Wills of Margaret Countess of Devon and Archbishop Courtenay
brad verity
<< Margaret (Bohun), Countess of Devon, left a will that survived and is
quoted extensively in that 1735 Ezra Cleaveland book "A genealogical history
of the noble and illustrious family of Courtenay." I'll check and see
exactly who the old Countess of Devon mentions in it - maybe there will be a
clue. I'll also check the will of Archbishop William Courtenay, Countess
Margaret's son, which also survives and has been published.>>
So I checked:
Margaret (Bohun), Countess of Devon’s will - transcribed from Cleaveland’s
1735 book “The Genealogical History of the Noble Family of Courtenay”:
“To Margaret, the Daughter of her Son Philip, she bequeathed One Hundred
Marks in Augmentation of her Portion; to William Archbishop of Canterbury,
her Son, a gilt Chalice and Miffale; to her Daughter Cobham Forty Pounds; to
her Daughter Luterel Ten Pounds; to her Daughter Engain Forty Pounds, with
two Primers and a Book called Arthur of Britain; to her Grandson the Earl of
Devon she gave all her Swans at Topfham; to her Son Philip, all the
Furniture of her Chapel, Books, Veftments, Candlefticks, &c. to her Daughter
Anne Courtenay, a Ring with a Diamond; to her son Peter, her Bed of Red and
Green per pale.”
According to CP, the Countess of Devon’s “Will dat. 28 Jan. 1390/1, pr.
1391. Inq.p.m. (1391-2) 15 Ric. II.”
1) This creates an immediate discrepancy. For also according to CP,
Margaret (Courtenay), Lady Cobham, the eldest daughter of the Countess of
Devon “She d. 2 Aug. 1385, and was bur. at Cobham. Brass and M.I.” So what
is she (as Daughter Cobham) doing receiving Forty Pounds in her mother’s
will, dated 28 Jan. 1390/1, almost 5 years after her death?
2) I got all excited, thinking that “Margaret, the Daughter of her Son
Philip,” who got a whopping 100 Pounds, might be the Margaret Courtenay who
married Sir Theobald Grenville. But date conflict once again set in - Sir
Theobald was dead by July 1381, according to Roskell, and Margaret daughter
of Philip Courtenay was not yet married when the Countess of Devon made out
her will in 1390/1. Turns out the Margaret in the will married Sir Robert
Cary, of Cockington, Devon. According to the article on Sir Robert Cary in
Roskell, he and Margaret Courtenay were married after Sep 1395 and before
1402. Also according to Roskell, Sir Philip Courtenay of Powderham, the
father of the Margaret mentioned in the Countess of Devon’s will, was
married about 1378 to Anne Wake. So, the time frame for Margaret Courtenay
Cary matches up nicely with her grandmother the Countess of Devon’s will.
Sir Robert Cary and Margaret Courtenay, by the way, are direct ancestors of
William Cary, the husband of Henry VIII’s mistress Mary Boleyn, and
brother-in-law of Queen Anne Boleyn.
3) That no mention is made of Sir John Grenville of Bideford, or of his
brother William Grenville, in the Countess of Devon’s will does not
necessarily mean the two men were not related to her. There is no mention
of Sir Hugh Courtenay of Haacomb either, and we know for a fact that he was
alive at the time and definitely the Countess of Devon’s grandson.
The following is transcribed from “William Courtenay: Archbishop of
Canterbury, 1381-1396” by Joseph Dahmus, a 1966 biography that the UCLA
Library luckily has. Mr. Dahmus has a complete transcription of the
Archbishop’s Will, which was proved on 15 Sep 1396. The Will bears no date,
but Dahmus says “the fact that the archbishop left a legacy to Edmund
Stafford who became bishop of Exeter in June 1395 and another to Waltham who
died in September limits its preparation to the summer of that year.”
“Next I leave my said sister [Dangayne (Catherine)] 200 pounds and my
moderate-sized missal bound with red satin cloth … [She receives many other
gold and silver plate from the archbishop. Dahmus says she was his favorite
sister]
“Next I leave my brother Philip 40 pounds and my best gilded cup and cover
and one ewer. Next I leave my brother Peter 40 pounds. To my sister Anna
de Courtenay I leave 20 pounds and one gilded cup with cover according to
the discretion of my executors. Next I leave my dearest child and foster
son Richard Courtenay 100 marks without any condition. I leave him also my
best miter in case he becomes a bishop.
“Next I leave my little child William Courtenay, the son of my brother
Philip, 100 marks should he live to the age of 12 years. Next I leave 100
marks to be distributed among the remaining sons and daughters of my brother
Philip according to the discretion of my executors and for their well-being.
“Next I leave Hugo Lutterell, my nephew, 100 marks and to his newly wedded
wife one gilded silver cup with cover at the discretion of my executors. I
also leave something to Hugo Stafford at the discretion of my executors. I
leave to John Lutterell 20 marks and to William Lutterell, my little son, 20
marks.”
The will goes on and on but does not mention any further family, nor does
the name Grenville appear at all.
Dahmus had this to say about the family legacies: “One may question his
sense of justice in leaving his sister Catherine money and plate in excess
of $35,000, while bequeathing his sister Anna no more than $3,500 and a
single cup, and to two other sisters apparently nothing. The archbishop
may, of course, have had good reason for remembering his sisters in so
unequal a fashion.”
1) Who are the “two other sisters” Dahmus mentions? According to CP, Lady
Cobham died 10 years before the archbishop made out his will. His sister
Elizabeth Lutterell died on 7 Aug 1395, according to CP, who took the date
from her Inq. post mortem. Perhaps Dahmus is referring to Elizabeth as one
of the two other sisters, since she died the same summer the archbishop made
out his will, but the will mentions Elizabeth’s son specifically, so it is
curious Elizabeth herself was left out. It implies the archbishop knew she
was dead or dying (or that he didn’t care for her at all). Still, Dahmus’
mention of “two other sisters” who were alive and not remembered when the
archbishop made out his will is intriguing - I wonder where Dahmus got the
information to make the comment.
2) Once again, the fact that brothers Sir John and William Grenville are not
mentioned in the archbishop’s will does not prove they are not related to
him - neither Edward, 3rd Earl of Devon or his brother Sir Hugh Courtenay of
Haacomb are mentioned either. We know both were alive in 1395 and
definitely nephews of archbishop William.
So, we're not any closer to discovering the parentage (or even existence,
which I'm beginning to question) of Margaret Courtenay, wife of Sir Theobald
Grenville. There's still a possibility she could be the daughter of the 2nd
Earl of Devon, but died before the wills of her mother and brother the
archbishop were drafted. The date of 1380 for Margaret Courtenay
Grenville's death, which was posted by Ms. Weinberg to the Courtenay Society
message board, would coincide with that possibility.
What is becoming clear is the tremendous need for a fully researched study
of the children and grandchildren of the 2nd Earl of Devon to help clear up
all the discrepancies that keep emerging. Hopefully one of the genealogical
journals or periodicals will commission one!
Best regards, -------Brad Verity
_________________________________________________________________
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Louise Staley
of Hugh Courtenay, Earl of Devon and Margaret Bohun died 2 August 1385.
Vol III, p. 344:
"He m., when a minor, and apparently very young, in 1332-33, Margaret,
1st da. of Hugh Courtenay, earl of Devon, by Margaret, da. of Humphrey
de Bohun, earl of Hertford, and granddaughter of Edward I. She d. 2 Aug
1385, and was bur. at Cobham. Brass and MI."
No corrections in Vol XIV.
C.P. shows Margaret Bohun "with will dat. 28 Jan. 1390/1, pr.
1391. Inq.p.m. (1391-2) 15 Ric. II." She died 16 December 1391, 6 years
after her daughter Margaret (Courtenay) Cobham.
In Margaret Bohun's will she leaves £40 "to her daughter Cobham" (see Brad's
post below). This will was dated January 1390/91.
Is there explanation for why Margaret Bohun would be leaving £40
to her daughter 5 years after her daughter's death?
thanks in anticipation,
Louise
"brad verity" <bat...@hotmail.com> [snipped for relevance throughout]
>
> Margaret (Bohun), Countess of Devon’s will - transcribed from Cleaveland’s
> 1735 book “The Genealogical History of the Noble Family of Courtenay”:
>
> "... to her Daughter Cobham Forty Pounds ..."
>
> According to CP, the Countess of Devon’s “Will dat. 28 Jan. 1390/1, pr.
> 1391. Inq.p.m. (1391-2) 15 Ric. II.”
>
> 1) This creates an immediate discrepancy. For also according to CP,
> Margaret (Courtenay), Lady Cobham, the eldest daughter of the Countess of
> Devon “She d. 2 Aug. 1385, and was bur. at Cobham. Brass and M.I.” So
what
> is she (as Daughter Cobham) doing receiving Forty Pounds in her mother’s
> will, dated 28 Jan. 1390/1, almost 5 years after her death?
>
Renia
> In the entry for John Cobham, C.P. shows that Margaret Courtenay, daughter
> of Hugh Courtenay, Earl of Devon and Margaret Bohun died 2 August 1385.
>
> Vol III, p. 344:
> "He m., when a minor, and apparently very young, in 1332-33, Margaret,
> 1st da. of Hugh Courtenay, earl of Devon, by Margaret, da. of Humphrey
> de Bohun, earl of Hertford, and granddaughter of Edward I. She d. 2 Aug
> 1385, and was bur. at Cobham. Brass and MI."
> No corrections in Vol XIV.
>
> C.P. shows Margaret Bohun "with will dat. 28 Jan. 1390/1, pr.
> 1391. Inq.p.m. (1391-2) 15 Ric. II." She died 16 December 1391, 6 years
> after her daughter Margaret (Courtenay) Cobham.
>
> In Margaret Bohun's will she leaves £40 "to her daughter Cobham" (see Brad's
> post below). This will was dated January 1390/91.
>
> Is there explanation for why Margaret Bohun would be leaving £40
> to her daughter 5 years after her daughter's death?
At a guess, because the will was written before her daughter died?
Renia
Louise Staley
Yes, that would have been my starting point but Margaret Cobham died in 1385
whereas her mother's will was dated January 1390/91 and the mother died
December 1391. Of course, having not seen the original will, I don't know
how reliable the date on it is. All the dates do come from C.P. though.
Louise
"Renia" <PSim...@cwcom.net> wrote in message
Renia
Renia