Early Welfs and Azzo II
mike
is there an accepted line of descent between Welf I father of Judith &
Welf II (d.1035)?
Also what is the evidence often quoted in the archives that Azzo II
of Este (d.1097) was born in 997?
cheers
mike
Peter Stewart
"mike" <dmik...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1171991204.7...@k78g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> is there an accepted line of descent between Welf I father of Judith &
> Welf II (d.1035)?
Accepted maybe, but there are links in the chain of descent that are not
proven by direct evidence.
> Also what is the evidence often quoted in the archives that Azzo II
> of Este (d.1097) was born in 997?
In 996 or 997 - Bernold of Constance, a contemporary chronicler, wrote that
Duke Welf's father Azzo died in 1097 reputedly aged over 100 ("Azzo marchio
de Longobardia, pater Welfonis ducis de Baiowaria, iam maior centenario ut
aiunt, viam universae terrae arripuit"). From memory this is corroborated by
a description of him as almost 100 when he was at Pavia with Clement III
early in 1096.
Peter Stewart
mike
> "mike" <dmike...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message>
> > is there an accepted line of descent between Welf I father of Judith &
> > Welf II (d.1035)?
>
> Accepted maybe, but there are links in the chain of descent that are not
> proven by direct evidence.
>
Specifically which of these generations are doubtful (or are they all
legendary?):
1 Welf 819 m. Heilwig later Abbess of Chelles 825
2 Conrad Count of Auxerre d. after 862 (brother of Empress Judith)
m. Aelis (dau of Hugo of Tours)
3 Welf I Count of Argengau & Linzgau d. by 876 (some say son of
Rudolf,
Conrad's brother)
4 Eticho Count of Ammergau d. c910
5 Henry with the Golden Wagon d c934 m. Ava of Hohenwart (d. by 975,
illeg. dau of Emperor Arnulf)
6 Rudolf I d. c940
7 Rudolf II count of Altdorf d 992 m. Ita, dau of Count Kuno von
Oeningen
8 Henry Count of Altdorf, d c1000
9 Welf II Count of Lechrain d 1030 m. Imiza of Gleiberg (or Irmtrude
dau of Frederick of Luxemburg?)
10 Welf III Duke of Carinthia d 1055
Is it significant that the name Welf, supposedly the name of the
dynasty
does not occur again until the 11th century? When is Welf or Guelf
first
used to describe this family? I've read that it was under Henry the
Lion
in the 12th century.
> > Also what is the evidence often quoted in the archives that Azzo II
> > of Este (d.1097) was born in 997?
>
> In 996 or 997 - Bernold of Constance, a contemporary chronicler, wrote that
> Duke Welf's father Azzo died in 1097 reputedly aged over 100 ("Azzo marchio
> de Longobardia, pater Welfonis ducis de Baiowaria, iam maior centenario ut
> aiunt, viam universae terrae arripuit"). From memory this is corroborated by
> a description of him as almost 100 when he was at Pavia with Clement III
> early in 1096.
>
thanks very much
mike
taf
> 5 Henry with the Golden Wagon d c934 m. Ava of Hohenwart (d. by 975,
> illeg. dau of Emperor Arnulf)
I am not aware of any evidence for the marriage of Henry to an
illegitimate daughter of Arnulf, or of anyone to such an illegitimate
daughter, for that matter. (Why would such a daughter be "of
Hohenwart" anyhow?) I think someone just made this up.
taf
mike
> On Feb 27, 8:00 am, "mike" <dmike...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > 5 Henry with the Golden Wagon d c934 m. Ava of Hohenwart (d. by 975,
> > illeg. dau of Emperor Arnulf)
Actually I think this should be Golden Plough to make any sense.
Apparently the story is in Saxo Grammaticus 1126, says my reference
(i've not seen it), and is set under Louis the Pious! Not much hope
there
then.
>
> I am not aware of any evidence for the marriage of Henry to an
> illegitimate daughter of Arnulf, or of anyone to such an illegitimate
> daughter, for that matter. (Why would such a daughter be "of
> Hohenwart" anyhow?) I think someone just made this up.
>
> taf
Agree. i think there are 2 sources for the early welfs. One just says
Henry married Atha. The other says he married Beata of Hohenwarth.
it seems there are many theories who she was. I've found shes been
seen as:
1) Ellinratha the illegitimate daughter of Emperor Arnulf
2) an illegitimate daughter of Duke Arnulf of Bavaria
3) a daughter of Ratpot (of Hohenwarth ) c880. He is seen as the
ancestor
of a family in the Tyrol.
Mike
(sorry if this came through twice, connection broke)
Peter Stewart
> On Feb 24, 3:27 am, "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stew...@msn.com> wrote:
>> "mike" <dmike...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message>
>
>> > is there an accepted line of descent between Welf I father of Judith &
>> > Welf II (d.1035)?
>>
>> Accepted maybe, but there are links in the chain of descent that are not
>> proven by direct evidence.
>>
>
> Specifically which of these generations are doubtful (or are they all
> legendary?):
The generations below are historical, not legendary, but not all of them are
proved by direct statements in contemporary sources.
> 1 Welf 819 m. Heilwig later Abbess of Chelles 825
>
> 2 Conrad Count of Auxerre d. after 862 (brother of Empress Judith)
> m. Aelis (dau of Hugo of Tours)
>
> 3 Welf I Count of Argengau & Linzgau d. by 876 (some say son of
> Rudolf, Conrad's brother)
This is one of the links I meant.
> 4 Eticho Count of Ammergau d. c910
>
> 5 Henry with the Golden Wagon d c934 m. Ava of Hohenwart (d. by 975,
> illeg. dau of Emperor Arnulf)
>
> 6 Rudolf I d. c940
>
> 7 Rudolf II count of Altdorf d 992 m. Ita, dau of Count Kuno von
> Oeningen
This is another - Rudolf II's exact placement in the family is not
established.
> 8 Henry Count of Altdorf, d c1000
>
> 9 Welf II Count of Lechrain d 1030 m. Imiza of Gleiberg (or Irmtrude
> dau of Frederick of Luxemburg?)
>
> 10 Welf III Duke of Carinthia d 1055
>
> Is it significant that the name Welf, supposedly the name of the
> dynasty does not occur again until the 11th century? When is Welf or Guelf
> first used to describe this family? I've read that it was under Henry the
> Lion in the 12th century.
I don't think this is significant - the history and genealogy of the Welfs
were written at Henry the Lion's court, but as far as I recall the name Welf
is only given in these sources to individuals, not to the family. European
historians have used leading names to label many dynasties, eg Carolingians,
Liudolfings, Etichonids, but this was not necessarily the way these families
were known in the middle ages. The term "Welf" other than for particular men
probably came into common usage only with the division between Guelf and
Ghibelline factions in Italy, I suppose.
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
> On Feb 27, 6:07 pm, "taf" <farme...@interfold.com> wrote:
>> On Feb 27, 8:00 am, "mike" <dmike...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> > 5 Henry with the Golden Wagon d c934 m. Ava of Hohenwart (d. by 975,
>> > illeg. dau of Emperor Arnulf)
>
> Actually I think this should be Golden Plough to make any sense.
> Apparently the story is in Saxo Grammaticus 1126, says my reference
> (i've not seen it), and is set under Louis the Pious! Not much hope
> there
> then.
Not Saxo Grammaticus but Annalista Saxo, under 1126 as you say. This account
was written in the mid-12th century and is scarcely plausible apart from
drastic errors in the chronology and personages involved. The story is that
Henry was offered possession of all the land he could encircle with a plough
in the hour of midday. He had a golden model made and using relays of horses
managed to gallop a long way while the emperor was taking a nap at noon - so
he was granted the entire tract.
>>
>> I am not aware of any evidence for the marriage of Henry to an
>> illegitimate daughter of Arnulf, or of anyone to such an illegitimate
>> daughter, for that matter. (Why would such a daughter be "of
>> Hohenwart" anyhow?) I think someone just made this up.
>>
>> taf
>
> Agree. i think there are 2 sources for the early welfs. One just says
> Henry married Atha. The other says he married Beata of Hohenwarth.
> it seems there are many theories who she was. I've found shes been
> seen as:
>
> 1) Ellinratha the illegitimate daughter of Emperor Arnulf
>
> 2) an illegitimate daughter of Duke Arnulf of Bavaria
>
> 3) a daughter of Ratpot (of Hohenwarth ) c880. He is seen as the
> ancestor of a family in the Tyrol.
We have nothing to go by except that Henry's wife is called Atha in one
12th-century source that gives no further information (but is supported as
to her name by an earlier charter), and Beata in another 12th-century
document that otherwise copies from the first but adds she was from
Hohenwarth in Bavaria.
The conjecture, elaborated by Hansmartin Decker-Hauff, making Henry's wife
Atha/Beata of Hohenwarth into Emperor Arnulf's alleged daughter Ellinrat is
frankly absurd - the chronology is stretched near to breaking point, and the
names are not connected as claimed - Atha, or Ata, appears in other
instances to have been a familiar form from Beata, not short for
"Ellinratha". Besides, we don't know for sure that Arnulf was the father of
his concubine Ellinrat's junior namesake, presumably her daughter but not
called his when this would have been expected, in a diploma confirming an
exchange in 914 of some property rights bestowed by Arnulf on his mistress,
where the younger Ellinrat is not identified as anyone's daughter or wife.
Peter Stewart
Roger LeBlanc
accepted that the grandfather of Welf II was the Rudolf who married Ita,
by their son Henry (d. c 1000)?
Roger LeBlanc
Peter Stewart
"Roger LeBlanc" <lebl...@mts.net> wrote in message
news:mailman.164.11738164...@rootsweb.com...
> Just to return to this subject for a little clarification, is it accepted
> that the grandfather of Welf II was the Rudolf who married Ita, by their
> son Henry (d. c 1000)?
No - Henry had no children, and apparently no wife, when he was killed in a
hunting accident. Welf II was his brother, a younger son of Rudolf and Ita.
Peter Stewart
Roger LeBlanc
all. I note that Leo's Genealogics and the Roglo database (my two
standbys) both show Welf II as the son of Rudolf and Ita.
Roger LeBlanc
PIPPHI...@aol.com
primarily on descent-line recorded by Carr P. Collins in his "Royal
Ancestors"
00. Azio, ancestor of the Actii gens, fl. BC
from whom descends
01. Caius Actius, a Roman senator
02. Marcus Actius, a provincial governor
03. Aurelianus, governor of Gaul 414, Britain 418, & Spain 421 (d424)
04. Lucius "Hiberius"/or "Tiberius"/or "Liberius" (d473), bro of
Marcus (d472)
= [name], sister of Foresto "the Hector of Italy" (d452)
05. Alphansius (d493)
= Aviena
06. Marinus (d538)
= [name], sister of Byzantine Exarch Narses
07. St. Boniface (d556)
08. Valerian, Prince of Feltro (d590)
= Cesara, dau of Byzantine Emperor Tiberius II
09. Adalberto [I] (d630)
= Severa, sister of Pope Severinus (d640)
10. Gundelhard (d682)
= Avenia, daughter of Pope Severinus (d640)
11. Heribert (d694)
= Rufina, dau of Gennadius (647)
12. Ernest (d752)
13. Henry, Prince of Tervis (d780)
14. Boniface [I], Count/Duke of Tuscany (813)
15. Berengarius (d840), bro of Boniface II (d834/8)
16. Otto (d898), bro of Hugh I
= Willa of Lucca
17. Guido di Lucca (d929)
18. Siegfried (954), bro of Oberto I [Albert] (d962)
= Gisela of Milan
19. Ezzo I, Marq. of Este 961 (d974), bro of Adalberto II, Count of
Canossa (d982), & Hugh II
= Ermengarde, dau of Huberto II of Tuscany
20. Oberto II [Albert], Count of Genoa (d995), bro of Thibaut of Este
= Railinde, dau of Riprandi, Count of Comersee, son of Olderado of
Comersee & Railinde, dau of Auprando of Lombards
21. Hugh III, Count of Vienne (d1041), bro of Adalberto II, & Ezzo,
Marq. of Ligurie (d1029)
= Valdrada, dau of Pietro Candiano [IV], Doge of Venice
22. EZZO II, Marquis of Este (d1097)
=1 Chuniza, dau of Welf II, Dk of Bavaria
=2 Vitalia, dau of Otto Orseolo, Doge of Venice
=3 Arsenda, dau of Hugh II, Count of Maine
by 1
23. Welf IV/I, Dk of Bavaria, ancestor of the Hanoverians
Peter Stewart
of nonsense. It scarcely even approximates to historical & genealogical
realities at a single point in the 24 generations, while flagrantly
contradicting established facts along the way.
Anyone tempted to use the work of Carr P. Collins Jr would improve their
chances of hitting on correct information by throwing this book away, and/or
deleting the web link.
Peter Stewart
<PIPPHI...@AOL.com> wrote in message
news:1173988486.0...@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
PIPPHI...@aol.com
> SGM readers will hardly need to be told that the lineage below is a tissue
> of nonsense. It scarcely even approximates to historical & genealogical
> realities at a single point in the 24 generations, while flagrantly
> contradicting established facts along the way.
>
> Anyone tempted to use the work of Carr P. Collins Jr would improve their
> chances of hitting on correct information by throwing this book away, and/or
> deleting the web link.
>
> Peter Stewart
You presume to speak for all SGM readers, remarkable! Carr P. Collins'
documentation for this lineage is "Royal Genealogies", pps, 514 and
666; so what is your opinion of his source? I think "Royal
Genealogies" with all of its problems is still a far better source
than you!
WJho...@aol.com
In a message dated 3/17/2007 1:20:49 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
PIPPHI...@aol.com writes:
You presume to speak for all SGM readers, remarkable! Carr P. Collins'
documentation for this lineage is "Royal Genealogies", pps, 514 and
666; so what is your opinion of his source? I think "Royal
Genealogies" with all of its problems is still a far better source
than you!
I'm fairly sure Peter only speaks for Peter. That doesn't stop him from
having strong opinions. As you well know "Royal Genealogies" is only as good as
their research. When secondary sources conflict, you cannot solve the
problem by consulting more weak secondary sources, esp ones that have as their
main goal to connect people in new and surprising ways.
A better approach would be to consult some of the underlying sources listed
and see what they say. I would suggest that if this line were actually
accurate, we'd have seen a great deal more of it.
Will Johnson
************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone.
Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com.
Peter Stewart
<PIPPHI...@AOL.com> wrote in message
news:1174162563.9...@p15g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
I'm not speaking "for" anyone but myself.
Carr P Collins Jr has produced a farrago of rubbish. If you wish to dispute
that, go ahead. It is a matter of fact and details, not of opinion.
The fantasy male line you presented from his worthless book started with
"Azio...fl. BC" and ended 23 generations later with Welf, duke of Bavaria,
who was born in the late 1030s and died in 1101. Work it out for yourself -
the average age of fathers at the birth of the alleged sons listed must be
close to 50 years over more than 1,000 years. This is ridiculous to any
sensible person who knows how human beings couple & reproduce, without
knowing anything of the specific persons & history involved.
And as I said, established facts are flagrantly contradicted, quite apart
from the absurdity of the misinformation that is given.
The bibliography for Collins' work is laughable. The sources for medieval
history and genealogy are MEDEIVAL WRITINGS, not Collins and not me. He did
not list any of these, but only an ill-chosen assortment of modern
publiscations.
Peter Stewart
mike
> > documentation for this lineage is "Royal Genealogies", pps, 514 and
> > 666;
> The fantasy male line you presented from his worthless book started with
> "Azio...fl. BC" and ended 23 generations later with Welf, duke of Bavaria
I've seen this line as well but not the Royal Gen book. Does the
author say
where he got it from? I just wonder when it was first produced: was
it
concocted for the Welfs in the 12th century or for the Este family in
the renaissance?
thanks
mike
WJho...@aol.com
it appears someone has extracted the entire book to webpages.
PIPPHI...@aol.com
> The bibliography for Collins' work is laughable.
me
exactly which entries in Carr P Collin's bibliography for his book
"Royal Ancestors" do you find laughable? googling your name, i see
that you yourself have referrred to some of his sources in the past to
support some of your own contentions, and judging from your posts you
yourself appear not to be a nice person especially unsuitable for
polite society
pip
Peter Stewart
<PIPPHI...@AOL.com> wrote in message
news:1174588803....@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> Peter Stewart wrote
>> The bibliography for Collins' work is laughable.
> ---------------------
> me
> exactly which entries in Carr P Collin's bibliography for his book
> "Royal Ancestors" do you find laughable?
It is laughable for WHAT IS LACKING - that is, any medieval sources AT ALL,
and virtually no recent scholarly works.
> googling your name, i see
> that you yourself have referrred to some of his sources in the past to
> support some of your own contentions,
So? His bibliography included CP, that can't very well be ignored in this
field of study. Also Isenburg's Stammtafeln - apart from those I'm not aware
of any that might have come up in my posts. This is beside the point - the
problem is rather with the primary sources and secondary works that Carr P
COllins Jr did NOT CONSULT.
> and judging from your posts you
> yourself appear not to be a nice person especially unsuitable for
> polite society
I don't wish to be "nice", but if you want to start insulting people here
about their fitness for genealogical discourse you had better try to earn
some modicum of credibility first.
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
I'm not sure of the origin of this fiction, but I think it was elaborated if
not invented by Giovan Baptista Pigna in _Historia dei principi d'Este_
(Ferrara, 1570).
These phoney lineages were a dime-a-dozen - perhaps more about PR than
pedigree, not always expected to be literally credited so much as to convey
prestige & values by association with the role played by whatever family in
ancient Roman history. The previous Welf dynasty was supposed to be
descended from the Catuli, and from memory this was supposed somehow to
explain their leading name "Welf".
The great historian Muratori established the much shorter history of the
second dynasty on firmer ground in the first volume of _Delle antichità
estensi ed italiane_ (Modena, 1717, reprinted in facsimile Bologna, 1984).
If you want to know more about the fictional ancestry, this was discussed by
Gregori Luca in _Genealogie estensi e falsificazione epigrafica_ (Rome,
1990). I haven't seen this.
Peter Stewart
PIPPHI...@aol.com
so? ...
me
so! you're nuts!
you
i'm not sure of the origin of this fiction, but I think it was
elaborated if
not invented by Giovan Baptista Pigna in _Historia dei principi
d'Este_
(Ferrara, 1570)
- no it was not - according to worldcat there is not a library in this
whole country that has this book in its collection - you must have
gotten that reference off the internet
- if you have access to this book, prove it - quote the first line of
page one - it is fortunate that i have an italian duke as a pen-pal
who has this book in his personal library and can support me on this
- i see through your ruse, you are just throwing out titles of books
you've never even seen in hope that one will stick, very deceptive
- the only thing laughable is that you fancy yourself to be a scholar
pip phillips
Peter Stewart
<PIPPHI...@AOL.com> wrote in message
news:1174772969.3...@y66g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
A rational person would have understood the following:
1. I may not be in your country (I am in Australia)
2. About the reference to Pigna I said "I think...", explicitly not the same
as "I know for a fact... " (I am always careful to make such distinctions)
3. If I had made the categorical statement that you are misrepresenting,
your unsupported assertions of what is NOT in Pigna's book and about what
support you can obtain are of no more value in an Internet discussion group
than whatever unsupported assertions you may imagine you are ranting against
4. Anyone can travel and consult books outside their country of residence
anyway, so that World Cat - if it worked properly to start with - would not
be not a reliable basis for accusing someone of deception, even if you
hadn't foolishly overlooked the import of "I think" in my post.
But then a rational person would have stopped well before now to ponder the
chronological absurdity of the lineage you found in Carr P Collins Jr (and
why rely on him in the first place, with an Italian ducal library at your
vicarious disposal?) rather than remaining hysterical in defense of wishful
thinking.
The basis for my mentioning Pigna in this context was simple: Muratori is
celebrated for having written the first history of the Estensi based on
sound evidence and scholarly principles, while Pigna had written the major
work on this family before his time. I have a copy of Muratori's work, but
not of Pigna's that is of vanishingly little interest to me. If Pigna did
not elaborate the fictional line to the Anicii, that still survives in
circulation despite Muratori, perhaps you or your silent ducal buddy can
tell us exactly what ancestry he did give.
Then you might explain why you preferred to follow Carr P. Collins Jr in
your first post rather than Pigna or Muratori.
Peter Stewart
WJho...@aol.com
In a message dated 3/24/2007 2:50:39 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
PIPPHI...@aol.com writes:
- if you have access to this book, prove it - quote the first line of
page one - it is fortunate that i have an italian duke as a pen-pal
who has this book in his personal library and can support me on this
Well then that's settled isn't it!
I happen to have an Italian duke living under my front porch, I'll just run
out and ask him!
Will
Peter Stewart
<WJho...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.609.11747905...@rootsweb.com...
>
> In a message dated 3/24/2007 2:50:39 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
> PIPPHI...@aol.com writes:
>
> - if you have access to this book, prove it - quote the first line of
> page one - it is fortunate that i have an italian duke as a pen-pal
> who has this book in his personal library and can support me on this
>
>
>
> Well then that's settled isn't it!
> I happen to have an Italian duke living under my front porch, I'll just
> run
> out and ask him!
While you are at it Will, check to see if your Italian duke's private
library holdings appear on WorldCat - if not, he is clearly a liar and a
nut.
Then maybe ask him if he understands "I'm not sure of the origin of this
fiction, but I think....", in case he can explain what this means through
his compeer to the latter's penfriend.
Lastly, ensure that he is not aiming to prove himself an idiot as well as a
fool like PIPPHILLIPS18 - who can stop now, as we are convinced already.
Peter Stewart
PIPPHI...@aol.com
so, when cornered you resort to insults; a tactic I have seen before.
my, I did not realize that I was engaging such giddy imbeciles as
Peter Stewart and Will Johnson. I don't think I have ever encountered
such buffoonery before. nothing constructive can come of this, so I
will leave you two clowns to your own self-delusions that you actually
matter. if, there is anyone out there that would like to discuss the
Este ancestry in a civilized manner I would welcome your input.
pip phillips
Peter Stewart
<PIPPHI...@AOL.com> wrote in message
news:1174859857....@y66g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
My "We" encompassed any & all sensible readers of this thread.
The first insults in it were demonstrably from YOU - telling me I was not
fit for polite society and then that I am "nuts".
What you misperceive as insults from me before these gratuitous attacks were
just trenchant comments on the rubbish that you had posted, not personal
remarks.
You haven't "cornered" anyone but yourself.
Peter Stewart
WJho...@aol.com
In a message dated 3/25/2007 3:00:38 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
PIPPHI...@aol.com writes:
Peter Stewart and Will Johnson. I don't think I have ever encountered
such buffoonery before. nothing constructive can come of this, so I
will leave you two clowns to your own self-delusions that you actually
matter. if, there is anyone out there that would like to discuss the
Este ancestry in a civilized manner
Maybe that Italian Count you have hiding in your pocket. I'm sure he has
some sort of family manuscript passed down for 800 years but never before
published that could tie your line into a descent from Dagobert or Claudius or
Noah or something.
Will Johnson
the_ver...@comcast.net
> Maybe that Italian Count you have hiding in your pocket. I'm sure he has
> some sort of family manuscript passed down for 800 years but never before
> published that could tie your line into a descent from Dagobert or Claudius or
> Noah or something.
>
> Will Johnson
Now really Will!
Everyone knows that if you can connect to Claudius you have a direct
line back to Noah !
;)
Of course, Dagobert's wife is also a descendant of Noah's sister.....
Peter Stewart
Thank you for the elucidations - I wish I could afford to keep my own
Italian duke to verify these ancient lineages, but I have heard they
are almost impossible to house train and I won't risk my carpets.
As far as the Phillips person is concerned, we are treading on the
toes of necessity - he/she needs to have the pip with Will and me as
an excuse for not admitting that a male line of 23 generations over
1,000+ years is absurd, and also to avoid telling the newsgroup what
pedigree Pigna did actually give for the Estensi if not the fictitious
one that I supposed (and, for want of ducal proof, still suppose).
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
Well, Pip Phillips and/or the italian duke have some fancy explaining
to do -
Go to the catalogue of the National Central Library in Florence at
then click on the link "Frontesprizio e Indice". The frontispiece is
the title page of Pigna's book, _Historia de principi di Este_
(Ferrara, 1570) that I supposed gave the fictitious descent of the
Estensi from ancient Rome, and Image 3 is the summary of Book 1 in
this.
Details are scanty, but note that the early history of the House of
Este includes such luminaries Aurelius, "figliuolo" of Caius Atius.
Refer back to the misinformation from Carr P Collins Jr posted by
Phillips on 16 March, where at the head of the fictitious lineage in
question can be found:
01. Caius Actius, a Roman senator
02. Marcus Actius, a provincial governor
03. Aurelianus, governor of Gaul 414, Britain 418, & Spain 421 (d424)
Ho hum.
I see that Senator Caius 01 was only stated to be descended from
"Azio, ancestor of the Actii gens, fl. BC" so that the chronology is
not as ridiculous as would be an unbroken line - here we have 22
generations over around 750 years, averaging ca 34 years per
generation. I wonder why Pip Phillips didn't point this out.
According to the Carr P. Collins website, "Caius Actius lived in 390
and had his residence in the old Castle of Este in the Dukedom of
Venice in Italy". I wonder if the titled penpal of Pip Phillips is the
current "duke of Venice".
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
I am advised that this link will no longer go directly to the record
of the book - anyone wanting to follow this should click on the
"Nuovo" button at the left of the screen, then in the search fields
enter "Pigna" as author and "Historia" as title, then click on
"Ricerca" to bring up the book and the link to the page images.
Peter Stewart