter Joanna and John Kynardeseye in 1327.
>> Notes for Thomas Ferrers:
>>
>> D(W)1733/A/2/11 [late Ed.I]:
>> Gift and quitclaim by Robert de Mulewych to Thomas son of Thomas de
>> Ferr[ers], lord of Loxley, of 10 d. annual rent etc
>>
>> D(W)1733/A/2/13 1295/6
>> Gift by Thomas son of Thomas de Ferariis of Loxley to Robert le Venour
>> of Uttoxeter etc.
>>
>> D(W)1733/A/2/14 1298
>> Quitclaim by Thomas son of Thomas de Ferrars to Robert of Uttoxeter etc.
>>
>> D(W)1733/A/2/17 [Ed.I/II] ca. 1307....Witnesses: Thomas de Ferrers jr, lord of Loxley etc
>>
>> D(W)1733/A/4/30 1299
>> Gift by Alexander son of Alexander de la Lee to Thomas de Ferrars lord
>> of Loxley and Isabel his wife ... Lord Robert de Dethek etc.
>> Note: witness from time of Jr.
>>
>> Thomas Ferrers and Isabel N had the following children:
>>
>> 4.i. Joane Ferrers. She married John de Kynardesley, son of John de
>> Kynardesley.
>>
>> ii. Thomas Ferrers:
>> He died before 1322.
>>
>> Notes for Thomas Ferrers:
>>
>> Visitation of Warwickshire, p. 397 sister was heir, ob. sp 14E1 (1282)
>> Note: date is very wrong.
>>
>> John de Calewyth son of Richard de Calewyth de Calewyth … states that
>> Thomas, son of Thomas de Ferers. died seised under age. of half the
>> manor of Great Loxley. … They have wrongly maintained John, son of
>> Thomas de Ferers of Loxtey. who is not the heir of the whole blood but
>> the son of another mother. The wardship ought to be seised into the
>> king’s hand because of the minorty of John. son of Richard de Calewyth.
>> who is Thomas’ kinsman and heir of the whole blood, and who is seventeen
>> years old. He requests a remedy … One of a collection of petitions
>> published on pages 387ff of Rol. Pad. V. I which all seem to date from
>> around 1322. Etc. Translation by National Archive.
Thomas was the son of Isabel, who was apparently related to John de
Calewyth, while John Ferrers was the son of Cecilia. The Manor of Great
Loxley went to Joanna instead, see below.
>> iii. Alicia Ferrers
>> She married Thomas Rile.
>>
>> Notes for Alicia Ferrers: Visitation of Warwickshire, p. 397
>>
>> Notes for Thomas Rile:
>>
>> Visitation of Warwickshire, p. 397 de Loxley
>>
>> Thomas Ferrers and Cecilia N had the following child:
>>
>> iv. John Fedders.
>>
>> *Generation 4*
>>
>> 4.Joane Ferrers, Thomas3, Thomas2, Robert1.
>> She married John de Kynardesley, son of John de Kynardesley.
>>
>> Notes for Joane Ferrers: Visitation of Warwickshire, p. 397
>>
>> Kynnersley pedigree: Joane sister and heir of Thomas fferrares de Loxley
>>
>> Notes for John de Kynardesley:
>>
>> kynardesley pedigree, 1897: de Loxley in com. Staff.
>>
>> Calwech finally give up the suit over the manors:
>> D(W)1733/A/2/19 1331/2 Quitclaim by John son of Richard de Calwech to
>> John de Kynardeseye lord of Loxley of the manors of Loxley and Lee,
>> Derbyshire, etc.
Hope to hear of any comments, does Richardson have any more information
about Robert's relationship to the Earl of Derby? Charlie
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