The first husband of Rohese de Verdun?
Chris Phillips
question of Rohese de Verdun's missing marriage, as suggested by her
provision for the souls of her husbands in her charter for the abbey of la
Grace Dieu.
The evidence below suggests strongly that, before her marriage to Theobald
Butler some time after 4 September 1225, she had been married to William
Perceval de Somery, the son of Ralph de Somery (d.c.1210), and had borne him
a son Nicholas [Complete Peerage vol.12, part 1, pp.111-112].
On 20 June 1222 the king notified Nicholas de Verdun that he had granted
custody of the land and heir of William de Sumeri, with the marriage of the
same heir, to R[anulph], Earl of Chester and Lincoln, and ordered Nicholas
to deliver the "filiam" and heir, whom he had in his custody, to the earl
without delay. The sheriffs of Staffordshire and Warwickshire were also
ordered to deliver seisin of William's lands to the earl [Rot. Lit. Claus. i
500b; it seems that "filiam" (daughter) here must be an error for "filium"
(son), either in the original or the printed transcript].
On 27 January 1222/3 the king ordered Nicholas de Verdun and Rohese, his
daughter, to deliver without delay the "filium" and heir of William Perceval
of Sumery to R[anulph], Earl of Chester and Lincoln, to whom he had granted
the heir's custody and marriage [Rot. Lit. Claus. i 531].
According to Complete Peerage, vol.12, part 1, pp.112, William's son and
heir was Nicholas de Somery, who died a minor before 4 July 1229, and was
succeeded by his uncle (William's brother) Roger de Somery.
This suggests that William's wife (unknown according to the Complete
Peerage) was Rohese - hence her inclusion in the second order to deliver the
heir - and that she was the mother of his heir Nicholas - who would have
been named after her father Nicholas de Verdun. (The name Nicholas does not
seem to occur in William's own ancestry, as given by the Complete Peerage.)
If this is correct, Rohese did have a son living when she married Theobald B
utler. But this son, together with any other children she may have had by
her marriage to William, was dead by 1229.
Chris Phillips
The...@aol.com
Good afternoon, Chris,
Your discovery of a possible de Somery-de Verdun connection is extremely
interesting, and appears to be a very nice fit indeed.
The introduction of the name Nicholas into the de Somery family does
appear to occur at this point; although we are somewhat short of earlier
generations for the de Somery and le Marischal families (see table below),
such that I do not see in CP an earlier source for the name Roger. It would
appear the name of William de Somery was thanks to his well-known uncle, the
Marshal of England (d. 1219).
A connection for Rohese to de Somery, esp. re: holding certain lands of
that family in dower, would finalize things very nicely; as to that search, I
am reminded of the wisdom of Mick Jagger. Sometimes, we do (however) get
what we need.
John de Somery = Hawise Paynel John le = Sibyl de
of Little Crawley I heiress of Marischal I Salisbury
co. Bucks. I bro. Gervase [fitz I [2nd wife]
I Gilbert] I
I _________________I______
I I I
Sir Ralph = Margaret William Marshal
de Somery I le Marischal Earl of Pembroke
of Dudley, co. Worcs I & Marshal of
& Little Crawley I England
d. bef 1212 I d. 14 May 1219
_____________________I__________________
I I I I
Joan de Ralph William Roger de Somery
Somery de Somery de Somery heir of nephew
=Thomas d.bef 1220 d.bef 20 Jun 1222 Nicholas;
de = Ida ? = Rohese de of Dudley & c.
Berkeley Longespee I Verdun ? d. 26 Aug 1273
[dsp] I = 1) Nicole d'Aubigny
________I I =2) Amabil de
I _____________I__ I Chaucombe
I I I I I_________
Nicholas de Somery Margaret Joan I___ I
d. bef 4 Jul 1229 =1) Ralph = John le I I
I Basset Strange Ralph Roger de
________I =2) Ralph I [dvp] Somery
I I Cromwell I d.bef 12
I I I Oct 1291
I I I
V V V
from whom, from whom, from whom,
Lords Bassett Lord Cromwell Lords Strange
(of Drayton), (1375) (of Knockin)
Earls of Stafford
& c.
Best regards,
John *
* John P. Ravilious
Douglas Richardson
Nice work. Just one question: Is there any indication when William
Perceval de Somery was born? If so, that might helps us date Rohese
de Verdun's birth.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
cgp...@cgp100.dabsol.co.uk (Chris Phillips) wrote in message news:<004901c18595$9cfc8260$f41886d9@oemcomputer>...
Paul C. Reed
> On 27 January 1222/3 the king ordered Nicholas de Verdun and Rohese, his
> daughter, to deliver without delay the "filium" and heir of William Perceval
> of Sumery to R[anulph], Earl of Chester and Lincoln, to whom he had granted
> the heir's custody and marriage [Rot. Lit. Claus. i 531].
Chris,
I don't think Rohese de Verdun would have been named in the order unless
she were mother of the heir Nicholas de Somery. The Somery family also
held lands in Lincolnshire. I think you have found the first marriage of
Rohese de Verdun.
It is clear that William Perceval de Somery [this would be a double-given
name] and Rohese had one child, or at least any other children must have
predeceased the heir. Henry III was heavily burdened to grant wards,
marriages and lands to favorites, and frequently split the grants up to spread
them as far as possible towards his commitments and requests.
Sanders, English Baronies, 113, also cites Pipe Roll 12 John, 103 and
Close Rolls, 1204-24, 500.
[I haven't had a chance to check all the sources yet.]
Good work!
Paul
Paul C. Reed
Henry III (after attaining majority), grants of wards and marriages beat
the writ for the inquisition into the lands of the deceased. The lands and
marriages of important wards were closely anticipated. This would
indicate that William Perceval de Somery did not die long before
27 Jan. 1222/3.
If we presume that William and Rohese had one child and heir, Nicholas
de Somery, one might also presume that Nicholas was born about 1222,
and that Rohese was old enough to conceive--but just.
IF Rohese had reached the age or fertility about 1222 [she could have
been married several years before, but this would be the earliest she
would conceive--or if another child was born, say 1220], then we
would have her aged 14-17 in 1220-1222. That would equate to a
birth of maybe about 1205, or as late as 1209, if you really stretch
things.
The Somery inheritance was perhaps even more important than
the Verdun estate.
Given the import of the match, it would not be expected that Rohese
would be born much earlier than 1205. If she did not have a brother
named Betram [why would Nicholas de Verdun bother granting his
heir a rent of 20 shillings?], then she would be the only known
surviving child of Clement le Butiller. The Verdun family did
have holdings in the Avranchin [which belonged to the Earl of
Chester], but this was lost when John lost Normandy.
Paul
Chris Phillips
> It is clear that William Perceval de Somery [this would be a double-given
> name] and Rohese had one child, or at least any other children must have
> predeceased the heir. Henry III was heavily burdened to grant wards,
> marriages and lands to favorites, and frequently split the grants up to
spread
> them as far as possible towards his commitments and requests.
>
> Sanders, English Baronies, 113, also cites Pipe Roll 12 John, 103 and
> Close Rolls, 1204-24, 500.
>
> [I haven't had a chance to check all the sources yet.]
There's a little discussion of the double name on Complete Peerage vol.11,
part 1, p.109, which says he was known as William de Somery, Percevall de
Duddelegh or de Somery, and William Percevall de Somery.
The Close Rolls, 1204-24, 500 would be the 1222 reference from Rot. Lit.
Claus. (that period was covered by the big Record Commission volumes with
Latin titles). I didn't see the Pipe Roll yesterday, though.
Chris Phillips
Chris Phillips
<<
Just one question: Is there any indication when William
Perceval de Somery was born? If so, that might helps us date Rohese
de Verdun's birth.
>>
[Again, this message doesn't seem to have made it to the email digests]
I can't see any information in Complete Peerage that would enable William's birth to be dated very closely. His elder brother Ralph's custody was granted to the Earl of Salisbury in 1212. Ralph's wife, Ida, the daughter of that earl, was the daughter of Ela, who was 8 years old in 1198. William himself was granted the scutage of Biham, 19 Feb 1220/1, and was party to a suit of land in Staffs in 1222.
This suggests William would have been born in the late 1190s (a year or two before Theobald Butler), but course Rohese could have been somewhat younger.
Chris Phillips
Douglas Richardson
>
> Given the import of the match, it would not be expected that Rohese
> would be born much earlier than 1205. If she did not have a brother
> named Betram [why would Nicholas de Verdun bother granting his
> heir a rent of 20 shillings?], then she would be the only known
> surviving child of Clement le Butiller.
>
Um, it's Bertram, not Betram. And, Clemence (female form), not
Clement (male form). And, Clemence's surname is usually found in
modern sources as le Boteler, not le Butiller. But, we know who you
mean.
As for Rohese de Verdun being the only known surviving child of
Clemence de Verdun, actually at the present time, she's the only
proven child. There's a difference between the two statements. We're
still entertaining evidence that Joan, wife of Llywelyn ap Iorwerth,
was Clemence le Boteler's illegitimate daughter by King John. The
matter of Clemence being Joan's mother needs further investigation.
When Joan is ruled out as Clemence's child, then you can say Rohese de
Verdun is Clemence le Boteler's only known surviving child, but, not
before. Among other things, the matter of foreign hostages still
needs to be researched. Also, it probably would be helpful if we
determined if Philip le Boteler was English or French.
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> >"Paul C. Reed" <rp...@uswest.net> wrote in message >news:<3C1C3E3E...@uswest.net>...
> >
> > Given the import of the match, it would not be expected that Rohese
> > would be born much earlier than 1205. If she did not have a brother
> > named Betram [why would Nicholas de Verdun bother granting his
> > heir a rent of 20 shillings?], then she would be the only known
> > surviving child of Clement le Butiller.
>
> Clement (male form). And, Clemence's surname is usually found in
> modern sources as le Boteler, not le Butiller. But, we know who you
> mean.
Yes, we do.
taf
KHF...@aol.com
In a message dated 12/19/01 5:30:54 PM, royala...@msn.com writes:
<< Among other things, the matter of foreign hostages still
needs to be researched. Also, it probably would be helpful if we
determined if Philip le Boteler was English or French. >>
I thought it was determined that this was not a hostage situation at all, but
one of sending the girl elsewhere for a proper education and upbringing.
Also, I do not understand why one would think that Philip was English, as 1)
the name is French, 2) there seems to be no record of him in England at the
time and, 3) John spent most of his time in France as a youth.
- Ken
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> Also, I do not understand why one would think that Philip was English, as 1)
> the name is French,
As were the names of most of the Norman landholders in England.
> 2) there seems to be no record of him in England at the
> time and,
There seems to be no record of him in France at the time.
> 3) John spent most of his time in France as a youth.
John and Philip are not known to be associated at all, so this is
irrelevant.
All we know about Philip is that his daughter Clemence married
Norman de Verdun. Simply put, we don't know.
taf