Suthen, wife of Duncan, King of Scots: a conjecture
John P. Ravilious
Dear Stewart,
Thanks for your recent updates and additions to the
Henry Project. The effort, and the quality achieved, are
both appreciated.
With regard to the existing page for Suthen, wife of
Duncan, king of Scots (1034-1040), I have developed a
conjecture based in part on an interesting alternate
theory. In his article in "Medieval Scotland: Crown,
Lordship and Community", Alan MacQuarrie wrote concerning
Eoghan (als Owain or Ywain), 'the last king of
Strathclyde':
' Ywain was the last of the old line of the kings of
Strathclyde. It is possible that he had a daughter
who was married to Duncan, grandson of Malcolm II.
In spite of the doubtful testimony of Fordun, Duncan
is the only king of Strathclyde who can be demon-
strated to have succeeded to the kingship of the
Scots on his predecessor's death. As pointed out
already, apart from Duncan the only king of
Strathclyde who was certainly not a member of the
old native dynasty was Donald son of Aed (d. x 934),
whose aunt had been married to Rhun son of
Arthgal;...
It may be suggested that Duncan likewise had some
female connection which entitled him to the
kingship of Strathclyde. ' [1]
This same suggestion is carried to the genealogical
chart on p. 6, which gives in part the following:
' Ywain (d. 1018)
I
I ?
I
daughter = Duncan, king of Scots (d. 1040)
I
I
Malcolm III, king of Scots (1057-93) ' [2]
I had not seen this suggestion previously, and it
stands in opposition to the widely accepted statement in
Fordun that Duncan's wife was a kinswoman (sometimes
called niece) of Siward, earl of Northumbria [3].
MacQuarrie's theory is interesting, but unfortunately
there is not even the poorest contemporary or
near-contemporary documentary source on which to support
this. I do see some indirect evidence, which cannot be
called strong in any event:
1. As noted by MacQuarrie, Earl Siward was sent
by King Edward (the Confessor) to replace
MacBeth with Malcolm, and that
' .. as the king directed, appointed
Malcolm, son of the king of the
Cumbrians, king. ' [4]
This does not establish that Duncan had
been king of Strathclyde (Cumbria) by
hereditary right, but it does give the
appearance that he was considered the
(presumably rightful) king of Strathclyde,
even in Northumberland.
2. The onomastic evidence is clearly weak,
but intriguing. Of the last 4 kings of
Strathclyde, the father was Dyfnwal or
Dyfnwallon, the Gaelic equivalent of
whose name is Domhnall. Of his three
sons, the second was named Malcolm. If
MacQuarrie's suggestion is correct, and
Duncan I of Scots [Donnchad mac Crínáin]
had married the daughter of Ywain of
Strathclyde, the closest namesakes for
Malcolm III 'Ceann-mor' and his brother
Donald 'Ban' would have been their
great-uncle Malcolm of Strathclyde (one
generation closer than Malcolm II of
Scots, if more removed chronologically)
and his father Dyfnwal [Domhnall] (see
the conjectural chart below).
As you noted in the 'Henry Project' page for Suthen,
she is allegedly the mother of Malcolm 'Ceann-mor': she is
not stated to have been the mother of Domhnall (or Donald)
or any other issue of Duncan, and was not necessarily the
only wife of Duncan. That these facts were provided by
John of Fordun, some centuries removed from the events in
question, provides a rather weak source, but then there
is no other contemporary source on which to rely.
I must observe that the mother of Malcolm and Donald
could have been both a daughter of Ywain of Strathclyde,
and a kinswoman of Siward, which has the benefit of
reconciling the two apparently divergent identifications.
This proposed revision in the pedigree has the added
'benefit' of reducing any possible consanguinity between
David, King of Scots (1124-1153) and his wife Matilda,
the granddaughter of Earl Siward. If Suthen's mother was
the wife of Ywain of Strathclyde and the sibling of a
parent of Earl Siward, David and Matilda would have been
related in the 4th and 4th degrees; if the relationship
was more distant, so to the consanguinity.
[NOTE: the following chart is conjectural, and
intended for discussion purposes only.
Conjectured relationships indicated: ...... ]
Ywain [Gael. Eoghan]
fl. 934 -
I
I
Dyfnwal [Gael. DOMHNALL]
d. 975
________I_____________
I I I
Rhydderch MALCOLM Ywain = NN
fl. 971 d. 997 d. 1015 : 'kinswoman
(1018 ?) : of Siward'
......:
:
Duncan [Donnchad] = NN [Suthen ?]
k of Strathclyde I
1018-1040 I
k of Scots I
1034-1040 I
_______________I__________
I I I
MALCOLM III DOMHNALL Maelmare
k of Scots k of Scots of Athol
1057-1093 1093x1097
I'd be interested in your thoughts on the foregoing.
And, of course, if there is any relevant documentation or
comment, that would be appreciated.
Cheers,
John
NOTES
[1] Alan MacQuarrie, The Kings of Strathclyde, c. 400-1018
in Alexander Grant and Keith J. Stringer, eds.,
Medieval Scotland: Crown, Lordship and Community
(Edinburgh: Edinburgh Univ. Press, 1993), p. 17.
[2] MacQuarrie, ibid., p. 6.
[3] See discussion re: same in The Henry Project
URL
http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/prov/suthe000.htm
[4] Simeon of Durham's History of the Kings of England
(trans. Rev. Joseph Stevenson), The Church Historians
of England (London: Beeleys, 1855), III(II):538.
This was evidently also recorded in the Annals
of Tigernac.
* John P. Ravilious
Stewart Baldwin
> With regard to the existing page for Suthen, wife of
> Duncan, king of Scots (1034-1040), I have developed a
> conjecture based in part on an interesting alternate
> theory. In his article in "Medieval Scotland: Crown,
> Lordship and Community", Alan MacQuarrie wrote concerning
> Eoghan (als Owain or Ywain), 'the last king of
> Strathclyde':
> ' Ywain was the last of the old line of the kings of
> Strathclyde. It is possible that he had a daughter
> who was married to Duncan, grandson of Malcolm II.
> ... '
[snip]
This kind of conjecture is common in cases where a possession switches from
one family to another. Unfortunately, there is no supporting evidence for
this conjecture, nor do we have enough information about the culture of
Strathclyde to know whether or inheritance through females was practiced by
them.
> MacQuarrie's theory is interesting, but unfortunately
> there is not even the poorest contemporary or
> near-contemporary documentary source on which to support
> this. I do see some indirect evidence, which cannot be
> called strong in any event:
> 1. As noted by MacQuarrie, Earl Siward was sent
> by King Edward (the Confessor) to replace
> MacBeth with Malcolm, and that
> ' .. as the king directed, appointed
> Malcolm, son of the king of the
> Cumbrians, king. ' [4]
> This does not establish that Duncan had
> been king of Strathclyde (Cumbria) by
> hereditary right, but it does give the
> appearance that he was considered the
> (presumably rightful) king of Strathclyde,
> even in Northumberland.
I'm not sure that the term "rightful" has any significant meaning in this
early context. This was long before the time when rules were set up to
determine the order of precedence in succession to a throne.
> 2. The onomastic evidence is clearly weak,
> but intriguing. Of the last 4 kings of
> Strathclyde, the father was Dyfnwal or
> Dyfnwallon, the Gaelic equivalent of
> whose name is Domhnall. Of his three
> sons, the second was named Malcolm. If
> MacQuarrie's suggestion is correct, and
> Duncan I of Scots [Donnchad mac Crínáin]
> had married the daughter of Ywain of
> Strathclyde, the closest namesakes for
> Malcolm III 'Ceann-mor' and his brother
> Donald 'Ban' would have been their
> great-uncle Malcolm of Strathclyde (one
> generation closer than Malcolm II of
> Scots, if more removed chronologically)
> and his father Dyfnwal [Domhnall] (see
> the conjectural chart below).
I find it difficult to believe that Malcolm III was named after anybody but
Malclom II, his father's maternal grandfather and the source of Duncan's
claim to the throne. As somebody who succeeded by virtue of a claim through
his mother (rare in Celtic Britain), it would have been useful for Duncan to
emphasize continuity with the earlier "dynasty" by naming his intended
successor after Malclom II. Since Domnall was a common name of previous
kings of both Scotland (Alba) and Dál Riata, that also seems the most likely
source for that name. Onomastic arguments rarely have any force in
supporting hypothetical relationships when there is already an obvious
source for the names in the known ancestry.
I am skeptical. I really don't see much to support this suggestion beyond
the fact that Ywain and Duncan were apparently kings over the same kingdom.
Stewart Baldwin
Jwc...@aol.com
In a message dated 1/17/2008 10:50:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
the...@aol.com writes:
Thursday, 17 January, 2008
Dear Stewart,
Thanks for your recent updates and additions to the
Henry Project. The effort, and the quality achieved, are
both appreciated.
With regard to the existing page for Suthen, wife of
Duncan, king of Scots (1034-1040), I have developed a
conjecture based in part on an interesting alternate
theory. In his article in "Medieval Scotland: Crown,
Lordship and Community", Alan MacQuarrie wrote concerning
Eoghan (als Owain or Ywain), 'the last king of
Strathclyde':
' Ywain was the last of the old line of the kings of
Strathclyde. It is possible that he had a daughter
who was married to Duncan, grandson of Malcolm II.
MacQuarrie's theory is interesting, but unfortunately
there is not even the poorest contemporary or
near-contemporary documentary source on which to support
this. I do see some indirect evidence, which cannot be
called strong in any event:
1. As noted by MacQuarrie, Earl Siward was sent
by King Edward (the Confessor) to replace
MacBeth with Malcolm, and that
' .. as the king directed, appointed
Malcolm, son of the king of the
Cumbrians, king. ' [4]
This does not establish that Duncan had
been king of Strathclyde (Cumbria) by
hereditary right, but it does give the
appearance that he was considered the
(presumably rightful) king of Strathclyde,
even in Northumberland.
2. The onomastic evidence is clearly weak,
but intriguing. Of the last 4 kings of
Strathclyde, the father was Dyfnwal or
Dyfnwallon, the Gaelic equivalent of
whose name is Domhnall. Of his three
sons, the second was named Malcolm. If
MacQuarrie's suggestion is correct, and
Duncan I of Scots [Donnchad mac Crínáin]
had married the daughter of Ywain of
Strathclyde, the closest namesakes for
Malcolm III 'Ceann-mor' and his brother
Donald 'Ban' would have been their
great-uncle Malcolm of Strathclyde (one
generation closer than Malcolm II of
Scots, if more removed chronologically)
and his father Dyfnwal [Domhnall] (see
the conjectural chart below).
As you noted in the 'Henry Project' page for Suthen,
Cheers,
John
NOTES
[1] Alan MacQuarrie, The Kings of Strathclyde, c. 400-1018
in Alexander Grant and Keith J. Stringer, eds.,
Medieval Scotland: Crown, Lordship and Community
(Edinburgh: Edinburgh Univ. Press, 1993), p. 17.
[2] MacQuarrie, ibid., p. 6.
[3] See discussion re: same in The Henry Project
URL
http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/prov/suthe000.htm
[4] Simeon of Durham's History of the Kings of England
(trans. Rev. Joseph Stevenson), The Church Historians
of England (London: Beeleys, 1855), III(II):538.
This was evidently also recorded in the Annals
of Tigernac.
* John P. Ravilious
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the body of the message
Dear John Ravilious,
I`m curious if Owain II (or
IV), King of Strathclyde ruled between 997-1015 what are the chances that
his wife was actually related through Siward Bjornson who gained the Earldom
of Northumbria by marrying Alflaed daughter of Aldred, Earl of Northumbria
and granddaughter of Uchtred, Earl of Nothumbria . Bjorn was apparently a
son of Ulf Thorgilson and Astrid the daughter of Sweyn I Forkbeard (died 1014)
King of Denmark rather than her., If We take the view that Owain II married
a sister of either Siward or Aelflaed then Waltheof II was a 1st cousin of
Duncan I`s wife Suthen and Maud wife of David I, King of Scots was a 2nd
cousin of her father in law Malcolm III. if Suthen was a granddaughter of
Ulf through a different child than Bjorn then 1st cousin of Siward, 2nd of
Waltheof , e cetera. Ulf`s known children according to a web page by David
Beckwith are Bjorn, Sweyn II, King of Denmark, Asbjorn and Niels. any of whom
could of fathered Suthen.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
t...@clearwire.net
> I`m curious if Owain II (or
> IV), King of Strathclyde ruled between 997-1015 what are the chances that
> his wife was actually related through Siward Bjornson who gained the Earldom
> of Northumbria by marrying Alflaed daughter of Aldred, Earl of Northumbria
> and granddaughter of Uchtred, Earl of Nothumbria . Bjorn was apparently a
> son of Ulf Thorgilson and Astrid the daughter of Sweyn I Forkbeard (died 1014)
> King of Denmark rather than her., If We take the view that Owain II married
> a sister of either Siward or Aelflaed then Waltheof II was a 1st cousin of
> Duncan I`s wife Suthen and Maud wife of David I, King of Scots was a 2nd
> cousin of her father in law Malcolm III. if Suthen was a granddaughter of
> Ulf through a different child than Bjorn then 1st cousin of Siward, 2nd of
> Waltheof , e cetera. Ulf`s known children according to a web page by David
> Beckwith are Bjorn, Sweyn II, King of Denmark, Asbjorn and Niels. any of whom
> could of fathered Suthen.
I don't think this line of speculation will prove productive. The
pedigrees that trace Siward to Sweyn are late and unreliable. Earlier
traditions make him son of Bjorn Bearson, (by legend, the half-human
progeny of a woman and a bear, but some recent speculation has
suggested the patronymic might be a corruption of 'Beras-son'). It
seems someone here has replaced a Bear with a wolf (Ulf). There are
traditions that Siward was akin to Canute, but this reconstruction is
both too close and too distant: a relationship seemingly too close not
to have drawn comment, while making Siward the grandson of Canute's
sister seems too much temporal separation.
taf