Am. Colonist, Robert Abell - valid lineage?
D. Spencer Hines
I'm happy to tell you that his ascent to Edward I looks good, according
to Faris.
He was married to Joanna ____, and died in Rehoboth on 20 Jun 1663.
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Leo Tolstoy On Firmly Held Beliefs and Resultant Mental Gridlock ---
"I know that most men --- not only those considered clever, but even
those who really are clever and capable of understanding the most
difficult scientific, mathematical or philosophic problems, can seldom
discern even the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as
obliges them to admit the falsity of conclusions they have formed,
perhaps with great difficulty --- conclusions of which they are proud,
which they have taught to others, and on which they have built their
lives."
Leo Tolstoy [1896] --- Source: "What Is Art?" --- Leo Tolstoy,
Translated by Aylmer Maude, in Tolstoy's Collected Works, Charles
Scribner's Sons, (1902), Volume 19, p. 468
RTansey959 <rtans...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990929012613...@ng-da1.aol.com...
| I'm descended from one Robert Abell, b. Abt 1604/1605 in Stapenhill,
Derby
| Lockington, Leicester, England, d. 20 Jun 1663 in Rehoboth, Bristol
County, MA.
|
|
| Have found much info of late on the Net, asserting a noble lineage for
Robert
| all the way to William the Conqueror. Until I can get to a library to
check
| out the books, does anyone have any knowledge one way or the other of
the
| claim?
|
| Thanks for the help, Roger
D. Spencer Hines
Edward I was, of course, the 4th great-grandson of William The
Conqueror.
The source you want is:
"Plantagenet Ancestry of the Seventeenth-Century Colonists: The Descent
From the Later Plantagenet Kings of England, Henry III, Edward I, Edward
II and Edward III, of Emigrants From England and Wales To the North
American Colonies Before 1701" [Short Title: Plantagenet Ancestry],
David Faris, Baltimore, Maryland: Genealogical Publishing Company; [Jun
1996] First Edition; ISBN 0-8063-1518-0; 324 pp., indexed.
See pages 1 and 2, for Robert Abell's line to Edward I. This will lead
you to the Mary Mainwaring [Grandmother of Richard Abell] line to Edward
I, as well.
A second edition of this book is anticipated soon, but we've not been
told a publication date yet.
Congratulations.
Aloha,
P.S. Are you watching, Inger?
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Leo Tolstoy On Firmly Held Beliefs and Resultant Mental Gridlock ---
"I know that most men --- not only those considered clever, but even
those who really are clever and capable of understanding the most
difficult scientific, mathematical or philosophic problems, can seldom
discern even the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as
obliges them to admit the falsity of conclusions they have formed,
perhaps with great difficulty --- conclusions of which they are proud,
which they have taught to others, and on which they have built their
lives."
Leo Tolstoy [1896] --- Source: "What Is Art?" --- Leo Tolstoy,
Translated by Aylmer Maude, in Tolstoy's Collected Works, Charles
Scribner's Sons, (1902), Volume 19, p. 468
D. Spencer Hines <D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu> wrote in message
news:...
RTansey959
RTansey959
There are indeed many Mainwarings in my line, but, after only a month or two of
my addiction to genealogy, I just hadn't made the connection to the
Plantagenets or back. Thanks for the info about the book and I shall certainly
keep a look out for it.
Yours, Roger Tansey
N.B. One last thing: was Inger watching?
D. Spencer Hines
You're quite welcome. Please let us know what you find.
Your Robert Abell appears to be the 11th great-grandson of Edward I.
What is your relationship to Robert Abell? He was the second son.
His Mother was Frances Cotton, daughter of Richard Cotton, who was the
husband of Mary Mainwaring.
Richard Abell's Father, George Abell, was reportedly an Oxford graduate,
Brasenose College.
George Abell made Robert this bequest in his will dated 8 Sep 1630 and
proved 7 Feb 1631 (P.C.C. 10 St. John):
"I bequeath unto my second sonne Robert Abell onelie a Twentie shillings
peece for his childs parte in regard of ye charges I have beene at in
placing him in a good trade in London wch he hath made noe use of and
since in furnishing him for newe England where I hope he now is."
Was Inger watching?
Well, I sincerely hope so. We are trying to encourage her to use
standard scholarly citations and quotations, so her proofs can be
retrieved by others.
Cheers,
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Leo Tolstoy On Firmly Held Beliefs and Resultant Mental Gridlock ---
"I know that most men --- not only those considered clever, but even
those who really are clever and capable of understanding the most
difficult scientific, mathematical or philosophic problems, can seldom
discern even the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as
obliges them to admit the falsity of conclusions they have formed,
perhaps with great difficulty --- conclusions of which they are proud,
which they have taught to others, and on which they have built their
lives."
Leo Tolstoy [1896] --- Source: "What Is Art?" --- Leo Tolstoy,
Translated by Aylmer Maude, in Tolstoy's Collected Works, Charles
Scribner's Sons, (1902), Volume 19, p. 468
RTansey959 <rtans...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990929041601...@ng-da1.aol.com...
U...@aol.com
rtans...@aol.com writes:
<< Have found much info of late on the Net, asserting a noble lineage for
Robert
all the way to William the Conqueror. Until I can get to a library to check
out the books, does anyone have any knowledge one way or the other of the
claim?
>>
When I ran the outline descendant chart from William to Robert, it came to 35
pages, thus there are numerous lines. Here is one:
1 William the Conqueror b: 14 October 1024 in Falaise, Calvados, FRA
d: 09 September 1087 in Hermentruville by Rouen, Seine-Maritime, FRA
.... +Matilda of Flanders b: Abt. 1030 in Flanders, FRA m: 1050
in Castle of Angi, Normandy, FRA d: 03 November 1083 in Caen, Calvados, FRA
2 Adele de Normandy b: Abt. 1062 d: 08 March 1136/37
.... +Stephen of Blois b: Abt. 1045 m: 1080 d: 19 July 1102 in
Battle of Ramleh, Holy Land
3 Theobald IV of Blois b: Abt. 1085 d: 08 January 1151/52
.... +Mathilda von Sponheim b: Abt. 1105 d: Abt. 1160
4 Adele de Champagne b: 1140 d: 1209
.... +Louis VII King of France b: 1120 m: 03 November 1160 d: 18
September 1180 in Paris, FRA
5 Philippe IV King of France b: 22 August 1165 d: 14 July 1223
in Mantes
*2nd Wife of Philippe IV King of France:
*3rd Wife of Philippe IV King of France:
.... +Isabella of Hainault b: April 1170 m: Abt. 1187 d: 15
March 1189/90 in Paris, FRA
6 [112] Louis VIII King of France b: 03 November 1187 in Paris, Seine,
FRA d: 08 November 1226 in
Montpensier, Auvergne, FRA
.... +[111] Blanca de Castille b: 04 March 1187/88 in Placentia,
Castille, ESP m: 23 May 1200 d: 27
November 1252 in Palais de Louvre, Paris, FRA
7 [101] Robert I of Artois b: 17 September 1216 in FRA d: 09
February 1249/50 in Mansoure, Egypt
.... +[100] Maud of Brabant b: Abt. 1224 in of Brabant, FRA m: 14
June 1237 in Campiegne, FRA d: 29
September 1288
8 [102] Blanche d'Artois b: Abt. 1248 in of Arras, Pas-de-Calais, FRA
d: 02 May 1302 in Paris, FRA
*2nd Husband of [102] Blanche d'Artois:
.... +[103] Edmund of Lancaster b: 16 January 1244/45 in London, ENG
m: 29 October 1276 in Paris, Seine, FRA
d: 05 June 1296 in Bayonne,Bayonne-Pyrennes, FRA
9 [104] Henry of Lancaster b: Abt. 1281 in Gismond Castle,
Monmouthshire, Wales d: 22 September 1345
in Monastery of Canons, Leicester, LEI, ENG
.... +[105] Maud de Chaworth b: 02 February 1281/82 in Kidwelly,
Carmarthen, Wales m: Bef. 02 March 1296/97
d: Bet. 19 February 1316/17 - 03 December 1322
10 [106] Alianor of Lancaster b: Abt. 1311 in Grismond Castle,
Monmouthshire, Wales d: 11 January 1371/72
in Arundel, SSX, ENG
*2nd Husband of [106] Alianor of Lancaster:
.... +[12] Richard II Fitz Alan b: Abt. 1313 in Arundel, SSX, ENG
m: 05 February 1344/45 in Ditton, ENG
d: 24 January 1375/76 in Arundel, SSX, ENG
11 [30] Richard FitzAlan, Sir b: Abt. 1346 d: 21 September
1397 in Cheapside, ENG
.... +[29] Elizabeth de Bohun m: Abt. 28 September 1359 d: 03
April 1385
12 [31] Joan FitzAlan b: Abt. 1375 d: 14 November 1435
.... +[32] William de Beauchamp b: Aft. 1344 d: 08 May 1411
13 [28] Joan de Beauchamp d: 05 August 1430
.... +[27] James Butler b: 1390 d: 23 August 1452 in Ardee
14 [14] Elizabeth Butler b: 1420 d: 08 September 1473
.... +[13] John Talbot, Sir b: Abt. 1413 m: Bef. March 1443/44
d: 10 July 1460 in Battle of Northampton
15 [15] Anne Talbot d: 17 May 1494
.... +[16] Henry Vernon, Sir b: 1445 m: 1467 d: 13 April 1515
16 [2] Elizabeth Vernon d: 1563
.... +[1] Robert Corbet, Sir b: Abt. 1477 d: 1513
17 [3] Dorothy Corbet
.... +[4] Richard Mainwaring, Sir b: Abt. 1499 d: 30
September 1558 in St. Albans
18 [5] Arthur Mainwaring b: Abt. 1520 d: 04 September 1590
in Ightfield, Salop, ENG
.... +[6] Margaret Mainwaring b: Abt. 1521 d: Bef. 1590
19 [7] Mary Mainwaring b: Abt. 1541 in Ightfield, co Salop d:
Bef. 14 June 1578
.... +[8] Richard Cotton b: Abt. 1540 m: 06 January 1559/60 d: 14
June 1602 in Stoke, co. Warwick, ENG
20 [9] Frances Cotton b: Abt. 1573
.... +[10] George Abell b: Abt. 1561 in Stapenhill m: Abt. 1598 in
Lockington, LEI, ENG d: Abt. 13 September 1630
21 [11] Robert Abell b: Abt. 1605 in Stapenhill, DBY, ENG
d: 20 June 1663 in Rehoboth, MA
Always optimistic--Dave
D. Spencer Hines
"See pages 1 and 2, for Robert Abell's line to Edward I. This will lead
you to the Mary Mainwaring [Grandmother of Robert Abell] line to Edward
I, as well."
Christian Feuillet
>In a message dated 9/29/99 12:29:41 AM Central Daylight Time,
>rtans...@aol.com writes:
>
><< Have found much info of late on the Net, asserting a noble lineage for
>Robert
> all the way to William the Conqueror. Until I can get to a library to check
> out the books, does anyone have any knowledge one way or the other of the
> claim?
> >>
>When I ran the outline descendant chart from William to Robert, it came to 35
>pages, thus there are numerous lines. Here is one:
>
> 1 William the Conqueror b: 14 October 1024 in Falaise, Calvados, FRA
>
> d: 09 September 1087 in Hermentruville by Rouen, Seine-Maritime, FRA
>.... +Matilda of Flanders b: Abt. 1030 in Flanders, FRA m: 1050
>in Castle of Angi, Normandy, FRA d: 03 November 1083 in Caen, Calvados, FRA
> 2 Adele de Normandy b: Abt. 1062 d: 08 March 1136/37
>.... +Stephen of Blois b: Abt. 1045 m: 1080 d: 19 July 1102 in
>Battle of Ramleh, Holy Land
> 3 Theobald IV of Blois b: Abt. 1085 d: 08 January 1151/52
>.... +Mathilda von Sponheim b: Abt. 1105 d: Abt. 1160
> 4 Adele de Champagne b: 1140 d: 1209
>.... +Louis VII King of France b: 1120 m: 03 November 1160 d: 18
>September 1180 in Paris, FRA
> 5 Philippe IV King of France b: 22 August 1165 d: 14 July 1223
>in Mantes
Of course you mean Philippe II "Philippe Auguste" and not Philippe IV le
Bel (1268-1314)
Christian
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> I'm descended from one Robert Abell, b. Abt 1604/1605 in Stapenhill, Derby
> Lockington, Leicester, England, d. 20 Jun 1663 in Rehoboth, Bristol County, MA.
>
>
> all the way to William the Conqueror. Until I can get to a library to check
> out the books, does anyone have any knowledge one way or the other of the
> claim?
It depends on who you ask. Faris accepts the line, as do most such
compilations. However, there is a nagging little name's-the-same
problem. While the will of George Abell names "my son Robert who has
gone to America" (or something like that) there appears to have been two
Robert Abells in colonial New England. Thus in The Great Migration
Begins, which used the highest possible standards to evaluate such
claims, the connection of the well known immigrant to the English family
(and hence his line to Edward I) was not accepted, being only a 50/50
prospect.
taf
D. Spencer Hines
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Leo Tolstoy On Firmly Held Beliefs and Resultant Mental Gridlock ---
"I know that most men --- not only those considered clever, but even
those who really are clever and capable of understanding the most
difficult scientific, mathematical or philosophic problems, can seldom
discern even the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as
obliges them to admit the falsity of conclusions they have formed,
perhaps with great difficulty --- conclusions of which they are proud,
which they have taught to others, and on which they have built their
lives."
Leo Tolstoy [1896] --- Source: "What Is Art?" --- Leo Tolstoy,
Translated by Aylmer Maude, in Tolstoy's Collected Works, Charles
Scribner's Sons, (1902), Volume 19, p. 468
Todd A. Farmerie <ta...@po.cwru.edu> wrote in message
news:37F236...@po.cwru.edu...
| RTansey959 wrote:
| >
| > I'm descended from one Robert Abell, b. Abt 1604/1605 in Stapenhill,
Derby
| > Lockington, Leicester, England, d. 20 Jun 1663 in Rehoboth, Bristol
County, MA.
| >
| >
| > Have found much info of late on the Net, asserting a noble lineage
for Robert
| > all the way to William the Conqueror. Until I can get to a library
to check
| > out the books, does anyone have any knowledge one way or the other
of the
| > claim?
|
| It depends on who [sic] you ask. Faris accepts the line, as do most
such
| compilations. However, there is a nagging little name's-the-same
| problem. While the will of George Abell names "my son Robert who has
| gone to America" (or something like that) there appears [sic] to have
been two
| Robert Abells in colonial New England. Thus in The Great Migration
| Begins, which used the highest possible standards to evaluate such
| claims, the connection of the well known immigrant to the English
family
| (and hence his line to Edward I) was not accepted, being only a 50/50
| prospect.
|
|
| taf
That's a good point.
Faris is certainly not infallible.
Who can tell us when the Second Edition of _Plantagenet Ancestry_ will
be available from GPC?
DSH
Sutliff
"D. Spencer Hines" wrote:
> <Heavily snipped>
>
> That's a good point.
>
> Faris is certainly not infallible.
>
> Who can tell us when the Second Edition of _Plantagenet Ancestry_ will
> be available from GPC?
>
> DSH
GPC will not be publishing the Second Edition, but rather it will be
Newberry Street Press, the publishing arm of of the NEHGS. My guess is that
Faris pulled publication from GPC when they published the fifth edition of
_The Magna Charta Sureties_. The Second Edition of _Plantagenet Ancestry_ is
"rumoured" to be a December publication? So far I have seen no mention of it
at the NEHGS site, but that may mean nothing as I have not seen any mention
of the next volume of _The Great Migration Begins_ which has supposedly
already been published. Perhaps someone else can shine more light on this.
Henry Sutliff
D. Spencer Hines
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Leo Tolstoy On Firmly Held Beliefs and Resultant Mental Gridlock ---
"I know that most men --- not only those considered clever, but even
those who really are clever and capable of understanding the most
difficult scientific, mathematical or philosophic problems, can seldom
discern even the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as
obliges them to admit the falsity of conclusions they have formed,
perhaps with great difficulty --- conclusions of which they are proud,
which they have taught to others, and on which they have built their
lives."
Leo Tolstoy [1896] --- Source: "What Is Art?" --- Leo Tolstoy,
Translated by Aylmer Maude, in Tolstoy's Collected Works, Charles
Scribner's Sons, (1902), Volume 19, p. 468
Sutliff <ss...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:37F1E20C...@earthlink.net...
<snip of good stuff>
Vickie Elam White
> Thus in The Great Migration
> Begins, which used the highest possible standards to evaluate such
> claims, the connection of the well known immigrant to the English family
> (and hence his line to Edward I) was not accepted, being only a 50/50
> prospect.
I have the GMB right in front of me, and I disagree with your
interpretation
of Anderson's view on this line. He accepts it but admits it needs work.
There is a question about a gap in New England records from 1631 to
1638, but GMB does list Robert as the son of George and Frances
(COTTON) ABELL of Stapenhill, Derbyshire and Hemington, Leicestershire.
There is a cautionary tone, but it appears that Anderson accepts the line
but feels it needs work to strenthen it. It seems possible that Robert
returned to England during this time. GMB says "One record which may
be relevant here comes from the records of the Providence Island Company.
On 6 April 1638 'John Arrat, his wife and child, Robert Abell, John Clerke,
Edmund Fole and Peter Talbot, sawyer, who were going to New England,
say they are willing to go to Providence.' [Coldham 194]." Anderson
says this would account for Robert's reappearance in New England records
in 1638 but doesn't account for the gap of 1631-1638. He does have a
point, yet he still seems to accept that this Robert ABELL is the son of
George and Frances.
I must admit that I am not familiar with the Providence Island Company.
Did the members of this company come from one particular area of England?
If so, it is possible that some as yet undiscovered records from that area
of
England would yield clues about this Robert ABELL. Also perhaps further
examination of Hemington, Leicestershire area records may yield new info.
His father's will was written 8 Sep 1630 and the last firm mention of
Robert
in New England was his admission as a freeman on 18 May 1631. Could he
have returned to England in connection with his family's estate? Is there
further mention of him in probate records? Did he return to England to
marry?
New England records found so far don't mention his marriage to Joanna _____
or the birth of his first child, Abraham (although Abraham was buried in
Weymouth in November 1639, so he could have died a day or so after his
birth with only his burial being recorded).
GMB also says "More recently, Neil D. Thompson has reexamined and
strengthened the previously noted royal descent for Robert Abell's mother
["Abell-Cotton-Mainwaring: Maternal Ancestryof Robert Abell of Weymouth
and Rehoboth, Mass," TG 5 (1984): 158-71]."
My subscription to TG doesn't go back that far, and my local library
doesn't
carry it. So I have not read this TG article. Has anyone here read it
and, if so,
could you tell us about it?
Vickie Elam White
10265...@compuserve.com
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> Todd Farmerie wrote --
>
> > Thus in The Great Migration
> > Begins, which used the highest possible standards to evaluate such
> > claims, the connection of the well known immigrant to the English family
> > (and hence his line to Edward I) was not accepted, being only a 50/50
> > prospect.
>
> I have the GMB right in front of me, and I disagree with your
> interpretation
> of Anderson's view on this line. He accepts it but admits it needs work.
I must be either misremembering the source, or the immigrant.
> GMB also says "More recently, Neil D. Thompson has reexamined and
> strengthened the previously noted royal descent for Robert Abell's mother
> ["Abell-Cotton-Mainwaring: Maternal Ancestryof Robert Abell of Weymouth
> and Rehoboth, Mass," TG 5 (1984): 158-71]."
>
> My subscription to TG doesn't go back that far, and my local library
> doesn't carry it. So I have not read this TG article. Has anyone here
> read it and, if so, could you tell us about it?
It has been a while since I read it, but it basically addresses the
following question - (George?) Cotton, the maternal grandfather of
Robert Abell had children by three different wives, so which was
Robert's grandmother? There are wills relating to the families of the
other two wives that suggest that Robert's mother was not theirs (i.e.
the father of one of the others names all of his grandchildren, and
names two other Cotton children, but not Frances - that kind of thing).
Then Frances Cotton must have been the daughter of (Mary?) Mainwaring.
He then gives an AT for Frances Cotton, pointing out various avenues of
royal descent.
taf
U...@aol.com
bih...@concentric.net writes:
<< 5 Philippe IV King of France b: 22 August 1165 d: 14 July
1223
>in Mantes
Of course you mean Philippe II "Philippe Auguste" and not Philippe IV le
Bel (1268-1314) >>
Yes--sorry about that.
Always optimistic--dave
D. Spencer Hines
news:199909291436...@compuserve.com...
| Todd Farmerie wrote --
|
| Thus in The Great Migration
| Begins, which used the highest possible standards to evaluate such
| claims, the connection of the well known immigrant to the English
| family (and hence his line to Edward I) was not accepted, being
| only a 50/50 prospect.
|
|
| I have the GMB right in front of me, and I disagree with your
| interpretation of Anderson's view on this line. He accepts it
| but admits it needs work.
<snip of lots of good stuff>
Well, we know that Todd A. Farmerie is _most inclined_ to shoot from the
hip, without actually doing his homework and checking his sources.
_IIRC Generated Genealogy_. "Off the Top"
In fact he often plays the, "I'm doing this from memory" trick but
doesn't actually tell us that he is, in his post.
You know, he sounds more AUTHORITATIVE that way. It impresses the
newbies and intimidates some of them.
I've caught him many times doing this, which is why he won't talk to me.
The Ostrich supposedly sticks his head in the sand and is presumably
safe from all the slings and arrows of his adversaries.
The ostrich's mentality is allegedly, "What I can't see can't possibly
affect me."
But his rump still makes an inviting target. N'est-ce pas?
So, it would not be at all surprising, if he has done it once again.
He just has a careless, casual and insouciant streak that he can't ---
or won't --- get rid of.
We'll just have to see what he has to say after he gets up off the
floor.
But, your case would be much better, Vickie, if we actually had a quote
from GMB as to "acceptance" or "non acceptance" rather than just your
personal gloss on that language.
Aloha,
Vickie Elam White
> It has been a while since I read it, but it basically addresses the
> following question - (George?) Cotton, the maternal grandfather of
> Robert Abell had children by three different wives, so which was
> Robert's grandmother? There are wills relating to the families of the
> other two wives that suggest that Robert's mother was not theirs (i.e.
> the father of one of the others names all of his grandchildren, and
> names two other Cotton children, but not Frances - that kind of thing).
> Then Frances Cotton must have been the daughter of (Mary?) Mainwaring.
> He then gives an AT for Frances Cotton, pointing out various avenues of
> royal descent
Thanks for posting a synopsis of the TG 5 article. This discussion
is getting interesting. Almost makes me wish ABELL was one of
my lines. <G>
Vickie Elam White
10265...@compuserve.com
Vickie Elam White
> Well, we know that Todd A. Farmerie is _most inclined_ to shoot from
> the hip, without actually doing his homework and checking his sources.
That was not the point of my message, as you well know. Even on a
bad day, Todd is heads above you. If you can't contribute anything
to the discussion except insults, why bother?
> But, your case would be much better, Vickie, if we actually
> had a quote from GMB as to "acceptance" or "non acceptance"
> rather than just your personal gloss on that language.
For those who haven't seen GMB, Anderson lists several sections
for each immigrant, such as "Migration", "Origin", etc. If he has
doubts about something he says so right in the appropriate section.
In Robert ABELL's entry, he lists George and Frances (COTTON)
ABELL as Robert's parents.
Anderson goes on to point out the problem of the gap in records
without saying that it is enough for him to doubt Robert's parentage.
He ends the entry with mention of the TG article and again mentions
George and Frances as Robert's parents, not possible or probable
parents.
That sounds like acceptance to me, albeit possibly a more
tempered acceptance than he'd like.
Vickie Elam White
10265...@compuserve.com
D. Spencer Hines
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Leo Tolstoy On Firmly Held Beliefs and Resultant Mental Gridlock ---
"I know that most men --- not only those considered clever, but even
those who really are clever and capable of understanding the most
difficult scientific, mathematical or philosophic problems, can seldom
discern even the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as
obliges them to admit the falsity of conclusions they have formed,
perhaps with great difficulty --- conclusions of which they are proud,
which they have taught to others, and on which they have built their
lives."
Leo Tolstoy [1896] --- Source: "What Is Art?" --- Leo Tolstoy,
Translated by Aylmer Maude, in Tolstoy's Collected Works, Charles
Scribner's Sons, (1902), Volume 19, p. 468
Vickie Elam White <10265...@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:199909291944_...@compuserve.com...
| D. Spencer Hines wrote --
|
| > Well, we know that Todd A. Farmerie is _most inclined_ to shoot from
| > the hip, without actually doing his homework and checking his
sources.
|
| That was not the point of my message, as you well know. Even on a
| bad day, Todd is heads above you. If you can't contribute anything
| to the discussion except insults, why bother?
Alright, Vickie. Well done. You've sucked up to Todd sufficiently for
one day. I'm sure he'll appreciate and remember that.
You now have the IOU you wanted from him.
Smart Girl!
|
| > But, your case would be much better, Vickie, if we actually
| > had a quote from GMB as to "acceptance" or "non acceptance"
| > rather than just your personal gloss on that language.
|
| For those who haven't seen GMB, Anderson lists several sections
| for each immigrant, such as "Migration", "Origin", etc. If he has
| doubts about something he says so right in the appropriate section.
| In Robert ABELL's entry, he lists George and Frances (COTTON)
| ABELL as Robert's parents.
|
| Anderson goes on to point out the problem of the gap in records
| without saying that it is enough for him to doubt Robert's parentage.
| He ends the entry with mention of the TG article and again mentions
| George and Frances as Robert's parents, not possible or probable
| parents.
|
| That sounds like acceptance to me, albeit possibly a more
| tempered acceptance than he'd like.
|
|
| Vickie Elam White
| 10265...@compuserve.com
|
Now, this is a horse of an entirely different color.
Thank you. You make a good case above. Well stated.
Why is it women can be so reasonable at one point and so wacko just a
moment before or after?
Tell me the secret of life.
Freud's enduring question still stands. "What do women really want?"
As well as that other hoary standby. "Sometimes a cigar is just a
cigar."
The fact remains that Todd is often careless, factually inaccurate and
insouciant. I've seen no real improvement over the past three years.
When he's on he's great --- but when he's off and someone calls him on
it he gets temperamental.
But, he's young and may mature genealogically as he gets a few temporal
wrinkles.
He likes to impress people with his "off the top of the head"
knowledge --- and sometimes he's on and sometimes he's not.
I'm just keeping him honest and humble.
Think of it as a Public Service I'm performing.
bharris
Eng for Wright family, I found an entry for Mary Abell, who was christened
in 1637 Her father was Robert Abell.. No other mention of Robert Abell I
have no idea whether this is Robert of Rehoboth. I offer this for research
purposes only.
bharris
D. Spencer Hines
My source is the book by David Faris, previously cited.
Well, if everything pans out --- and Todd Farmerie is correct not to
just take the line as a given --- you would then be something like a
20th great-grandson of Edward I and a 24th great-grandson of William The
Conqueror ---- along with millions of other folks. : )
But, there's many a slip between the cup and the lip.
First you need to get from Timothy Metcalf, or some other ancestor of
yours, to Robert Abell.
Forgive us, if we took you at your word when you said:
"I'm descended from one Robert Abell, b. Abt 1604/1605 in Stapenhill,
Derby Lockington, Leicester, England, d. 20 Jun 1663 in Rehoboth,
Bristol County, MA." --- in your first post.
Cheers,
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Leo Tolstoy On Firmly Held Beliefs and Resultant Mental Gridlock ---
"I know that most men --- not only those considered clever, but even
those who really are clever and capable of understanding the most
difficult scientific, mathematical or philosophic problems, can seldom
discern even the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as
obliges them to admit the falsity of conclusions they have formed,
perhaps with great difficulty --- conclusions of which they are proud,
which they have taught to others, and on which they have built their
lives."
Leo Tolstoy [1896] --- Source: "What Is Art?" --- Leo Tolstoy,
Translated by Aylmer Maude, in Tolstoy's Collected Works, Charles
Scribner's Sons, (1902), Volume 19, p. 468
RTansey959 <rtans...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990929200141...@ng-cn1.aol.com...
| Thank you for the information about the will. What are you're sources
(you
| seem quite well informed!)? To answer your question, Robert Abell
would be my
| 9th great-grandfather. If it helps anyone else, the line of descent
appears to
| be:
|
| Robert Abell
| Benjamin Abell
| Hannah Abell
| Timothy Metcalf
| Ebenezer Metcalf
| William Metcalf
| Frederick Metcalf
| Jane Metcalf
| Mary Ellen Jolliffe
| V.J. Tansey
| Roger Tansey, Sr.
| Roger Tansey, Jr. - me.
|
| I have NOT confirmed to my satisfaction beyond Timothy Metcalf.
bharris
D. Spencer Hines
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Leo Tolstoy On Firmly Held Beliefs and Resultant Mental Gridlock ---
"I know that most men --- not only those considered clever, but even
those who really are clever and capable of understanding the most
difficult scientific, mathematical or philosophic problems, can seldom
discern even the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as
obliges them to admit the falsity of conclusions they have formed,
perhaps with great difficulty --- conclusions of which they are proud,
which they have taught to others, and on which they have built their
lives."
Leo Tolstoy [1896] --- Source: "What Is Art?" --- Leo Tolstoy,
Translated by Aylmer Maude, in Tolstoy's Collected Works, Charles
Scribner's Sons, (1902), Volume 19, p. 468
bharris <bha...@inebraska.com> wrote in message
news:p8yI3.254$QP5....@newsfeed.slurp.net...
Vickie Elam White
> Now, this is a horse of an entirely different color.
>
> Thank you. You make a good case above. Well stated.
>
> Why is it women can be so reasonable at one point and
> so wacko just a moment before or after?
You are so full of it that you'd better invest in a snorkle.
My second message is nothing but a rehash of the first,
simply worded a bit differently so I could see how you'd
react.
As I said, if you have nothing positive to contribute, why
waste the bandwith.
Vickie Elam White
10265...@compuserve.com
D. Spencer Hines
AR.
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Leo Tolstoy On Firmly Held Beliefs and Resultant Mental Gridlock ---
"I know that most men --- not only those considered clever, but even
those who really are clever and capable of understanding the most
difficult scientific, mathematical or philosophic problems, can seldom
discern even the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as
obliges them to admit the falsity of conclusions they have formed,
perhaps with great difficulty --- conclusions of which they are proud,
which they have taught to others, and on which they have built their
lives."
Leo Tolstoy [1896] --- Source: "What Is Art?" --- Leo Tolstoy,
Translated by Aylmer Maude, in Tolstoy's Collected Works, Charles
Scribner's Sons, (1902), Volume 19, p. 468
Vickie Elam White <10265...@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:199909292315_...@compuserve.com...
RTansey959
Reedpcgen
cold these last two weeks which has delayed everything), I post the following
for discussion:
ROBERT ABELL (B. ABT. 1605, D. 1663), OF WEYMOUTH & REHOBOTH,
MASSACHUSETTS
ROBERT ABELL, son of George and Frances (Cotton) Abell, of Stapenhill, co.
Derby and Lockington, co. Leicester, born c. 1605, died at Rehoboth, Plymouth
Colony, Massachusetts, on 20 June 1663{1}. He was in Massachusetts by 19
October 1630{2}, at Weymouth by 4 December 1638{3}, and at Rehoboth by 1643,
where he kept an inn{4}. His estate inventory was taken 9 August 1663 and the
estate distributed to his widow and children on 3 March 1663/4{5}. He
married,
either in England or after his arrival in Massachusetts (as her first husband),
Joanna [surname undetermined]{6}, who survived him and married (2) at Rehoboth
4 June 1667 William Hyde of Norwich, Connecticut{7}, to which place several of
her children by Robert Abell removed.
The will of Robert's father, George Abell, dated 8 September 1630 and proved 7
February 1631, includes the following important wording: "I bequeath to
my second sonne Robert Abell onelie a Twentie shillings peece for his childs
parte in regard of ye charges I have beene at in placeing him in a good trade
in
London w[hi]ch hee hath made noe use of since in furnishing him for newe
England where I hope he now is."{8} This proves the identification of Robert
Abell as son of George Abell of Lockington, co. Leics.
Children of Robert and Joanna (---) Abell:
i. Abraham Abell, born c. 1638, buried Weymouth 14 November 1639.{9}
ii. Mary Abell, born Weymouth 11 April 1642{10}, married by March 1663/4
Rev. Samuel Luther of Rehoboth.{11}
iii. Preserved Abell, born Rehoboth c. 1644, married Rehoboth (1) 27
September 1667 Martha Redway{12}, (2) 27 December 1686 Sarah
Bowen{13}, and (3) Boston 7 January 1706/7 Mrs. Anne West of Boston.{14}
iv. Caleb Abell, born c. 1647{15}, married (1) Norwich July 1669 Margaret Post,
and (2) 25 June 1701 Mary (Miller) Loomer.{16}
v. Joshua Abell, born c. 1649, married (1) Norwich 1 November 1677
Mehitabel Smith, and (2) November 1685 Bethiah Gager.{17}
vi. Benjamin Abell, born c. 1654, married by 1679 Hannah (---).{18}
vii. [Child, name unknown, mentioned in father's estate settlement, probably
b. c. 1654.{19}]
viii. Experience Abell, born c. 1660, married at Guilford, Connecticut 1680
John Baldwin.{20}
SECOND GENERATION:
GEORGE ABELL (father of the immigrant), son of Robert Abell of Stapenhill, co.
Derby,{21} was born c. 1561, and buried at Hemington, in the parish of
Lockington, co. Leicester 13 September 1630.{22} He matriculated at Brasenose
College, Oxford 8 December 1578 and was admitted to the Middle Temple in
1581.{23} He was styled "gentleman" in his will, dated 8 September 1630 and
proved 7 February 1630/1.{24} George married c. 1598 Frances Cotton, born
Combermere, Cheshire, c. 1573, living September 1630 (when mentioned in her
husband's will), but probably dead by 16 April 1646.{25} Frances was daughter
of Richard and Mary (Mainwaring) Cotton of Combermere, Cheshire.{26}
Children of George and Frances (Cotton) Abell:
i. Mary Abell, born c. 1600, living unmarried 16 April 1646 (when mentioned
in the will of her unmarried aunt Dorothy Cotton).
ii. George Abell, born c. 1602, married St. Mary, Nottingham, co. Notts. 9
August 1634 Mary Stanford, formerly of Laxton, co. Notts.{27}
iii. ROBERT ABELL (the immigrant) [see above].
iv. Richard Abell, born c. 1610, was living 8 September 1630 (when
mentioned in his father's will, then an apprentice).
FOR MORE DETAILED ACCOUNTS OF THE ANCESTRY, SEE:
Horace A. Abell, The Abell Family in America (Rutland, Vt., 1940), passim. [A
transcript of the will of George Abell is included in the account of George
Abell,
pp. 43-6.]
Robert Charles Anderson, The Great Migration Begins: Immigrants to New
England 1620-1633, 3 vols (Boston, 1995), 1:3-6.
Neil D. Thompson, "Abell-Cotton-Manwaring...", The Genealogist 5(1984):158-
71.
Carl Boyer, 3rd, Ancestral Lines, 3rd ed. (Santa Clarita, Ca., 1998), 1-8
[which
presents a ten generation ancestral table of the immigrant].
David Faris, Plantagenet Ancestry... (Baltimore, 1996), 1-2.
NOTES:
1. Rehoboth VR 1:50.
2. Records of the Governor and Company of the Massachusetts Bay in New England,
1628-1686, ed. Nathaniel B. Shurtleff, 5 vols. in 6 (Boston, 1853-54), 1:80.
He was admitted a freeman on 18 May 1631 (Id. 1:366).
3. Id. 1:247.
4. See the summary by Robert Charles Anderson, The Great Migration Begins:
Immigrants to New England 1620-1633, 3 vols. (Boston, 1995) 1:3-6.
5. Plymouth Colony Probate Records 2(2):14-15; also Mayflower Descendant 15:239
(1913).
6. Her name appears for the first time in her husband's estate record. Her
surname and parentage are still to be determined.
7. Rehoboth VR 1:44.
8. PCC 10 St. John.
9. Weymouth VR 2:229.
10. Id. 1:11.
11. Horace A. Abell, The Abell Family in America (Rutland, Vt., 1940), 46-7
[Hereafter cited as Abell Family]. A primary source record for this marriage
still needs to be found.
12. Rehoboth VR 1:45.
13. Id. 1:48.
14. BRC 28:7.
15. He died at Norwich 7 August 1731 in his 85th year. See George S. Porter,
Inscriptions from Gravestones in the Old Burying Ground, Norwich Town (Norwich,
1933), 32.
16. Norwich VR 1:18.
17. Id. 1:30.
18. Abell Family 54-6 explains the evidence.
19. Plymouth Colony Probate Records 2(2):14-15.
20. Abell Family 56, which discusses the evidence.
21. Will of Robert Abell, dated 18 March 1587/8, proved 17 May 1588 (PCC 33
Rutland).
22. Parish Register, Lockington, co. Leics.
23. Joseph Foster, Alumni Oxiensis, 1500-1714, 4 vols. (London, 1891), 1:2.
24. PCC 10 St. John. In his will, George Abell mentions "my brother Andrew
Cotten of Cumbermeer in ye Countie of Chester gent[leman]" and "my brother
George Cotton of Cumbermere aforesaid esquier".
25. The will of her unmarried sister Dorothy Cotton, dated 16 April 1646,
probably proved 22 April 1647, mentions Frances's daughter Mary Abell, and the
testator's sister Mary Bulkeley, but not Frances [Original will, Consistory
Court of Chester].
26. For a discussion of her parentage, see Neil D. Thompson,
"Abell-Cotton-Manwaring...," The Genealogist 5(1984):158-71.
27. Parish register, St. Mary, Nottingham, co. Notts.; and marriage license,
issued the same day [Marriage licenses, Consistory Court of Lichfield, 1634].
I see no reason to question the identification.
pcr
RTansey959
My records show that Benjamin Abell married a Hannah Baldwin in 1678 with a
child, Hannah Abell, born 15 Jan 1679 in Norwich, New London, CT.
Hmmmmmmh, if this is all true, I wonder if there's a connection between the
John Baldwin who married Experience Abell and the Hannah Baldwin above? Thanks
for your informative post......
-Roger Tansey
Gryphon801
Mrs. Hannah Wakerly on 13 Feb. 1639/40 and the baptisms of two children, Mary,
13 April 1641, and Thomas, bapt. 26 May 1642 and bur. 30 Aug. 1642. No child
of a ROBERT Abell was baptized there.
Neil D. Thompson
U...@aol.com
rtans...@aol.com writes:
<<
Hmmmmmmh, if this is all true, I wonder if there's a connection between the
John Baldwin who married Experience Abell and the Hannah Baldwin above?
Thanks
for your informative post......
-Roger Tansey
>>
According to GMB, Benjamin's wife's surname is unknown.
Always optimistic--Dave
Benjamin Hertzel
Does anyone know if Constanza de Antillon (heiress of Urgel) who was the
mother of Tereza (wife of Alfonso IV, King of Aragon, 1263 - 1336) is
related to Sunifred I, Count of Urgel (died ca. 850)? I have two children
for Sunifred: Wilfred I, Count of Barcelona (died ca. 870, leaving at
least four children); and Sunifred II, Count of Urgel (died 917, leaving
at least one son).
Thank you.
Benjamin
RTansey959
>According to GMB, Benjamin's wife's surname is unknown.
>
>Always optimistic--Dave
No, not unknown.....just unproven.
More optimistic, Roger
Todd A. Farmerie
Yes, whe was. Urgel passed from the line of Sunifred II to that of
Wifred, then again went to a younger son of Wifred's grandson Sunyer,
named Ermengol I. There followed seven Ermengols, Counts of Urgel, with
the last of whom the line ended, the title passing through a sister or
aunt (IIRC) to the immediate progenitor of Constanza.
taf
Valerio Lucchinetti
"Todd A. Farmerie" wrote:
Does anybody know the ancestors of Teresa d'Entenza ? She should belong to the
House of Barcelona also
through her father, Baron Gombaldo d'Entenza, but I never found this line.
Anyone can help
Valerio Lucchinetti
vpl...@iol.it
DavidBotts
Who was the father of Alfonso IV, King of Aragon, 1263 - 1336?
Thanks,
Dave Botts
Dave Botts<...<Steffano Maggiora<.it in 1883
"...for history, as the moral philosopher declares, 'is the record of
antiquity, the testimony of ages, the light of truth, the soul of memory, the
mistress of conduct, and the herald of ancient times....'"
1912 J. M. Dent edition of The Description of Wales by G. Cambrensis
John Steele Gordon
> Who was the father of Alfonso IV, King of Aragon, 1263 - 1336?
His father was Jaime II, who ruled Aragon from 1291 to 1327. But Alfonso
IV was born only in 1299, according to EB, not 1263.
JSG
--
http://www.familyorigins.com/users/g/o/r/John-S-Gordon
Henry Soszynski
>
>
>"Todd A. Farmerie" wrote:
>
>> Yes, whe was. Urgel passed from the line of Sunifred II to that of
>> Wifred, then again went to a younger son of Wifred's grandson Sunyer,
>> named Ermengol I. There followed seven Ermengols, Counts of Urgel, with
>> the last of whom the line ended, the title passing through a sister or
>> aunt (IIRC) to the immediate progenitor of Constanza.
>>
>> taf
>
>Does anybody know the ancestors of Teresa d'Entenza ? She should belong to
the
>House of Barcelona also
>through her father, Baron Gombaldo d'Entenza, but I never found this line.
>
>Anyone can help
>
>Valerio Lucchinetti
>vpl...@iol.it
>
de Joannis gives Bernard Guillaume II d'Entenza and unknown de Azagra as the
parents of Gombaldo. There was an earlier Gombaldo (born c1180) who was a
grandson of Hugo III Conde de Ampurias, but I don't have the intervening
generations.
Cheers,Henry
ED MANN
>
> Greetings from Texas:
>
> Who was the father of Alfonso IV, King of Aragon, 1263 - 1336?
>
>
> Dave Botts
I have:
Direct Descendants of Pedro II de Aragon-Catalonia
1 Pedro II de Aragon-Catalonia b: 1176 d: 13 Sep 1213 ref #:
(Ä105A-28)
+Marie de Montpellier b: 1182 d: 1218 ref #: Ä105A-28
2 [1] Jaime I de Aragon b: 1 Feb 1207/08 d: 25 Jul 1276 ref #:
Ä105A-29
*2nd Wife of [1] Jaime I de Aragon:
+Yolande of Hungary b: 1213 d: 12 Oct 1251 ref #: Ä105-29
3 Pedro III de Aragon b: 1240 d: 1285
+Constanza di Sicilia b: 1248 d: 1302
4 Jaime II de Aragon b: 10 Aug 1267 d: 2 Nov 1327
+Blanka d'Anjou di Sicilia
5 Alfonso IV de Aragon b: 1299 d: 24 Jan 1335/36
--
FWIW; AFAIK; IMHO; YMMV; yadda, yadda, yadda.
Regards, Ed Mann mailto:edl...@mail2.lcia.com
References:
Ä = Weis, _Ancestral_Roots_, 7th ed.
AACPW = Roberts & Reitwiesner, _American Ancestors and Cousins of
the Princess of Wales_, [page].
AAP = Roberts, _Ancestors_of_American_Presidents_, [page] or
[Pres. # : page].
BP1 = _Burke's_Presidential_Families_, 1st ed. [page].
BPci = _Burke's_Peerage_, 101st ed., [page].
BRF = Weir, _Britain's_Royal_Families_, [page].
BxP = _Burke's_Dormant_&_Extinct_Peerages_, [page].
EC1 = Redlich, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol I, [page].
EC2 = Langston & Buck, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol II,
[page].
EC3 = Buck & Beard, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol II,
[page].
F = Faris, _Plantagenet_Ancestry_, [page:para].
FMS = Stewart, _Forgotten_Monarchy_of_Scotland_, [page].
NK1 = Roberts, _Notable_Kin_Volume_One_, [page].
Π= Hardy, _Colonial_Families_of_the_Southern_States_of_America_,
[page].
S = Stuart, _Royalty_for_Commoners_, 2d ed. Caveat emptor.
W = Weis, _Magna_Charta_Sureties,_1215_, 4th ed.
WFT = Broderbund's World Family Tree CD, [vol]:[num] Caveat emptor.
WMC = Wurt's Magna Charta, [vol]:[page]
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> Bingo pcr, (thus far at least).
>
> My records show that Benjamin Abell married a Hannah Baldwin in 1678 with a
> child, Hannah Abell, born 15 Jan 1679 in Norwich, New London, CT.
>
> John Baldwin who married Experience Abell and the Hannah Baldwin above? Thanks
> for your informative post......
I note that Torey shows the wife of Benjamin as Hannah [? BALDWIN].
John Baldwin, husband of Experience Abell was son of John and Hannah
(Birchard) Baldwin of Guilford (this is the immigrant typically called
John Baldwin of Norwich). This couple did have a daughter Hannah
Baldwin, b. 6 Oct. 1656, but none of my sources show a husband for her.
taf
Adrian Channing
>
> I note that Torey shows the wife of Benjamin as Hannah [? BALDWIN].
> John Baldwin, husband of Experience Abell was son of John and Hannah
> (Birchard) Baldwin of Guilford (this is the immigrant typically called
> John Baldwin of Norwich). This couple did have a daughter Hannah
> Baldwin, b. 6 Oct. 1656, but none of my sources show a husband for her.
>
I guess your mean Guildford in county Surrey - the "d" is usually silent.
regards, Adrian
Adrian (Surrey, UK) ACha...@CompuServe.Com
RTansey959
>> I note that Torey shows the wife of Benjamin as Hannah [? BALDWIN].
>> John Baldwin, husband of Experience Abell was son of John and Hannah
>> (Birchard) Baldwin of Guilford (this is the immigrant typically called
>> John Baldwin of Norwich). This couple did have a daughter Hannah
>> Baldwin, b. 6 Oct. 1656, but none of my sources show a husband for her.
>>
>
>
In re surname of Benjamin Abell's wife, Hannah _____:
While it's true that the GMB (at page 5) lists Hannah's surname as unknown,
Anderson cites to page 54 of The Abell Family in America. On that page, the
authors note that Hannah "may have been [the]daughter of John Baldwin." It's
odd that Anderson doesn't at least mention this possibility, but perhaps he's
more concerned with first generations only?
In any event, other sources have simply stated that Hannah was John Baldwin's
daughter. See e g., Boston Transcript, ("It appears that Hannah, who married
Benjamin Abell, was the daughter of John Baldwin, Sr.") 4 Dec 1929 (9235).
Other sources revolve around their children. Hannah and Benjamin Abell were
the son and daugher of Benjamin Abell and the Hannah in question. There are
IGI records which list these children's parents as Benjamin Abell and Hannah
Baldwin. I didn't, however, check to see the sources behind these IGIs because
time was running out in the library and, ultimately, it didn't matter for my
immediate purposes.
I'm descended from Robert Abell through his daughter, Hannah Abell, who married
one Ebenezer Metcalfe. Since that is the relationship that interests me, it
doesn't matter, for those purposes, what Benjamin's wife's maiden name may have
been. .....
In any event, I am curious about sources in general though. Is the Boston
Transcript considered reliable? More reliable than, say, a family history? Or
does it depend on the particular columnist in question? Can anyone recommend a
good reference material that discusses sources and their relative reliability?
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> taf wrote,
> >
> > I note that Torey shows the wife of Benjamin as Hannah [? BALDWIN].
> > John Baldwin, husband of Experience Abell was son of John and Hannah
> > (Birchard) Baldwin of Guilford (this is the immigrant typically called
> > John Baldwin of Norwich). This couple did have a daughter Hannah
> > Baldwin, b. 6 Oct. 1656, but none of my sources show a husband for her.
> >
>
No. I may have misspelled it, but I mean the town in Connecticut.
taf
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> In re surname of Benjamin Abell's wife, Hannah _____:
>
> While it's true that the GMB (at page 5) lists Hannah's surname as unknown,
> Anderson cites to page 54 of The Abell Family in America. On that page, the
> authors note that Hannah "may have been [the]daughter of John Baldwin." It's
> odd that Anderson doesn't at least mention this possibility, but perhaps he's
> more concerned with first generations only?
I think he tended to avoid speculation if he thought there was no
documentary basis for it.
> In any event, other sources have simply stated that Hannah was John Baldwin's
> daughter. See e g., Boston Transcript, ("It appears that Hannah, who married
> Benjamin Abell, was the daughter of John Baldwin, Sr.") 4 Dec 1929 (9235).
>
> Other sources revolve around their children. Hannah and Benjamin Abell were
> the son and daugher of Benjamin Abell and the Hannah in question. There are
> IGI records which list these children's parents as Benjamin Abell and Hannah
> Baldwin.
These 'other sources' are probably not independent of each other. I
suspect they all trace back to one person's guess. The Baldwins did
have a daughter Hannah of the right approximate age, but is there
anything else that supports the identity of this daughter with
Benjamin's wife. Did they have any other children, whose names might be
indicative of a Baldwin connection, for example a John or a Thomas?
> In any event, I am curious about sources in general though. Is the Boston
> Transcript considered reliable? More reliable than, say, a family history? Or
> does it depend on the particular columnist in question?
The BET is sort of the precursor of an internet newsgroup. The
information is only as good as the person who submitted it, and their
sorces, which are usually not provided. It was an open column, and
anyone could put anything in there - well researched and well
documented, speculation, family tradition, or outright invention.
taf
richard barney
could be directed toward Richard Bowen.....both are my ancestors....both
seem to be quesionable. RWB
J. E. Sanchez
>
> Greetings from Texas:
>
> Who was the father of Alfonso IV, King of Aragon, 1263 - 1336?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dave Botts
>
> "...for history, as the moral philosopher declares, 'is the record of
> antiquity, the testimony of ages, the light of truth, the soul of memory, the
> mistress of conduct, and the herald of ancient times....'"
>
> 1912 J. M. Dent edition of The Description of Wales by G. Cambrensis
Hi,
Alfonso IV (el benigno) reino entre los años (1327-1336) su padre el
Jaime II (el Leal) (1291-1327).
Creo que estas son las fechas que aparecen en mis fuentes de
informacion.
Saludos,
Jose E.