Chatillon ancestry
John Carmi Parsons
but for what it's worth:
Milon I, lord of Chatillon, fl. to ca 1050 = NF
Gui I, lord of Chatillon, fl. 1076 = Ermengarde "de Choisy" (no parents)
Gauthier I, fl. or d ca 1096 = NF
Henry I, fl. 1130 = Ermengarde "de Montjai" (no parents named)
Renaud (yr son) = Constance, *suo jure* princess of Antioch
Anne = Bela III, king of Hungary
Renaud's elder brother Gauthier II (d. 1147) = Ada de Rouci
Gui II, fl. 1170 = Alix, dau. of Robert I Ct of Dreux
Gauthier de Chatillon III (d. 1219) = Elisabeth, dame de St-Pol (d. 1233)
Hugh de Chatillon-St Pol (d. 1248) = Marie d'Avesnes, *suo jure* countess
of Blois (d. 1241)
Guy (yr son, d. 1289) = Mathilde of Brabant
Gui (yr son, of Chatillon-St Pol, d. 1317) = Marie of Brittany
John of Chatillon-St-Pol, d. before 1344 = Jeanne de Fiennes
Mahaut, hss of Chatillon-St-Pol = (1350) Guy of Luxembourg, Ct of Ligny
The above is taken from Anselme and from Stokvis, who essentially repeats what
Anselme already said.
John Parsons
Dcrdcr4
By any chance, are you the author, John Carmi Parsons? I'm curious. Whether
or not, I'm enjoy reading your postings. Sincerely, Douglas Richardson
Todd A. Farmerie
I guess turna about is fair play. By any chance, are you the author,
Douglas Richardson?
taf
John Carmi Parsons
John Carmi Parsons
Date: 21 Jan 1999 10:51:42 -0800
Organization: RootsWeb Genealogical Data Cooperative
Reply-To: John Carmi Parsons <jpar...@chass.utoronto.ca>
X-Complaints-To: use...@news.rootsweb.com
Nntp-Posting-Date: 21 Jan 1999 18:51:42 GMT
John Parsons
__
| Internet: John.Carm...@sjpc.org
| Fidonet: John Carmi Parsons 1:143/1001
|
| A service of the San Jose IBM PC Club, running OS/2 Warp
Dcrdcr4
I was told by Michael Welch that you replied to my posting asking if you were
John Carmi Parsons. I haven't found your reply yet. However, I had already
realized that you were John Carmi Parsons as I saw you were affiliated with the
University of Toronto. I am presently helping David Faris to revise his book,
Plantagenet Ancestry, and I sent him the revisions you developed regarding
Eleanor of Castille and the list of her children. David and I are also in the
process of coauthoring another book, Magna Carta Ancestry, which will be
similarly in style to Plantagenet Ancestry.
Speaking of which, do you have any information on Queen Philippa of Hainault's
immediate family? This past week I learned she had a bastard sister in England
named Elizabeth de Holand as well as another kinswoman, Mary, wife of Roger
Louthe of Sawtry Beaumes, co. Huntingdon. Have you ever heard of either
Elizabeth or Mary?
All for now. Douglas Richardson
Dcrdcr4
Douglas Richardson the author? What do you think?
Richard Borthwick
Reynald belonged to the family of Chatillon-sur-Loing and not
Chatillon-sur-Marne. In the latter reference he is said to be the son of
Geoffroy lord of C-s-L. The article by S Schein in *Lexikon des
Mittelalters* VII:416-417 claims him to be to be the brother of Geoffroy
and son of Herve II lord of Donzy. Runciman *History of the Crusades*
(penguin edition) vol.2, p.345 identifies him as the younger son of
Geoffroy count of Gien and lord of C-s-M. Bouchard *Sword, Miter and
Cloister* (Ithaca/London, 1987), p.327 does not mention our Reynald but she
points out that Geoffroy II lord of Donzy and count of Chalon appears in a
charter of 1086 with a "nepos" Raynald son of Robert de Chatillon and that
this Reynald had a son Narjod. Bouchard says "It seems most likely that
Robert of Chatillon was the brother of Geoffrey II's unnamed wife, or
perhaps a relative of Savaric of Vergy." (Savaric was Geoffroy II's
maternal uncle.) The name 'Reynald' occurs several times in the family of
Donzy and it may have passed from that family to that of Chatillon. Our
Reynald died in 1187, and according to ES III/3:435 Geoffroy II d.1111, his
son Herve II d.1120 and his grandson Geoffroy III d.1157. It would seem
that Reynald was rather more remote than the various speculations for
affiliation suggest. My guess (and it is only that) is that he was a
grandson or great grandson of Robert of Chatillon.
The family tree for Donzy in Bouchard is markedly different to that given
in ES.
Norma Rudinsky
Thanks very much to all who replied to my message about Agnes of
Chatillon. Very fine help.
Norma Leigh Rudinsky
Tristan Tornado
who cares? The important thing here is that we stay ontopic, spell all
the words correctly,be gramitiaclly correct and get thouroughly drunk
tonight. But I'm still not sharing my stash with anyone in here,
except maybe with a few select michigan,idaho,ausrtralian and british
ladies who were kind enough to bail me out of jail the other night.
Tornado
".....made the savage beast inside roaring til it cried for More,
More, More......."
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Richard Borthwick
Cloister* (Ithaca/London, 1987), p.327 does not mention our Reynald but she
points out that Geoffroy II lord of Donzy and count of Chalon appears in a
charter of 1086 with a "nepos" Raynald son of Robert de Chatillon and that
this Reynald had a son Narjod. Bouchard says "It seems most likely that
Robert of Chatillon was the brother of Geoffrey II's unnamed wife, or
perhaps a relative of Savaric of Vergy." (Savaric was Geoffroy II's
maternal uncle.) The name 'Reynald' occurs several times in the family of
Donzy and it may have passed from that family to that of Chatillon. Our
Reynald died in 1187, and according to ES III/3:435 Geoffroy II d.1111, his
son Herve II d.1120 and his grandson Geoffroy III d.1157. It would seem
that Reynald was rather more remote than the various speculations for
affiliation suggest. My guess (and it is only that) is that he was a
grandson or great grandson of Robert of Chatillon.
The family tree for Donzy in Bouchard is markedly different to that given
in ES.
* In my post above I recognise an error. Runciman doesn't call Reynald's
father lord of Chatillon-sur-Marne but of C-sur-Loing. Also I failed to
mention that Bouchard (p.327) notes that Herve III is called lord of Gien
as well as lord of Donzy. I also should have drawn attention to the fact
that ES III/1:154 while calling Reynald's father Geoffrey lord of C-s-L (as
I noted) there is no claim that this Geoffrey is a Donzy or a relative of
the Donzy. I do, however, think that at least the latter alternative is
intended as the compiler cites Runciman.
It may be of some help to give a chart and the possibilities for Reynold
(marked in Arabic numerals). The basic chart is that given by Bouchard. She
gives no dates (except for Herve IV) which means that the dates which I
give from ES are to be treated with some caution.
________________________________ ______________________
Geoffrey I Herve I oo N Savaric de Vergy
de Donzy de Donzy |
|
__________________________________|_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Herve Hugh Reynald Geoffrey II oo N Robert de Chatillon
de Donzy & | |
c of Chalon | |
d.1111 | |
| |
______________________________________|_ |
Reynald (1) William Herve II Reynald
de Donzy |
d.1120 |
| |
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ____|_______ _ _ |_ _ _ _ _ _ _
Reynald (2) Geoffrey III Narjod (Geoffrey)
de Donzy :
d.1157 :
| :
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ ___________________|____________ :
Reynald (3) Geoffrey Herve III de Gien Reynald (4)
& Donzy d.1187
|
___________________________________|______
William Philip Reynald de Herve IV de
Montmirail Donzy d.1222
(1) is actually attested as a son and is proposed by Schein as our Reynald.
(2) is just a possibility and is suggested by no one.(3) or (4) might cover
Runciman's or ES III/1:154's proposal.
The problem is that while the lordship of Gien is attested as being held by
at least one of the lords of Donzy, Bouchard offers no evidence nor does
she claim that they also held Chatillon-sur-Loing. I think it also possible
that Robert de Chatillon married a sister of Geoffrey II (rather than G
marrying Robert's sister). This suggestion would account for the names
'Reynald' and possibly 'Geoffrey' occurring in the family of C-s-L (both
deriving from the Donzy family). The name 'Narjod' - a leading name in the
family of Toucy suggests that there might be some basis in the old claim
that a Geoffrey of Donzy married a Toucy (see ES III/3:435 for a version of
this). The putative Toucy wife was not an ancestor of the subsequent Donzy
(this came about by a suggested earlier marriage to one unnamed). This
suggests the possibility that Geoffrey II and Robert de Chatillon married
Toucy sisters and Robert's son, Reynald, would have been in an accepted
sense of the term 'nepos' of Geoffrey II and might explain the occurrence
of the name 'Narjod' in the Chatillon family.
If our Reynald married Constance (b.?1127 [ES II:205) early in 1153 as a
relatively young man (when he was about 25/30 (say)) then he would have
been born about 1118/23 and about 64/69 when he died. This would almost
certainly place him in the generation of (3) and (4) and at a pinch in that
of (2). Even with an extended chronology (1) looks unlikely since Reynald
was very much involved in fighting to the end of his life. Even making him
64/69 is probably pushing it. Reynald also had a second family after
Constance's death (? 1163).
Norma Rudinsky
I have Cunegunde, second wife of Premysl Otakar II, king of Bohemia, as
daughter of Rostislaw von Halicz in E.S. (Marburg 1960), I-II, Taf.24.
Her dates are given as married 1261, died 1285.
In another source (German but not at hand, possibly Jaroslav Polc on St
Agnes), she is given as Kunigunde of Tschernigow-Galizien. I assume
Halicz and Galicia are the same? And does anyone have more on her father?
And who was her mother?
Second, her daughter Cunegunde (1265-1321) later became famous as
patron and abbess of St George's in Prague, but for ten years she was wife
of H. von Masowien (according to E.S.) and elsewhere as Duke Boleslaw
Mazowius (d.by 1302). Who was he?
I'll add on a geographical question, Where was he? i.e. which part of
Poland is indicated by Masowien/Mazowius? Anything about his castles,
patronage, cultural info?
Comment: One trouble with using German sources is that they usually give
the names, both family and geographical, in their German form. For a
mixed area like central Europe, and ethnically mixed kingdoms like Bohemia
almost from the beginning (certainly dynastically mixed later with
Austrian nobility), this ends up tendentious. Oops, this is a general
matter, so I'll put my question in a separate post.
Thanks for any help with the mother Cunegunde's parents and the daughter
Cunegunde's husband.
Norma Leigh Rudinsky
Alexander Agamov
>I have Cunegunde, second wife of Premysl Otakar II, king of Bohemia, as
>daughter of Rostislaw von Halicz in E.S. (Marburg 1960), I-II, Taf.24.
>Her dates are given as married 1261, died 1285.
>
>In another source (German but not at hand, possibly Jaroslav Polc on St
>Agnes), she is given as Kunigunde of Tschernigow-Galizien. I assume
>Halicz and Galicia are the same? And does anyone have more on her father?
>
>And who was her mother?
Cunegunde Rostislawna born 1248 and died 1285 was a daughter of Rostislaw
Michailovich Pr. (Kniaz) of Galizien (1219-1264) and Anne of Hungary
(ab.1225-1270). Rostislaw was a founder of Galizien branch of Tschernigow's
princes (his husbund was Michail of Tschernigow (1179-1246), famous Russian
historical person). There are two differrent dates of Cunegunde's marriage:
1261 and 1264 (both 25 Oct). I prefer the second because the first is
oriented to the date of divorce her husband with Margarete of Austria
(1235-1267, marriage 1252, divorce 1261).
Hope, this helps,
Alexander Agamov
Alexander Agamov
>patron and abbess of St George's in Prague, but for ten years she was wife
>of H. von Masowien (according to E.S.) and elsewhere as Duke Boleslaw
>Mazowius (d.by 1302). Who was he?
Cunegunde was a wife of Boleslaw II Knz (Hzg.) of Masowien (died 1313), a
son of Zimowit I (1224-1262) and Pereyaslavna Daniilovna of Galizien (died
1283)
Hope this helps,
Alexander Agamov
Alex Polenov
> Michailovich Pr. (Kniaz) of Galizien (1219-1264) and Anne of Hungary
> (ab.1225-1270). Rostislaw was a founder of Galizien branch of Tschernigow's
> princes (his husbund was Michail of Tschernigow (1179-1246), famous Russian
his farther not husbund!!! ha-ha-he-he... :-)
William Addams Reitwiesner
>
>I have Cunegunde, second wife of Premysl Otakar II, king of Bohemia, as
>daughter of Rostislaw von Halicz in E.S. (Marburg 1960), I-II, Taf.24.
>Her dates are given as married 1261, died 1285.
>
>In another source (German but not at hand, possibly Jaroslav Polc on St
>Agnes), she is given as Kunigunde of Tschernigow-Galizien. I assume
>Halicz and Galicia are the same?
Yes, they're the same. It's now in southeastern Poland/western Ukraine.
In Polish it's called "Galicja", and in Ukranian it's called "Halychna".
> And does anyone have more on her father?
>
>And who was her mother?
>
>Second, her daughter Cunegunde (1265-1321) later became famous as
>patron and abbess of St George's in Prague, but for ten years she was wife
>of H. von Masowien (according to E.S.) and elsewhere as Duke Boleslaw
>Mazowius (d.by 1302). Who was he?
>
>I'll add on a geographical question, Where was he? i.e. which part of
>Poland is indicated by Masowien/Mazowius?
In Polish it's the historic region "Mazowsze". It's in central Poland,
pretty much the same as Warsaw province.
You didn't ask, but "Tschernigow" ("Chernigov" in English) is now
"Chernihiv" in Ukraine.
William Addams Reitwiesner
wr...@erols.com
"Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc."
Norma Rudinsky
Thanks for this info. Do you know of any relation between the mother of
this Boleslaw, i.e. Pereyaslavna Danilovna "of Galizien," and Rostislaw
Michailovich of Galizien, i.e. the grandfather of Cunegunde no. 2, wife of
this Boleslaw?
I'm more interested in geographical closeness than family line, e.g. did
they share castles, dynastic culture, etc? Probably not, if this
Boleslaw of Masowsce was in what is now Poland more than what is now
Ukraine?
But also Rostislaw moved to the west into Poland and Hungary after the
Mongol/Tartar invasion, didn't he? So I am wondering if Cunegunde no.1
and Otakar married off Cunegunde no.2 to a relative of Rostislaw in
Galicia?
Thanks for anything you can add.
Norma Leigh Rudinsky