Goodere (Goodyear) Threads - latin support

[Kevan Barton via]

Folks,



My latin is non-sensible to say the least and I'm hoping I can get a thumbs
up and advice on where to take these three lines.



Source "Monken Hadley", by Frecerick Charles CASS, M.A.



He provides three Latin sentences that appear to be sourced from Harl. MS
1424 f. 140b.



1 - "Dns Ricardus Goodere de Pointon alias dictus Dns de Pointon. Habuit
exitum p - Annam filiam Thomae Dni de Clune" (Late 13th, early 14th
century)



I get, and please correct if not, "Lord Richard Goodere of Pointon, termed
Lord of Pointon. Having wife Anna, daughter of Thomas, lord, de Clune."
Okay not a literal translation, but I think it works?



Questions:



Who is Thomas, lord of Clune? Are they of Clune, or is this their surname?
And, any idea as to which Pointon we're talking about? Is there a "Clune"?




2 - "Thomas Goodere Dns de Pointon, qui mortuus est in Scotia, et seppultus
apud Boness iuxta Burgh, super Sabolones, in Cumbria. A ultimo E.I. 1307, et
habuit exitum p'Johanam f. Dni de Mawley in com. Eborac."



I get something like (and, by the way, Thomas is the son of the above
Richard), "Thomas Goodere, lord de Pointon, died in Scotland and buried at
Bowness near Burgh-on-Sands, Cumbria, 1307. And has wife Johanna, daughter
of lord de Mawley in county York." Coat of arms for Mawley is 'or, and a
fess sable (so not of the Morleys). The gen armory calls them "Malo Luca".




Any details on this Mawley family? And, from whence they arise?



3 - "Richardus de Goodiere, qui duxit filiam et heredem Thornbury de Midd.
Et Agnetem, uniq.-cohaeredem Domini de Dereham 1 E.3 (Conf Harl. MS. 1505 f.
139.7.E.3)



I get something like (but pieces missing) , "Richard de Goodere, who is ....
son and heir of Thornbury of Middlesex. And has Agnes (wife), coheir of the
Lord of Dereham, 1E.3."



Any help on this one? Which Dereham, Deryham, do you suppose we are
talking about?



The above is three successive generations.



Cheers,

Kevan

[Richard Smith]

On 01/01/16 19:22, Kevan Barton via wrote:

> 1 - "Dns Ricardus Goodere de Pointon alias dictus Dns de Pointon.
> Habuit exitum p - Annam filiam Thomae Dni de Clune" (Late 13th,
> early 14th century)
>
> I get, and please correct if not, "Lord Richard Goodere of Pointon,
> termed Lord of Pointon. Having wife Anna, daughter of Thomas, lord,
> de Clune." Okay not a literal translation, but I think it works?

I'd go with "Lord Richard Goodere of Pointon, otherwise called Lord of
Pointon, had issue with Anne, daughter of Thomas, Lord of Clune". But
not that 'dominus' can be translated in a variety of ways, including
'Sir' and as the holder of a bachelor's degree. It doesn't actually say
Anne (not Anna: that's the Latinised name) was his wife, though it's
clearly implied.

> Who is Thomas, lord of Clune? Are they of Clune, or is this their
> surname?

Ordinarily I'd suggest it's say he was lord of Clune (wherever that is),
perhaps in a feudal sense rather than a peerage, but see below.

> And, any idea as to which Pointon we're talking about?

Probably Poynton in Cheshire. There seems to have been a Goodyer family
there:

https://sites.google.com/site/tonygibsonfamilyhistory/ancestors-of-william-littlejohn-peet/ancestors-of-matthew-wildbore-iv/ancestors-of-dorothy-wilmer/the-goodyer-family-of-warwickshire-and-their-ancestors

> Is there a "Clune"?

The page referenced above suggests it should read 'Clare', and the
source refers to Thomas de Clare, son of Richard de Clare, 6th Earl of
Gloucester.

> 2 - "Thomas Goodere Dns de Pointon, qui mortuus est in Scotia, et seppultus
> apud Boness iuxta Burgh, super Sabolones, in Cumbria. A ultimo E.I. 1307, et
> habuit exitum p'Johanam f. Dni de Mawley in com. Eborac."

Don't pay attention to what might appear to be the sentences in this.
"A ultimo E.I 1307" ("at the death of E[dward] I, 1307", I think, rather
than "in the last [year of the reign of] Edward I, 1307") is not the
start of a new sentence.

> Coat of arms for Mawley is 'or, and a fess sable (so not of the
> Morleys). The gen armory calls them "Malo Luca".

The Dictionary of British Arms: Medieval Ordinary (vol 3, p 296) has
'or, a fess sable' as the Maule family arms; it cites two of Calveley's
(lost) books, dating to the 14th and 15th century. I wouldn't trust
Burke's General Armory very far, so it's good to have it confirmed in a
more reputable source.

> Any details on this Mawley family? And, from whence they arise?

Your source says Yorkshire, and Mulgrave Castle was owned by the Barons
Mauley. See Complete Peerage, 2nd Edn., vol 8, pp 554-71.

> 3 - "Richardus de Goodiere, qui duxit filiam et heredem Thornbury de
> Midd. Et Agnetem, uniq.-cohaeredem Domini de Dereham 1 E.3 (Conf
> Harl. MS. 1505 f. 139.7.E.3)
>
> I get something like (but pieces missing) , "Richard de Goodere, who
> is .... son and heir of Thornbury of Middlesex. And has Agnes (wife),
> coheir of the Lord of Dereham, 1E.3."

The verb "duxit" literally means "[he] has lead", but there's a phrase
"in matrimonium duxit" (literally: lead in marriage; or more
idiomatically, took in marriage) which is sometimes just shorted "duxit".

"Filiam" means daughter, not son, and "filiam et heredem" means she was
an heiress -- that is she had no surviving brothers. The fact that it
says "heredem" rather than "coheredem" might means she had no surviving
sisters either, but I wouldn't read too much into that.

"Uniq.-cohaeredem" must, I think, mean "sole [surviving] coheiress".
Presumably Agnes's father (or conceivably grandfather or other male
relation) died leaving two or more daughters, but the lines of all but
Agnes had become extinct.

I think it's probably saying that Richard's parents-in-law were the Lord
of Thornbury and Agnes, heir to the Lord of Dereham. Probably the Lord
of Dereham was Richard's wife's maternal grandmother, though the source
is not that explicit.

> Any help on this one? Which Dereham, Deryham, do you suppose we
> are talking about?

I would assume the town in Norfolk.

Richard

[taf]

The original actually says "A<superscript>o ultimo" so it is actually "in the last year [of the reign of]". Likewise, this is presented in tabular form and not in sentence format, with A^o ultimo beginning a new line, but as you suggest, from context it clearly goes with the information about his burial.

taf

[Richard Smith]

Thanks. I had been surprised that "ab" was written "a", and it didn't
quite match a language construct I knew; but if it actually reads "a^o",
that makes a lot more sense.

Richard

[MILLARD A.R. via]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richard Smith [mailto:ric...@ex-parrot.com]
> Sent: 04 January 2016 17:27
>
> > Is there a "Clune"?
>
> The page referenced above suggests it should read 'Clare', and the
> source refers to Thomas de Clare, son of Richard de Clare, 6th Earl of
> Gloucester.

Could it be referring to Clun in Shropshire?


Best wishes

Andrew
--
Andrew Millard - A.R.M...@durham.ac.uk
Chair, Trustees of Genuki: www.genuki.org.uk
Maintainer, Genuki Middx + London: www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/MDX/ + ../LND/
Academic Co-ordinator, Guild of One-Name Studies: www.one-name.org
Bodimeade one-name study: community.dur.ac.uk/a.r.millard/genealogy/Bodimeade/
My genealogy: community.dur.ac.uk/a.r.millard/genealogy/

[Peter Howarth]

Firstly, thank you for referring to the Dictionary of British Arms in place of Burke. In order that the archives may not mislead, I would like to point out that the arms of Mauley of Mulgrave, Yorks, were, from Piers III 1st Ld Mauley (d.1308) onwards, 'or, a bend sable' (black diagonal stripe on gold) rather than the arms found in the Calverley rolls 'or, a fess sable' (black horizontal stripe on gold). The Mauley of Mulgrave arms are found not only in more than twenty different rolls over 150 years but also on tombs and seals over six generations. They are as well attested as any mediaeval arms.

It should be remembered that rolls of arms were privately owned, and that they never constituted official records. We must therefore be prepared for errors, indeed one or two rolls are notoriously unreliable. It may be that the Calverley rolls made a mistake. Alternatively, they may refer to a different Mauley family (no Christian names are given). But in any case, I can't see that either of the arms are relevant to determining the genealogy.

Peter Howarth

[Kevan Barton via]

Richard,

Thank you kindly for the great input, and the super primer on Latin. Very
much appreciated. I'll certainly go through the suggested references and
see what it provides.

Cheers,
Kevan

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