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Neville of Pickhill and Rolleston
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John Watson
Mar 14, 2016, 6:13:14 AM3/14/16
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Dear all,
A couple of weeks ago I was guilty of repeating a genealogical myth in a post to this group, namely that the Neville family of Pickhill and Rolleston were descended from Henry de Neville, chamberlain to Henry II. Later, by chance, I was looking for something else in Early Yorkshire Charters, vol. 5 and found that Clay puts forward a quite convincing case for their descent from a daughter of Gilbert de Neville, the co-founder of Tupholme priory in Lincolnshire. The descent is very briefly as follows:-
1. Losoard (? - aft. 1086)
Probaly a Breton, Domesday tenant of Odo of Bayeaux in Rigsby, Lincolnshire and Rolleston, Nottinghamshire.
2. Richard son of Losoard (? - aft. 1118)
Holding land in Rigsby of the earl of Richmond at the Lindsey Survey.
3. Rocelin son of Richard (? - aft 1150)
Granted land in Rigsby to Greenfield priory about 1150. He married an unnamed daughter of Gilbert de Neville II, the co-founder, with his brother Alan, of Tupholme priory in Lincolnshire.
4. Jollan de Neville I (c. 1150 - 1208)
Adopted his mother's family name. Married, about 1175 Amfelisa daughter of Alan fitz Roald, Constable of Richmond, who granted him Pickhill, Yorkshire. The grant was witnessed by Geoffrey, William and Walter de Neville, the three sons of Gilbert de Neville II, and no doubt Jollan's uncles. He was granted the manor of Sheerness, Kent by Richard I. Died in 1208 and was succeeded by his eldest son John. His widow was living in 1219 when she was described as Domina Amfelisa de Rolleston.
5a. John de Neville (c. 1185 - 1219)
Son and heir. He married about 1210, Isabel daughter of Robert Maulovel, widow of Sewal fitz Henry. In 1212 he was holding half a fee in Rigsby of the honour of Richmond. Served as a justice itinerant in the north of England in 1198 aand 1199. Died s.p. before 16 December 1219. His widow Isabel married thirdly Ralph Musard. She was living in 1227.
5b. Jollan de Neville II (c. 1190 - 1246)
Brother and heir. Married firstly Maud daughter of Andrew de Beauchamp by his wife Eve de Grey by whom he had at least three sons and a daughter. In 1230 he went on Henry III's expedition to Brittany. In 1234-5 he served as a justice itinerant in Yorkshire and Northumberland. In 1242 became justice of the common bench, a position he retained until his death. In 1244 he had a licence to marry Sarah, widow of John de Heriz (d. bef. Nov 1241). He died shortly before 5 October 1246. His widow Sarah was probably still living in 1270. His daughter Margaret married William Warde of Givendale (d. 1266).
6a. Jollan de Neville III (1224 - 1250)
Son and heir of Jollan II and Maud de Beauchamp. One of the heirs of his grandmother Eve de Grey in 1246. He married Maud and died s.p. before March 1250.
6b. John de Neville (c. 1226 - 1271)
Brother and heir. He married firstly Alice, daughter of Ranulf de Brakenburgh and secondly Emicina. In 1256 he had a confirmation of the manor of Sheerness from Henry III. In September 1257, he leased the manor of Pickhill to Nicholas de Meinill for 20 years. In October 1270 he sold the manor of Sheerness, Kent (with two dowers) to Roger de Northwood. He died s.p. in 1271. His widow Emicina died before 1290.
6c. Andrew de Neville (c. 1230 - 1295)
Brother and heir. He married Alice and had six children; Jollan, Andrew, Hugh, Margaret, Eve and Maud. He died shortly before 23 September 1295. Alice was still living in 1296.
7. Jollan de Neville IV (1271 - aft. 1331)
Son and heir of Andrew. His wife's name is unknown. He died in or after 1331.
8. Sir Thomas de Neville (c. 1300 - aft. 1363)
Son and heir. He married firstly Cecily, daughter of Ranulf de Blancminster (d. 22 June 1348) and secondly Sibyl. In June 1340, Thomas and Cecily exchanged their holdings in the manor of Thornton Watlass with Geoffrey le Scrope, in exchange for the manor of Yarnwick, Yorkshire. He was knight of the shire for Nottinghamshire in 1363 and probably died soon afterwards. His widow Sibyl survived him.
9. Sir William Neville (c. 1338 - c. 1412)
Son and heir. He married before 1371, Elizabeth, daughter of Sir Thomas de Fencotes. In 1371, he had protection going to sea in the king's sevice. He was given as a hostage for the town of Brest in June 1373 and held in prison for ransom for over three years. In 1377, as heir of Cecily Blancminster, he had property in Cornwall and the Scilly Isles settled upon him in reversion, with further reversion to his younger brother Ranulf. He was Member of Parliament for Nottinghamshire in 1378 and 1394. Deponent in the Scrope-Grosvenor case in October 1386, when he stated that he was 48 years old and had been armed for 17 years. In January 1402, William Neville and Elizabeth his wife granted the manor of Yarnwick, Yorkshire and the manor of Sutton (in-the-Marsh), Lincolnshire to Robert Neville, their son and Alice his wife. He was alive in December 1411 and probably died about 1412.
10. Robert Neville (c. 1376 - bef. 1428)
Son and heir. He married before January 1402, Alice, daughter of Sir Nicholas Longford of Derbyshire. In January 1402, William Neville and Elizabeth his wife granted the manor of Yarnwick, Yorkshire and the manor of Sutton (in-the-Marsh), Lincolnshire to Robert Neville, their son and Alice his wife. Nothing more is known about him. He was dead before 1428 when his eldest son Thomas was holding Rolleston.
Thomas Neville (c. 1405 - 1482)
In 1428 he was holding 1 knight's fee in Rolleston, Nottinghamshire and in 1432, Rigsby and Sutton-in-the-Marsh, Lincolnshire. It is possible he had a younger brother William who was holding Pickhill in 1428. In 1438, Thomas sued Thomas Coleshill for possession of lands in Cornwall and the Scilly Isles as heir of his great-grandmother Cecily Blancminster. He married Elizabeth, daughter of William Babington, chief justice of the common bench (d. 1454) and died in 1482.
Regards,
John
A couple of weeks ago I was guilty of repeating a genealogical myth in a post to this group, namely that the Neville family of Pickhill and Rolleston were descended from Henry de Neville, chamberlain to Henry II. Later, by chance, I was looking for something else in Early Yorkshire Charters, vol. 5 and found that Clay puts forward a quite convincing case for their descent from a daughter of Gilbert de Neville, the co-founder of Tupholme priory in Lincolnshire. The descent is very briefly as follows:-
1. Losoard (? - aft. 1086)
Probaly a Breton, Domesday tenant of Odo of Bayeaux in Rigsby, Lincolnshire and Rolleston, Nottinghamshire.
2. Richard son of Losoard (? - aft. 1118)
Holding land in Rigsby of the earl of Richmond at the Lindsey Survey.
3. Rocelin son of Richard (? - aft 1150)
Granted land in Rigsby to Greenfield priory about 1150. He married an unnamed daughter of Gilbert de Neville II, the co-founder, with his brother Alan, of Tupholme priory in Lincolnshire.
4. Jollan de Neville I (c. 1150 - 1208)
Adopted his mother's family name. Married, about 1175 Amfelisa daughter of Alan fitz Roald, Constable of Richmond, who granted him Pickhill, Yorkshire. The grant was witnessed by Geoffrey, William and Walter de Neville, the three sons of Gilbert de Neville II, and no doubt Jollan's uncles. He was granted the manor of Sheerness, Kent by Richard I. Died in 1208 and was succeeded by his eldest son John. His widow was living in 1219 when she was described as Domina Amfelisa de Rolleston.
5a. John de Neville (c. 1185 - 1219)
Son and heir. He married about 1210, Isabel daughter of Robert Maulovel, widow of Sewal fitz Henry. In 1212 he was holding half a fee in Rigsby of the honour of Richmond. Served as a justice itinerant in the north of England in 1198 aand 1199. Died s.p. before 16 December 1219. His widow Isabel married thirdly Ralph Musard. She was living in 1227.
5b. Jollan de Neville II (c. 1190 - 1246)
Brother and heir. Married firstly Maud daughter of Andrew de Beauchamp by his wife Eve de Grey by whom he had at least three sons and a daughter. In 1230 he went on Henry III's expedition to Brittany. In 1234-5 he served as a justice itinerant in Yorkshire and Northumberland. In 1242 became justice of the common bench, a position he retained until his death. In 1244 he had a licence to marry Sarah, widow of John de Heriz (d. bef. Nov 1241). He died shortly before 5 October 1246. His widow Sarah was probably still living in 1270. His daughter Margaret married William Warde of Givendale (d. 1266).
6a. Jollan de Neville III (1224 - 1250)
Son and heir of Jollan II and Maud de Beauchamp. One of the heirs of his grandmother Eve de Grey in 1246. He married Maud and died s.p. before March 1250.
6b. John de Neville (c. 1226 - 1271)
Brother and heir. He married firstly Alice, daughter of Ranulf de Brakenburgh and secondly Emicina. In 1256 he had a confirmation of the manor of Sheerness from Henry III. In September 1257, he leased the manor of Pickhill to Nicholas de Meinill for 20 years. In October 1270 he sold the manor of Sheerness, Kent (with two dowers) to Roger de Northwood. He died s.p. in 1271. His widow Emicina died before 1290.
6c. Andrew de Neville (c. 1230 - 1295)
Brother and heir. He married Alice and had six children; Jollan, Andrew, Hugh, Margaret, Eve and Maud. He died shortly before 23 September 1295. Alice was still living in 1296.
7. Jollan de Neville IV (1271 - aft. 1331)
Son and heir of Andrew. His wife's name is unknown. He died in or after 1331.
8. Sir Thomas de Neville (c. 1300 - aft. 1363)
Son and heir. He married firstly Cecily, daughter of Ranulf de Blancminster (d. 22 June 1348) and secondly Sibyl. In June 1340, Thomas and Cecily exchanged their holdings in the manor of Thornton Watlass with Geoffrey le Scrope, in exchange for the manor of Yarnwick, Yorkshire. He was knight of the shire for Nottinghamshire in 1363 and probably died soon afterwards. His widow Sibyl survived him.
9. Sir William Neville (c. 1338 - c. 1412)
Son and heir. He married before 1371, Elizabeth, daughter of Sir Thomas de Fencotes. In 1371, he had protection going to sea in the king's sevice. He was given as a hostage for the town of Brest in June 1373 and held in prison for ransom for over three years. In 1377, as heir of Cecily Blancminster, he had property in Cornwall and the Scilly Isles settled upon him in reversion, with further reversion to his younger brother Ranulf. He was Member of Parliament for Nottinghamshire in 1378 and 1394. Deponent in the Scrope-Grosvenor case in October 1386, when he stated that he was 48 years old and had been armed for 17 years. In January 1402, William Neville and Elizabeth his wife granted the manor of Yarnwick, Yorkshire and the manor of Sutton (in-the-Marsh), Lincolnshire to Robert Neville, their son and Alice his wife. He was alive in December 1411 and probably died about 1412.
10. Robert Neville (c. 1376 - bef. 1428)
Son and heir. He married before January 1402, Alice, daughter of Sir Nicholas Longford of Derbyshire. In January 1402, William Neville and Elizabeth his wife granted the manor of Yarnwick, Yorkshire and the manor of Sutton (in-the-Marsh), Lincolnshire to Robert Neville, their son and Alice his wife. Nothing more is known about him. He was dead before 1428 when his eldest son Thomas was holding Rolleston.
Thomas Neville (c. 1405 - 1482)
In 1428 he was holding 1 knight's fee in Rolleston, Nottinghamshire and in 1432, Rigsby and Sutton-in-the-Marsh, Lincolnshire. It is possible he had a younger brother William who was holding Pickhill in 1428. In 1438, Thomas sued Thomas Coleshill for possession of lands in Cornwall and the Scilly Isles as heir of his great-grandmother Cecily Blancminster. He married Elizabeth, daughter of William Babington, chief justice of the common bench (d. 1454) and died in 1482.
Regards,
John
daveR
Mar 16, 2016, 6:48:51 PM3/16/16
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The last named Thomas Neville did indeed have a younger brother William, who married Elizabeth Barker, heiress of South Leverton; his son George married another heiress, Isabel Crofts of Ragnall.
Thomas's son William married Catherine Palmer, co-heiress of Holt, and thus the family became the Nevilles of Holt.
Their arms (gules a saltaire ermine) clearly demonstrate kinship with the Nevilles of Raby.
Thomas's son William married Catherine Palmer, co-heiress of Holt, and thus the family became the Nevilles of Holt.
Their arms (gules a saltaire ermine) clearly demonstrate kinship with the Nevilles of Raby.
John Watson
Mar 17, 2016, 1:50:30 AM3/17/16
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For further details on William Neville, his first wife Catherine Palmer, her ancestors and their descendants down to Sir Thomas Neville who died in 1564, see:
George F. Farnham and A. Hamilton Thompson, The Manor House and Chapel of Holt, Transactions of the Leicestershire Archaeological Society, 13 (1923), pp. 200-221.
https://www.le.ac.uk/lahs/downloads/FarnhamVolumeXIIIpart2-4sm.pdf
Regards,
John
John Watson
Mar 17, 2016, 2:38:35 AM3/17/16
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Bernard Elliot, Thomas Nevill of Nevill Holt (1510-1571), Transactions of the Leicestershire Archaeological and Historical Society, 58 (1983), pp. 20-4.
https://www.le.ac.uk/lahs/downloads/NevillPagesfromvolumeLVIII-4.pdf
Regards,
John
Peter Howarth
Mar 17, 2016, 5:23:24 AM3/17/16
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On Wednesday, 16 March 2016 22:48:51 UTC, daveR wrote:
>
>
> Their arms (gules a saltaire ermine) clearly demonstrate kinship with the Nevilles of Raby.
>
One would expect this to be so, but unfortunately this is not always a reliable conclusion. For example, the Greys of Codnor bore 'barry argent and azure'. The Greys of Rotherfield bore 'barry argent and azure, a bend gules', making it look as if they were related. But CP could find no connection between the families. Since there was no control over what arms a knight adopted, it was perfectly possible for him to adopt a variation of his lord's arms (a common practice), or a variation of someone else's arms. There are at least two examples of three neighbouring families bearing the same arms but in different tinctures.
>
I agree that the arms of Neville of Pickhill were derived from those of Neville of Raby, but the connection was not necessarily genealogical.
Peter Howarth
rtah...@gmail.com
Mar 15, 2018, 7:19:06 AM3/15/18
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On Monday, March 14, 2016 at 10:13:14 AM UTC, John Watson wrote:
My wife, Sarah nee Nevile, is from one of the two families of that name surviving in Lincs/Notts who are direct descendants through the male line and umpteen generations, from Losoard of Domesday Book. So I was interested to see your post. There are some details which I think you have got wrong and others where I'd like to know what they are derived from.
It was not John de N d.1219 but his father Jollan I d. 1208 who was a justice itinerant in 1198/9, and I suspect John's wife was a de Meinil not Maulovel.
What's the evidence for Andrew d.1295 being the brother, rather than the son of John d.1271?
Jollan IV was married to Margaret Fytting.
What's the evidence for Sir Thomas d. shortly after 1363 being Knight of the Shire for Notts in the 1263 Parliament?
Sir William d. c 1412: what's the evidence for him being a hostage for the town of Brest in June 1373 and being held prisoner for ransom for more than three years? I know he was serving under his kinsman the Neville Lord of Raby who was holding Brest against the French from 1372. It is puzzling how he could have had hostage status given the circumstances.
The details posted later about the brother William, of Thomas d.1482, and his son George are correct, and it is from this line that the current Neviles of Thorney and of Aubourn descend.
Geoffrey de N of Burreth, presumed uncle of Jollan I and who witnessed his marriage in 1175, had a daughter Isabel who m. Rbt Fitzmaldred. Their son Geoffrey of Raby changed his name to de Neville and from him are descended the Lords of Raby, Earls of Westmorland, Salisbury and Warwick. So the Neviles and Nevilles were kinsmen and the Nevile coat of arms, Gules, a saltire ermine, is a variant on the plain saltire of the Nevilles.
Gilbert, as did Jo of Burreth's father (also father of Jollan I's mother, we assume) was brother of alan who became Chief Justice of the Forest under Henry II, one of the 4 most powerful men in the land. His grandson Hugh held the same post under Richard I and under John. His name appears in the preamble to Magna Carta. The following year, 1216, he joined the rebel barons as did John de N who d. 1219.
I hope this gets through to you and look forward to hearing from you.
Roger Hudson rtahudson @gmail.com
Peter Howarth
Mar 17, 2018, 6:43:15 AM3/17/18
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On Thursday, 15 March 2018 11:19:06 UTC, rtah...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Geoffrey de N of Burreth, presumed uncle of Jollan I and who witnessed his marriage in 1175, had a daughter Isabel who m. Rbt Fitzmaldred. Their son Geoffrey of Raby changed his name to de Neville and from him are descended the Lords of Raby, Earls of Westmorland, Salisbury and Warwick. So the Neviles and Nevilles were kinsmen and the Nevile coat of arms, Gules, a saltire ermine, is a variant on the plain saltire of the Nevilles.
>
Whilst I can't stand in for John Watson to answer your genealogical queries, I can point out that there are problems with treating the arms of Neville of Pickhill (gules, a saltire ermine) as being derived genealogically from Neville of Raby (gules, a saltire argent), because the saltire did not come from the Nevilles of Ashby and Burreth but from Robert fitz Meldred of Raby.
>
> Geoffrey de N of Burreth, presumed uncle of Jollan I and who witnessed his marriage in 1175, had a daughter Isabel who m. Rbt Fitzmaldred. Their son Geoffrey of Raby changed his name to de Neville and from him are descended the Lords of Raby, Earls of Westmorland, Salisbury and Warwick. So the Neviles and Nevilles were kinsmen and the Nevile coat of arms, Gules, a saltire ermine, is a variant on the plain saltire of the Nevilles.
>
Geoffrey de Neville of Burreth, the presumed uncle of Jollan I of Pickhill, had a son Henry. This Henry de Neville (d.1227 s.p.), of Ashby, used a seal with a device, not on a shield, of a lymphad (a galley with a sail).[1] This is a canting device, OFr 'nef', or ship. Whereas Robert fitz Meldred of Raby used seals with a shield charged with a saltire.[2]
Robert fitz Meldred and Isabel, daughter of Geoffrey de Neville of Burreth and sister of Henry of Ashby, had a son called Geoffrey, who had possession of some of his mother's lands, who adopted his mother's surname, and who died c.1242 v.p. He appears in Grimaldi's Roll, which includes items copied from an earlier roll of c.1240-42. There he is given the arms 'or, a lymphad sable'.[3] These were the original Neville arms.
Geoffrey's son, Robert, who inherited Raby when his grandfather died, bore his grandfather's arms, 'gules, a saltire argent.'[4] His brother, Geoffrey of Hornby, reversed the tinctures and bore 'argent, a saltire gules'.[5]
When looking for evidence of arms for Neville of Pickhill, there is not much available. There is a plaster cast with an ermine saltire, SIGILLVM THOME DE NEVILE, which Birch dates to 1314.[6] But if that date is correct it is some twenty years too early for Thomas of Pickhill, who succeeded after 1331. Steen Clemmensen says that the Ashmolean Roll of about 1334 has 'gules, a saltire ermine' for 'Monsr Neuill',[7] even though there is no entry for it in the Dictionary of British Arms, iv. p 364 under 'Gu a salt Erm'. Both of those entries could as easily refer to a younger son of Raby as to a Neville of Pickhill. Thomas Jenyns’ Book (c.1350-1410) TJ 392 refers to 'Monsr Robert Neville de Pikale', which is the earliest evidence that definitely refers to Neville of Pickhill. We are then left with some later references, mostly from Tudor times, to an ermine saltire for Neville of Pickhill, or Notts, or Leics, or Rykal, or nowhere specific.
All of this suggests that the Pickhill branch chose their arms much later than the Nevilles of Raby and wanted to look as though they were closely related to the more important branch. Unfortunately, they didn't realise that the saltire represented Raby rather than Neville.
Peter Howarth
[1] seal: n.d., C H Hunter-Blair, ‘Seals of Northumberland and Durham’, no. 557
[2] seals: (i) n.d., illustrated 'Durham Cathedral Muniments, Catalogue of the Medieval Seals', ed. W. Greenwell and C. H. Hunter Blair, Durham University Library GB-0033-DCD, http://reed.dur.ac.uk/xtf/view?docId=ead/dcd/dcdmseal.xml no. 1742; (ii) 13th c., W G Birch, 'Catalogue of Seals in the British Museum', no. 9746
[3] Grimaldi’s Roll (c.1350) P 120
[4] Glover’s Roll (c.1253) B 59, Walford’s Roll (c.1275) C 135, Heralds’ Roll (c.1279) HE 605, Dering Roll (c.1280) A 200, St George’s Roll (c.1285) E 198, Segar’s Roll (c.1285) G 180
[5] Walford’s Roll (c.1275) C 58, St George’s Roll (c.1285) E 236, Collins’ Roll (c.1296) Q 111
[6] W G Birch, 'Catalogue of Seals in the British Museum', no. 12156
[7] Ashmolean Roll (c.1334) AS 463, in S Clemmensen, 'Ordinary of Medieval Armorials', Microsoft Access database, version 2.1 (2017) Copenhagen: http://www.armorial.dk/
Betty Gorrie
Jun 16, 2022, 6:14:09 PM6/16/22
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Betty Gorrie
Jun 16, 2022, 6:16:38 PM6/16/22
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On Saturday, March 17, 2018 at 3:43:15 AM UTC-7, Peter Howarth wrote:
Betty Gorrie
Jun 16, 2022, 6:21:27 PM6/16/22
to
I think I am not posting correctly. I have Robert Nevill who had a son George Nevill c 1518, who married Hercy and became George Nevill of Grove, Thorsby, which is right next door here to Rollason, Thorsby. This Robert here above as numer 10 is 1376, so it appears I am missing about 100 years. Can anyone asist me with filling in the blanks or let me know where to find this group. Thanks.
Will Johnson
Jun 20, 2022, 8:45:24 AM6/20/22
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On Thursday, June 16, 2022 at 3:21:27 PM UTC-7, Betty Gorrie wrote:
> I think I am not posting correctly. I have Robert Nevill who had a son George Nevill c 1518, who married Hercy and became George Nevill of Grove, Thorsby, which is right next door here to Rollason, Thorsby. This Robert here above as numer 10 is 1376, so it appears I am missing about 100 years. Can anyone asist me with filling in the blanks or let me know where to find this group. Thanks.
http://groups.google.ad/group/soc.genealogy.medieval/browse_thread/thread/f7b315d4005c3e8b
> I think I am not posting correctly. I have Robert Nevill who had a son George Nevill c 1518, who married Hercy and became George Nevill of Grove, Thorsby, which is right next door here to Rollason, Thorsby. This Robert here above as numer 10 is 1376, so it appears I am missing about 100 years. Can anyone asist me with filling in the blanks or let me know where to find this group. Thanks.
http://books.google.com/books?id=aPcMAAAAIAAJ&pg=PR1#PPA606,M1
http://books.google.com/books?id=aPcMAAAAIAAJ&pg=PR1#PPA711,M1
http://books.google.com/books?id=IPcMAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA1087
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