CP and Paget error?
Leo van de Pas
For Frances Beauchamp, of Holt I have three sources but have only immediate access to one. Paget in his book on the ancestors of Prince Charles does not give any dates for Frances but does make her a daughter of John, 2nd Lord who died in 1420.
For the husband of Frances, Sir Walter Skull, I have the same three sources, from which I have that he was born ca.1434 in Holt, Worcestershire and died ca.1472 in Holt Castle. Paget does give as 1472 the year for his death, but no year of birth.
This means that _if_ John was the father of Frances, she should have been born about 1420 making her at least 14 years older than her husband.
And so I went to CP Volume II page 46. Here more mysteries are to be encountered. John Beauchamp, 2nd Baron Beauchamp of Kidderminster died in 1420 aged 42 _d.s.p._ however in a footnote tells that he had an only daughter Margaret, aged 20 in 1420, who married (1) John Pauncefort and (2) John Wysham. Did he die without progeny? Or did daughter Margaret die before him aged 20 already married twice? Or was she illegitimate, in any case she is still progeny.
Can anyone shine any light on this? I think I can disconnect Frances from her alleged father.
With many thanks
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
mvernon...@yahoo.co.uk
Dear Leo,
You can access the relevant part of VCH Worcs III at
www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=43144#3 , which gives that
John (d.1420) did have the daughter Margaret, and Walter Skull (d.1472)
was her third husband. It doesn't specify who fathered Margaret's own
children who succeeded her, but two of them married members of the
Croft family; however, there is no mention of the Joyce who married Sir
Edward Croft, so she may have been a child of Sir Walter by another
marriage. Possibly this other wife was called Frances and the two wives
were amalgamated in the visitation, which may have been Paget's source,
but that's a guess. As you say, the birthdate given for Walter Skull is
probably too late, but the marriage may have been childless and based
more on property, so who knows; it seems unlikely though that he was
actually born at Holt, as he only had that manor by marriage to the
Beauchamp heiress.
The ODNB gives Sir Edward Croft's father, Sir Richard Croft, as
1429/30-1509; Walter Skull was Richard's guardian. The entry goes on to
say "Sir Walter Skull, who, after the death of his own son, arranged a
series of marriages to convey his property and a large part of that of
his stepdaughters to the Crofts."
Sir Richard's younger brother (or half brother, his mother apparently
being Isabella, rather than Margaret Walwyn), Thomas Croft
(c.1435-1488), also has an entry, which states "In 1472 Thomas married
Elizabeth (d.1500), the daughter (probably of her mother's second
marriage, to John Wysham) and one of three coheiresses of Margaret
Beauchamp (d.1452x6), who had inherited the estate of her father, Sir
John Beauchamp, of Holt, Worcestershire (d.1420). The marriage was
probably arranged by Walter Skull, Margaret's last husband, and former
guardian of the Crofts." Another Croft brother, John, is mentioned in
this entry, who may be the man of that name who also married one of the
Beauchamp coheiresses.
Sir Edward Croft's father's ODNB entry has a marriage date of about
1461, the bride's previous husband having died April-June 1460;
assuming Edward's wife was not significantly older than him, and given
Margaret Beauchamp's death in the mid-1450s, Joyce Skull's mother (who
may or may not have been called Frances) was presumably Walter Skull's
subsequent wife.
-Matthew
Douglas Richardson
It appears you are using some unreliable secondary sources again.
Sir John Beauchamp, 2nd Lord Beauchamo of Kidderminster, had one
daughter and heiress, Margaret. Margaret Beauchamp was married three
times: John Pauncefoot, Sir John Wysham, and Sir Walter Skulle. She
had three daughters by her Wysham marriage, Alice, Joan, and Elizabeth.
She also had one son, Thomas, by her Skulle marriage. Following
Margaret's death, her widower, Sir Walter Skulle, married (2nd) Frances
Winchecombe, widow of William Mulle (or Mille). They were the parents
of your Joyce Skulle, who married Edward Croft.
I've copied below the account of these families taken from my book,
Magna Carta Ancestry (2005). I've included all of my references. I
especially recommend you read the article in Historical Research, 68
(1995): 241-265.
I have a passing interest in this matter as I descend from the Mulle or
Mulle family through my immigrant ancestress, Agnes (Harris) (Spencer)
Edwards, of Connecticut.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
BEAUCHAMP FAMILY
9. ISABEL FERRERS, married before 1397 JOHN BEAUCHAMP, Knt., of
Kidderminster and Holt, Worcestershire, and Ardley, South Weston, and
Wigginton, Oxfordshire, Shotteswell, Warwickshire, etc., Escheator of
Worcestershire, Knight of the Shire for Worcestershire, son and heir of
John Beauchamp, Knt., 1st Lord Beauchamp of Kidderminster, Esquire of
the King's Chamber, Justice of North Wales, Steward of the Household
to King Richard II, by Joan, daughter and heiress of Robert Fitz Wyth.
He was born 6 Jan. 1377, and was godson of King Richard II of England.
They had one daughter, Margaret. By the reversal of the proceedings of
the Merciless Parliament in 1398, he became 2nd Lord Beauchamp of
Kidderminster. He accompanied the King into Ireland the following
year. On the accession of King Henry IV in 1399, his father's
attainder was reaffirmed and his honours were again forfeited. He
married (2nd) about 1410 Alice _____. SIR JOHN BEAUCHAMP died 27
August 1420. His widow, Alice, died before 1428.
References:
Nash, Colls. for the Hist. of Worcestershire 1 (1781): 593-594, 601.
C.P. 2 (1912): 46 (sub Beauchamp). VCH Worcester 3 (1913): 403-405
(arms of Beauchamp of Kidderminster: Gules a fesse between six martlets
or). Feudal Aids 4 (1906): 190. VCH Warwick 5 (1949): 148; 6 (1951):
46. VCH Oxford 6 (1959): 9; 8 (1964): 254-255; 9 (1969): 161. Cal.
Inqs. Misc. 6 (1963): 159-162 ("... John son and heir of the said
John [Beauchamp of Holt], being still a minor in the earl's ward,
married the sister of lord de Ferrers of Groby without the earl's
license"), 163-164. Roskell et al., House of Commons 1386-1421 2
(1992): 153-154 (biog. of Sir John Beauchamp).
10. MARGARET BEAUCHAMP, daughter and heiress, born about 1400. She
married (1st) JOHN PAUNCEFOOT (died before 1420). She married (2nd)
before 1422 JOHN WYSHAM (or WISHAM), Knt., of Churchill, Shelsley
Beauchamp, Woodmanton (in Clifton upon Teme), and Wolverton (in
Stoulton), Worcestershire, and, in right of his wife, of Holt,
Worcestershire, Ardley, South Weston, and Wigginton, Oxfordshire, and
Bubbenhall, Warwickshire, son and heir of William Wysham, Knt., of
Churchill, Shelsley Beauchamp, etc., Worcestershire, by his wife,
Margaret. They had three daughters, Alice, Joan (wife of _____
Westcote and John Croft), and Elizabeth (wife of Thomas Croft and
Nicholas Crowmer). He was living in 1434. She married (3rd) before
1437 (as his 1st wife) WALTER SKULLE, Knt., of Hereford and London,
attorney, Keeper of the King's Wardrobe, Treasurer of the Household,
Knight of the Shire for Worcestershire, Sheriff of Herefordshire, of
Oxfordshire and Berkshire, and of Worcestershire. They had one son,
Thomas. Sir Walter married (2nd) before 1464 Frances Winchcombe, widow
of William Mulle (or Mille), of Harescombe, Gloucestershire, and
Allensmore and Avenbury, Herefordshire, and daughter and heiress of
Edmond Winchcombe. They had one daughter, Joyce (wife of Edward
Croft). He died in 1482. His widow, Frances, left a will proved in
1483 (P.C.C. 7 Logge).
References:
Nash, Colls. for the Hist. of Worcestershire 1 (1781): 593-594, 601;
2 (1782): 352-353. Chitting & Phillipot, Vis. of Gloucester 1623,
1569 & 1582-3 (H.S.P. 21) (1885): 215-217 (Myll pedigree: "Sr
Will'm Myll Knight. = Frances dau. and one of the heirs to Edmond
Winchcombe."). C.P.R. 1461-1467 (1897): 380, 388, 575. C.P.R.
1467-1477 (1900): 636. C.P.R. 1476-1485 (1901): 578 (1901).
C.P.R. 1476-1485 (1901): 578. Feudal Aids 5 (1908): 319, 325, 329,
333. C.P.R. 1441-1446 (1908): 481. C.P.R. 1452-1461 (1910): 681.
C.P. 2 (1912): 46 (sub Beauchamp). VCH Worcester 3 (1913): 298,
403-404, 534-535; 4 (1924): 251, 329, 332. Wedgwood, Hist. of
Parliament 1 (1936): 773-774 (biog. of Sir Walter Skulle). VCH
Oxford 6 (1959): 9; 8 (1964): 254-255; 9 (1969): 161-162, 166. VCH
Warwick 5 (1949): 148; 6 (1951): 46. Hist. Research, 68 (1995):
241-265.
John Higgins
specific reference for once, rather than following the practice of his books
in simply spewing out a bunch of marginally related references.
But the title of the thread and the opening comment are a not-so-subtle, and
unwarranted, backhanded slam of Leo. Leo properly noted the inadequacy of
the sources he had and was asking for information. To slam him for that is
a strange way of "making friends". But as was mentioned a day or two ago,
"you say one thing and act completely differently. There is a name for
that."
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Tony Ingham
The Master of Secondary Sources, all of which are potentially
unreliable, has the gall to criticize Leo.
Thought I had seen every thing!
Tony Ingham
Tim Powys-Lybbe
> Cannot help but reply to this.
>
> The Master of Secondary Sources, all of which are potentially
> unreliable, has the gall to criticize Leo.
>
> Thought I had seen every thing!
The chap is proved to be a hypocrite and leopards don't change their
spots.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
WJho...@aol.com
mvernon...@yahoo.co.uk writes:
<< Sir Edward Croft's father's ODNB entry has a marriage date of about
1461, the bride's previous husband having died April-June 1460;
assuming Edward's wife was not significantly older than him, and given
Margaret Beauchamp's death in the mid-1450s, Joyce Skull's mother (who
may or may not have been called Frances) was presumably Walter Skull's
subsequent wife. >>
Can you specify who the previous husband of Eleanor Cornwall of Burford was ?
Thanks
Will Johnson
mvernon...@yahoo.co.uk
Sure- it was Sir Hugh Mortimer of Kyre, Worcs., according to the same
biog; there is also a mention of Sir Richard Croft's stepson John
Mortimer fighting for Henry Tudor at Bosworth. Eleanor's death date is
given as 1519.
willac...@yahoo.co.uk
> from which I have that he was born ca.1434 in Holt, Worcestershire and died
> ca.1472 in Holt Castle. Paget does give as 1472 the year for his death, but
> no year of birth.
>
> This means that _if_ John was the father of Frances, she should have been
> born about 1420 making her at least 14 years older than her husband.
One Walter Skull died in 1472:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=43144#n46
(note 46)
Another Walter, who was presumably his son and heir, died in 1482:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CDUQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.girders.net%2FSc%2FSculle%2C%2520Sir%2520Walter%2C%2520%28d.1482%29.doc&ei=oS2OUdIajak6usyA0As&usg=AFQjCNHWyJqhtVjKJ4N3VKfmTbLa8XBK_A&bvm=bv.46340616,d.ZWU
If the above is correct, the Skull family pedigree can be reconstructed as follows:
Walter SKULL, of Hereford and London, married first unknown (died before 1437), and had issue,
A1 Hugh SKULL, Constable of Cardigan Castle with his father Walter 1449 (probably dead by 1450 when his father resumed office alone).
A2 Jane SKULL, married (probably as his second wife) William Acton, of Ombersley, Worcestershire, leaving issue.
A3 Walter SKULL, married before 1464 Frances Winchcombe (died before 29 July 1483), daughter of Edmond Winchcombe and his wife Alice Fastolf, and died before 2 December 1482, having had issue,
B1 Joyce SKULL, married Edward Croft (died 1547), leaving issue.
(cont) Walter SKULL, married second Margaret Beauchamp, and died (before October) 1472, having had issue,
A4 Thomas SKULL, of Wigginton, born after 1434, married as her first husband Anne Stafford, daughter of Sir Humphrey Stafford and his wife Eleanor Aylesbury, and died without issue before 1459.
Best wishes,
William Acton