de la Riviere Family

[Lisa Beitchef]

Hi thanks for your reply PDel...@aol.com I don't think Augustus de la
Riviere ever left Normandy France. His daughter Claudia born abt 1074
married Philippe de Lempriere born abt 1072 son of Rodolph de Lempriere in
the Channel Islands. Augustus full name was Augustus de Vassy de la Riviere,
a supposed son of Robert, Count of Evreux. I am looking for evidence to
prove of disprove this theory. The Dictionnaire de la Noblesse 3rd Edition
records some information on this de la Riviere family but I don't speak
French.

[Wjhonson]

Lisa.....
It must occur to you, that in a thousand years someone has written something about Robert and his children.
In English.

-----Original Message-----
From: Lisa Beitchef <lisabe...@gmail.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Mon, Nov 28, 2011 10:40 am
Subject: de la Riviere Family



Hi thanks for your reply PDel...@aol.com I don't think Augustus de la

iviere ever left Normandy France. His daughter Claudia born abt 1074

arried Philippe de Lempriere born abt 1072 son of Rodolph de Lempriere in

he Channel Islands. Augustus full name was Augustus de Vassy de la Riviere,

supposed son of Robert, Count of Evreux. I am looking for evidence to

rove of disprove this theory. The Dictionnaire de la Noblesse 3rd Edition

ecords some information on this de la Riviere family but I don't speak

rench.



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he message

[Peter Stewart]

On 29/11/2011 4:53 AM, Lisa Beitchef wrote:
>
>
> Hi thanks for your reply PDel...@aol.com I don't think Augustus de la

> Riviere ever left Normandy France. His daughter Claudia born abt 1074
> married Philippe de Lempriere born abt 1072 son of Rodolph de Lempriere in
> the Channel Islands. Augustus full name was Augustus de Vassy de la Riviere,
> a supposed son of Robert, Count of Evreux. I am looking for evidence to
> prove of disprove this theory. The Dictionnaire de la Noblesse 3rd Edition
> records some information on this de la Riviere family but I don't speak
> French.

These people are fictitious - they came from the mind of Bertrand Payne,
who compiled phoney pedigrees of Jersey families in the mid-19th century
that he published by subscription. The more you paid, the older your family.

The name Lempriere according to him was derived from "l'empereur" (the
emperor). Not co-incidentally he invented names for individuals harking
back to ancient Rome (Augustus and Claudia for instance) that were not
used in the 11th century. He became desperate in seeking the
verisimiltude that eluded him, trying on biblical names such as like
Zachariah for Norman seigneurs.

Forget it entirely. The only recorded offspring of Robert, archbishop of
Rouen & count of Evreux were:

Richard, count of Evreux whose daughter Agnes left modern decendants
through her marriage to Simon I of Montfort

Guillaume whose daughter Judith, first wife of Roger Bosso of Sicily,
left descendants, and

Raoul known as "Ass-head", of Gac é, who left a son named Robert not
known to have married.

That is all - no Augustus de la Riviere.

Peter Stewart


^^

[hsone]

On Nov 28, 9:53 am, "Lisa Beitchef" <lisabeitc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi thanks for your reply PDelor...@aol.com I don't think Augustus de la

Lisa,

Auvray, Seigneur de Vassy, is cited in Charters of Henry II in 1165
and 1169 and had sons surviving until 1233 so could not have been
father of an Augustus (the French name would be Auguste) whose
daughter was born circa 1074. The first of the Vassys line were Hugues
and son Robert who were believed in combat at Hastings, but that point
is not important ony that Robert had a brother Yves and probably
another named Guillaume. No Auguste. Also this Auvray was the first
Auvray, Seigneur de Vassy.

The Poindexter page of your first post has too many errors to bother
pointing out which include incorrect dates, spouses and descent.
Sorry.

HS

[Wjhonson]

On account of the extraordinary size of his head and shaggy hair

http://books.google.com/books?id=mV0Nraz8B4sC&dq=ralph%20tete%20d'ane&pg=PA476#v=onepage&q=ralph%20tete%20d'ane&f=false










-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Stewart <pss...@optusnet.com.au>
Cc: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Mon, Nov 28, 2011 1:37 pm
Subject: Re: de la Riviere Family


On 29/11/2011 4:53 AM, Lisa Beitchef wrote:


Hi thanks for your reply PDel...@aol.com I don't think Augustus de la

Riviere ever left Normandy France. His daughter Claudia born abt 1074
married Philippe de Lempriere born abt 1072 son of Rodolph de Lempriere in
the Channel Islands. Augustus full name was Augustus de Vassy de la Riviere,
a supposed son of Robert, Count of Evreux. I am looking for evidence to
prove of disprove this theory. The Dictionnaire de la Noblesse 3rd Edition
records some information on this de la Riviere family but I don't speak
French.

These people are fictitious - they came from the mind of Bertrand Payne,

ho compiled phoney pedigrees of Jersey families in the mid-19th century

hat he published by subscription. The more you paid, the older your family.
The name Lempriere according to him was derived from "l'empereur" (the

mperor). Not co-incidentally he invented names for individuals harking

ack to ancient Rome (Augustus and Claudia for instance) that were not

sed in the 11th century. He became desperate in seeking the

erisimiltude that eluded him, trying on biblical names such as like

achariah for Norman seigneurs.
Forget it entirely. The only recorded offspring of Robert, archbishop of

ouen & count of Evreux were:
Richard, count of Evreux whose daughter Agnes left modern decendants

hrough her marriage to Simon I of Montfort
Guillaume whose daughter Judith, first wife of Roger Bosso of Sicily,

eft descendants, and
Raoul known as "Ass-head", of Gac é, who left a son named Robert not

nown to have married.
That is all - no Augustus de la Riviere.
Peter Stewart

^

[Peter Stewart]

On 29/11/2011 8:24 AM, Peter Stewart wrote:
> On 29/11/2011 4:53 AM, Lisa Beitchef wrote:
>>
>> Hi thanks for your reply PDel...@aol.com I don't think Augustus de la
>> Riviere ever left Normandy France. His daughter Claudia born abt 1074
>> married Philippe de Lempriere born abt 1072 son of Rodolph de Lempriere in
>> the Channel Islands. Augustus full name was Augustus de Vassy de la Riviere,
>> a supposed son of Robert, Count of Evreux. I am looking for evidence to
>> prove of disprove this theory. The Dictionnaire de la Noblesse 3rd Edition
>> records some information on this de la Riviere family but I don't speak
>> French.
> These people are fictitious - they came from the mind of Bertrand Payne,

> who compiled phoney pedigrees of Jersey families in the mid-19th century
> that he published by subscription. The more you paid, the older your family.

>
> The name Lempriere according to him was derived from "l'empereur" (the

> emperor). Not co-incidentally he invented names for individuals harking
> back to ancient Rome (Augustus and Claudia for instance) that were not
> used in the 11th century. He became desperate in seeking the
> verisimiltude that eluded him, trying on biblical names such as like
> Zachariah for Norman seigneurs.

>
> Forget it entirely. The only recorded offspring of Robert, archbishop of

> Rouen& count of Evreux were:

>
> Richard, count of Evreux whose daughter Agnes left modern decendants

> through her marriage to Simon I of Montfort

>
> Guillaume whose daughter Judith, first wife of Roger Bosso of Sicily,

> left descendants, and

>
> Raoul known as "Ass-head", of Gac é, who left a son named Robert not

> known to have married.

>
> That is all - no Augustus de la Riviere.

Payne tried to pass off a direct falsehood in linking the family of La
Riviere to the Norman ducal family through Robert.

He wrote:

"Philip de Lempriere, born circa 1072, married Claudia de la Riviere, a
daughter of an illustrious Norman house, derived by Ordericus Vitalis,
Le Boeuf, and other historians, from Rudolph, son of Robert, Count of
Evreux, by Herlue, his legitimate wife. This Robert was
great-grandson of Rollo." (see
http://www.archive.org/details/armorialofjersey00paynrich, p. 230).

But Orderic explicitly stated that Robert son of Count Robert's son
"Rudolph" (i.e. Radulf or Raoul Ass-head) died without issue and his
inheritance was taken by Duke William (" /Rodbertus de Waceio filius
Radulphi filii Rodberti archiepiscopi sine liberis mortuus est, et
Willelmus dux cognatus eius totam hæreditatem eius in dominio suo nactus
est./ ") There are no other recorded descendants of this line, and
Orderic does not suggest that anyone was dispossessed by the duke.

Peter Stewart

[John]

On Nov 28, 1:24 pm, Peter Stewart <pss...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
> On 29/11/2011 4:53 AM, Lisa Beitchef wrote:
>
>
>

> > Hi thanks for your reply PDelor...@aol.com I don't think Augustus de la

> > Riviere ever left Normandy France. His daughter Claudia born abt 1074
> > married Philippe de Lempriere born abt 1072 son of Rodolph de Lempriere in
> > the Channel Islands. Augustus full name was Augustus de Vassy de la Riviere,
> > a supposed son of Robert, Count of Evreux. I am looking for evidence to
> > prove of disprove this theory. The Dictionnaire de la Noblesse 3rd Edition
> > records some information on this de la Riviere family but I don't speak
> > French.
>
> These people are fictitious - they came from the mind of Bertrand Payne,
> who compiled phoney pedigrees of Jersey families in the mid-19th century
> that he published by subscription. The more you paid, the older your family.
>

Can you point us to sources that provide background on Bertrand Payne
and document his compilation of phony pedigrees?

(I'm not arguing with your statement - I'm just interested in the
background of this particular case of fraudulent genealogy. And not
de la Riveire but Payne in general as a genealogist.]

[PDel...@aol.com]

....furthermore the name Lemprière is quite a famous Huguenot one, with a
very fine Australian artist of that name whose paintings grace two of the
rooms in my house!!!

Peter(de L)

[Peter Stewart]

I'm not aware of any scholarly study of Payne's work - this is hardly
merited anyway. In later generations I suppose it is just as reliable or
otherwise as such work usually was in the mid-19th century, basically a
commercial exploitation of vanity in minor gentry families.

As to the fictitious early generations, the comment was based on my
assessment of his _Monograph of the House of Lempriere_ (1862), an
extract from _An Armorial of Jersey_ of which two (out of six) issues
are on Internet Archive, which was reprinted by an Australian descendant
of the family in the 1970s. The original publication was also paid for
by a Lempriere.

This kind of work could be considered "Eglinton tournament" genealogy,
an expression of the romantic interest in the middle ages that had been
overstimulated in the early decades of the century.

Peter Stewart

[John]

Thanks for this further information on Payne's work. As you say, his
work does sound similar in quality (and perhaps with same degree of
inventiveness) as many other mid-19 century writers - for example, the
early works of Sir Bernard Burke.

As it happens, it was by way of the Lempriere family that I first came
across Payne's work - both his Lempriere monograph and his Armorial of
Jersey. I haven't had reason yet to go back to the earliest
generations of his Lempriere work, and so this may be an unfair
question, but I'd be interested as to whether you can make an
assessment as to the general point (chronologically) where his
Lempriere pedigree becomes more-or-less acceptable and not toally
implausaible.

[Peter Stewart]

My opinion on this is not as good as your own since I have never studied
the family at all - I would say that everything down to and including
"John de Lampriere, Seigneur of Pontrilly, born circa 1202, married
Florence des Riviers, daughter of Zachariah, Seigneur of Amfreville",
etc (on page 231), is garbage.

From that point on I couldn't be so sure, because the names become more
consistent and plausible, and from "Raoul Lempriere, said to have
founded the great insular family of his name in Jersey" Payne starts to
recount specific events that should be verifiable in records. I doubt
that he would have courted ridicule by inventing such details. At the
time it was fairly easy to take in the audience with waffle like the
first past on pp. 230-231 - for instance, Burke (who wasn't much better
himself) cited all of this approvingly in Landed Gentry.

Peter Stewart

[Lisa Beitchef]

Hi thanks for all the work added to this post. Below is the story on a
popular website with regards to this family. I descend from this family
multiple times and all of the later work on the pedigree is correct and
matches records stored in the Islands.

Is the Lempriere pedigree the only one effected by Payne's fictitious works?
Does anyone know if the de Carteret and Dumaresq pedigrees are also
effected?

http://www.guernsey-society.org.uk/donkipedia/index.php5?title=Lempriere

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Peter Stewart
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 7:29 PM
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: de la Riviere Family

My opinion on this is not as good as your own since I have never studied
the family at all - I would say that everything down to and including
"John de Lampriere, Seigneur of Pontrilly, born circa 1202, married
Florence des Riviers, daughter of Zachariah, Seigneur of Amfreville",
etc (on page 231), is garbage.

From that point on I couldn't be so sure, because the names become more
consistent and plausible, and from "Raoul Lempriere, said to have
founded the great insular family of his name in Jersey" Payne starts to
recount specific events that should be verifiable in records. I doubt
that he would have courted ridicule by inventing such details. At the
time it was fairly easy to take in the audience with waffle like the
first past on pp. 230-231 - for instance, Burke (who wasn't much better
himself) cited all of this approvingly in Landed Gentry.

Peter Stewart

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[Peter Stewart]

On 30/11/2011 4:46 AM, Lisa Beitchef wrote:
> Hi thanks for all the work added to this post. Below is the story on a
> popular website with regards to this family. I descend from this family
> multiple times and all of the later work on the pedigree is correct and
> matches records stored in the Islands.
>
> Is the Lempriere pedigree the only one effected by Payne's fictitious works?
> Does anyone know if the de Carteret and Dumaresq pedigrees are also
> effected?
>
> http://www.guernsey-society.org.uk/donkipedia/index.php5?title=Lempriere

The Carteret article in _An Armorial of Jersey_ starts with the kind of
fanfare that is almost invariably a marker of gaseous nonsense:
"Adequately to chronicle or minutely to describe the distinguished deeds
of this
race of heroes, which has contributed in almost every age to exalt the
national character and compass the internal prosperity of its native
island, would occupy a volume".

Payne may not have invented the early generations himself - he may have
taken some or all of the fictitious information from _History of the
Noble House of Carteret_ by Arthur Collins, which he cites on p. 67. I
haven't seen this.

Some of the colourful touches are self-evident rubbish, for instance
"The first of this family of whom connected record is given is Guy De
Carteret or Carterai, who was Lord of the Barony of Carteret, in
Normandy, circa a.d. 1000, and who, from his skill
in the chase, was surnamed L'Oiseleur, or the Fowler." If he tried to
chase down birds he would more probably have been known as Guy the
Idiot, unless he was Guy the Winged.

Once again, the genealogy is worthless down to the point where
verifiable sources are cited and needs to be treated with caution from
there on.

The Dumaresq article starts with a slightly more measured tone, "Few
families in Jersey can boast a more lengthened lineage or more
distinguished members than that of Dumaresq" - this is code for "they
paid me but not well enough to have fought at Hastings".

Peter Stewart