Edmund Peverel's wife
gvo...@talktalk.net
that Edmund Peverel married Elizabeth de Lisle around 1328 and they
were the parents of John (dsp) and Margaret m William de la Pole.
However I have seen in several places, including Jim Weber's rootsweb
file where he references to Faris, that Edmund was married to Isabella
Basset d of Ralph Basset of Drayton and his wife Joan de Grey. Does
anyone in the group know what lies behind this assertion?
Geoff V
Tim Powys-Lybbe
I can't find any mention of Edmund Peverel marrying Isabella Bassett in
Faris' 'Plantagenet Ancestry', 2nd Edn. Edmund is mentioned on p. 382
but with no wife.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
gvo...@talktalk.net
You are right. Checking Jim Weber's listing he indeed refers Edmund to
Faris but not Isabella, but this still begs the question of where the
association of Edmund and Isabella arose from. Jim is not alone in
this, several other rootsweb files do so although I am perfectly well
aware of the need to take such Internet postings with a pinch of salt
and also how a single posting can proliferate when others take and use
them as true without researching them properly. My question remains-
is there any reason to connect Isabella Basset with Edmund Peverel?
Geoff V
paju...@bellsouth.net
May I ask if the following is the Edmund Peverell under discussion?
"1369 Edmund Peverel (Peverell) v. Robert la Zouche and Margaret his wife, a messuage, 340 acres of land,10 acres of meadow, 50 acres of pasture, 20 acres of wood, 50s. rent in [Sussex] Westhanyngfeld; to Edmund and his heirs, who undertake to pay to Robert and Margaret 10 marks yearly during the life of Margaret. " FF Sussex.
Thank you,
Pat
>
> From: Tim Powys-Lybbe <t...@powys.org>
> Date: 2007/03/28 Wed AM 09:21:44 EDT
> To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: Edmund Peverel's wife
>
> In message of 24 Mar, gvo...@talktalk.net wrote:
>
> > Looking at previous postings by the group it seems generally accepted
> > that Edmund Peverel married Elizabeth de Lisle around 1328 and they
> > were the parents of John (dsp) and Margaret m William de la Pole.
> > However I have seen in several places, including Jim Weber's rootsweb
> > file where he references to Faris, that Edmund was married to Isabella
> > Basset d of Ralph Basset of Drayton and his wife Joan de Grey. Does
> > anyone in the group know what lies behind this assertion?
>
> I can't find any mention of Edmund Peverel marrying Isabella Bassett in
> Faris' 'Plantagenet Ancestry', 2nd Edn. Edmund is mentioned on p. 382
> but with no wife.
>
> --
> Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
> For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
>
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>
Tim Powys-Lybbe
> May I ask if the following is the Edmund Peverell under discussion?
> "1369 Edmund Peverel (Peverell) v. Robert la Zouche and Margaret his
> wife, a messuage, 340 acres of land,10 acres of meadow, 50 acres of
> pasture, 20 acres of wood, 50s. rent in [Sussex] Westhanyngfeld; to
> Edmund and his heirs, who undertake to pay to Robert and Margaret 10
> marks yearly during the life of Margaret. " FF Sussex.
Doubt it. The Edmund Peverel that I referred to is down as dying bef
1350 in my records and the above was still alive in 1369; he was his
gt-uncle's, Walter de Langton bishop of Coventry, heir in 1321; the land
concerned was in Leics or Northants.
Douglas Richardson
You have stumbled onto two longstanding genealogical problems which
have confused many historians and genealogists over the years.
My research indicates that Edmund Peverel, Knt. (died 12 March 1331),
of Ashby David, Northamptonshire, Coldham (in Elm), Cambridgeshire,
Grimston, Suffolk, etc., married before 1330 Elizabeth de Lisle,
daughter of Robert de Lisle, Knt., 1st Lord Lisle of Rougemont. They
had two children, John and Margaret. In 1334 Edmund's widow,
Elizabeth de Lisle, was cited by the Pope to appear as a witness with
her parents, Robert and Margaret de Lisle, and her grandmother, Alice
de Beauchamp, regarding the matter of the consanguinity which existed
between their kinsman, John de Bohun, Earl of Hereford and Essex, and
his wife, Margaret Basset. Elizabeth was living 28 Jan. 1348.
References:
Baker, Hist. & Antiqs. of Northampton 1 (1822-30): 619-620 (Lisle
pedigree). Papal Regs.: Letters 2 (1895): 398. VCH Bedford 2 (1908):
224. Copinger, Manors of Suffolk 3 (1909): 96-97. Colls. Hist.
Staffs. 1911 (1911): 348-349. Clay, Extinct & Dormant Peerages of the
Northern Counties (1913): 125-126 (sub De Lisle). C.F.R. 1347-1356
(1921): 65. VCH Berkshire 4 (1924): 218. C.P. 8 (1932): 48 (chart),
73 footnote i (sub Lisle). VCH Huntingdon 2 (1932): 322-323. VCH
Northampton 3 (1930): 143-144. VCH Cambridge 4 (1953): 136-137, 180-
182. VCH Shropshire 8 (1968): 1-18. Sutherland, Eyre of
Northamptonshire 1 (Selden Soc. 97) (1983): 224-229 (abstract of a
suit dated 1330-1331 involving a dam on Edmund Peverel's manor at
Coldham). Nottingham Medieval Studies, 35 (1991): 70-76 (re: Bishop
Langton). PRO Documents, SC 8/32/1577 (petition dated c. 1323 from
John de Beaufou to King and council re. grant of wardship and marriage
of Edmund, son and heir of Robert Peverel, to Robert de Lisle); and SC
8/14/675 (petition dated 1327 from Edmund Peverel, kinsman and heir of
Walter de Langton, bishop of Chester to the king and council, stating
that the said Langton gave the manors of Fulbrook, Westhall, and
Swinbrook, Oxfordshire to Giles de Watchesham for life, reserving the
reversion. Giles gave them to Hugh le Despenser the elder, and they
are now in the king's hand by his forfeiture. Edmund requests remedy
so that justice be done to him. Nature of endorsement: He should wait
until Giles is dead) (abstracts of documents available online at
http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search.asp).
Edmund and Elizabeth Peverel's son and heir, John Peverel, was born at
Whitsuntide 1330 (aged 19 in 1349). He married Isabel _____. They
had no issue. He died 15 November 1349. His widow, Isabel, married
(2nd) Robert de Bradeston, and (3rd) Robert de Rigge. She was living
in 1376.
References:
Wrottesley, Staffordshire Suits: Plea Rolls (Colls. Hist. Staffs. 13)
(1892): 92, 126, 134. Cal. IPMs 9 (1916): 164-165. VCH Northampton 4
(1937): 233. Saul Death, Art, and Memory in Medieval England (2001):
327.
Roskell, House of Commons 1386-1421, 1 (1992): 343-344 has carelessly
confused Isabel, wife successively of John Peverel, Robert de
Bradeston, and Robert de Rigge, with a separate and distinct woman,
Isabel de Meynell, wife successively of Thomas de Shirley, Knt., John
de Wodhull, Knt., and Gerard de Braybrooke, Knt. For evidence that
the two Isabel's were different people, see abstracts of suits dated
Hilary 1375, Michaelmas 1375, and Trinity 1376 involving Robert de
Rigge and Isabel, his wife, formerly wife of John Peverel [Reference:
Wrottesley, Staffordshire Suits: Plea Rolls (Colls. Hist. Staffs. 13)
(1892): 92, 126, 134]. Isabel de Meynell is known to have been the
wife of Sir Gerard de Braybrook at the date of these suits.
Isabel de Meynell, wife of Thomas de Shirley, Knt., has been
incorrectly been identified repeatedly in the historical literature as
the sister of Ralph Basset, K.G., 3rd Lord Basset of Drayton (died
1390), whose will names Isabel's son, Hugh de Shirley, as Lord
Basset's "nephew." Isabel de Meynell was actually half-sister to Lord
Basset, being the daughter of Lord Basset's mother, Alice de Audley,
by her 2nd marriage to Hugh de Meynell, Knt. This is proven by the
1423 marriage dispensation between Isabel's descendant, Ralph Shirley,
Esq., and Sir Hugh de Meynell's descendant, Margaret Staunton, which
dispensation states the two parties were related in the 4th degree of
kindred (or, if you prefer, 3rd cousins). The kinship between these
parties was due to their common descent from Sir Hugh de Meynell,
husband of Alice de Audley. For further details of the Peverel,
Lisle, Meynell, and Shirley families, please see my books, Plantagenet
Ancestry (2004) and Magna Carta Ancestry (2005).
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Douglas Richardson
< Douglas is back! So all you "haters" get prepared to do ...
whatever
< it is you do (ineffectually "hate," I guess).
Dear John ~
Yes, I'm back, assuming, of course, that I ever left. I believe it
was the Americian author Mark Twain who said "the stories of my demise
are greatly exaggerated." Times don't change much, do they?
In the meantime, I want to extend a special thanks to you, John, for
your outstanding posts on the American colonists and their occasional
medieval connections. I find your posts thought provoking and
insightful. By all means, please keep them coming.
You produce, John, while others pontificate. 'Nuff said.