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Issues with an Edward I Descent for Hester Clifton, Lady Temple of Stowe (1569-1656)
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Brad Verity
Sep 5, 2012, 8:08:17 PM9/5/12
to
It was Robert O'Connor who first brought this line of descent to the
attention of the newsgroup, in September 2003:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.genealogy.medieval/msg/df24af1521458b47?hl=en
And again in July 2004:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.genealogy.medieval/msg/ec11c1b64302a3fc?hl=en
The descent is as follows (with dates as I have them in my database):
Edward I had
1) Elizabeth of England (1282-1316) m. 2) Humphrey de Bohun, Earl of
Hereford (1276-1322), and had
2) Eleanor de Bohun (c.1310-1363) m. 1) James Butler, 1st Earl of
Ormond (1305-1338), and had
3) Pernel Butler (c.1335-1368) m. Gilbert, 3rd Lord Talbot (c.
1332-1387), and had
4) Richard, 4th Lord Talbot (1361-1396) m. Ankaret Lestrange
(1361-1413), and had
5) Alice Talbot (d. 1436) m. 1) Sir Thomas Barre, heir of Rotherwas
(d. 1420), and had
6) Elizabeth Barre (c.1414-1468) m. Sir Edmund Cornewall, heir of
Burford (c.1382-1435), and had
7) Thomas Cornewall of Burford (c.1431-aft.1472) m. Elizabeth Lenthall
(d. 1489), and had
8) Anne Cornewall m. Peter Blount of Sodington Hall (c.1459-1527), and
had
9) Thomas Blount of Sodington Hall (d. 1562), who is said to have had
10) Elizabeth Blount m. William Clifton of Barrington Court (d. 1564),
and had
11) Hester Clifton (c.1535-1586) m. Miles Sandys of Fladbury (c.
1530-1601), and had
12) Hester Clifton (c.1569-1656) m. Sir Thomas Temple, 1st Baronet of
Stowe (1567-1637), and had
13) Sir John Temple of Biddlesden (1593-1632), ancestor of Franklin D.
Roosevelt
Generations 1 thru 9 above are sound. It's when we get to Generation
#10 that there are some red flags. As Robert pointed out in 2004, the
Clifton of Clifton pedigree in the 1569 Visitation of Nottinghamshire
states that the wife of William Clifton of Barrington Court was
"Elizabeth d. of Thomas Blount of Sodington in Com. Worcester":
http://www.archive.org/stream/visitationscoun01britgoog#page/n32/mode/2up
Unfortunately I don't yet have enough information on the 15th-century
Cornewalls of Burford to make estimates on the birthdates of Anne
Cornewall (Generation 8 above), but we do have an estimated birthdate
of "about 1459" for Anne's husband Peter Blount, so very likely 1480
would be about the earliest their son Thomas could be born.
According to the Clifton pedigree from the Visitation of
Nottinghamshire, William Clifton of Barrington Court (in Generation 10
above) was the 4th of 9 sons of Sir Gervase Clifton of Clifton
(1438-1491) & his 1st wife Alice Neville. We know that Sir Gervase
married his second wife Agnes Constable (d. 1506), widow of Sir Walter
Griffith of Burton Agnes (d. 1481) on 10 September 1483. If the
pedigree is correct, this means the latest that William Clifton could
have been born is 1478.
Is it possible that a man born by 1478 could live to 1564 and age 86?
Yes. Is it likely? No. Something seems off here. This chronology
also has William Clifton born before his own father-in-law Thomas
Blount. Again, not impossible, but not likely either.
The Blount pedigree from the 1569 Visitation of Worcestershire is
here:
http://www.archive.org/stream/visitationcount02mundgoog#page/n33/mode/2up
It assigns a total of 5 children to Thomas Blount of Sodington, three
from his first wife Katherine Stanford, and two from his second wife
Joyce Shirley. I can only locate dates for two of those children so
far, both by the first wife:
1) Walter Blount of Sodington Hall, died 7 September 1589. Source:
Hal Bradley (http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/
~hwbradley/aqwg2808.htm)
2) Dorothy Blount married William Heath of Alvechurch (born by 1533;
will proved 3 February 1570), and survived him. Source: Heath's bio
in HOP: http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/heath-william-1533-6870
Unfortunately, the dates above do not support a sibling who was
married to a man born by 1478, and herself a grandmother by 1564
(HOP's estimated birthdate for Edwin Sandys, eldest son of Miles
Sandys & Hester Clifton). That, combined with the lack of any mention
of a Clifton/Blount marriage in the 1569 Blount Visitation pedigree,
make the parentage ascribed to William Clifton of Barrington's wife
Elizabeth in the Clifton Visitation pedigree likely an error (with
additional chronological red flags on the parentage the pedigree
ascribes to William himself).
There may be a Clifton/Blount connection but further research is
needed, and the descent above must be viewed as very unlikely at
Generations 9 thru 11.
Cheers, -------------Brad
attention of the newsgroup, in September 2003:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.genealogy.medieval/msg/df24af1521458b47?hl=en
And again in July 2004:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.genealogy.medieval/msg/ec11c1b64302a3fc?hl=en
The descent is as follows (with dates as I have them in my database):
Edward I had
1) Elizabeth of England (1282-1316) m. 2) Humphrey de Bohun, Earl of
Hereford (1276-1322), and had
2) Eleanor de Bohun (c.1310-1363) m. 1) James Butler, 1st Earl of
Ormond (1305-1338), and had
3) Pernel Butler (c.1335-1368) m. Gilbert, 3rd Lord Talbot (c.
1332-1387), and had
4) Richard, 4th Lord Talbot (1361-1396) m. Ankaret Lestrange
(1361-1413), and had
5) Alice Talbot (d. 1436) m. 1) Sir Thomas Barre, heir of Rotherwas
(d. 1420), and had
6) Elizabeth Barre (c.1414-1468) m. Sir Edmund Cornewall, heir of
Burford (c.1382-1435), and had
7) Thomas Cornewall of Burford (c.1431-aft.1472) m. Elizabeth Lenthall
(d. 1489), and had
8) Anne Cornewall m. Peter Blount of Sodington Hall (c.1459-1527), and
had
9) Thomas Blount of Sodington Hall (d. 1562), who is said to have had
10) Elizabeth Blount m. William Clifton of Barrington Court (d. 1564),
and had
11) Hester Clifton (c.1535-1586) m. Miles Sandys of Fladbury (c.
1530-1601), and had
12) Hester Clifton (c.1569-1656) m. Sir Thomas Temple, 1st Baronet of
Stowe (1567-1637), and had
13) Sir John Temple of Biddlesden (1593-1632), ancestor of Franklin D.
Roosevelt
Generations 1 thru 9 above are sound. It's when we get to Generation
#10 that there are some red flags. As Robert pointed out in 2004, the
Clifton of Clifton pedigree in the 1569 Visitation of Nottinghamshire
states that the wife of William Clifton of Barrington Court was
"Elizabeth d. of Thomas Blount of Sodington in Com. Worcester":
http://www.archive.org/stream/visitationscoun01britgoog#page/n32/mode/2up
Unfortunately I don't yet have enough information on the 15th-century
Cornewalls of Burford to make estimates on the birthdates of Anne
Cornewall (Generation 8 above), but we do have an estimated birthdate
of "about 1459" for Anne's husband Peter Blount, so very likely 1480
would be about the earliest their son Thomas could be born.
According to the Clifton pedigree from the Visitation of
Nottinghamshire, William Clifton of Barrington Court (in Generation 10
above) was the 4th of 9 sons of Sir Gervase Clifton of Clifton
(1438-1491) & his 1st wife Alice Neville. We know that Sir Gervase
married his second wife Agnes Constable (d. 1506), widow of Sir Walter
Griffith of Burton Agnes (d. 1481) on 10 September 1483. If the
pedigree is correct, this means the latest that William Clifton could
have been born is 1478.
Is it possible that a man born by 1478 could live to 1564 and age 86?
Yes. Is it likely? No. Something seems off here. This chronology
also has William Clifton born before his own father-in-law Thomas
Blount. Again, not impossible, but not likely either.
The Blount pedigree from the 1569 Visitation of Worcestershire is
here:
http://www.archive.org/stream/visitationcount02mundgoog#page/n33/mode/2up
It assigns a total of 5 children to Thomas Blount of Sodington, three
from his first wife Katherine Stanford, and two from his second wife
Joyce Shirley. I can only locate dates for two of those children so
far, both by the first wife:
1) Walter Blount of Sodington Hall, died 7 September 1589. Source:
Hal Bradley (http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/
~hwbradley/aqwg2808.htm)
2) Dorothy Blount married William Heath of Alvechurch (born by 1533;
will proved 3 February 1570), and survived him. Source: Heath's bio
in HOP: http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/heath-william-1533-6870
Unfortunately, the dates above do not support a sibling who was
married to a man born by 1478, and herself a grandmother by 1564
(HOP's estimated birthdate for Edwin Sandys, eldest son of Miles
Sandys & Hester Clifton). That, combined with the lack of any mention
of a Clifton/Blount marriage in the 1569 Blount Visitation pedigree,
make the parentage ascribed to William Clifton of Barrington's wife
Elizabeth in the Clifton Visitation pedigree likely an error (with
additional chronological red flags on the parentage the pedigree
ascribes to William himself).
There may be a Clifton/Blount connection but further research is
needed, and the descent above must be viewed as very unlikely at
Generations 9 thru 11.
Cheers, -------------Brad
John Higgins
Sep 6, 2012, 1:10:59 AM9/6/12
to
On Sep 5, 5:08 pm, Brad Verity <royaldesc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> It was Robert O'Connor who first brought this line of descent to the
> attention of the newsgroup, in September 2003:http://groups.google.com/group/soc.genealogy.medieval/msg/df24af15214...
> It was Robert O'Connor who first brought this line of descent to the
>
> And again in July 2004:http://groups.google.com/group/soc.genealogy.medieval/msg/ec11c1b6430...
>
> Unfortunately I don't yet have enough information on the 15th-century
> Cornewalls of Burford to make estimates on the birthdates of Anne
> Cornewall (Generation 8 above), but we do have an estimated birthdate
> of "about 1459" for Anne's husband Peter Blount, so very likely 1480
> would be about the earliest their son Thomas could be born.
>
> According to the Clifton pedigree from the Visitation of
> Nottinghamshire, William Clifton of Barrington Court (in Generation 10
> above) was the 4th of 9 sons of Sir Gervase Clifton of Clifton
> (1438-1491) & his 1st wife Alice Neville. We know that Sir Gervase
> married his second wife Agnes Constable (d. 1506), widow of Sir Walter
> Griffith of Burton Agnes (d. 1481) on 10 September 1483. If the
> pedigree is correct, this means the latest that William Clifton could
> have been born is 1478.
>
> Is it possible that a man born by 1478 could live to 1564 and age 86?
> Yes. Is it likely? No. Something seems off here. This chronology
> also has William Clifton born before his own father-in-law Thomas
> Blount. Again, not impossible, but not likely either.
>
> The Blount pedigree from the 1569 Visitation of Worcestershire is
> here:http://www.archive.org/stream/visitationcount02mundgoog#page/n33/mode...
> Unfortunately I don't yet have enough information on the 15th-century
> Cornewalls of Burford to make estimates on the birthdates of Anne
> Cornewall (Generation 8 above), but we do have an estimated birthdate
> of "about 1459" for Anne's husband Peter Blount, so very likely 1480
> would be about the earliest their son Thomas could be born.
>
> According to the Clifton pedigree from the Visitation of
> Nottinghamshire, William Clifton of Barrington Court (in Generation 10
> above) was the 4th of 9 sons of Sir Gervase Clifton of Clifton
> (1438-1491) & his 1st wife Alice Neville. We know that Sir Gervase
> married his second wife Agnes Constable (d. 1506), widow of Sir Walter
> Griffith of Burton Agnes (d. 1481) on 10 September 1483. If the
> pedigree is correct, this means the latest that William Clifton could
> have been born is 1478.
>
> Is it possible that a man born by 1478 could live to 1564 and age 86?
> Yes. Is it likely? No. Something seems off here. This chronology
> also has William Clifton born before his own father-in-law Thomas
> Blount. Again, not impossible, but not likely either.
>
> The Blount pedigree from the 1569 Visitation of Worcestershire is
>
> It assigns a total of 5 children to Thomas Blount of Sodington, three
> from his first wife Katherine Stanford, and two from his second wife
> Joyce Shirley. I can only locate dates for two of those children so
> far, both by the first wife:
>
> 1) Walter Blount of Sodington Hall, died 7 September 1589. Source:
> Hal Bradley (http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/
> ~hwbradley/aqwg2808.htm)
>
> 2) Dorothy Blount married William Heath of Alvechurch (born by 1533;
> will proved 3 February 1570), and survived him. Source: Heath's bio
> in HOP: http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/heat...
> It assigns a total of 5 children to Thomas Blount of Sodington, three
> from his first wife Katherine Stanford, and two from his second wife
> Joyce Shirley. I can only locate dates for two of those children so
> far, both by the first wife:
>
> 1) Walter Blount of Sodington Hall, died 7 September 1589. Source:
> Hal Bradley (http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/
> ~hwbradley/aqwg2808.htm)
>
> 2) Dorothy Blount married William Heath of Alvechurch (born by 1533;
> will proved 3 February 1570), and survived him. Source: Heath's bio
>
> Unfortunately, the dates above do not support a sibling who was
> married to a man born by 1478, and herself a grandmother by 1564
> (HOP's estimated birthdate for Edwin Sandys, eldest son of Miles
> Sandys & Hester Clifton). That, combined with the lack of any mention
> of a Clifton/Blount marriage in the 1569 Blount Visitation pedigree,
> make the parentage ascribed to William Clifton of Barrington's wife
> Elizabeth in the Clifton Visitation pedigree likely an error (with
> additional chronological red flags on the parentage the pedigree
> ascribes to William himself).
>
> There may be a Clifton/Blount connection but further research is
> needed, and the descent above must be viewed as very unlikely at
> Generations 9 thru 11.
>
> Cheers, -------------Brad
Brad:
> Unfortunately, the dates above do not support a sibling who was
> married to a man born by 1478, and herself a grandmother by 1564
> (HOP's estimated birthdate for Edwin Sandys, eldest son of Miles
> Sandys & Hester Clifton). That, combined with the lack of any mention
> of a Clifton/Blount marriage in the 1569 Blount Visitation pedigree,
> make the parentage ascribed to William Clifton of Barrington's wife
> Elizabeth in the Clifton Visitation pedigree likely an error (with
> additional chronological red flags on the parentage the pedigree
> ascribes to William himself).
>
> There may be a Clifton/Blount connection but further research is
> needed, and the descent above must be viewed as very unlikely at
> Generations 9 thru 11.
>
> Cheers, -------------Brad
I've been occupied with out-of-town visitors and haven't had time to
thoroughly peruse this interesting post, but I note from my files that
back in Sept. 2004 Robert O'Connor and Richard Borthwick seemed to
have established that William Clifton of Barrington was NOT the son of
Sir Gervase Clifton, but was instead son of John Clifton of Walsingham
Parva, Norfolk - who MAY (or may not) have been related to Sir Gervase
Clifton. See this post:
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2004-09/1095587580
I haven't had a chance to confirm whether Robert's conclusion still
stands, but it may help to resolve the chronological difficulties in
the connection that you mention above.
Brad Verity
Sep 6, 2012, 12:42:20 PM9/6/12
to
On Wednesday, September 5, 2012 10:10:59 PM UTC-7, John Higgins wrote:
> I've been occupied with out-of-town visitors and haven't had time to
>
> thoroughly peruse this interesting post, but I note from my files that
>
> back in Sept. 2004 Robert O'Connor and Richard Borthwick seemed to
>
> have established that William Clifton of Barrington was NOT the son of
>
> Sir Gervase Clifton, but was instead son of John Clifton of Walsingham
>
> Parva, Norfolk - who MAY (or may not) have been related to Sir Gervase
>
> Clifton. See this post:
>
> http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2004-09/1095587580
>
>
>
> I haven't had a chance to confirm whether Robert's conclusion still
>
> stands, but it may help to resolve the chronological difficulties in
>
> the connection that you mention above.
Thanks for the link John. Robert O'Connor has done excellent work with this line.
> I've been occupied with out-of-town visitors and haven't had time to
>
> thoroughly peruse this interesting post, but I note from my files that
>
> back in Sept. 2004 Robert O'Connor and Richard Borthwick seemed to
>
> have established that William Clifton of Barrington was NOT the son of
>
> Sir Gervase Clifton, but was instead son of John Clifton of Walsingham
>
> Parva, Norfolk - who MAY (or may not) have been related to Sir Gervase
>
> Clifton. See this post:
>
> http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2004-09/1095587580
>
>
>
> I haven't had a chance to confirm whether Robert's conclusion still
>
> stands, but it may help to resolve the chronological difficulties in
>
> the connection that you mention above.
Yes, that does resolve the chronological difficulty around William Clifton of Barrington Court (d. 1564).
We know William Clifton & his wife Elizabeth had two sons & three daughters. We don't have birthdates for any of those five children, but we do have estimated birthdates for two grandchildren of the couple:
1) Edwin Sandys, eldest son of their daughter Hester Clifton Sandys, was born about 1564, per his HOP bio.
2) Gervase Clifton, Lord Clifton, eldest son of their son Sir John Clifton of Barrington Court (died 1593), was born about 1570, per his HOP bio.
These dates suggest that Elizabeth, wife of William Clifton, was born by the year 1525. This would necessarily make her, if she were legitimate, the daughter of Thomas Blount by his first wife Katherine Stanford. But we need to establish firmer dates for that couple to make sure that placement for Elizabeth would be feasible.
Can it be determined from William Clifton's will whether his wife predeceased, or survived, him?
There does remain the issue of why his wife Elizabeth, if she was a Blount of Sodington, was left off of their pedigree.
I notice there is an Elizabeth Blount of Sodington in the pedigree, one generation further back, daughter of Peter Blount & Anne Cornewall, who is said to have married "Thom. Newport of Wich in com. Worster". I haven't had any luck further identifying him. I wonder if maybe this Elizabeth Blount took William Clifton of Barrington Court as a second husband?
Thanks & Cheers, ------Brad
John Higgins
Sep 6, 2012, 1:02:22 PM9/6/12
to
On Sep 6, 9:42 am, Brad Verity <royaldesc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 5, 2012 10:10:59 PM UTC-7, John Higgins wrote:
> > I've been occupied with out-of-town visitors and haven't had time to
>
> > thoroughly peruse this interesting post, but I note from my files that
>
> > back in Sept. 2004 Robert O'Connor and Richard Borthwick seemed to
>
> > have established that William Clifton of Barrington was NOT the son of
>
> > Sir Gervase Clifton, but was instead son of John Clifton of Walsingham
>
> > Parva, Norfolk - who MAY (or may not) have been related to Sir Gervase
>
> > Clifton. See this post:
>
> >http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2004-09/10...
> On Wednesday, September 5, 2012 10:10:59 PM UTC-7, John Higgins wrote:
> > I've been occupied with out-of-town visitors and haven't had time to
>
> > thoroughly peruse this interesting post, but I note from my files that
>
> > back in Sept. 2004 Robert O'Connor and Richard Borthwick seemed to
>
> > have established that William Clifton of Barrington was NOT the son of
>
> > Sir Gervase Clifton, but was instead son of John Clifton of Walsingham
>
> > Parva, Norfolk - who MAY (or may not) have been related to Sir Gervase
>
> > Clifton. See this post:
>
>
> > I haven't had a chance to confirm whether Robert's conclusion still
>
> > stands, but it may help to resolve the chronological difficulties in
>
> > the connection that you mention above.
>
> Thanks for the link John. Robert O'Connor has done excellent work with this line.
>
> Yes, that does resolve the chronological difficulty around William Clifton of Barrington Court (d. 1564).
>
> We know William Clifton & his wife Elizabeth had two sons & three daughters. We don't have birthdates for any of those five children, but we do have estimated birthdates for two grandchildren of the couple:
>
> 1) Edwin Sandys, eldest son of their daughter Hester Clifton Sandys, was born about 1564, per his HOP bio.
>
> 2) Gervase Clifton, Lord Clifton, eldest son of their son Sir John Clifton of Barrington Court (died 1593), was born about 1570, per his HOP bio.
>
> These dates suggest that Elizabeth, wife of William Clifton, was born by the year 1525. This would necessarily make her, if she were legitimate, the daughter of Thomas Blount by his first wife Katherine Stanford. But we need to establish firmer dates for that couple to make sure that placement for Elizabeth would be feasible.
>
> Can it be determined from William Clifton's will whether his wife predeceased, or survived, him?
>
> There does remain the issue of why his wife Elizabeth, if she was a Blount of Sodington, was left off of their pedigree.
>
> I notice there is an Elizabeth Blount of Sodington in the pedigree, one generation further back, daughter of Peter Blount & Anne Cornewall, who is said to have married "Thom. Newport of Wich in com. Worster". I haven't had any luck further identifying him. I wonder if maybe this Elizabeth Blount took William Clifton of Barrington Court as a second husband?
>
> Thanks & Cheers, ------Brad
I have a note in my files that Elizabeth Blount, wife of William
> > I haven't had a chance to confirm whether Robert's conclusion still
>
> > stands, but it may help to resolve the chronological difficulties in
>
> > the connection that you mention above.
>
> Thanks for the link John. Robert O'Connor has done excellent work with this line.
>
> Yes, that does resolve the chronological difficulty around William Clifton of Barrington Court (d. 1564).
>
> We know William Clifton & his wife Elizabeth had two sons & three daughters. We don't have birthdates for any of those five children, but we do have estimated birthdates for two grandchildren of the couple:
>
> 1) Edwin Sandys, eldest son of their daughter Hester Clifton Sandys, was born about 1564, per his HOP bio.
>
> 2) Gervase Clifton, Lord Clifton, eldest son of their son Sir John Clifton of Barrington Court (died 1593), was born about 1570, per his HOP bio.
>
> These dates suggest that Elizabeth, wife of William Clifton, was born by the year 1525. This would necessarily make her, if she were legitimate, the daughter of Thomas Blount by his first wife Katherine Stanford. But we need to establish firmer dates for that couple to make sure that placement for Elizabeth would be feasible.
>
> Can it be determined from William Clifton's will whether his wife predeceased, or survived, him?
>
> There does remain the issue of why his wife Elizabeth, if she was a Blount of Sodington, was left off of their pedigree.
>
> I notice there is an Elizabeth Blount of Sodington in the pedigree, one generation further back, daughter of Peter Blount & Anne Cornewall, who is said to have married "Thom. Newport of Wich in com. Worster". I haven't had any luck further identifying him. I wonder if maybe this Elizabeth Blount took William Clifton of Barrington Court as a second husband?
>
> Thanks & Cheers, ------Brad
Clifton, d. 27 July 1582 aged 62. I'll to check further to determine
the source of this, but I suspect it came from off-group
correspondence - possibly indirectly from Robert O'Connor, and from
the format perhaps based on an IPM for Elizabeth Blount. At any rate,
this gives a closer date for her birth.
Brad Verity
Sep 6, 2012, 1:21:53 PM9/6/12
to
On Sep 6, 10:02 am, John Higgins <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I have a note in my files that Elizabeth Blount, wife of William
> Clifton, d. 27 July 1582 aged 62. I'll to check further to determine
> the source of this, but I suspect it came from off-group
> correspondence - possibly indirectly from Robert O'Connor, and from
> the format perhaps based on an IPM for Elizabeth Blount. At any rate,
> this gives a closer date for her birth.
Thanks, John! That date led to the wills of both William Clifton &
> I have a note in my files that Elizabeth Blount, wife of William
> Clifton, d. 27 July 1582 aged 62. I'll to check further to determine
> the source of this, but I suspect it came from off-group
> correspondence - possibly indirectly from Robert O'Connor, and from
> the format perhaps based on an IPM for Elizabeth Blount. At any rate,
> this gives a closer date for her birth.
Elizabeth, here:
http://books.google.ca/books?id=C0tFAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA14&lpg=PA14&dq=Elizabeth+Clifton+of+Barrington+died+1582&source=bl&ots=DsxthA8m6n&sig=pqzSCfrMmYOfkmgeXeAq2n4RDNk&hl=en#v=onepage&q=Elizabeth%20Clifton%20of%20Barrington%20died%201582&f=false
Unfortunately, nothing in either will that links Elizabeth to the
Blounts of Sodington Hall, but it's great to have dates for her & very
helpful to know she was born about 1520.
Cheers, ------Brad
Brad Verity
Sep 6, 2012, 1:26:15 PM9/6/12
to
On Sep 6, 10:21 am, Brad Verity <royaldesc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Unfortunately, nothing in either will that links Elizabeth to the
> Blounts of Sodington Hall,
Hang on - Elizabeth Clifton leaves her wedding ring to "Lady Talboys"
> Unfortunately, nothing in either will that links Elizabeth to the
> Blounts of Sodington Hall,
in her will. Weren't the Lords Tailboys descended from Elizabeth
Blount, Henry VIII's mistress, in the Tudor era?
Cheers, -----Brad
John Higgins
Sep 6, 2012, 3:06:49 PM9/6/12
to
Gilbert, 1st Lord Tailboys. Their granddaughter Elizabeth Tailboys
was the last to hold the title of Tailboys. At her death (in or
before 1563) the title became extinct. Her heirs were were her four
Tailboys aunts, all of whom had married. So it's unclear who would be
referred to as "Lady Tailboys" in 1582 (or actually slightly earlier,
when the will was made).
The Blounts of Sodington were certainly related to those of Kinlet in
some degree, but I don't know if the relationship was close enough to
explain the reference to lady Tailboys, whoever she was.
While the absence of Elizabeth Blount of Sodington from the visitation
pedigrees is a concern, it's not necessarily fatal to the connection
in question, as we've seen many cases where daughters are not
mentioned in such pedigrees for various reasons. But it's worth
keeping in mind....
Brad Verity
Sep 6, 2012, 4:59:43 PM9/6/12
to
On Sep 6, 12:06 pm, John Higgins <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> While the absence of Elizabeth Blount of Sodington from the visitation
> pedigrees is a concern, it's not necessarily fatal to the connection
> in question, as we've seen many cases where daughters are not
> mentioned in such pedigrees for various reasons. But it's worth
> keeping in mind....
Yes. I'm keeping the line in my database, and I see Leo also has
> While the absence of Elizabeth Blount of Sodington from the visitation
> pedigrees is a concern, it's not necessarily fatal to the connection
> in question, as we've seen many cases where daughters are not
> mentioned in such pedigrees for various reasons. But it's worth
> keeping in mind....
included it in his Genealogics. Douglas has to date ignored it in his
Plantagenet Ancestry series, even though it's been on the newsgroup
for the past 8 years, and is as valid, if not more so, than several
other lines in those books. It also opens up an Edward I descent for
the Temples of New England, who made it over there in the early 1700s
(though the Irish generations in that line need further research):
http://archive.org/stream/someaccountoftem00inprim#page/12/mode/2up
Cheers, -----Brad
Message has been deleted
Brad Verity
Sep 7, 2012, 4:18:19 PM9/7/12
to
On Sep 7, 10:28 am, ravinmaven2...@yahoo.com wrote:
> It is frequently stated that Robert Temple of New England was of the line of Dr. Thomas Temple of Bourton-on-the-Water, Gloucestershire (he was a minister and Doctor of Common or civil Laws). Henry B. Hoff, “The Temple Family of Stowe,” The Genealogist 2 (1981), questions this placement and expresses doubt about the existence of the family of Thomas of Bourton (I believe ... [going from memory here]).
>
> The will of Sir Richard Temple, 3rd Bart., from 1683, shows there were a number of descendants of Thomas Temple of Bourton living that year:
>
> "... and in default to Thomas Temple, gen. (eldest Sonne of Thomas Temple, late of Bourton on the Water, Gloucester, D.D. [sic; DCL], dec.); and in default to Thomas Temple (Sonne of the said Thomas Temple, and grandson of the said Dr Temple dec.); and in default to Richard Temple (2d Sonne of Thomas Temple, Sonne of Dr Thomas, and another grandsonne of said Dr Thomas Temple dec.); and in default to John Temple Gen. (another sonne of Dr Thomas Temple, dec.); and in default to John Temple (1st and eldest Sonne of said John Temple and Grandsonne of Dr Thomas Temple dec.) and his heirs male ..."
Interesting - thank you for the summation of where the research stands
on Robert Temple of New England's origins, and for the several links.
Cheers, -------Brad
> It is frequently stated that Robert Temple of New England was of the line of Dr. Thomas Temple of Bourton-on-the-Water, Gloucestershire (he was a minister and Doctor of Common or civil Laws). Henry B. Hoff, “The Temple Family of Stowe,” The Genealogist 2 (1981), questions this placement and expresses doubt about the existence of the family of Thomas of Bourton (I believe ... [going from memory here]).
>
> The will of Sir Richard Temple, 3rd Bart., from 1683, shows there were a number of descendants of Thomas Temple of Bourton living that year:
>
> "... and in default to Thomas Temple, gen. (eldest Sonne of Thomas Temple, late of Bourton on the Water, Gloucester, D.D. [sic; DCL], dec.); and in default to Thomas Temple (Sonne of the said Thomas Temple, and grandson of the said Dr Temple dec.); and in default to Richard Temple (2d Sonne of Thomas Temple, Sonne of Dr Thomas, and another grandsonne of said Dr Thomas Temple dec.); and in default to John Temple Gen. (another sonne of Dr Thomas Temple, dec.); and in default to John Temple (1st and eldest Sonne of said John Temple and Grandsonne of Dr Thomas Temple dec.) and his heirs male ..."
Interesting - thank you for the summation of where the research stands
on Robert Temple of New England's origins, and for the several links.
Cheers, -------Brad
al...@intrac.co.nz
Sep 13, 2017, 5:54:46 PM9/13/17
to
Hi Brad el al,
Being one of the descendants of Robert Temple of Ireland/New England fame my ggggg-grandfather)I am most interested in the knowledge you guys have and am keen to resolve the three or so generations between Sir Thomas Temple, 1st Bart, and Robert. I see this interaction is 5 years or so old but do you know if anyone has done the Irish research that maybe will link Thomas Temple, dd (Bourton-on-the-Water, etc.) to Robert T., born 1694 in Ireland?
What I cannot get is how a 23 year old can be in business of taking ultimately 5 ships worth of emigrants from Ireland to America without some serious family money involved, which means there must be records of their 'doings' somewhere. I am going in circles with this but just have not the knowledge to progress it. Any info you may be able to share would be most appreciated.
Many thanks, Alan Temple, Glenorchy, New Zealand
Any
Being one of the descendants of Robert Temple of Ireland/New England fame my ggggg-grandfather)I am most interested in the knowledge you guys have and am keen to resolve the three or so generations between Sir Thomas Temple, 1st Bart, and Robert. I see this interaction is 5 years or so old but do you know if anyone has done the Irish research that maybe will link Thomas Temple, dd (Bourton-on-the-Water, etc.) to Robert T., born 1694 in Ireland?
What I cannot get is how a 23 year old can be in business of taking ultimately 5 ships worth of emigrants from Ireland to America without some serious family money involved, which means there must be records of their 'doings' somewhere. I am going in circles with this but just have not the knowledge to progress it. Any info you may be able to share would be most appreciated.
Many thanks, Alan Temple, Glenorchy, New Zealand
Any
Brad Verity
Sep 14, 2017, 6:57:37 PM9/14/17
to
On Wednesday, September 13, 2017 at 2:54:46 PM UTC-7, al...@intrac.co.nz wrote:
> Hi Brad el al,
> Being one of the descendants of Robert Temple of Ireland/New England fame my ggggg-grandfather)I am most interested in the knowledge you guys have and am keen to resolve the three or so generations between Sir Thomas Temple, 1st Bart, and Robert. I see this interaction is 5 years or so old but do you know if anyone has done the Irish research that maybe will link Thomas Temple, dd (Bourton-on-the-Water, etc.) to Robert T., born 1694 in Ireland?
> What I cannot get is how a 23 year old can be in business of taking ultimately 5 ships worth of emigrants from Ireland to America without some serious family money involved, which means there must be records of their 'doings' somewhere. I am going in circles with this but just have not the knowledge to progress it. Any info you may be able to share would be most appreciated.
> Many thanks, Alan Temple, Glenorchy, New Zealand
Nice to meet you Alan. Sorry to report that I have no knowledge that any further research into the origins of Robert Temple of New England has occurred in the past five years.
> Hi Brad el al,
> Being one of the descendants of Robert Temple of Ireland/New England fame my ggggg-grandfather)I am most interested in the knowledge you guys have and am keen to resolve the three or so generations between Sir Thomas Temple, 1st Bart, and Robert. I see this interaction is 5 years or so old but do you know if anyone has done the Irish research that maybe will link Thomas Temple, dd (Bourton-on-the-Water, etc.) to Robert T., born 1694 in Ireland?
> What I cannot get is how a 23 year old can be in business of taking ultimately 5 ships worth of emigrants from Ireland to America without some serious family money involved, which means there must be records of their 'doings' somewhere. I am going in circles with this but just have not the knowledge to progress it. Any info you may be able to share would be most appreciated.
> Many thanks, Alan Temple, Glenorchy, New Zealand
Hopefully someone else will be able to help you out!
Cheers, ---Brad
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