Cleopatra to Zenobia to Theodora to Charlemagne
L Mahler
Of course, it might be hard to believe for those who:
"may not be familiar with modern scholarly methods" and "maybe over
your head, but don't let it give you a headache."
His site shows Zenobia's descent from Cleopatra.
The section included hereafter goes from the famous Zenobia to the
equally
famous Byzantine Empress Theodora, and thence to Aupais, concubine of
Pepin of Heristal.
Somehow Mr Hughes has gotten hold of information that most of us have
never seen, ie, he has Aupais as the daughter of a King of Spain.
It would be very helpful to see some documentation on this!
Leslie
11. ZENOBIA (THEOCLEA), Queen of Palymra 267-273 deposed; dc AD290; =
Septimius Odenathus, King of Palymra [his 2nd =]; =2 [his 2nd =] a
Roman senator; issue:
12. Wahballtes [Vaballathus], sole surviving son of 1st husband (325),
begot
13. Odenathus (350), begot
14. Eusebius (375), begot
15. Flavianus (400), begot
16. Eusebius (430), begot
17. Diogenes (460); = Cyrina of Damascus, & begot
18. Theodora = Acacius (d500), worked in a circus; the parents of
19. THEODORA, Empress (d548); =1 Helebolus, a Syrian noble; =2
JUSTINIAN "THE GREAT", Byzantine Emperor 527-565 [her sisters were:
Comitio & Anastasia]; the mother of
20. Theodora [daughter], called simply "a Byzantine noble woman" by
contemporary writers, who considered her illegitimate; = Anastasius, a
Roman/Byzantine noble; begot
21. Johannes [John] = Georgia; begot
22. Georgia = Areobindus [son of Anastasius by 2nd wife, Juliana, a
Roman/Byzantine princess], issue:
23. Juliana = Atanagildo, Visi-Goth Prince of Spain, & begot
24. Ardebasto = […]godo of Burgundy; the parents of
25. Ervigio, King of Spain 680-687; = Liubigotana; begot
26. Aupais; = Pepin [II] de Heristal, Major Domo of France, d714;
begot
27. Charles "Martel", Duke of France 737-741; = Rotrude, daughter of
St. Lievin, Bishop of Treves;
Jay
application to our own genealogical reality.
-Jay
lma...@att.net (L Mahler) wrote in message news:<9bb1d741.03070...@posting.google.com>...
Francisco Antonio Doria
I doubt very much it holds water...
Ardabastus called `The Greek' has a name reminiscent
of Artavazd, typical of the Mamikonians. There was an
exchange here with Christian Settipani, where he
pointed out that Vardan III Mamikonian was at
Byzantium at just about the time to be a gfather of
this Ardabastus. Vardan III is (if I rightly recall)
presumed to be a brother of Artavazd IV - it is in the
LGA, but my copy is in the other room.
The connection between Alpaïs and Erwig or whatever is
absurd and fully undocumented.
chico
--- L Mahler <lma...@att.net> escreveu: > This
> 24. Ardebasto = […]godo of Burgundy; the
> parents of
>
> 25. Ervigio, King of Spain 680-687; = Liubigotana;
> begot
>
> 26. Aupais; = Pepin [II] de Heristal, Major Domo of
> France, d714;
> begot
>
> 27. Charles "Martel", Duke of France 737-741; =
> Rotrude, daughter of
> St. Lievin, Bishop of Treves;
>
_______________________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Mail
Mais espaço, mais segurança e gratuito: caixa postal de 6MB, antivírus, proteção contra spam.
http://br.mail.yahoo.com/
Francisco Antonio Doria
You know that I'm on the liberal side when it comes to
DFA, but this line is too much even for me. Alpaïs a
Visigothic princess? Ughhh!!!
--- lma...@att.net escreveu: > >I doubt very much it
holds water...
>
> >Ardabastus called `The Greek' has a name
> reminiscent
> >of Artavazd, typical of the Mamikonians. There was
> an
> >exchange here with Christian Settipani, where he
> >pointed out that Vardan III Mamikonian was at
> >Byzantium at just about the time to be a gfather of
> >this Ardabastus. Vardan III is (if I rightly
> recall)
> >presumed to be a brother of Artavazd IV - it is in
> the
> >LGA, but my copy is in the other room.
>
> >The connection between Alpaïs and Erwig or whatever
> is
> >absurd and fully undocumented.
>
> >chico
>
> I really wonder where they found the line going back
> to Theodora & Zenobia?
>
> Maybe they fabricated it themselves???
>
> Leslie
Seth
> You know that I'm on the liberal side when it comes to
> DFA, but this line is too much even for me. Alpaïs a
> Visigothic princess? Ughhh!!!
She was a Visigothic princess, why do you deny this? Mr. Hughes put
lots of work into these genealogies, with full research. So please...
Pierre Aronax
"Seth" <S4PRe...@aol.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
a2a9cdf.03070...@posting.google.com...
> franciscoa...@yahoo.com.br (Francisco Antonio Doria) wrote in
message news:<2003070511235...@web41706.mail.yahoo.com>...
> > You know that I'm on the liberal side when it comes to
> > DFA, but this line is too much even for me. Alpaïs a
> > Visigothic princess? Ughhh!!!
>
> She was a Visigothic princess, why do you deny this? Mr. Hughes put
> lots of work into these genealogies, with full research. So please...
I know it is not considered polite to ask this kind of questions to the
trolls but: do you have a source to sustain the fantastic claim that Charles
Martel's mother was a Visigothic princess?
Pierre
Francisco Antonio Doria
None, Pierre. The descent from Artavazd/Ardabastus is
confusing enough, but *no* onomastic evidence supports
a name like Alpaïs. I have Lévillain's old paper on
the historical Nibelungs and am going to see there
whether there is any indication of her ancestry.
chico
--- Pierre Aronax <pierre...@hotmail.com>
escreveu: >
_______________________________________________________________________
Francisco Antonio Doria
Please, `Seth,' see my answer to Pierre Aronax. There
I give some hint of where to start looking - perhaps -
for some documentation on Alpaïs' ancestry. But surely
she was no Visigothic princess...
Also please sign your name, as we all do here.
Best,
Francisco Antonio de Moraes Acciaioli Doria
aka chico
--- Seth <S4PRe...@aol.com> escreveu: >
Todd A. Farmerie
> franciscoa...@yahoo.com.br (Francisco Antonio Doria) wrote in message news:<2003070511235...@web41706.mail.yahoo.com>...
>
>>You know that I'm on the liberal side when it comes to
>>DFA, but this line is too much even for me. Alpaïs a
>>Visigothic princess? Ughhh!!!
>
> She was a Visigothic princess, why do you deny this?
This is the wrong question to ask in genealogy. You don't (or at
least shouldn't) say, "it's right unless you can prove it wrong."
Rather, the burden is on those making a claim to provide their
reasoning, and doubting such a claim until such information is
given should be the default position. This is particularly the
case with a conclusion that goes against over a century of
scholarly research, as this one does.
> Mr. Hughes put
> lots of work into these genealogies, with full research. So please...
Perhaps, then, he can reveal the evidence or reasoning on which
he based his conclusions (or, since you appear to be familiar
enough with his research to give such strong support to it, maybe
you can explain the basis for your faith in his result).
taf
Christian Settipani
Besides, one finds there particularities which incite in best to the caution. For restrict to Chalpaida, I note the following delicious remark:
'Aupais [sister of Pedro, Duke of Cantabria, &, Cixila, wife of Argica, King of Spain 687-701] = Pepin [II] of Heristal, Major Domo of France (d714) [his 2nd =] [note: Aupais is not to be confused with Chalpaida [Elphide], 3rd wife of Pepin [II] of Heristal'
Stunning!
To clarify, it is maybe useful to give nevertheless some precision on these persons.
Concerning Chalpaida:
Strictly nothing is know about her ancestry. Old sources favorable to the Carolingians assert simply that she was noble. Other sources do not say anything.
In front of this silence, one can indeed , after all, assert that Chalpaida was of wisigothic origin. It is not me who could prove the opposite. But one could so indeed assert that she was Chinese or Persian. It is not forbidden to make hypotheses, but it is necessary to try to justify them a bit.
Now, here is a small review of modern theories, by beginning with those that antedate my book 'La Prehistoire des Capetiens', 1993, p. 155-6 and 159-16, where old and modern references will be found; for later works, see my paper in 'History and Computing', 12 (2000), p. 63:
- L Levillain (1938) considers that the noble Childebrand, named in 673 could be a grandfather (or great-uncle) of Childebrand, a brother of Charles Martel, and so the father of Chalpaida;
- M. Werner (1980) (after E. Ewig) bases himself on the given evidence of relationship between Pippin le Bref, son of Chalpaida, and Bertha of Laon, to connect Chalpaida with Bertha of Laon's relationship;
- E Hlawitschka (1985), rejects simply the pro-Carolingian sources by considering that they lie and consider so Chalpaida as of unknown origin and not inevitably noble;
- R Gerberding (1987) bases himself on a note of the LHF of 9th c. who asserts that Chalpaida was the sister of the domestic Dodon to connect her with a powerful aristocratic clan of the Liège area;
In my book, I showed that M. Werner's position rests on a bad base, the relationship between Pippin and Bertha having another explanation. As for the thesis of L. Levillain, it remains fragile because of the uncertainty concerning the exact relationship between Childebrand and Charles Martel, who could have only a single parent in common, and not inevitably the same mother. At this time, I had accepted the position of R. Gerberding, which had the merit to be the only one based on a medieval source.
Since, the following positions can be noted:
- G. Tikka, 'The common author of the parents of Charlemagne', Tanneron, 1992 (in French), resumes M. Werner's idea and asserts, with a series of confusions, nonsenses and of errors of logic, that Chalpaida was a Bavarian;
- P. Fouracre (2000), p. 55-6, resumes the argumentation of his friend R. Gerberding;
- W. Joch (1999), p. 26-7 and p. 130-145, resumes the question in detail. He shows that the LHF's note which concerns Chalpaide 'sister of Dodo' is of 15th c. and not of 9th c. Henceforth, this brotherhood has for older witness Sigebert of Gembloux, in the 11th c., whose testimony would not offer, according to W. Joch, sufficient guarantees.
Finally, one returns in a total ignorance. Is it necessary to admit the data of Gembloux's Sigebert, of 11th c., in absence of any confirmation in the former sources? It is necessary to return in Levillain's hypothesis, supposing that Childebrand was the son of Chalpaida? Or is it necessary to find other thing?
Now, a word about Zenobia and her descendants:
Generations 11 - 18 seem directly taked of my book 'Continuitué gentilice...' , p. 441 (it seems at least that the author read this book as it appears from the Roman genealogies somewhere else), which gives the genealogy of a certain Theodora from Damascus, which lived towards 500, until Zenobia. From there, the author supposed that this Theodora was the mother of the homonymous empress. It is improblable for several reasons:
The empress Theodora was of humble origin while Damascus's Theodora was noble;
The most ancient source said that the empress Theodora was native of Cyprus, the other sources give different places, but nobody connects her with Damascus;
The name Theodora/Theodorus is one of the most frequent of the Later Roman Empire and homonymy is obviously not enough to support a relationship between two persons of this name;
The empress Theodora was a fervent Christian, while Damascus's Theodora was a notorious Pagan.
Generations 19 - 21 could be taked also by my book (p. 423), but other sources are possible. I note only that generation 20 'Theodora called simply as Byzantine noble woman by contemporary writers' is completely anonymous in reality.
Generations 22 - 23 are more mysterious. In the genealogical table of my book appears indeed John, husband of Georgia (gen. 21), and then, in the following generation, Areobindus (nephew of John), brother-in-law of Georgius. Is this last one Georgius, husband of John's niece, the source for Georgia, wife of Areobindus, John's nephew? I don't know, but I notice that, in that case, one would have a marriage among first cousins, forbidden by imperial legislation. Anyway, nothing is know on Areobindus's possible alliances, and Georgia, his supposed wife, is not quoted in any document to my knowledge.
Generation 23 arises from the spanish historian and *forger* Jose Pellicer de Ossau y Tovar (1602-1677), who asserts that Peter, duke of Cantabria was the son of Ervigius, son of Ardabasto, son of Athanagild and Iuliana, daughter of Peter (brother of the emperor Mauricius) and of Flavia Iuliana Areobinda (I am not sure of this last name, my copy of the manuscript of Salazar being illegible in this place). All this is invented. In a book to appear, I hope, in 2004, I would resume in detail the question of the families of Mauricius and Ardabasto (anyway, Ducange's note on the family of Mauricius is widely incomplete and erroneous in several places).
Generation 24 is known with a text of 9th c. It is, these last years, widely disputed by the Spanish historians, but wrongly in my opinion. At least, Ardabasto, if authentic, did not marry a Burgonde, but the first cousin of the wisigothic king Receswind.
CS
Pierre Aronax
""Christian Settipani"" <ina...@club-internet.fr> a écrit dans le message de
news: 003f01c343c2$d6aec440$232d...@wanadoo.fr.wanadoo.fr...
<...>
> Generation 23 arises from the spanish historian and *forger* Jose Pellicer
de Ossau y Tovar (1602-1677), who asserts
> that Peter, duke of Cantabria was the son of Ervigius, son of Ardabasto,
son of Athanagild and Iuliana, daughter of Peter
> (brother of the emperor Mauricius) and of Flavia Iuliana Areobinda (I am
not sure of this last name, my copy of the
> manuscript of Salazar being illegible in this place). All this is
invented. In a book to appear, I hope, in 2004, I would
> resume in detail the question of the families of Mauricius and Ardabasto
(anyway, Ducange's note on the family of
> Mauricius is widely incomplete and erroneous in several places).
Thank you for the comments. I already observed about late Byzantine
genealogies that the internet seems to have given a second and stunning
youth to the more incredible genealogical forgeries of the Modern period.
Pierre
Don Stone
L Mahler wrote:
> This lineage from the website of David Hughes is quite interesting.
[snip]
> Somehow Mr Hughes has gotten hold of information that most of us have
> never seen, ie, he has Aupais as the daughter of a King of Spain.
>
> It would be very helpful to see some documentation on this!
>
> Leslie
>
>
> 11. ZENOBIA (THEOCLEA), Queen of Palymra 267-273 deposed; dc AD290; =
> Septimius Odenathus, King of Palymra [his 2nd =]; =2 [his 2nd =] a
> Roman senator; issue:
>
> 12. Wahballtes [Vaballathus], sole surviving son of 1st husband (325),
> begot
>
> 13. Odenathus (350), begot
>
> 14. Eusebius (375), begot
----#14, Eusebius, is undoubtedly PLRE 1:1's Eusebius 27, who was "son of
Odaenathus, descendant of the Palmyrene king (Septimius) Odaenathus." He's
seen 391-393 CE. This accounts for #13, as well, but the filiation of #13
from #12 is, AFAIK, speculation. (Note also that there'd be at least a
generation and probably two missing, judging from the chronology. Wahballat,
aka Athenodorus, would actually have been born ~240.)
> 15. Flavianus (400), begot
>
> 16. Eusebius (430), begot
>
> 17. Diogenes (460); = Cyrina of Damascus, & begot
----#s 14-17: somewhere, I've seen this lineage, or something close to it and
of roughly this era, attested. That the elder Eusebius = the son of
Odaenathus is, AFAIK, speculation; if based on the name being the same,
exceedingly *weak* speculation, as Eusebius was an extremely common Christian
name in the lower empire.
> 18. Theodora = Acacius (d500), worked in a circus; the parents of
>
> 19. THEODORA, Empress (d548); =1 Helebolus, a Syrian noble; =2
> JUSTINIAN "THE GREAT", Byzantine Emperor 527-565 [her sisters were:
> Comitio & Anastasia]; the mother of
----#19: The empress Theodora was daughter of Acacius, an animal-keeper of
some sort in the Circus. Procopius has much to say about her antecedents in
the *Anecdota*, which, even allowing for his personal hatred and biased
interpretation of facts, are unlikely to have been anything but lower-class.
She certainly didn't marry prior to Justinian; she was, on the most charitable
view, a 'woman of easy virtue.' I rather think the man cited as her first
husband was one of those who kept her.
> 20. Theodora [daughter], called simply "a Byzantine noble woman" by
> contemporary writers, who considered her illegitimate; = Anastasius, a
> Roman/Byzantine noble; begot
>
> 21. Johannes [John] = Georgia; begot
>
> 22. Georgia = Areobindus [son of Anastasius by 2nd wife, Juliana, a
> Roman/Byzantine princess], issue:
>
> 23. Juliana = Atanagildo, Visi-Goth Prince of Spain, & begot
>
> 24. Ardebasto = […]godo of Burgundy; the parents of
----#24: I don't believe either the parentage or the wife or the kids of
Ardebasto are known.
> 25. Ervigio, King of Spain 680-687; = Liubigotana; begot
>
> 26. Aupais; = Pepin [II] de Heristal, Major Domo of France, d714;
> begot
>
> 27. Charles "Martel", Duke of France 737-741; = Rotrude, daughter of
> St. Lievin, Bishop of Treves;
----All in all, a peculiar concoction -- what does the man who furnished this
line has to offer by way of documentation?
Phil Moody
> > 11. ZENOBIA (THEOCLEA), Queen of Palymra 267-273 deposed; dc AD290; =
> > Septimius Odenathus, King of Palymra [his 2nd =]; =2 [his 2nd =] a
> > Roman senator; issue:
> >
> > 12. Wahballtes [Vaballathus], sole surviving son of 1st husband (325),
> > begot
> >
> > 13. Odenathus (350), begot
> >
> > 14. Eusebius (375), begot
>
> ----#14, Eusebius, is undoubtedly PLRE 1:1's Eusebius 27, who was "son of
> Odaenathus, descendant of the Palmyrene king (Septimius) Odaenathus." He's
> seen 391-393 CE. This accounts for #13, as well, but the filiation of #13
> from #12 is, AFAIK, speculation. (Note also that there'd be at least a
> generation and probably two missing, judging from the chronology.
Wahballat,
> aka Athenodorus, would actually have been born ~240.)
>
PLM: Marshall, on what evidence do you base the 240 AD birth for Wahballat,
aka Athenodorus on? From all accounts I have seen, Zenobia usurped the throne
of Palmyra after the Murder of Septimius Odenathus and his eldest son (from
previous marriage) c. 266/7, on behalf of her "infant son", Wahballat, aka
Athenodorus. I would not make his birth any earlier than 260, and 265 is not
unrealistic in my mind.
Best Wishes,
Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Stone" <don....@verizon.net>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2003 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: Cleopatra to Zenobia to Theodora to Charlemagne
Don Stone
> Marshall Kirk via Don Stone wrote:
>
>>>11. ZENOBIA (THEOCLEA), Queen of Palymra 267-273 deposed; dc AD290; =
>>>Septimius Odenathus, King of Palymra [his 2nd =]; =2 [his 2nd =] a
>>>Roman senator; issue:
>>>
>>>12. Wahballtes [Vaballathus], sole surviving son of 1st husband (325),
>>>begot
>>>
>>>13. Odenathus (350), begot
>>>
>>>14. Eusebius (375), begot
>>
>>----#14, Eusebius, is undoubtedly PLRE 1:1's Eusebius 27, who was "son of
>>Odaenathus, descendant of the Palmyrene king (Septimius) Odaenathus." He's
>>seen 391-393 CE. This accounts for #13, as well, but the filiation of #13
>>from #12 is, AFAIK, speculation. (Note also that there'd be at least a
>>generation and probably two missing, judging from the chronology.
>
> Wahballat,
>
>>aka Athenodorus, would actually have been born ~240.)
>
> PLM: Marshall, on what evidence do you base the 240 AD birth for Wahballat,
> aka Athenodorus on? From all accounts I have seen, Zenobia usurped the throne
> of Palmyra after the Murder of Septimius Odenathus and his eldest son (from
> previous marriage) c. 266/7, on behalf of her "infant son", Wahballat, aka
> Athenodorus. I would not make his birth any earlier than 260, and 265 is not
> unrealistic in my mind.
A reply from Marshall Kirk:
Dear Phil: why did I show the birth date of Wahballat/Vaballathus/Athenodorus
as ~240? Sheer absent-mindedness! I apparently had his *mother's*
approximate birth-date in mind. ~260 seems reasonable for Wahballat's birth,
and is, as a matter of fact, Christian's published estimate ... and roughly my
own, on personal charts I should have consulted, but was too sweltered and
lazy to check. Thirty lashes with the wet noodle of shame!----More to the
point, tho', Hughes seems to have intended those years as approximate *death*
dates, if the few later ones that indicate the meaning can be taken as
applicable to all. If so, I withdraw my objection to the chronology -- tho'
AFAIK, there's no indication of what happened to Wahballat after his
deposition in 272, or when he died, and the death year is, as far as I can
tell, picked out of thin air.
OTOH, if those *are* intended as death years, then the equation of #14,
Eusebius, supposedly d. ~375, with PLRE's Eusebius, son of Odaenathus, who's
seen -- alive -- 391-3, is rather off.
As penance, I've located the mysterious Helebolus, or whatever Hughes called
him, the empress Theodora's supposed first husband. To quote from the Penguin
translation of the _Anecdota_, which first describes Theodora's 'stage-show'
and other highlights of her career as a prostitute in possibly apocryphal but
smuttily hilarious detail: "Later she accompanied Hecebolus [note the
spelling], a Tyrian who had taken over the government of Pentapolis [in
Libya], in order to serve him in the most revolting capacity, but she got into
bad odour with him and was shot out without more ado; as a result she found
herself without even the necessities of life, which from then on she provided
in her customary fashion by making her body the tool of her lawless trade ...
Such, then, was the birth and upbringing of this woman, the subject of common
talk among women of the streets and among people of every kind."
Debating the accuracy of Procopius' account is a favorite pastime among
Byzantine scholars; he's certainly unreliable on events fifty years before his
own birth; but at my most generous and revisionist, I'd find it hard to
believe that Theodora was really of immediately *noble* origin.
Phil Moody
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Stone" <don....@verizon.net>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2003 7:59 PM
Subject: Re: Cleopatra to Zenobia to Theodora to Charlemagne
PLM: Thank you for clarifying that Marshall. I have not seen Settipani's work,
due to my ignorance of French, but it is good to know he concurs with my
liberal estimate:-) I have to admit to never having accessed Mr.Hughes' web
site, not havong the URL, but it is unclear to me what his dates are meant to
specify. This issue will need to be rectified by Mr. Hughes, as well as
providing the documentation for his data. True, there appears to be little
support for asserting the lineage went through Wahballat, and it could have
been any of his othert children before Zenobia. Perhaps it is worth mentioning
that Eusebius does not say he is a descendant of Zenobia, but rather
(Septimius) Odaenathus nearly 140 years after his death. I see no logical
reason to not mention Zenobia as well, when you consider she actually enlarged
his empire during her reign.
> OTOH, if those *are* intended as death years, then the equation of #14,
> Eusebius, supposedly d. ~375, with PLRE's Eusebius, son of Odaenathus, who's
> seen -- alive -- 391-3, is rather off.
PLM: Yes, Mr Hughes does need to clarify the meaning of his dates, as
previously mentioned.
>
> As penance, I've located the mysterious Helebolus, or whatever Hughes called
> him, the empress Theodora's supposed first husband. To quote from the
Penguin
> translation of the _Anecdota_, which first describes Theodora's 'stage-show'
> and other highlights of her career as a prostitute in possibly apocryphal
but
> smuttily hilarious detail: "Later she accompanied Hecebolus [note the
> spelling], a Tyrian who had taken over the government of Pentapolis [in
> Libya], in order to serve him in the most revolting capacity, but she got
into
> bad odour with him and was shot out without more ado; as a result she found
> herself without even the necessities of life, which from then on she
provided
> in her customary fashion by making her body the tool of her lawless trade
...
> Such, then, was the birth and upbringing of this woman, the subject of
common
> talk among women of the streets and among people of every kind."
>
PLM: Procopius does sound like a good read; so thanks for the reference! I
would have trouble putting much faith in what he wrote:-)
> Debating the accuracy of Procopius' account is a favorite pastime among
> Byzantine scholars; he's certainly unreliable on events fifty years before
his
> own birth; but at my most generous and revisionist, I'd find it hard to
> believe that Theodora was really of immediately *noble* origin.
PLM: "Immediate" noble birth certainly not, but distantly related would be
quite possible. Presumable, Justinian found something worthy of merit in her
"Virtues" to marry her, according to Mr. Hughes:-) Was it her Breeding, or her
experience at breeding, or a combination of both:-) I will be open minded and
assert it was Both:-)
One thing that I see as being contraindicative of this line being
descended through Wahballat is that I do not think it reasonable for the
Roman's to send his heirs back into the middle east, where he and his
descendants would have the greatest support to go against Rome.
http://www.malaspina.com/site/person_1215.asp
"Queen of Palmyra, one of the heroines of Antiquity. Her native name was
Septimia Bath-zabbai, a name also borne by one of her generals, Septimius
Zabbai."
Best Wishes,
Phil
>
Pierre Aronax
"Don Stone" <don....@verizon.net> a écrit dans le message de news:
3F08C5E3...@verizon.net...
And anyway Procopius does not say at all that this lover of Theodora was her
daughter's father.
Pierre
Don Stone
PLM says: "One thing that I see as being contraindicative of this line being
descended through Wahballat is that I do not think it reasonable for the
Romans to send his heirs back into the middle east, where he and his
descendants would have the greatest support to go against Rome."
Good point. It's been my own impression for several years that the Romans had
something of a habit of exiling the children of major troublemakers -- when it
didn't seem worthwhile, or perhaps good PR, to kill them outright -- far away
from their homelands, if not in fact to the opposite end of the empire;
presumably for precisely the logical reason you suggest: geographical
severance from those who might help them rebel, or make them foci of
rebellion. This, IMO, may be part of the reason one finds some incongruous
names cropping up in the Gallic prefecture. "Iamblichus," for example, one of
the two rare names most specifically associated with the royal family of Emesa
(in Syria, or thereabouts), is a bit of a surprise to encounter in the
Vth-century Gallic episcopal *fasti* -- and he's well-attested, too. (In a
contemporary letter, I think.) Apollinaris Sidonius' own cognomen (or would
this be an agnomen, or a signum?) obviously refers to Sidon, not too terribly
far from Emesa; and the Ferreoli had a Gallic estate named Prusianum, which
seems to be derived from a place-name at the other end of the Mediterranean.
(This might chime with Christian's derivation of the Syagrii from the east.)
One historian I reviewed, noting the raft of oddly eastern names bobbing about
in Gaul, ascribed it to "a fad in nomenclature." It's this sort of unlikely
guess that makes me want to go back to bed. (But I can't; I'm at work.)
History Writer
is an excellent study -- thank you for it.
Thank you also for this overview of Alpaida/Chalpaida's possible
origin. I see that there are many theories, but only Gerberding bases
his view on a medieval source. For those interested in the subject, I
have following the references, which show how the various views have
found there way into histories of the period.
Ian Wood in "The Mergovinigian Kingdoms" (1994), page 261, states that
Alpaida, mother of Charles Martel, came from a family which held
estates in the Valley of the Meuse. Wood's reference is "The Rise of
the Carolingians and the Liber Historiae Francorum" by R. A.
Gerberding (1987). ("The Liber Historiae Francorum" being a
comptemporary source.) I also note that in Tableau LVI of "Les Seize
Quartiers des Reines et Imperatrices Francaises" by Jacques Saillot,
Charles Martel's mother is listed as "Alpaide de Bruyeres en
Etampois". Saillot provides four references for the Tableau, so it is
not clear which is the source of his statement. Finally, Ivan Gorby
in "Les Premiers rois de France" writes on page 321 concerning Pepin,
"En 688, celui-ci l'eloigna a Cologne, pour prendre une concubine,
Alpaide." The source for Gorby's statement is unclear. Best Regards.
Francisco Antonio Doria
I´m not using my own computer, I´m on the road, so I won´t be able to quote Settipani´s message on this.
A few years ago Vaz de São Payo published a series of articles on the ancestry of Afonso Henriques, first king of Portugal. They have since appeared in book form, but only recently could I collect the original set of papers.
São Payo asserts that Pedro, duque de Cantábria, was a member of the royal family, descended from Reccared. He quotes, iirr, a 9th century reference on that. The difficulty I see here has to do with onomastics: we have several Alfonsos and Froilas among the descendants of Pedro, and those names are unknown among the royals in Leodegild´s line; São Payo then asserts that Reccared´s wife Bauda was the daughter of one Fonsus (cf. Hilde+fonsus > Alfonso) who was a *comes* in the Visigothic monarchy. If that holds, it would be an explanation, but it´s hard for me to understand why none of the characteristic root names in Leodegild´s kin appear in the early Asturian kings.
On Ardabasto: Settipani and I had an exchange here on the possible ancestry of Ardabasto. Christian, have you changed your mind on that?
chico
---------------------------------
Kelsey J. Williams
Hello,
Saillot, as has been pointed out before, is highly untrustworthy,
especially on the earlier Medieval lines. Use him with caution!
Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams
Christian Settipani
Saillot ? Ahhhrg
I lived in Bruyeres (or almost: at 2 km) and I have never seen Alpaide.
Maybe she never went there ? On Saillot it is necessary to read my article
in 'Heraldique et Genealogie', 104 , juil-sept. 1987, p. 277-280 (is someone
interested for translate it in english?). Poor man !
For I. Gobry (not Gorby), he is not really an historian, but a popularizer
author. One can't expext of him a new discovery.
For Ian Wood, he base himself on Gerberding, so no independant value.
CS
Christian Settipani
> On Ardabasto: Settipani and I had an exchange here on the possible
ancestry of Ardabasto. Christian, have you changed your mind on that?
No
CS
Phil Moody
PLM: My primary interest in Septimius Odenathus is because I truly believe he
is the historical figure who later became deified into the God Odin. After
reading of his origin in Snorri and Saxo, both seem to agree he came from the
general vicinity of Asia Minor. While reading an essay by David Oates on the
Rise and Fall of Sassanian Iran; I read about the Prince of Palmyra who
defeated Shapur I, and his name was Odeynath in the Sassanian records.
Shapur's chroniclers merely say that Odeynath harried them and relieved them
of much booty, but this is typical spin doctoring to escape the ignominy of
defeat by the great Shapur I.
This is of course our Septimius Odenathus, who was made emperor of the eastern
Roman empire for his accomplishments by the Romans; so his achievements must
have been significant by Roman standards. The great achievements of this man
are worthy of remembrance, as we see Eusebius claiming descent from him 140
years later; so - what legends could grow far to the North by his descendants
about this historical figure?
You will find the contemporary historical figure Mani (the Prophet) in Grimm's
Teutonic Mythology; so how did a religious figure patronized by Shapur I
become deified far to the North? Even if you examine the name of Septimius
Odenathus' son by Zenobia, Wahballtes [Vaballathus], it is not difficult to
see where the word Valhalla comes from:-)
I would like to thank Don Stone for sharing your comments with us - on this
slightly off topic subject! Marshall, you are welcome to e-mail me directly
anytime at moody...@cox.net if you are so inclined.
Best Wishes,
Phil
Francisco Antonio Doria
Etimologies are tricky; cf. the derivation phersu >
persona (which leads us to the erroneous etimology
from per + sonare). Another example: Nivelles >
Nevelong > Nibelung (not from Nebel). But I've always
felt that Wahlhalla sounds quite right as Hall of the
Elect.
chico
--- Phil Moody <moody...@cox.net> escreveu: >
_______________________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Mail
Mais espaço, mais segurança e gratuito: caixa postal de 6MB, antivírus, proteção contra spam.
Phil Moody
I have no pretension of being an etymologist, but isn't this a field heavily
dependant on a great deal of "Educated Guess Work"? I see as being similar to
translating Scandinavian Runic inscriptions, where each Rune can represent 3
or 4 different consonants, and then you have to add the vowels yourself to get
the translation. After all this "guess work", you may find you are completely
off the mark, after another scholar has a crack at the same inscription:-) So,
needless to say, I don't these as exact sciences:--)
I am just trying to exercise a little common sense logic to these names; so I
remain open to correction:-) However, the name Mani is going to be a tough nut
to chew up and spit out any other rationale explanation:-) I have no delusion
of ever being able to reconstruct an acceptable lineage from Septimius
Odenathus to any Scandinavian dynasty, or Anglo-Saxon for that matter, but I
feel I can show that the legendary Odin was at one time a real and powerful
man, that became deified in the course of time. There are two Scandinavian
poems that recount a lineage of 27 generations back to Odin, and after playing
with the mean average between generations; I can show that "Odin" would have
flourished at the same time as Septimius Odenathus.
Best Wishes,
Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Francisco Antonio Doria" <franciscoa...@yahoo.com.br>
To: "Phil Moody" <moody...@cox.net>; <gen-med...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 4:39 AM
Subject: Re: Cleopatra to Zenobia to Theodora to Charlemagne/Valhalla
norenxaq
>
> I am just trying to exercise a little common sense logic to these names; so I
> remain open to correction:-) However, the name Mani is going to be a tough nut
> to chew up and spit out any other rationale explanation:-) I have no delusion
> of ever being able to reconstruct an acceptable lineage from Septimius
> Odenathus to any Scandinavian dynasty, or Anglo-Saxon for that matter, but I
> feel I can show that the legendary Odin was at one time a real and powerful
> man, that became deified in the course of time. There are two Scandinavian
> poems that recount a lineage of 27 generations back to Odin, and after playing
> with the mean average between generations; I can show that "Odin" would have
> flourished at the same time as Septimius Odenathus.
>
> Best Wishes,
> Phil
Hello:
What are the names of these poems?
Have they been translated into english?
thank-you
Phil Moody
>
> What are the names of these poems?
>
> Have they been translated into english?
>
> thank-you
PLM: From Snorri's "Preface" we read:
"Thjodolf of Hvin was the skald of Harald Harfager, and he composed a poem for
King Rognvald the Mountain-high, which is called "Ynglingatal."....
"Eyvind Skaldaspiller also reckoned up the ancestors of Earl Hakon the Great
in a poem called "Haleygjatal", composed about Hakon;" EQ
So, the two poems are the _Ynglingatal_ and the _Haleygjatal_. When Snorri
wrote his history, these poems were whole, but now only 15.5 verses remain of
the Haleygjatal; although I strongly suspect that a verse of the Ynglingatal
actually belongs to the Haleygjatal. I do not know if the Ynglingatal is
complete, or in English (I have not looked yet). However, I did find an Old
Norse scholar who kindly translated the remnants of the Haleygjatal into
English for me, and then I later learned of a thesis which also had translated
the work, after the fact. Both translations have their differences, but that's
Old Norse scholarship for you:-)
Eyvind Finnsson, aka Eyvind Skaldaspiller earned his nickname; because some
believe he copied Thjodolf of Hvin's style and form; when he wrote the
Haleygjatal. I do not share that view, but both poems do recount 27
generations, and I feel that this is the only constant I can rely on. There is
no way to document the genealogies themselves; so they are of little value to
me.
Best Wishes,
Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "norenxaq" <nore...@san.rr.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 12:53 PM
Subject: Re: Cleopatra to Zenobia to Theodora to Charlemagne/Valhalla
> >
> >
Francisco Antonio Doria
I fully agree with you, Phil. It's definitely not an
exact science - I just mentioned the fact that
Walhalla sounds like its presumed meaning, abode of
the chosen. Just en passant.
--- Phil Moody <moody...@cox.net> escreveu: > Dear
_______________________________________________________________________
Phil Moody
Jay
Hermann Paulson as well as Jesse Byock have translated a number of the
Norse sagas into English and are two of the leaders in the field who
have published in English, but are not the only ones of course.
Two sagas of interest to you may be:
Heimskringla (History of the Kings of Norway)
Saga of the Volsungs
A number of the other epics of Norway and Iceland have been translated
into English as well.
They are great tales, I have a number of the epics in English
translation in my library, but be careful in simply using them as
genealogical sources, except if saying "according to legend the
ancestor of X......"
Jay
norenxaq
>
> Hermann Paulson as well as Jesse Byock have translated a number of the
> Norse sagas into English and are two of the leaders in the field who
> have published in English, but are not the only ones of course.
>
> Two sagas of interest to you may be:
>
> Heimskringla (History of the Kings of Norway)
> Saga of the Volsungs
>
> A number of the other epics of Norway and Iceland have been translated
> into English as well.
>
> They are great tales, I have a number of the epics in English
> translation in my library, but be careful in simply using them as
> genealogical sources, except if saying "according to legend the
> ancestor of X......"
>
> Jay
understood
thank-you
Phil Moody
I'm referring to Skaldic verse; which predates the prose works by many
centuries - in some instances. The Skaldic poetry has more historical value to
me; because it is more contemporaneous than the later works which were spun
off of these poems.
Cheers,
Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jay" <heli...@yahoo.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 7:57 PM
Subject: Re: Cleopatra to Zenobia to Theodora to Charlemagne/Valhalla
Phil Moody
Title Earl Hákon and his poets /
Author Davidson, Daphne Loe.
Publisher 1983
Description 2 v. (iii, 680 leaves, [1] leaf of plates) : map ; 31 cm
Notes BLDSC reference no.: D49590/84
Thesis (D.Phil.)--University of Oxford, 1983
Bibliography: leaves 668-680
Subjects Sigurðarson, Hakon, Earl, d. 995--Art patronage
Old Norse poetry--History and criticism
Other Names University of Oxford. Faculty of English Language and
Literature. Thesis.
Location Call Number Status
Bodleian BOD Bookstack MS. D.Phil. c.4677 (v. 1) In place
Bodleian BOD Bookstack MS. D.Phil. c.4678 (v. 2) In place
PLM: If you can't visit Oxford - the thesis is available from the Brittish
Thesis Service.
> is there a way one coud get a copy of these genealogies?
PLM: You should be able to find it readily on the web, as I did. There are
printed sources as well.
_Corpus Poeticum Boreale_ II.522. I'm not sure who sent me the following
information, but it looks interesting:-)
"If you are interested in a detailed history of these sources, then you may
want to read an article in _Sjötíu ritgerðir helgaðar Jakobi Benediktssyni_
pp.177-190: Anthony Faulkes, "The genealogies and regnal lists in a manuscript
in Resen's library". I quote from it:
...The compilation as a whole is the oldest one of its kind to survive from
medieval Iceland (though only recorded in a late copy), and is for instance
the earliest record of the genealogy of the Háleygjajarlar, and for the list
of Skjöldungar might be considered to have equal authority with Arngrímur
Jónsson's account of Skjöldunga saga. The lists of Skjöldungar, Ynglingar, and
Háleygjajarlar on the second page of Resen's compilation were presumably
derived from _Skjöldunga saga_ (or conceivably from a written genealogy also
used by the author of the saga), _Ynglingatal_, and Háleygjatal_....
The list of Háleygjajarlar in Resen's manuscript was identical with that given
by Torfaeus in _Historia rerum Norvegicarum_ (Hafniae 1711), I, 146, except
that it adds the two names Eiricr and Hacon at the end. (* e.g. it has the
forms Svegþir and Domalldr; and Alrecr comes before Agni. Cf. S. Ellehøj,
_Studier over den oeldste Norrone historieskrivning_, Kbh. 1965, pp. 109-128)
If _Háleygjatal_ really made Saemingr son of Yngvi-Freyr, as Snorri states in
his prologue to _Heimskringla_, then in this detail too _Ynglinga saga_ and
the prologue to _Snorra Edda_, which make him son of Óðinn, agree with the
list in Resen's manuscript against the poetic source." EQ
We have:
01). Earl Hákon inn Riki (d.995), son of
02). Earl Sigurd, son of
03). Earl Hákon, son of [here I append the line from Luke Steven's site,
#'s mine]
04). GRJOTGARD, son of
05). Herlaug, son of
06). Harald, son of
07). Thrand, son of
08). Harald Trygill, son of
09). Havar, son of
10). Hergils, son of
11). Bard, son of
12). Brynjolf, son of
13). Brand, son of
14). Hersir, son of
15). Mundill Gamli, son of
16). Gudlaug, son of
17). Gylaug, son of
18). Heimgest, son of
19). Godgest, son of
20). Havar Handrami, son of
21). Vedrhall, son of
22). Himinleyg, son of
23). Hodbrodd, son of
24). Sverdhjallt, son of
25). Godhjallt, son of
26). Saeming, son of
27). Odin.
Best Wishes,
Phil