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Re: Count Giselbert of count Friedrich, that is the question!
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Stewart Baldwin via
Aug 5, 2015, 6:02:35 PM8/5/15
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Hans Vogels wrote:
>
>One could add that the positioning of Otgive as daughter of count Giselbert opens a new research direction.
>
>As far as is possibly known this name Otgive (Otgiva/Odgiva) can not be found in the ancestry of the wife of count Friedrich. The name of Friedrich's now eldest daughter Imiza (Irmintrud) points to a naming of her maternal grandmother Ermentrude/Imiza wife of Heribert, count in Kinziggau. A search for an explanation of the name Otgive in the family of Friedrich's inlaws prooved futile.
>
>Now that we assign Otgive as the eldest daughter of count Giselbert we have much more opportunity for result. Not that it yet has given a concrete direction, but the name Otgive (Otgiva/Odgiva) sounds like an echo from the past.
>
>King Eadweard 'the Elder' had a daughter Ælfgifu or Ealdgyth (Adiva) that was sent in 929 (or earlier) with her sister Eadgyth to king Heinrich I of Germany with the purpose that one of them should marry his son Otto. In 930 Otto married one of them. The other (Adiva) is said to have married a prince near the Alps. http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/prov/edwar001.htm
>
>Perhaps Otgive of Wallerfangen ("Luxemburg") was through her unknown mother a descendant of the lost daughter of king Eadweard the Elder? Has anyone seen the name Ælfgifu/Ealdgyth/ Adiva / Otgive/Otgiva/Odgiva come by in the period 930-990? If Otgive (born ca.990) was a descendant, there must have been a couple (say 3) of generations in between with the likelyhood of one or more carrying that name.
On 25 September 2006, I posted a message to this group suggesting the possibility (still just a conjecture) that if Giselbert was Otgive's father, then her mother might have been Mathilde, daughter of Conrad, king of Burgundy. See the following message in the archives for details:
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2006-09/1159203735
Mathilde was a daughter of Conrad of Burgundy by his wife Mathilde, daughter of Louis IV, king of France, whose mother was Eadgifu of Wessex, daughter of Edward the Elder. "Otgive" looks very much like a continental variation of Eadgifu.
The advantage of this conjecture is that it fits well with a number of pieces of circumstantial evidence (mentioned in the above posting).
The obvious disadvantage is that there is no clear direct evidence supporting the suggested relationship.
Stewart Baldwin
>
>One could add that the positioning of Otgive as daughter of count Giselbert opens a new research direction.
>
>As far as is possibly known this name Otgive (Otgiva/Odgiva) can not be found in the ancestry of the wife of count Friedrich. The name of Friedrich's now eldest daughter Imiza (Irmintrud) points to a naming of her maternal grandmother Ermentrude/Imiza wife of Heribert, count in Kinziggau. A search for an explanation of the name Otgive in the family of Friedrich's inlaws prooved futile.
>
>Now that we assign Otgive as the eldest daughter of count Giselbert we have much more opportunity for result. Not that it yet has given a concrete direction, but the name Otgive (Otgiva/Odgiva) sounds like an echo from the past.
>
>King Eadweard 'the Elder' had a daughter Ælfgifu or Ealdgyth (Adiva) that was sent in 929 (or earlier) with her sister Eadgyth to king Heinrich I of Germany with the purpose that one of them should marry his son Otto. In 930 Otto married one of them. The other (Adiva) is said to have married a prince near the Alps. http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/prov/edwar001.htm
>
>Perhaps Otgive of Wallerfangen ("Luxemburg") was through her unknown mother a descendant of the lost daughter of king Eadweard the Elder? Has anyone seen the name Ælfgifu/Ealdgyth/ Adiva / Otgive/Otgiva/Odgiva come by in the period 930-990? If Otgive (born ca.990) was a descendant, there must have been a couple (say 3) of generations in between with the likelyhood of one or more carrying that name.
On 25 September 2006, I posted a message to this group suggesting the possibility (still just a conjecture) that if Giselbert was Otgive's father, then her mother might have been Mathilde, daughter of Conrad, king of Burgundy. See the following message in the archives for details:
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2006-09/1159203735
Mathilde was a daughter of Conrad of Burgundy by his wife Mathilde, daughter of Louis IV, king of France, whose mother was Eadgifu of Wessex, daughter of Edward the Elder. "Otgive" looks very much like a continental variation of Eadgifu.
The advantage of this conjecture is that it fits well with a number of pieces of circumstantial evidence (mentioned in the above posting).
The obvious disadvantage is that there is no clear direct evidence supporting the suggested relationship.
Stewart Baldwin
Peter Stewart via
Aug 5, 2015, 6:52:05 PM8/5/15
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
On 6/08/2015 8:02 AM, Stewart Baldwin via wrote:
> On 25 September 2006, I posted a message to this group suggesting the possibility (still just a conjecture) that if Giselbert was Otgive's father, then her mother might have been Mathilde, daughter of Conrad, king of Burgundy. See the following message in the archives for details:
> http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2006-09/1159203735
>
> Mathilde was a daughter of Conrad of Burgundy by his wife Mathilde, daughter of Louis IV, king of France, whose mother was Eadgifu of Wessex, daughter of Edward the Elder. "Otgive" looks very much like a continental variation of Eadgifu.
>
>
several sources, the former by Witger in his genealogy (MGH Scriptores
volume ix, p 303), the second in a brief history of the Frankish kings
(Paris, BnF, ms latin 16819 fol 101v).
Peter Stewart
Hans Vogels
Oct 27, 2018, 7:14:44 AM10/27/18
to
I tried to read again the following reference by Stewart Baldwin to a posting in 2006 on Rootsweb.
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2006-09/1159203735
However, it now results in a 404 error.
Is it still possible to read the posting?
And if so, what's the easiest way to there?
Hans Vogels
Op donderdag 6 augustus 2015 00:02:35 UTC+2 schreef Stewart Baldwin via:
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2006-09/1159203735
However, it now results in a 404 error.
Is it still possible to read the posting?
And if so, what's the easiest way to there?
Hans Vogels
Op donderdag 6 augustus 2015 00:02:35 UTC+2 schreef Stewart Baldwin via:
> Hans Vogels wrote:
> >
> >One could add that the positioning of Otgive as daughter of count Giselbert opens a new research direction.
> >
> >As far as is possibly known this name Otgive (Otgiva/Odgiva) can not be found in the ancestry of the wife of count Friedrich. The name of Friedrich's now eldest daughter Imiza (Irmintrud) points to a naming of her maternal grandmother Ermentrude/Imiza wife of Heribert, count in Kinziggau. A search for an explanation of the name Otgive in the family of Friedrich's inlaws prooved futile.
> >
> >Now that we assign Otgive as the eldest daughter of count Giselbert we have much more opportunity for result. Not that it yet has given a concrete direction, but the name Otgive (Otgiva/Odgiva) sounds like an echo from the past.
> >
> >King Eadweard 'the Elder' had a daughter Ælfgifu or Ealdgyth (Adiva) that was sent in 929 (or earlier) with her sister Eadgyth to king Heinrich I of Germany with the purpose that one of them should marry his son Otto. In 930 Otto married one of them. The other (Adiva) is said to have married a prince near the Alps. http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/prov/edwar001.htm
> >
> >Perhaps Otgive of Wallerfangen ("Luxemburg") was through her unknown mother a descendant of the lost daughter of king Eadweard the Elder? Has anyone seen the name Ælfgifu/Ealdgyth/ Adiva / Otgive/Otgiva/Odgiva come by in the period 930-990? If Otgive (born ca.990) was a descendant, there must have been a couple (say 3) of generations in between with the likelyhood of one or more carrying that name.
>
> On 25 September 2006, I posted a message to this group suggesting the possibility (still just a conjecture) that if Giselbert was Otgive's father, then her mother might have been Mathilde, daughter of Conrad, king of Burgundy. See the following message in the archives for details:
>
>
> >
> >One could add that the positioning of Otgive as daughter of count Giselbert opens a new research direction.
> >
> >As far as is possibly known this name Otgive (Otgiva/Odgiva) can not be found in the ancestry of the wife of count Friedrich. The name of Friedrich's now eldest daughter Imiza (Irmintrud) points to a naming of her maternal grandmother Ermentrude/Imiza wife of Heribert, count in Kinziggau. A search for an explanation of the name Otgive in the family of Friedrich's inlaws prooved futile.
> >
> >Now that we assign Otgive as the eldest daughter of count Giselbert we have much more opportunity for result. Not that it yet has given a concrete direction, but the name Otgive (Otgiva/Odgiva) sounds like an echo from the past.
> >
> >King Eadweard 'the Elder' had a daughter Ælfgifu or Ealdgyth (Adiva) that was sent in 929 (or earlier) with her sister Eadgyth to king Heinrich I of Germany with the purpose that one of them should marry his son Otto. In 930 Otto married one of them. The other (Adiva) is said to have married a prince near the Alps. http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/prov/edwar001.htm
> >
> >Perhaps Otgive of Wallerfangen ("Luxemburg") was through her unknown mother a descendant of the lost daughter of king Eadweard the Elder? Has anyone seen the name Ælfgifu/Ealdgyth/ Adiva / Otgive/Otgiva/Odgiva come by in the period 930-990? If Otgive (born ca.990) was a descendant, there must have been a couple (say 3) of generations in between with the likelyhood of one or more carrying that name.
>
> On 25 September 2006, I posted a message to this group suggesting the possibility (still just a conjecture) that if Giselbert was Otgive's father, then her mother might have been Mathilde, daughter of Conrad, king of Burgundy. See the following message in the archives for details:
>
>
taf
Oct 27, 2018, 9:27:25 AM10/27/18
to
On Saturday, October 27, 2018 at 4:14:44 AM UTC-7, Hans Vogels wrote:
> I tried to read again the following reference by Stewart Baldwin to a posting in 2006 on Rootsweb.
>
> http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2006-09/1159203735
>
> However, it now results in a 404 error.
>
> Is it still possible to read the posting?
> And if so, what's the easiest way to there?
>
The bad news us that when Rootsweb reconfigured their computers at the beginning of the year, they killed the mailing list archives. At the time they promised to slowly rebuild them, but even when they do, it will result in a different URL.
> I tried to read again the following reference by Stewart Baldwin to a posting in 2006 on Rootsweb.
>
> http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2006-09/1159203735
>
> However, it now results in a 404 error.
>
> Is it still possible to read the posting?
> And if so, what's the easiest way to there?
>
The good news: the post is available on the Google Groups archive. Just go to soc.gen.med in Google Groups and search using the terms 'Giselbert Conrad Burgundy'. The first thread you see will be this one, the second thread, entitled 'Otgiva of Luxemburg' begins with the post in question.
taf
Hans Vogels
Oct 28, 2018, 10:50:29 AM10/28/18
to
Op zaterdag 27 oktober 2018 15:27:25 UTC+2 schreef taf:
Thanks Taf,
With regards,
Hans vogels
With regards,
Hans vogels
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