Who was John Harrington of Doncaster ?
Jwc...@aol.com
Accordis to
David Faris in his original ad 2nd editions of Plantagenet Ancestry of
Seventeenth Century Colonists p 270 (1st edition), Roger Copley, Esq. of Roughey,
Sussex died between 1482 when listed as a member of the Company of Mercers and 21
December 1490 when his elder brother William Copley, Gentleman of Doncaster,
York left a bequest for masses to be said for the souls of his brothers Oliver,
Roger, and Thomas. Roger`s father Sir Richard Copley, kt. of Batley, West
Riding, York was married 1st to Margaret Denton who according to Genelogics. Org
was the mother in abt 1421 of Lionel Copley of Batley who is not referred to
in William`s will. Faris claimed that Elizabeth Harrington, daughter of John
Harrington of Doncester, West Riding, York was Roger`s mother based on William
Copley of Doncaster`s will. So who was He ? if He had been the 4th Lord
Harrington then William Copley rather than William Harrington should have been 5th
Lord Harrington as the title devolved at the latter`s death to William, 2nd
Lord Bonville, the husband of his heiress, another Elizabeth Harrington.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
Leo van de Pas
You quite rightly query who was/were the wives of Sir Richard Copley, of
Batley.
My information for this couple comes from Gerald Paget's monumental work on
the ancestors of Prince Charles.
This work is monumental but also it is known to contain flaws and has no
sources mentioned.
Q115489 Sir Richard Copley, of Batley...................................also
number Q118013
Q115490 Margaret, daughter of Sir Richard Denton.................also number
Q118014
parents of
P 59007 Sir Roger Copley, of Roughway, Sussex, born ca.1430, no date of
death
before 1464 he married Jane or Anne) Hoo
----------------
In Faris first edition page 278 Roger Copley is clearly marked as the son of
Sir Richard Copley and Elizabeth, daughter of John Harington.
I think there is a minor observation to be made on this page by Faris. Roger
Copley, recorded in 1482, but died v.p.before 21 December 1490, when the
will of William Copley, left a bequest for masses for his brothers Oliver,
Roger and Thomas.
It tells us that Sir Richard Copley was alive after 1482 and probably still
by 1490. I have that Sir Richard wrote his will 16 July 1434. If Sir Richard
was born, say, 1400 (he had children in the 1420s) then he could well be
alive in 1490.
What do you think?
In regards of the wives of Sir Richard Copley, it is hard to say because we
really need Primary sources. But on the face of it, my guess is that Faris
is probably correct. The scope of Paget's work is just enormous and so you
should not be surprised that errors have crept in.
Does anyone have better information?
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas,
Canberra, Australia
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There were posts here in Feb 2004 on this topic.
Doug Smith
Jwc...@aol.com
I`ve read them. I beleve Elizabeth Harington to be the
mother, but I have reservations about John Harrington of Doncaster being the same
person as John , 4th Lord Harrington who married Elizabeth Courtenay. While
passage of Doncaster, York from John Harrington to William Copley, Gent. of
Doncaster seems pretty straight foreward, the Barony of Harrington didn`t go
with it and unless it was only under John`s younger brother William that
provision was made to allow for succession to the Barony of Harrington through the
female line. They can not have been one and the same person.
Sincerely.
John Higgins
Roger Copley of Roughey. As has been noted, Faris in both PA1 and PA2 said
he was a son of Sir Richard Copley's 2nd wife Elizabeth Harington. But RPA
revised this to say that he was a son by the 1st wife Margaret Denton,
citing conflicting sources without noting the conflicts and overlooking at
least one source on the family.
Both PA1/PA2 and RPA cite an article, by V. C. Sanborn, in "The Genealogist
[new series]", vol 33, 1917, which accepts Elizabeth Harrington [sic] as the
mother of Roger Copley, while noting that some early visitation pedigrees
give him a different mother. Sanborn cites, inter alia, Rev. Joseph
Hunter's "South Yorkshire", which asserts that Sir Richard Copley had only
one son by the 1st marriage: Lionel, who inherited Batley. All the
remaining sons, including Roger the sixth son, are said to be from the 2nd
marriage.
As to Elizabeth Harrington she is said by Sanborn (possibly based on Hunter)
to be dau. and sole heir of John Harrington of Doncaster, and granddaughter
of Sir William Harrington of Brierley by his wife Margaret, daughter of Sir
Robert Nevile [of Hornby], and aunt and co-heir of Margaret [Nevile],
Duchess of Exeter (wife of Thomas Beaufort). The sketchy pedigrees that
I've seen for the Harington/Harrington families indicate that this John
Harrington was not the one who was the 4th Lord Harington, and thus the
question of succession to the title by the Copleys is not relevant.
Both PA1/PA2 and RPA say that Roger Copley was born ca. 1430, but it's not
clear what this is based on, except perhaps that his father Sir Richard made
his will 16 July 1434 and the will was proved 28 Sept 1434.
FWIW, Roger Copley of Roughey and his wife Anne Hoo are ancestors of Princes
William and Harry (and no doubt many others) through four of their children.
----- Original Message -----
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Cc: <Jwc1870@AOL..com>
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Leo van de Pas
Leo
Jwc...@aol.com
John Higgins in his post of yesterday said that Sir Richard
Copley`s will of 16 July 1434 was proved on September 28 , 1434. So vp should
definitely be vf (vita fratis).
For what it`s worth a couple of websites say Elizabeth Harrington was the
daughter of John Harrington of Doncaster died 1465 by his wife Isabel Sewer died
1462, daughter of Richard Sewer and wife Joan, grandson as John said of
William Harrington variously described as of Briarley, Hornby and Farleton whose
lineage is given in Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists line 35 and 34
by Margaret de Neville whose ancestry is given in AR 247 her parents being
Robert Neville of Hornby and Margaret de la Pole. Sir William Harrington was a
knight of the Garter , standard bearer at the Battle of Agincourt, was wounded
at the siege of Rouen in 1419 and died 22 February 1439/40 being son of
Nicholas Harrington and Isabel English.
Sincerely,
Douglas Richardson
You can find pedigrees of the Copley family in the following sources:
1. R. Thoresby, Ducatus Leodiensis 2: (1816): 11.
2. J. Foster, Peds. of Fams. of Yorkshire (1874) (Copley arms: Argent,
a cross moline sable).
3. R. Glover, Vis. of Yorkshire 1584/5, 1612 (1875): 10.
4. W. Flower, Vis. of Yorkshire 1563-4 (H.S.P. 16) (1881): 78-80.
5. T. Benolte et al., Vis. Sussex 1530, 1633-4 (H.S.P. 53) (1905):
111.
6. W. Harvey et al., Vis. of the North 2 (Surtees Soc.133) (1921): 163.
Reference #6 identifies Margaret Denton as the mother of Roger Copley.
I believe that is correct. The chronology of Elizabeth Harrington's
family seems to prohibit her being the mother of Roger Copley.
In medieval genealogy, it's chronology, chronology, chronology, much
like real estate which is location, location, location.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
WJho...@aol.com
question?
William /Harington/ , K.G. of Brierley
is said to have died *at* Hornby Castle, Leicestershire
22 Feb 1439/40
He had at least two sons
John /Harrington/ of Doncaster, Yorkshire d 1465
and
Thomas /Harington/ , Knt d 1461 Battle of Wakefield
Obviously neither son d.v.p. and so the question is, which son inherited
Hornby ?
Right now I have the two sons of Thomas as "of Hornby" but since I only have
one daughter for John the brother of Thomas, this doesn't preclude John from
being the elder brother who inherited and then at his death the castle devolved
to his nephew.
The alternative is that Thomas was the elder brother and the castle descended
to his own son upon his death at Wakefield.
I'm not sure which is the correct view.
Will Johnson
Jwc...@aol.com
As You say... it doesn`t preclude John being the elder but as
He is apparently always styled as `of Doncaster` and Thomas was `of Hornby`
then It seems likely that John was the younger son, as William of Briarley
succeeded both his father (or maybe a elder brother) at Farleton and hisv
father-in-law at Hornby.
I find it interesting that Roger Copley Esq, an apparent grandson of John
Harington`s was a member of the Company of mercers just as John`s maternal Great
grandfather William de la Pole, 1st Earl of Suffolk was. Or was He a banker?
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
rather than Doncaster.
WJho...@aol.com
writes:
<< As You say... it doesn`t preclude John being the elder but
as
He is apparently always styled as `of Doncaster` and Thomas was `of Hornby`
>>
I don't however have a document where Thomas is actually styled "of Hornby",
only that his sons were.
Do you have one?
Thanks
Will Johnson
Merilyn Pedrick
How was John's maternal great grandfather arrived at? I haven't a wife for
William Harrington.
I've just changed Roger Copley's mother from Margaret Denton to Elizabeth
Harrington, so I'm just trying to catch up with that information and all it
implies!
Best wishes
Merilyn Pedrick
-------Original Message-------
From: Jwc...@aol.com
Date: 01/01/07 10:29:20
To: GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com
Cc: Jwc1870@AOL..com
Subject: Re: Who was John Harrington of Doncaster ?
He is apparently always styled as `of Doncaster` and Thomas was `of Hornby`
succeeded both his father (or maybe a elder brother) at Farleton and hisv
father-in-law at Hornby.
I find it interesting that Roger Copley Esq, an apparent grandson of John
Harington`s was a member of the Company of mercers just as John`s maternal
Great
grandfather William de la Pole, 1st Earl of Suffolk was. Or was He a banker?
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
PS if John had been the elder son, the Copleys would have inherited Hornby
rather than Doncaster.
al...@mindspring.com
If Sir Thomas Harington (died at Wakefield) who married Elizabeth de
Dacre abt. 1420/1425 was the older brother of John of Doncaster, then
say b. abt 1400. If we say John was b as early as 1402 and married say
1423, than the earliest Elizabeth Harington could have been born was
abt 1423. Not likely she had children until at least 1437. Since
Roger Copley was supposedly born abt 1429, it would appear that Douglas
Richardson has a good point about the chronology and that Margaret
Denton may well have been the mother of most, if not all the children.
Doug Smith
> I've just changed Roger Copley's mother from Margaret Denton to Elizabeth
> Harrington, so I'm just trying to catch up with that information and all it
> implies!
> Best wishes
> Merilyn Pedrick
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
> From: Jwc1...@aol.com
> Date: 01/01/07 10:29:20
> To: GEN-MEDIE...@rootsweb.com
>
> Cc: Jwc1870@AOL..com
> Subject: Re: Who was John Harrington of Doncaster ?
>
> Dear Will,
> As You say... it doesn`t preclude John being the elder but as
> He is apparently always styled as `of Doncaster` and Thomas was `of Hornby`
> then It seems likely that John was the younger son, as William of Briarley
> succeeded both his father (or maybe a elder brother) at Farleton and hisv
> father-in-law at Hornby.
> I find it interesting that Roger Copley Esq, an apparent grandson of John
> Harington`s was a member of the Company of mercers just as John`s maternal
> Great
> grandfather William de la Pole, 1st Earl of Suffolk was. Or was He a banker?
> Sincerely,
> James W Cummings
> Dixmont, Maine USA
> PS if John had been the elder son, the Copleys would have inherited Hornby
> rather than Doncaster.
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEVAL-requ...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Jwc...@aol.com
According to AR 7
line 247 Margaret Neville , heiress of Hornby , daughter of Sir Robert
Neville of Hornby by his wife Margaret de la Pole. She was married to Sir William
Harrington of Farleton and Chotley, Lancaster died abt 1440. see CP IX 200-201.
If Margaret Denton were Roger Copley`s mother, how did Doncaster descend to
William Copley, Gent. Roger`s older brother ? We know that Sir Richard Copley
was deceased by September 28, 1434 when his will was proved and that Elizabeth
Harrington his wife was dead as well in May of 1456. As She did marry Richard,
she would have been 11 years old when He died. Not even of marrigable age.
Thomas and John may in fact have had to have been born before 1387 as their
apparent mother was dead at that time. All of which forces the timeline back by
at least 13? years for them and their sister Agnes the wife of Alexander
Radcliffe.
Merilyn Pedrick
Thankyou for that. I've got both wives listed as belonging to Sir Richard
Copley, so I can easily assign Roger to either mother when it becomes clear
which one it is.
Merilyn
-------Original Message-------
and the body of the message
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Merilyn Pedrick
The plot thickens. By the way, your e-mail address is bouncing my e-mails
to you.
Merilyn
-------Original Message-------
From: Jwc...@aol.com
Date: 01/01/07 14:08:56
To: GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com
Cc: Jwc1870@AOL..com
Subject: Re: Who was John Harrington of Doncaster ?
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
WJho...@aol.com
writes:
<< We know that Sir Richard Copley
was deceased by September 28, 1434 when his will was proved and that
Elizabeth
Harrington his wife was dead as well in May of 1456. As She did marry
Richard,
she would have been 11 years old when He died. >>
I don't have anything that tells me that year Elizabeth Harrington was born.
So how did you arrive at 11 years old when Richard died in 1434 ?
If you are balancing that on top of a guess as to whether John her father was
the younger brother, I'd say that's not a valid way to prove Elizabeth's age.
FIRST we need to determine IF John was the younger brother. And we haven't
yet done that.
Will
Douglas Richardson
Harington to be the mother of Roger Copley, if Roger was born about
1430.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Jwc...@aol.com
Doug Smith indicated that He (and Douglas Richardson ) had
assigned Elizabeth Harrington had assigned a birthdate of abt 1423 based on a
birthdate of abt 1400 for John but if Margaret Neville died bef 1387 that theory
is shot. Of Course it also means that John didn`t die until He was 78 years or
more old.... and Thomas who was killed at Wakefield in 1461 was at least 74
provided They were twins. Thomas Harington definitely belonged to Margaret as
He recieved Hornby rather than its` passing to their sister Agnes Radcliffe.
Another alternative is that Margaret survived until 1413 and her father Robert
b abt 1421 -d 1413 according to AR 7 line 247 was the one who died bef 1387,
provided that shouldn`t have been married bef 1387.
Jwc...@aol.com
You have the date of Sir Richard Copley`s will as 16 July
1434. Any Idea of where to get a copy or is it merely listed in a calendar of
wills ? Also, while Roger was stated to have died vita patris, it was in fact
Richard who seems to have done so,if his father was the John Copley of Gatton,
Surrey died in abt 1440. his mother was apparently Margaret Hutton.
al...@mindspring.com
CP V 204 footnote b which is referenced above cites a writ of diem cl.
ext dated abt 1427 which refers to Margaret now the wife of William
Harrington. AR misread CP. CP IX 490-491 clearly says Thomas de
Neville heir apparent dvp bef 1387. Thomas' daughter Margaret married
Thomas Beaufort. His sister Margaret married Sir William Harington.
It appears that the bef 1387 got moved from one person to another.
Doug Smith
WJho...@aol.com
In a message dated 1/1/2007 5:33:13 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
Jwc...@aol.com writes:
and Thomas who was killed at Wakefield in 1461 was at least 74
provided They were twins. Thomas Harington definitely belonged to Margaret
as
He recieved Hornby rather than its` passing to their sister Agnes Radcliffe.
First how do you know they were twins.
Secondly how do you know Thomas received Hornby.
Thanks
Will Johnson
John Higgins
Copley was dated 16 July 1434 and proved at York 28 Sept 1434. For this
(and the will of Sir Richard's son William), Sanborn cites Testamenta
Eboracensia, vol. iv, pp. 47-50.
What source gives Sir Richard's parents as John Copley of Gatton and [?]
Margaret Hutton? There is an old posting in the archives from Marlyn Lewis
in 1998 which cites Foster's Yorkshire Pedigrees and takes the Copley
pedigree back to the Conquest (conveniently), but I wonder how reliable that
is....
BTW, the notion that Sir Richard's son Roger died vp apparently comes from
one of the visitation pedigrees. Sanborn mentions that "one pedigree states
that Roger Copley, son of Sir Richard, died s.p. in his father's lifetime".
He apparently gives no credit to this source (which he doesn't specifically
identify) and goes on to give the more accepted version of Roger's details.
It appears the visitation in question may be Flower's 1563-4 visitation of
Yorkshire (Harleian Society vol. 16) which indicates Roger as dying sp
although not specifically vp.
----- Original Message -----
From: <Jwc...@aol.com>
To: <GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com>
Cc: <Jwc1870@AOL..com>
Sent: Monday, January 01, 2007 5:51 AM
Subject: Re: Who was John Harrington of Doncaster ?
WJho...@aol.com
children, it is useful to remove the layers of indirect discussion.
We've had many statement as to certain facts without reference to the
underlying authority. I notice that the Roger Copley family is referenced in AR8,
line 17 where he cites his authorities as "CP IV:155-156, VI:561-565,
XII(2):443-4, 449-50, 522"
In addition Roger Copley is referenced by Leo where he cites ""The Lineage
and Ancestry of H.R.H. Prince Charles, Prince of Wales, Edinburgh, 1977, Paget,
Gerald, Reference: P 59007" and "The Complete Peerage, 1936 , Doubleday, H.A.
& Lord Howard de Walden, Reference: IV 156"
I can supply the information from CP IV but it does NOT go to show who
Roger's parents were, it does not show that he was b abt 1429/30, it does not state
he was sixth son, it does not state when he died.
The CP IV: 155-6 reference only says this about Roger Copley
"He [Thomas de la Warre] m., 2ndly, Eleanor, da of Sir Roger Copley, of
Roughway, Sussex, by Anne, 2nd da. and coh. of Thomas (Hoo), Baron Hoo and
Hastings...."
So from that reference we only get confirmation of one daughter, a placename,
and his wife.
Perhaps one of the other references (which I don't have access to), expresses
the points that he was
1) Sixth son
2) b abt 1429/30
3) a YOUNGER brother of William Copley of Doncaster (as opposed to a
half-brother, or elder brother)
Will Johnson
Jwc...@aol.com
Apparently Leo got the 1429/30 birthdate for Roger either from
Sir Richard Copley of Batley`s will of 16 July 1434 or Gerald Paget`s
Ancestry of the Prince of Wales. the sixth son comment is probably either from John
Higgins or Doug Smith and is likely based on a flawed visitation pedigree which
claimed He died dsp vp. that said, Faris in PA 1 and 2 says Roger`s mother
was Elizabeth , daughter of John Harington, of Doncaster, West Riding. Roger
Copley, Esq was of record as a mercer in 1482, but died before 21 December 1490
when his brother William Copley, Gent. of Doncaster, West Riding left a
bequest for masses for his brothers Oliver, Roger and Thomas. Lionel , Richard`s
eldest son inherited Batley and is known to be by Margaret Denton. As for
William, Oliver, Roger and Thomas a lot hinges on whether or not Doncaster is merely
a town in York or a manor. If the former either woman could be their mother,
if the latter , Elizabeth was and William was either the eldest brother else
succeeded on his death and may in fact have been the youngest. Hopefully,
Richard`s IPM (after September 28, 1424) will yield up proof.
al...@mindspring.com
on whether or not Doncaster is merely
> a town in York or a manor. If the former either woman could be their mother,
> if the latter , Elizabeth was and William was either the eldest brother else
> succeeded on his death and may in fact have been the youngest. Hopefully,
> Richard`s IPM (after September 28, 1424) will yield up proof.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> James W Cummings
>
> Dixmont, Maine USA
FWIW
from Wikipedia:
Doncaster is a town in the English county of South Yorkshire, and the
principal settlement of the Metropolitan Borough of Doncaster in South
Yorkshire. The town is located approximately 20 miles from Sheffield
and is popularly referred to by some of its residents as Donny.
The Metropolitan Borough of Doncaster has frequently applied for city
status but despite Doncaster's size and history, it has yet to be given
the title. Doncaster boasts a new International airport and its centre
is undergoing massive regeneration including the development of an
Education City campus, the largest budget education investment of its
kind in the UK.
According to the 2001 census the urban sub-area of Doncaster had a
population of 67,977 - together with Bentley, Armthorpe and Kirk
Sandall it forms an urban area with a population of 127,851. The wider
Metropolitan Borough has a population of around 290,000.
Could not find a manor of Doncaster with a web search. There was a
manor Brodsworth there.
Doug Smith
John Higgins
Hoo. Anne Hoo, one of the coheirs of this family, was the wife of Roger
Copley of Roughey (erroneously called Sir Roger by CP), but this CP article
says nothing about his birthdate or parentage.
All of the AR8 references to CP XII.2 contain no mention at all of any
Copleys. The first two sets of references pertain the Welles family
(including Eleanor the mother of Anne Hoo) and the last is to the West
family (into which a daughter of Roger Copley and Anne Hoo married), but no
Copleys mentioned.
Since we're validating references here, mention should be made of the 6
Copley pedigree references that Douglas Richardson cited in an earlier post
in this thread (which made it to SGM but not to Gen-Med).
1. R. Thoresby, Ducatus Leodiensis 2: (1816): 11.
[not available to me]
2. J. Foster, Peds. of Fams. of Yorkshire (1874) (Copley arms: Argent,
a cross moline sable).
[cited by Marlyn Lewis in 1998 in gen-Med as saying that Roger was son of
Sir Richard by Elizabeth Harrington - no dates given]
3. R. Glover, Vis. of Yorkshire 1584/5, 1612 (1875): 10.
[edited by Joseph Foster, who says that Roger was son of Elizabeth
Harrington, but indicates that various Harleian MSS are in conflict on this
point. Foster says the pedigree showing Elizabeth as mother is in agreement
with his Yorkshire Collections (mentioned above) and with Hunter's South
Yorkshire, 1:51]
4. W. Flower, Vis. of Yorkshire 1563-4 (H.S.P. 16) (1881): 78-80.
[two pedigrees, presumably from different Harleian MSS. One gives Sir
Richard and Margaret Denton a son Roger who died sp. The other pedigree
assigns all the sons of Sir Richard to Margaret Denton, but the editor has
added an unsourced footnote saying that only Lionel was a son by Margaret
and all the others were by Elizabeth. Roger is said here to be the 5th son,
with marriage and one son shown, but no dates.]
5. T. Benolte et al., Vis. Sussex 1530, 1633-4 (H.S.P. 53) (1905): 111.
[Pedigree starts with "Sir" Roger Copley who mar. Anne Hoo - no dates or
parentage given.]
6. W. Harvey et al., Vis. of the North 2 (Surtees Soc.133) (1921): 163.
[all children of Sir Richard are said to be by his only wife Margaret
Denton - no mention of Elizabeth Harrington. Roger is called 5th son - no
dates, marriage or issue for him. It is clear from the introduction to this
volume is from one of the versions of Flower's visitation - #4 above]
Two other Copley pedigrees can be added to this list [not mentioned by PA1/2
or RPA]:
7. J. W. Clay's edition of Dugdale's 1610 visitation of Yorkshire (as
published in "The Genealogist" [new series] vol. 1) says that Lionel was the
only son of Sir Richard by Margaret Denton. The other sons were by
Elizabeth, including Roger who is noted as the 6th son (5th of the second
marriage). No dates or marriage for Roger, who is mentioned because he had
a son William mentioned in the will of William Copley of Doncaster, uncle of
William and older brother of Roger).
8. Rev. Joseph Hunter, South Yorkshire, 1:51, lists Roger as 5th [and
youngest] son by the 2nd wife Elizabeth and specifies no dates, marriage or
issue for him. Hunter cites the will of Roger's brother William.
The net result is that only those sources based on Flower's visitation show
our Roger as son of Margaret Denton - all subsequent authors and editors
have followed the Elizabeth Harrington route - until RPA. I'd say the
question is still doubtful. I'm not sold by the argument of chronology
among the Harringtons, which seems to be based on a series of guesses over
at least a couple of generations. But I guess we all can draw our own
conclusions....
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJho...@aol.com>
To: <GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, January 01, 2007 2:04 PM
Subject: Re: Who was John Harrington of Doncaster ?
WJho...@aol.com
writes:
<< Apparently Leo got the 1429/30 birthdate for Roger either from
Sir Richard Copley of Batley`s will of 16 July 1434 or Gerald Paget`s
Ancestry of the Prince of Wales. the sixth son comment is probably either
from John
Higgins or Doug Smith and is likely based on a flawed visitation pedigree
which
claimed He died dsp vp. >>
Roger Copley did not dspvp since his daughter Eleanor Copley married Thomas
West, 8th Lord de Laware and had at least three children, each of which had
their own children.
Unless you are sumitting or have reference to a CP correction on that. See CP
IV 155-6
Will Johnson
Douglas Richardson
Inasofar as the birth date of Roger Copley is concerned, I show that he
was apprenticed to a London mercer and was subsequently admitted to the
Mercers' Company, London in 1456. He married before 1467 Anne Hoo,
who was born about 1448 (she being aged 7 at her father's death in
1455).
By comparison, I show that Anne Hoo's nephew, William Boleyn, was born
about 1451 (aged 36 in 1487, aged under 22 on 18 Nov. 1469). He
married before 16 Nov. 1469 (date of grant) Margaret Butler. He was
admitted to Mercers' Company, London in 1472.
If Roger Copley's admittance to the Mercers' Company followed the same
path as William Boleyn's, then Roger Copley would have been quite
young, 21 perhaps, when he was admitted to the Mercers' Company in
1456. This would suggest a birthdate for him of approximately 1355.
WJho...@aol.com
royala...@msn.com writes:
<< Inasofar as the birth date of Roger Copley is concerned, I show that he
was apprenticed to a London mercer and was subsequently admitted to the
Mercers' Company, London in 1456. He married before 1467 Anne Hoo,
who was born about 1448 (she being aged 7 at her father's death in 1455).
....[snipped]
If Roger Copley's admittance to the Mercers' Company followed the same
path as William Boleyn's, then Roger Copley would have been quite
young, 21 perhaps, when he was admitted to the Mercers' Company in
1456. This would suggest a birthdate for him of approximately 1355. >>
Correcting the above "1355" to read "1435"
Not that I necessarily agree of course :)
Will
Douglas Richardson
Although I haven't studied the matter in depth, I get the impression
that under normal circumstances you were expected to be at least 21
when you were admitted to the Mercer's Company.
If so, perhaps the best way to phrase this would be to say that Roger
Copley was born before 1435, and leave it at that.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
> 1456. This would suggest a birthdate for him of approximately 1435.
Jwc...@aol.com
As his father was dead by 28 September 1434, 1455 is an
impossibilty.
Tim Powys-Lybbe
> The reference cited from AR8 to CP VI is to the article on the family of
> Hoo. Anne Hoo, one of the coheirs of this family, was the wife of Roger
> Copley of Roughey (erroneously called Sir Roger by CP), but this CP article
> says nothing about his birthdate or parentage.
>
> All of the AR8 references to CP XII.2 contain no mention at all of any
> Copleys. The first two sets of references pertain the Welles family
> (including Eleanor the mother of Anne Hoo) and the last is to the West
> family (into which a daughter of Roger Copley and Anne Hoo married), but no
> Copleys mentioned.
>
> Since we're validating references here, mention should be made of the 6
> Copley pedigree references that Douglas Richardson cited in an earlier post
> in this thread (which made it to SGM but not to Gen-Med).
>
> 1. R. Thoresby, Ducatus Leodiensis 2: (1816): 11.
> [not available to me]
Page 11 of Part 2 of Ducatus Leodinensis, pub 1816, is a list of
fragments of sculptures of Roman times from the catalogue of the
antiquities of the Museum Thoresbyanum.
Page 11 of Part 1 of the same is a pedigree of a Copley family of
Batley, Yorks, though it has no references. It shows a Sir Richard
Copley who m. (2) a Dame Elizabeth d. and h. of Sir John Harrington, knt
3d Hen 7; they had sons William, Thomas, Oliver, Roger, Lionel,
Percival, Jonathan and John.
The first marriage with Dame Margaret, d. of Sir Richard Denton, Knt is
shown with one son only, Lyon of Batley.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
Douglas Richardson
I didn't say "in or before 1435." I said "before 1435."
The date "28 September 1434" is obviously "before 1435."
I recommend you study the admittance records of the Mercers Company of
London to see what was a typical age for someone to be admitted. Then
you might have a better fix on when Roger Copley was born. Good luck
in your sleuthing.
DR