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Parentage of Llywelyn ap Iorwerth, Prince of North Wales [died 1240]
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Douglas Richardson
Feb 16, 2017, 1:12:56 PM2/16/17
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Dear Newsgroup ~
The historical literature seems to be quite deficient regarding Iorwerth Drwyndwn ap Owain Gwynedd and his wife, Marared (or Margery) verch Madod, which couple are the parents of the Llywelyn ap Iorwerth, the illustrious Prince of North Wales [died 1240].
For interest's sake, I've copied below my current file account of this couple based on my original research. Included in this discussion is new information regarding Wion Fitz Ione (or Fitz Jonas), the step-father of Llywelyn ap Iorwerth. Comments are invited.
Here is a list of the numerous 17th Century New World immigrants that descend from Llywelyn ap Iorwerth and his wife, Joan, illegitimate daughter of King John of England:
Robert Abell, Dannett Abney, Elizabeth Alsop, Samuel Argall, William Asfordby, Barbara Aubrey, John Barclay, Charles Barham, Charles Barnes, Henry, Thomas & William Batte, Anne Baynton, Marmaduke Beckwith, Dorothy Beresford, Richard & William Bernard, John Bevan, Essex Beville, William Bladen, George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Joseph Bolles, Thomas Booth, Elizabeth Bosvile, Mary Bourchier, George, Giles & Robert Brent, Edward Bromfield, Stephen Bull, Charles Calvert, Edward Carleton, Kenelm Cheseldine, Grace Chetwode, Jeremy Clarke, James & Norton Claypoole, St. Leger Codd, Henry Corbin, Elizabeth Covert, Elizabeth & Thomas Coytemore, William Crymes, James Cudworth, Francis Dade, Humphrey Davie, Frances, Jane & Katherine Deighton, Edward Digges, Robert Drake, Rowland Ellis, William Farrer, John Fenwick, Henry Filmer, John Fisher, Henry Fleete, Edward Foliot, Thomas Gerard, William Goddard, Muriel Gurdon, Elizabeth & John Harleston, Warham Horsmanden, Patrick Houston, Edward Howell, Anne Humphrey, Daniel & John Humphrey, Edmund Jennings, Edmund, Edward, Matthew & Richard Kempe, Judith Knapp, Mary Launce, Hannah, Samuel & Sarah Levis, Thomas Ligon, Nathaniel Littleton, Thomas Lloyd, Anne Lovelace, Henry, Jane & Nicholas Lowe, Percival Lowell, Gabriel, Roger & Sarah Ludlow, Thomas Lunsford, Agnes Mackworth, Roger & Thomas Mallory, Anne, Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Oliver Manwaring, Anne & Katherine Marbury, Elizabeth Marshall, Anne Mauleverer, Richard More, Joseph & Mary Need, John and Margaret Nelson, Philip & Thomas Nelson, Ellen Newton, Elizabeth, Joshua, & Rebecca Owen, Thomas Owsley, John Oxenbridge, Richard Palgrave, Herbert Pelham, Robert Peyton, William & Elizabeth Pole, Henry & William Randolph, George Reade, William Rodney, Thomas Rudyard, Katherine Saint Leger, Richard Saltonstall, William Skepper, Diana & Grey Skipwith, Mary Johanna Somerset, John Stockman, John Throckmorton, Samuel & William Torrey, Margaret Touteville, John & Lawrence Washington, Olive Welby, John West, Mary Wolseley, Frances & Sarah Woodward, Hawte Wyatt, Amy Wyllys.
Do you descend from Llywelyn ap Iorwerth, Prince of North Wales? If so, perhaps you would be kind enough to post your line of descent from this great man on the newsgroup down to your New World immigrant.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + +
IORWERTH DRWYNDWN AB OWAIN GWYNEDD, lord of Arfon, Ardudwy, and Nant Conwy, son by his father’s 1st marriage. He married MARARED (or MARGERY) VERCH MADOG, daughter of Madog ap Maredudd (died 1160), Prince of Powys Fadog, by his 1st wife, Susanna, daughter of Gruffudd ap Cynan ap Iago, King of Gwynnedd. They had one son, Llywelyn ap Iorwerth [Prince of North Wales, afterwards Prince of Aberffraw, Lord of Snowdon]. Although he remained in Gwynedd, Iorwerth seems to have played little or no part in the struggle for the succession to his father. At his death of unknown date, he was buried in Penmachno, Carnarvonshire. His widow, Marared (or Margery), married (2nd) before 1195 WION FITZ IONE (or FITZ JONAS), son of Jonas (or Ionas) ap Gronwy de Powis (died 1174–5), of Llannerch Banna, Flintshire and Wrockwardine, Shropshire. He and his brother, Roger de Powis, held Whittington, Shropshire and Overton, Flintshire by authority and grant of King Henry II, and by the serjeantry or the service of bearing the king’s mandates throughout Wales. In or about 1195 he and his wife, Margery, granted Combermere Abbey, Cheshire the tithe of all the fish and fishery arising from the weirs, nets, or devices of whatever kind throughout the river Dee on either bank throughout the lordship of Overton, and the tithe of all the toll from the mill of Overton, Flintshire. In 1196 he and his cousin, Meurich de Powis, were deputed to take custody of Denbigh Castle by King Richard I. Sometime in the period, c.1197–1205, Hubert, Archbishop of Canterbury ordered an inquest into the consanguinity between and the legitimacy of the marriage of M[arared], mother of Llywelyn, Prince of North Wales, and Wion Fitz Ione, which inquest was appealed by Marared’s clerk. In 1203, as “Wianus Wallensis,” he was assessed 6 marks to the fifth Scutage of King John. In the period, 1205–11, he witnessed two charters of his step-son, Prince Llywelyn, granting Shropshire lands to Haughmond Abbey, Shropshire. He had the king’s mandate for seven librates of land in Wellington, Shropshire. He subsequently received an annual payment in connection to Wellington, Shropshire from 1194 through May 1210. WION FITZ IONE presumably died early in 1210, as about Mid-summer 1210, King John granted a fee-farm of Wellington, Shropshire to Thomas de Erdington. In 1221 Giles de Erdington, son and heir of Thomas de Erdington, sued Ellen, daughter of Llewellyn [Prince of North Wales], regarding the manor of Wellington, Shropshire; Ellen alleged she had gift of the manor by a certain Wyandus [Wian Fitz Jonas is meant], to whom King Henry III and his council had committed it.
References:
Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum 5 (1825): 324–325 (undated charter of Wion Fitz Ione [Wyon filius Jonæ] and Lady Margery verch Madoc [Margeriæ filiæ Madoci] to Combermere Abbey, Cheshire; charter granted for the the health of his soul and those of his father, Jonas [Jonae] and Madog; charter witnessed by lady Margery verch Madog [domina Margeria filia Madoci] and his brother, David). Wright, Hist. of Fulk Fitz Warine (1855): 200. Eyton, Antiqs. of Shropshire 9 (1859): 43. Williams, Brut y Tywysogion, or Chronicle of the Princes of Wales (Rolls Ser.) (1860). Lloyd, Hist. of the Princes, the Lords Marcher, & the Ancient Nobility of Powys Fadog 1 (1881): 111–126. D.N.B. 35 (1893): 301–302 (biog. of Madog ap Maredudd); 12 (1909): 7–13 (biog. of Llywelyn ab Iorwerth: “About 1176 he [Iorwerth] was expelled from Gweynedd by his half-brother, Davydd ab Owain, who thus became, in name at least, lord of Gwynedd. But Iorwerth and his other brothers continued to molest their successful rival, whose real dominions seldom extended far beyond the vale of Clwyd. Iorwerth, according to Welsh genealogists, married Marred, daughter of Madog ab Maredudd, prince of Powys, but there is documentary evidence that the mother of Llywelyn was a member of the boirder family of Corbet (Eyton, Shropshire, vi. 160; Monasticon, vi. 497). Eyton says it was common for Welsh genealogists to suppress English marriages.”). Rpt. of MSS in Various Colls. 1 (Hist. MSS Comm.) (1901): 240–241 (transcript of letter dated c.1197–1205 by Robert, Bishop of Bangor and the abbots of Buildwas, Cwmhir, and Haughmond to Hubert, Archbishop of Canterbury regarding their attempt to hold an inquest into the consanguinity and legitimacy of the marriage between M[arared], mother of Llywelyn, Prince of North Wales, and W. son of Ione [Wion Fitz Ione]). Barbier, Age of Owain Gwynedd (1908): 54, 56, 91 footnote 1, 133–134 (App. No. III) (author states the death of Owain Gwynedd “must be assigned to the month of November, 1170”). Trans. Shropshire Arch. & Natural Hist. Soc. 4th Ser. 1 (1911): 195. Bartrum, Early Welsh Genealogical Tracts (1966): 38 (Mostyn MS. 117: “… Ioruerth m. Owein m. Gruffyd m. Kynan …”), 47 (Jesus College MS. 20: “… Iorwoerth m. Ewein Gwyned m. Gruffud m. Cynan.”; “Llywelyn m. Marereda merch Madawe m. Maredud.”), 95 (Archau Brenhinoedd a Thywysogion Cymru: “… Llywelyn ap Iorwerth drwyndwn m. Owein Gwynedd m. Gruffudd m. Kynan …”; “Mam Llywelyn ap Iorwerth: Marvred verch Madawg ap Meredydd ap Bleddin …”), 96–97 (Archau Brenhinoedd a Thywysogion Cymru: “Ioruerth a Maelgwn a Gwenlliant, mam Wenwynwyn ap Owain Kyveiliawg, plant Owain Gwynedd. Ai mam oedd Wladus verch Llywarch ap Tryhaearn ap Kyradawc …”). Meisel, Barons of the Welsh Frontier (1980): 9 (“Sometime between 1199 and 1211, Llewellyn stated that a certain Walter Corbet was his relation and friend and that Walter was the brother of William Corbet, who was Llewellyn’s uncle (‘frater Willielmi Corbet avunculi mei’). Since Llewellyn’s father was certainly Iorwerth Drwyndwn, his mother must have been a Corbet and the sister of William and Walter.”). Bartrum, Welsh Gens. 300–1400 (1980) [Gruffudd ap Cynan 3, 4 (“Iorwerth Drwyndwn ab Owain Gwynedd = Margred f. Madog Bl. ap C. 3”)], Tudur Trefor 8 (“Gwion l[iving] 1196”). Adams, Select Cases from Eccl. Courts of Canterbury (Selden Soc. 95) (1981): Introduction: App. I, 107 (summary of letter dated c.1197–1205 by Robert, Bishop of Bangor and the abbots of Buildwas, Cwmhir, and Haughmond to Hubert, Archbishop of Canterbury regarding their attempt to hold an inquest into the consanguinity and legitimacy of the marriage between M[arared], mother of Llywelyn, Prince of North Wales, and W. son of Ione [Wion Fitz Ione]). Rees, Cartulary of Haughmond Abbey (1985): 137, 216. Fryde, Handbook of British Chron. (1986): 51, 54. Welsh Hist. Rev. 21 (2002): 1–23; 24 (2008): 1–28. Pryce, Acts of Welsh Rulers, 1120–1283 (2005): 24–25, 391 (“The references to Walter Corbet as Llywelyn’s cognatus and to his brother William Corbet as Llywelyn’s uncle may indicate that the prince’s mother Marared married a Corbet after the death of Llywelyn’s father Iorwerth (HW, ii. 587, n. 62; cf. Pryce, Native Law, 85), 414, 695. Moore, Welsh Wars of Independence (2007). Ashley, Mammoth Book of British Kings & Queens (2012). Justices Itinerant, JUST 1/733A, image 841d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/JUST1/JUST1no733A/bJUST1no733dorses/IMG_0841.htm).
The historical literature seems to be quite deficient regarding Iorwerth Drwyndwn ap Owain Gwynedd and his wife, Marared (or Margery) verch Madod, which couple are the parents of the Llywelyn ap Iorwerth, the illustrious Prince of North Wales [died 1240].
For interest's sake, I've copied below my current file account of this couple based on my original research. Included in this discussion is new information regarding Wion Fitz Ione (or Fitz Jonas), the step-father of Llywelyn ap Iorwerth. Comments are invited.
Here is a list of the numerous 17th Century New World immigrants that descend from Llywelyn ap Iorwerth and his wife, Joan, illegitimate daughter of King John of England:
Robert Abell, Dannett Abney, Elizabeth Alsop, Samuel Argall, William Asfordby, Barbara Aubrey, John Barclay, Charles Barham, Charles Barnes, Henry, Thomas & William Batte, Anne Baynton, Marmaduke Beckwith, Dorothy Beresford, Richard & William Bernard, John Bevan, Essex Beville, William Bladen, George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Joseph Bolles, Thomas Booth, Elizabeth Bosvile, Mary Bourchier, George, Giles & Robert Brent, Edward Bromfield, Stephen Bull, Charles Calvert, Edward Carleton, Kenelm Cheseldine, Grace Chetwode, Jeremy Clarke, James & Norton Claypoole, St. Leger Codd, Henry Corbin, Elizabeth Covert, Elizabeth & Thomas Coytemore, William Crymes, James Cudworth, Francis Dade, Humphrey Davie, Frances, Jane & Katherine Deighton, Edward Digges, Robert Drake, Rowland Ellis, William Farrer, John Fenwick, Henry Filmer, John Fisher, Henry Fleete, Edward Foliot, Thomas Gerard, William Goddard, Muriel Gurdon, Elizabeth & John Harleston, Warham Horsmanden, Patrick Houston, Edward Howell, Anne Humphrey, Daniel & John Humphrey, Edmund Jennings, Edmund, Edward, Matthew & Richard Kempe, Judith Knapp, Mary Launce, Hannah, Samuel & Sarah Levis, Thomas Ligon, Nathaniel Littleton, Thomas Lloyd, Anne Lovelace, Henry, Jane & Nicholas Lowe, Percival Lowell, Gabriel, Roger & Sarah Ludlow, Thomas Lunsford, Agnes Mackworth, Roger & Thomas Mallory, Anne, Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Oliver Manwaring, Anne & Katherine Marbury, Elizabeth Marshall, Anne Mauleverer, Richard More, Joseph & Mary Need, John and Margaret Nelson, Philip & Thomas Nelson, Ellen Newton, Elizabeth, Joshua, & Rebecca Owen, Thomas Owsley, John Oxenbridge, Richard Palgrave, Herbert Pelham, Robert Peyton, William & Elizabeth Pole, Henry & William Randolph, George Reade, William Rodney, Thomas Rudyard, Katherine Saint Leger, Richard Saltonstall, William Skepper, Diana & Grey Skipwith, Mary Johanna Somerset, John Stockman, John Throckmorton, Samuel & William Torrey, Margaret Touteville, John & Lawrence Washington, Olive Welby, John West, Mary Wolseley, Frances & Sarah Woodward, Hawte Wyatt, Amy Wyllys.
Do you descend from Llywelyn ap Iorwerth, Prince of North Wales? If so, perhaps you would be kind enough to post your line of descent from this great man on the newsgroup down to your New World immigrant.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + +
IORWERTH DRWYNDWN AB OWAIN GWYNEDD, lord of Arfon, Ardudwy, and Nant Conwy, son by his father’s 1st marriage. He married MARARED (or MARGERY) VERCH MADOG, daughter of Madog ap Maredudd (died 1160), Prince of Powys Fadog, by his 1st wife, Susanna, daughter of Gruffudd ap Cynan ap Iago, King of Gwynnedd. They had one son, Llywelyn ap Iorwerth [Prince of North Wales, afterwards Prince of Aberffraw, Lord of Snowdon]. Although he remained in Gwynedd, Iorwerth seems to have played little or no part in the struggle for the succession to his father. At his death of unknown date, he was buried in Penmachno, Carnarvonshire. His widow, Marared (or Margery), married (2nd) before 1195 WION FITZ IONE (or FITZ JONAS), son of Jonas (or Ionas) ap Gronwy de Powis (died 1174–5), of Llannerch Banna, Flintshire and Wrockwardine, Shropshire. He and his brother, Roger de Powis, held Whittington, Shropshire and Overton, Flintshire by authority and grant of King Henry II, and by the serjeantry or the service of bearing the king’s mandates throughout Wales. In or about 1195 he and his wife, Margery, granted Combermere Abbey, Cheshire the tithe of all the fish and fishery arising from the weirs, nets, or devices of whatever kind throughout the river Dee on either bank throughout the lordship of Overton, and the tithe of all the toll from the mill of Overton, Flintshire. In 1196 he and his cousin, Meurich de Powis, were deputed to take custody of Denbigh Castle by King Richard I. Sometime in the period, c.1197–1205, Hubert, Archbishop of Canterbury ordered an inquest into the consanguinity between and the legitimacy of the marriage of M[arared], mother of Llywelyn, Prince of North Wales, and Wion Fitz Ione, which inquest was appealed by Marared’s clerk. In 1203, as “Wianus Wallensis,” he was assessed 6 marks to the fifth Scutage of King John. In the period, 1205–11, he witnessed two charters of his step-son, Prince Llywelyn, granting Shropshire lands to Haughmond Abbey, Shropshire. He had the king’s mandate for seven librates of land in Wellington, Shropshire. He subsequently received an annual payment in connection to Wellington, Shropshire from 1194 through May 1210. WION FITZ IONE presumably died early in 1210, as about Mid-summer 1210, King John granted a fee-farm of Wellington, Shropshire to Thomas de Erdington. In 1221 Giles de Erdington, son and heir of Thomas de Erdington, sued Ellen, daughter of Llewellyn [Prince of North Wales], regarding the manor of Wellington, Shropshire; Ellen alleged she had gift of the manor by a certain Wyandus [Wian Fitz Jonas is meant], to whom King Henry III and his council had committed it.
References:
Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum 5 (1825): 324–325 (undated charter of Wion Fitz Ione [Wyon filius Jonæ] and Lady Margery verch Madoc [Margeriæ filiæ Madoci] to Combermere Abbey, Cheshire; charter granted for the the health of his soul and those of his father, Jonas [Jonae] and Madog; charter witnessed by lady Margery verch Madog [domina Margeria filia Madoci] and his brother, David). Wright, Hist. of Fulk Fitz Warine (1855): 200. Eyton, Antiqs. of Shropshire 9 (1859): 43. Williams, Brut y Tywysogion, or Chronicle of the Princes of Wales (Rolls Ser.) (1860). Lloyd, Hist. of the Princes, the Lords Marcher, & the Ancient Nobility of Powys Fadog 1 (1881): 111–126. D.N.B. 35 (1893): 301–302 (biog. of Madog ap Maredudd); 12 (1909): 7–13 (biog. of Llywelyn ab Iorwerth: “About 1176 he [Iorwerth] was expelled from Gweynedd by his half-brother, Davydd ab Owain, who thus became, in name at least, lord of Gwynedd. But Iorwerth and his other brothers continued to molest their successful rival, whose real dominions seldom extended far beyond the vale of Clwyd. Iorwerth, according to Welsh genealogists, married Marred, daughter of Madog ab Maredudd, prince of Powys, but there is documentary evidence that the mother of Llywelyn was a member of the boirder family of Corbet (Eyton, Shropshire, vi. 160; Monasticon, vi. 497). Eyton says it was common for Welsh genealogists to suppress English marriages.”). Rpt. of MSS in Various Colls. 1 (Hist. MSS Comm.) (1901): 240–241 (transcript of letter dated c.1197–1205 by Robert, Bishop of Bangor and the abbots of Buildwas, Cwmhir, and Haughmond to Hubert, Archbishop of Canterbury regarding their attempt to hold an inquest into the consanguinity and legitimacy of the marriage between M[arared], mother of Llywelyn, Prince of North Wales, and W. son of Ione [Wion Fitz Ione]). Barbier, Age of Owain Gwynedd (1908): 54, 56, 91 footnote 1, 133–134 (App. No. III) (author states the death of Owain Gwynedd “must be assigned to the month of November, 1170”). Trans. Shropshire Arch. & Natural Hist. Soc. 4th Ser. 1 (1911): 195. Bartrum, Early Welsh Genealogical Tracts (1966): 38 (Mostyn MS. 117: “… Ioruerth m. Owein m. Gruffyd m. Kynan …”), 47 (Jesus College MS. 20: “… Iorwoerth m. Ewein Gwyned m. Gruffud m. Cynan.”; “Llywelyn m. Marereda merch Madawe m. Maredud.”), 95 (Archau Brenhinoedd a Thywysogion Cymru: “… Llywelyn ap Iorwerth drwyndwn m. Owein Gwynedd m. Gruffudd m. Kynan …”; “Mam Llywelyn ap Iorwerth: Marvred verch Madawg ap Meredydd ap Bleddin …”), 96–97 (Archau Brenhinoedd a Thywysogion Cymru: “Ioruerth a Maelgwn a Gwenlliant, mam Wenwynwyn ap Owain Kyveiliawg, plant Owain Gwynedd. Ai mam oedd Wladus verch Llywarch ap Tryhaearn ap Kyradawc …”). Meisel, Barons of the Welsh Frontier (1980): 9 (“Sometime between 1199 and 1211, Llewellyn stated that a certain Walter Corbet was his relation and friend and that Walter was the brother of William Corbet, who was Llewellyn’s uncle (‘frater Willielmi Corbet avunculi mei’). Since Llewellyn’s father was certainly Iorwerth Drwyndwn, his mother must have been a Corbet and the sister of William and Walter.”). Bartrum, Welsh Gens. 300–1400 (1980) [Gruffudd ap Cynan 3, 4 (“Iorwerth Drwyndwn ab Owain Gwynedd = Margred f. Madog Bl. ap C. 3”)], Tudur Trefor 8 (“Gwion l[iving] 1196”). Adams, Select Cases from Eccl. Courts of Canterbury (Selden Soc. 95) (1981): Introduction: App. I, 107 (summary of letter dated c.1197–1205 by Robert, Bishop of Bangor and the abbots of Buildwas, Cwmhir, and Haughmond to Hubert, Archbishop of Canterbury regarding their attempt to hold an inquest into the consanguinity and legitimacy of the marriage between M[arared], mother of Llywelyn, Prince of North Wales, and W. son of Ione [Wion Fitz Ione]). Rees, Cartulary of Haughmond Abbey (1985): 137, 216. Fryde, Handbook of British Chron. (1986): 51, 54. Welsh Hist. Rev. 21 (2002): 1–23; 24 (2008): 1–28. Pryce, Acts of Welsh Rulers, 1120–1283 (2005): 24–25, 391 (“The references to Walter Corbet as Llywelyn’s cognatus and to his brother William Corbet as Llywelyn’s uncle may indicate that the prince’s mother Marared married a Corbet after the death of Llywelyn’s father Iorwerth (HW, ii. 587, n. 62; cf. Pryce, Native Law, 85), 414, 695. Moore, Welsh Wars of Independence (2007). Ashley, Mammoth Book of British Kings & Queens (2012). Justices Itinerant, JUST 1/733A, image 841d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/JUST1/JUST1no733A/bJUST1no733dorses/IMG_0841.htm).
mk
Feb 16, 2017, 2:02:22 PM2/16/17
to Douglas Richardson, GenMedieval
would you be interested in a line that is not new world?
On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 1:12 PM, Douglas Richardson <royala...@msn.com>
wrote:
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 1:12 PM, Douglas Richardson <royala...@msn.com>
wrote:
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Jan Wolfe
Feb 16, 2017, 4:45:26 PM2/16/17
to
On Thursday, February 16, 2017 at 1:12:56 PM UTC-5, Douglas Richardson wrote:
...
Thanks for sharing your research about Llywelyn's parents, Douglas. My New World immigrant descendant of Llywelyn ap Iorwerth arrived in Montreal in the early 1830s so may not fit your interest in seventeenth century immigrants. I am always interested and pleased to receive corrections, comments, and sources, so here is the line:
Iorwerth Drwyndwn ap Owain Gwynedd = Marared (or Margery) verch Madog
Llywelyn ap Iorwerth = Joan Plantagenet
Margaret ferch Llywelyn = John de Braose
William de Braose = Mary de Ros
Peter de Braose = Agnes Clifford (who were her parents?)
Peter de Braose = Joan Howard
Beatrice de Braose = Hugh Shirley
Ralph Shirley = Joan Basset
Beatrice Shirley = John Brome
Nicholas Brome = Elizabeth Arundel
Constance Brome = Edward Ferrers
Anne Ferrers = Valentine Knightley
Richard Knightley = Mary Fermor
Mary Knightley = Thomas Barnardiston
Thomas Barnardiston = Anne Polsted
Samuel Barnardiston = Jane Adams
John Barnardiston = Miriam Saunders
Joseph Barnardiston = Frances Harris
Mary Barnardiston = Samuel Howes
Elizabeth Howes = John Joseph Marshall
Mary Ann Marshall = Charles William Meakins (immigrants to Montreal, early 1830s)
Barnardiston and Knightley were strong supporters of the Puritans. It seems surprising that none of their descendants have been found among the seventeenth century immigrants to New England.
...
> Do you descend from Llywelyn ap Iorwerth, Prince of North Wales? If so, perhaps you would be kind enough to post your line of descent from this great man on the newsgroup down to your New World immigrant.
...
Thanks for sharing your research about Llywelyn's parents, Douglas. My New World immigrant descendant of Llywelyn ap Iorwerth arrived in Montreal in the early 1830s so may not fit your interest in seventeenth century immigrants. I am always interested and pleased to receive corrections, comments, and sources, so here is the line:
Iorwerth Drwyndwn ap Owain Gwynedd = Marared (or Margery) verch Madog
Llywelyn ap Iorwerth = Joan Plantagenet
Margaret ferch Llywelyn = John de Braose
William de Braose = Mary de Ros
Peter de Braose = Agnes Clifford (who were her parents?)
Peter de Braose = Joan Howard
Beatrice de Braose = Hugh Shirley
Ralph Shirley = Joan Basset
Beatrice Shirley = John Brome
Nicholas Brome = Elizabeth Arundel
Constance Brome = Edward Ferrers
Anne Ferrers = Valentine Knightley
Richard Knightley = Mary Fermor
Mary Knightley = Thomas Barnardiston
Thomas Barnardiston = Anne Polsted
Samuel Barnardiston = Jane Adams
John Barnardiston = Miriam Saunders
Joseph Barnardiston = Frances Harris
Mary Barnardiston = Samuel Howes
Elizabeth Howes = John Joseph Marshall
Mary Ann Marshall = Charles William Meakins (immigrants to Montreal, early 1830s)
Barnardiston and Knightley were strong supporters of the Puritans. It seems surprising that none of their descendants have been found among the seventeenth century immigrants to New England.
Douglas Richardson
Feb 16, 2017, 5:17:23 PM2/16/17
to
On Thursday, February 16, 2017 at 12:02:22 PM UTC-7, mk wrote:
> would you be interested in a line that is not new world?
Absolutely. I never met a record I didn't like.
> would you be interested in a line that is not new world?
DR
joe...@gmail.com
Feb 16, 2017, 6:41:23 PM2/16/17
to
On Thursday, February 16, 2017 at 1:12:56 PM UTC-5, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> Dear Newsgroup ~
> Do you descend from Llywelyn ap Iorwerth, Prince of North Wales? If so, perhaps you would be kind enough to post your line of descent from this great man on the newsgroup down to your New World immigrant.
>
1. Llywellen ap Iowerth
2a. Margred verch Llywellen m. Walter de Clifford
3a. Maud de Clifford m. John Giffard
4a. Katherine Giffard m. Nicholas de Audley
5a. Nicholas de Audley m. Joan Martin
6a. Alice de Audley m. Hugh de Meynell
7a. Isabel de Meynell m. Thomas de Shirley
8a. Hugh Shirley m. Beatrice Brewes
9a. Ralph Shirley m. Joan Basset
10a. Beatrice Shirley m. John Brome
11a. Isabel Brome m. John Denton
12a. Alice Denton m. Nicholas Purefoy
13a. Edward Purefoy m. Anne Fettiplace
14a. Mary Purefoy m. Thomas Thorne
15a. Susanna Thorne m. Roger Dudley
16a. Thomas Dudley b.1576 immigrant
12b. Thomas Denton [son of 11a above] m. Jane Webb
13b. Isabel Denton m. William ap Walter
14b. Thomasine Walter m. William Luckyn
15b. Judith Luckyn m. Edward Warde
16b. (probably) Mary Ward, immigrant
16c. (probably) Rebecca Ward [daughter of 15b above], immigrant
6d. James de Audley [son of 5a above] m. Joan de Mortimer
7d. Joan de Audley m. John Tuchet
8d. John Tuchet m. Maud
9d. John Tuchet m. Elizbeth Stafford
10d. Margaret Tuchet m. John Luttrell
11d. James Luttrell m. Elizabeth Courtenay
12d. Hugh Luttrell m. Margaret Hill
13d. Eleanor Luttrell m. Roger Yorke
14d. Elizabeth Yorke m. Edmund Percival
15d. Christian Percival m. Richard Lowle
16d. Percival Lowle b.1571, immigrant
2e. Margred verch Llywellen (same as 2a above) m. John de Braose
3e. William de Braose m. Alice de Multon
4e. William de Brewes m. Agnes
5e. Aline de Brewes m. John de Mowbray
6e. John de Mowbray m. Joan of Lancaster
7e. John de Mowbray m. Elizabeth de Segrave
8e. Eleanor de Mowbray m. John de Welles
9e. Eudes Welles m. Maud de Greystoke
10e. Lionel de Welles m. Joan Waterton
11e. Margaret Welles m. Thomas Dymoke
12e. Lionel Dymoke m. Joan Griffith
13e. Anne Dymoke m. John Goodricke
14e. Lionel Goodrick m. Winifred Sapcote
15e. Anne Goodrick m. Benjamin Bolles
16e. Thomas Bolles m. Elizabeth Perkins
17e. Joseph Bolles b.1608/9 immigrant.
12f. Jane Dymoke [daughter of 11e above] m. John Fulnetby
13f. [possibly] Katherine Fulnetby m. William Dynewell
14f. Anne Dynewell m. Henry Whitgift
15f. William Whitgift
16f. Elizabeth Whitgift m. Wymond Bradbury
17f. Thomas Bradbury, b. 1610/11 immigrant
5g. Joan de Brewes [daugther of 4e above] m. Richard Foliot
6g. Margery Foliot m. Hugh de Hastings
7g. Maud de Hastings m. Robert de la Mare
8g. Willema de la Mare m. John Roches
9g. Joan Roches m. Nicholas Baynton
10g. John Baynton m. Joan
11g. Henry Baynton
12g. Jane Baynton m. Thomas Prowse
13g. Mary Prowse m. John Gye
14g. Robert Gye m. Grace Dowrish
15g. Mary Gye b.c.1580, immigrant
3h. William de Braose [same as 3e above] m. Mary de Roos
4h. Peter de Brewes m. Agnes de Clifford
5h. Peter Brewes m. Joan
6h. Beatrice Brewes m. Hugh Shirley (same as 8a above)
1i. Llewellyn ap Iowerth (same as 1a above) m. Joan of England
2i. Gwladys Dhu m. Ralph de Mortimer
3i. Roger de Mortimer m. Maud de Braose
4i. Isabella de Mortimer m. John Fitz Alan
5i. Richard Fitz Alan m. Alice di Saluzzo
6i. Alice de Arundel m. Stephen de Segrave
7i. John de Segrave m. Margaret Marshal
8i. Elizabeth de Segrave m. John de Mowbray [same as 7e above]
6j. Eleanor de Arundel [daughter of 5i above] m. Henry de Percy
7j. Henry de Percy m. Idoine de Clifford
8j. Isabel de Percy m. William de Aton
9j. Elizabeth de Aton m. John de Conyers
10j. Robert Conyers m. Isabel Pert
11j. Joan Conyers m. Philip Dymoke
12j. Thomas Dymoke m. Margaret Welles [same as 11e above]
4k. Edmund de Mortimer [son of 3i above] m. Margaret de Fiennes
5k. Roger de Mortimer m. Joan de Geneville
6k. Katherine de Mortimer m. Thomas de Beauchamp
7k. Maud de Beauchamp m. Roger de Clifford
8k. Katherine de Clifford m. Ralph de Greystoke
9k. Maud de Greystoke m. Eudes Welles [same as 9e above]
6l. Joan de Mortimer [daughter of 5k above] m. James de Audley [same as 6d above]
Message has been deleted
Jordan Vandenberg
Feb 16, 2017, 7:09:46 PM2/16/17
to
Douglas,
You didn't list her as one of the New World immigrants that descends from Llywelyn ap Iorwerth, but I think Rose Stoughton also descends from him.
Llywellen ap Iowerth
Margred verch Llywellen m. John de Braose
Eleanor de Mowbray m. Roger de la Warre
Joan de la Warre m. Thomas West
Reynold West m. Margaret Thorley
Mary West m. Roger Lewknor
Roger Lewknor m. Anne ________
Edmund Lewknor m. Joan Tyrrell
Elizabeth Lewknor m. Thomas Stoughton
Lawrence Stoughton m. Rose Ive
Anthony Stoughton m. Agnes Pierce
Rose Stoughton
On Thursday, February 16, 2017 at 1:12:56 PM UTC-5, Douglas Richardson wrote:
You didn't list her as one of the New World immigrants that descends from Llywelyn ap Iorwerth, but I think Rose Stoughton also descends from him.
Llywellen ap Iowerth
Margred verch Llywellen m. John de Braose
William de Braose m. Alice de Multon
William de Brewes m. Agnes
Aline de Brewes m. John de Mowbray
Joan of Lancaster m. John de Mowbray
Eleanor de Mowbray m. Roger de la Warre
Joan de la Warre m. Thomas West
Reynold West m. Margaret Thorley
Mary West m. Roger Lewknor
Roger Lewknor m. Anne ________
Edmund Lewknor m. Joan Tyrrell
Elizabeth Lewknor m. Thomas Stoughton
Lawrence Stoughton m. Rose Ive
Anthony Stoughton m. Agnes Pierce
Rose Stoughton
On Thursday, February 16, 2017 at 1:12:56 PM UTC-5, Douglas Richardson wrote:
Steve Riggan
Feb 17, 2017, 12:08:32 AM2/17/17
to Douglas Richardson, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Douglas, it is interesting to see the lines of all our newsgroup members.
My descents from Llywellen ap Iowerth are multiple, but I'll just send the mainline descents from Llywellen ap Iowerth through my 3 gateway ancestors William Farrar, Diana Skipwith Dale and Thomas Ligon:
Llywellen ap Iowerth
Margred verch Llywellen = John de Braose
William de Braose = Alice de Multon
William de Braose = Agnes
Joan de Braose = Sir Richard Foliot, 2nd Lord Foliot
Margery Foliot = Sir Hugh Hastings of Gressenhall
Sir Hugh Hastings = Margaret de Everingham
Sir Hugh Hastings of Gressenhall = Anne Despenser (descendant of Edward I)
Sir Edward Hastings, 8th Lord Hastings, de jure = Muriel Dinham (descendant of Edward I)
John Hastings, 9th Lord Hastings, de jure = Anne Morley (descendant of Edward I)
Elizabeth Hastings = Sir Robert Hildyard
Katherine Hildyard = William Girlington of Frodingham and Normanby
Isabel Girlington = (1) Christopher Kelke (descendant of Edward III)
William Kelke = Thomasine Skerne
Cecily Kelke = John Farrar of Ewood and Midgley
WILLIAM FARRAR (immigrant to Virginia 1618) = Mrs. Cecily Jordan
William Farrar = Mary (?)
Thomas Farrar = (2) Katherine Perrin
John Farrar = unknown wife
John Farrar = Elizabeth Lyon
Jean Farrar = Abraham Moore
William Moore = Penelope Cobb
Jane Farrar Moore = Robert A. Smith
James B. Smith = Georgiana Cavender
Robert A. Smith = Laura Nutt
Laura Mae Smith = Roy Riggan
James E. Riggan = Barbara A. Yancey (see below, 2 lines)
STEPHEN JAMES RIGGAN (s.g.m. Participant)
Aliva de Braose (sister of Joan de Braose Foliot above) = John de Mowbray, 2nd Lord Mowbray
John de Mowbray, 3rd Lord Mowbray = Joan of Lancaster
John de Mowbray, 4th Lord Mowbray = Elizabeth de Segrave (descendant of Edward I)
Eleanor de Mowbray = John de Welles, 5th Lord Welles
Eudo de Welles = Maud de Clifford
Lionel de Welles, 6th Lord Welles = Joan de Waterton
Margaret de Welles = Sir Thomas Dymoke
Sir Lionel Dymoke = Joan Griffith
Alice Dymoke = Sir William Dymoke of Ormsby (descendant of Edward I)
Sir Henry Dymoke = Jane Hall (descendant of Edward I and Llywellen ap Iowerth)
Sir William Skipwith = Margaret Cave, niece of 1st Lord Burghley
Sir Henry Skipwith, 1st Baronet of Prestwold, Leicestershire = Amy Kempe (descendant of Edward I and Llywellen ap Iowerth)
DIANA SKIPWITH (immigrant to Virginia) = Maj. Edward Dale
Elizabeth Dale = William Rogers
Hannah Rogers = Edward Blakemore
John Blakemore = Anne Tomlin
Elizabeth Blakemore = Elmore Douglass
Delia Douglass = Elias R. Brooks
Elizabeth Brooks = James C. Moore
Amanda Moore = William H. Rains
Sarah Rains = Enoch Webb
Elmer S. Webb = Laura A. Pitts (see below)
Vernene Webb = Hobert A. Yancey
Barbara Yancey = James E. Riggan (see Farrar line)
STEPHEN JAMES RIGGAN
Thomas Mowbray, Duke of Norfolk (brother of Eleanor Mowbray in Skipwith line above) = Lady Elizabeth Fitzalan (descendant of Edward I and Llywellen ap Iowerth)
Lady Isabel de Mowbray = (2) James Berkeley, 1st Baron Berkeley
Maurice Berkeley, 3rd Lord Berkeley = Isabel Meade
Anne Berkeley = Sir William Dennis
Eleanor Dennis = Sir William Lygon of Madresfield, Worcestershire
Thomas Lygon = Frances Dennis
Thomas Lygon = Elizabeth Pratt
COL. THOMAS LIGON (immigrant to Virginia) = Mary Harris
Richard Ligon = Mary Worsham
Sarah Ligon = Richard Grills
John Grills = Philadelphia (also ancestors of late Brice Clagett)
Elliott Grills = Mary Cox
William Dudley Grills = Huldah Julian
Huldah Cox Grills = (2) William C. Pitts
Laura Pitts = Elmer S. Webb (see Skipwith line above)
Vernene Webb = Hobert A. Yancey
Barbara A. Yancey = James E. Riggan (see Farrar line above)
STEPHEN JAMES RIGGAN
My descents from Llywellen ap Iowerth are multiple, but I'll just send the mainline descents from Llywellen ap Iowerth through my 3 gateway ancestors William Farrar, Diana Skipwith Dale and Thomas Ligon:
Llywellen ap Iowerth
Margred verch Llywellen = John de Braose
William de Braose = Alice de Multon
William de Braose = Agnes
Joan de Braose = Sir Richard Foliot, 2nd Lord Foliot
Margery Foliot = Sir Hugh Hastings of Gressenhall
Sir Hugh Hastings = Margaret de Everingham
Sir Hugh Hastings of Gressenhall = Anne Despenser (descendant of Edward I)
Sir Edward Hastings, 8th Lord Hastings, de jure = Muriel Dinham (descendant of Edward I)
John Hastings, 9th Lord Hastings, de jure = Anne Morley (descendant of Edward I)
Elizabeth Hastings = Sir Robert Hildyard
Katherine Hildyard = William Girlington of Frodingham and Normanby
Isabel Girlington = (1) Christopher Kelke (descendant of Edward III)
William Kelke = Thomasine Skerne
Cecily Kelke = John Farrar of Ewood and Midgley
WILLIAM FARRAR (immigrant to Virginia 1618) = Mrs. Cecily Jordan
William Farrar = Mary (?)
Thomas Farrar = (2) Katherine Perrin
John Farrar = unknown wife
John Farrar = Elizabeth Lyon
Jean Farrar = Abraham Moore
William Moore = Penelope Cobb
Jane Farrar Moore = Robert A. Smith
James B. Smith = Georgiana Cavender
Robert A. Smith = Laura Nutt
Laura Mae Smith = Roy Riggan
James E. Riggan = Barbara A. Yancey (see below, 2 lines)
STEPHEN JAMES RIGGAN (s.g.m. Participant)
Aliva de Braose (sister of Joan de Braose Foliot above) = John de Mowbray, 2nd Lord Mowbray
John de Mowbray, 3rd Lord Mowbray = Joan of Lancaster
John de Mowbray, 4th Lord Mowbray = Elizabeth de Segrave (descendant of Edward I)
Eleanor de Mowbray = John de Welles, 5th Lord Welles
Eudo de Welles = Maud de Clifford
Lionel de Welles, 6th Lord Welles = Joan de Waterton
Margaret de Welles = Sir Thomas Dymoke
Sir Lionel Dymoke = Joan Griffith
Alice Dymoke = Sir William Dymoke of Ormsby (descendant of Edward I)
Sir Henry Dymoke = Jane Hall (descendant of Edward I and Llywellen ap Iowerth)
Sir William Skipwith = Margaret Cave, niece of 1st Lord Burghley
Sir Henry Skipwith, 1st Baronet of Prestwold, Leicestershire = Amy Kempe (descendant of Edward I and Llywellen ap Iowerth)
DIANA SKIPWITH (immigrant to Virginia) = Maj. Edward Dale
Elizabeth Dale = William Rogers
Hannah Rogers = Edward Blakemore
John Blakemore = Anne Tomlin
Elizabeth Blakemore = Elmore Douglass
Delia Douglass = Elias R. Brooks
Elizabeth Brooks = James C. Moore
Amanda Moore = William H. Rains
Sarah Rains = Enoch Webb
Elmer S. Webb = Laura A. Pitts (see below)
Vernene Webb = Hobert A. Yancey
Barbara Yancey = James E. Riggan (see Farrar line)
STEPHEN JAMES RIGGAN
Thomas Mowbray, Duke of Norfolk (brother of Eleanor Mowbray in Skipwith line above) = Lady Elizabeth Fitzalan (descendant of Edward I and Llywellen ap Iowerth)
Lady Isabel de Mowbray = (2) James Berkeley, 1st Baron Berkeley
Maurice Berkeley, 3rd Lord Berkeley = Isabel Meade
Anne Berkeley = Sir William Dennis
Eleanor Dennis = Sir William Lygon of Madresfield, Worcestershire
Thomas Lygon = Frances Dennis
Thomas Lygon = Elizabeth Pratt
COL. THOMAS LIGON (immigrant to Virginia) = Mary Harris
Richard Ligon = Mary Worsham
Sarah Ligon = Richard Grills
John Grills = Philadelphia (also ancestors of late Brice Clagett)
Elliott Grills = Mary Cox
William Dudley Grills = Huldah Julian
Huldah Cox Grills = (2) William C. Pitts
Laura Pitts = Elmer S. Webb (see Skipwith line above)
Vernene Webb = Hobert A. Yancey
Barbara A. Yancey = James E. Riggan (see Farrar line above)
STEPHEN JAMES RIGGAN
Richard Carruthers
Feb 17, 2017, 2:39:40 AM2/17/17
to Steve Riggan, Douglas Richardson, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Interesting. What about an ancestor table for Llywelyn ap Iorwerth,
Prince of North Wales [died 1240]?
Richard
Prince of North Wales [died 1240]?
Richard
John Watson
Feb 17, 2017, 2:44:18 AM2/17/17
to
Leonard Vavasour (1519-1598) and Mary Hotham (1523-1597) are my 12x great-grandparents. Here are my 13 lines from Llewelyn to Leonard and Mary. Line 4 is a bit problematic.
1. line:
1. Llywelyn ap Iorwerth m. Joan of England
2. Gwladus Du m. Ralph de Mortimer
3. Roger de Mortimer m. Maud de Braose
4. Isabel de Mortimer m. John FitzAlan
5. Richard de Arundel m. Alice di Saluzzo
6. Edmund de Arundel m. Alice de Warenne
7. Aline de Arundel m. Roger Lestrange
8. Lucy Lestrange m. William Willoughby
9. Margery Willoughby m. William FitzHugh
10. Joan FitzHugh m. John Scrope
11. Henry Scrope m. Elizabeth Percy
12. Ann Scrope m. John Vavasour
13. Leonard Vavasour m. Mary Hotham
2. line:
1. Llywelyn ap Iorwerth m. Joan of England
2. Gwladus Du m. Ralph de Mortimer
3. Roger de Mortimer m. Maud de Braose
4. Isabel de Mortimer m. John FitzAlan
5. Richard de Arundel m. Alice di Saluzzo
6. Edmund de Arundel m. Alice de Warenne
7. Aline de Arundel m. Roger Lestrange
8. Lucy Lestrange m. William Willoughby
9. Margery Willoughby m. William FitzHugh
10. Lora FitzHugh m. John Constable
11. Ralph Constable m. Anne Eure
12. Lora Constable m. John Hotham IX
13. John Hotham X m. Elizabeth Headlam
14. Mary Hotham m. Leonard Vavasour
3. line:
1. Llywelyn ap Iorwerth m. Joan of England
2. Gwladus Du m. Ralph de Mortimer
3. Roger de Mortimer m. Maud de Braose
4. Isabel de Mortimer m. John FitzAlan
5. Richard de Arundel m. Alice di Saluzzo
6. Eleanor de Arundel m. Henry de Percy
7. Henry de Percy m. Idoine de Clifford
8. Isabel de Percy m. William de Aton
9. Catherine de Aton m. Ralph de Eure
10. William Eure m. Maud FitzHugh
11. Elizabeth Eure m. John Hotham VII
12. John Hotham VIII m. Isabel Hildyard
13. John Hotham IX m. Lora Constable
14. John Hotham X m. Elizabeth Headlam
15. Mary Hotham m. Leonard Vavasour
4. line:
1. Llywelyn ap Iorwerth m. Joan of England
2. Gwladus Du m. Ralph de Mortimer
3. Roger de Mortimer m. Maud de Braose
4. Isabel de Mortimer m. John FitzAlan
5. Richard de Arundel m. Alice di Saluzzo
6. Eleanor de Arundel m. Henry de Percy
7. Henry de Percy m. Idoine de Clifford
8. Isabel de Percy m. William de Aton
9. Catherine de Aton m. Ralph de Eure
10. Robert Eure m. Elizabeth Mallory
11. Elizabeth Eure m. William Bulmer
12. Ralph Bulmer m. Agnes Warde
13. nn Bulmer m. Christopher Headlam
14. Elizabeth Headlam m. John Hotham X
15. Mary Hotham m. Leonard Vavasour
5. line:
1. Llywelyn ap Iorwerth m. Joan of England
2. Gwladus Du m. Ralph de Mortimer
3. Roger de Mortimer m. Maud de Braose
4. Isabel de Mortimer m. John FitzAlan
5. Richard de Arundel m. Alice di Saluzzo
6. Eleanor de Arundel m. Henry de Percy
7. Henry de Percy m. Idoine de Clifford
8. Isabel de Percy m. William de Aton
9. Catherine de Aton m. Ralph de Eure
10. Robert Eure m. Elizabeth Mallory
11. Robert Eure m. Ellen Ingleby
12. Anne Eure m. Ralph Constable
13. Lora Constable m. John Hotham IX
14. John Hotham X m. Elizabeth Headlam
15. Mary Hotham m. Leonard Vavasour
6. line:
1. Llywelyn ap Iorwerth m. Joan of England
2. Gwladus Du m. Ralph de Mortimer
3. Roger de Mortimer m. Maud de Braose
4. Isabel de Mortimer m. John FitzAlan
5. Richard de Arundel m. Alice di Saluzzo
6. Eleanor de Arundel m. Henry de Percy
7. Henry de Percy m. Idoine de Clifford
8. Henry de Percy m. Mary Plantagenet
9. Henry de Percy m. Margaret de Neville
10. Henry Percy m. Elizabeth Mortimer
11. Henry Percy m. Eleanor Neville
12. Henry Percy m. Eleanor Poynings
13. Elizabeth Percy m. Henry Scrope
14. Ann Scrope m. John Vavasour
15. Leonard Vavasour m. Mary Hotham
7. line:
1. Llywelyn ap Iorwerth m. Joan of England
2. Gwladus Du m. Ralph de Mortimer
3. Roger de Mortimer m. Maud de Braose
4. Isabel de Mortimer m. John FitzAlan
5. Richard de Arundel m. Alice di Saluzzo
6. Eleanor de Arundel m. Henry de Percy
7. Henry de Percy m. Idoine de Clifford
8. Maud de Percy m. John de Neville
9. Ralph de Neville m. Margaret de Stafford
10. Margaret Neville m. Richard le Scrope
11. Henry Scrope m. Elizabeth Scrope
12. John Scrope m. Joan FitzHugh
13. Henry Scrope m. Elizabeth Percy
14. Ann Scrope m. John Vavasour
15. Leonard Vavasour m. Mary Hotham
8. line:
1. Llywelyn ap Iorwerth m. Joan of England
2. Gwladus Du m. Ralph de Mortimer
3. Roger de Mortimer m. Maud de Braose
4. Isabel de Mortimer m. John FitzAlan
5. Richard de Arundel m. Alice di Saluzzo
6. Eleanor de Arundel m. Henry de Percy
7. Henry de Percy m. Idoine de Clifford
8. Maud de Percy m. John de Neville
9. Ralph de Neville m. Joan Beaufort
10. Eleanor Neville m. Henry Percy
11. Henry Percy m. Eleanor Poynings
12. Elizabeth Percy m. Henry Scrope
13. Ann Scrope m. John Vavasour
14. Leonard Vavasour m. Mary Hotham
9. line:
1. Llywelyn ap Iorwerth m. Joan of England
2. Gwladus Du m. Ralph de Mortimer
3. Roger de Mortimer m. Maud de Braose
4. Edmund de Mortimer m. Margaret de Fiennes
5. Roger de Mortimer m. Joan de Geneville
6. Edmund de Mortimer m. Elizabeth de Badlesmere
7. Roger de Mortimer m. Philippe de Montagu
8. Edmund de Mortimer m. Philippe Plantagenet
9. Elizabeth Mortimer m. Henry Percy
10. Henry Percy m. Eleanor Neville
11. Henry Percy m. Eleanor Poynings
12. Elizabeth Percy m. Henry Scrope
13. Ann Scrope m. John Vavasour
14. Leonard Vavasour m. Mary Hotham
10. line:
1. Llywelyn ap Iorwerth m. Joan of England
2. Gwladus Du m. Ralph de Mortimer
3. Roger de Mortimer m. Maud de Braose
4. Edmund de Mortimer m. Margaret de Fiennes
5. Roger de Mortimer m. Joan de Geneville
6. Catherine de Mortimer m. Thomas de Beauchamp
7. Philippe de Beauchamp m. Hugh de Stafford
8. Margaret de Stafford m. Ralph de Neville
9. Margaret Neville m. Richard le Scrope
10. Henry Scrope m. Elizabeth Scrope
11. John Scrope m. Joan FitzHugh
12. Henry Scrope m. Elizabeth Percy
13. Ann Scrope m. John Vavasour
14. Leonard Vavasour m. Mary Hotham
11. line:
1. Llywelyn ap Iorwerth m. Joan of England
2. Gwladus Du m. Ralph de Mortimer
3. Roger de Mortimer m. Maud de Braose
4. Edmund de Mortimer m. Margaret de Fiennes
5. Maud de Mortimer m. Theobald de Verdun
6. Joan de Verdun m. Thomas de Furnival
7. Maud de Furnival m. Walter de Montgomery
8. Nicholas Montgomery I m. Margery Foljambe
9. Maud Montgomery m. Thomas Clarel II
10. Margaret Clarel m. William Gascoigne IV
11. Joan Gascoigne m. Henry Vavasour
12. Henry Vavasour m. Elizabeth Everingham
13. John Vavasour m. Ann Scrope
14. Leonard Vavasour m. Mary Hotham
12. line:
1. Llywelyn ap Iorwerth m. N.N.
2. Margaret ferch Llewelyn m. Walter de Clifford III
3. Maud de Clifford m. John Giffard
4. Catherine Giffard m. Nicholas de Audley
5. Nicholas de Audley m. Joan Martin
6. Alice de Audley m. Hugh de Meynell
7. Isabel de Meynell m. Gerard de Braybrook III
8. Nicole Braybrook m. Thomas Chaworth VI
9. Elizabeth Chaworth m. John le Scrope
10. Elizabeth Scrope m. Henry Scrope
11. John Scrope m. Joan FitzHugh
12. Henry Scrope m. Elizabeth Percy
13. Ann Scrope m. John Vavasour
14. Leonard Vavasour m. Mary Hotham
13. line:
1. Llywelyn ap Iorwerth m. N.N.
2. Margaret ferch Llewelyn m. Walter de Clifford III
3. Maud de Clifford m. John Giffard
4. Eleanor Giffard m. Fulk Lestrange
5. John Lestrange m. Ankaret Botiller
6. Alianor Lestrange m. Reynold Grey
7. Reynold Grey m. Margaret Ros
8. Elizabeth Grey m. Robert de Poynings
9. Richard Poynings m. Eleanor Berkeley
10. Eleanor Poynings m. Henry Percy
11. Elizabeth Percy m. Henry Scrope
12. Ann Scrope m. John Vavasour
13. Leonard Vavasour m. Mary Hotham
Regards,
John
Kelsey Jackson Williams
Feb 17, 2017, 3:42:46 AM2/17/17
to
Here's a line down to an eighteenth-century immigrant to toss into the mix. I've quickly copied generations 1-9 from Leo's database, so apologies if any errors have crept in.
1. Llywelyn ap Iorwerth = Joan of England
2. Elen ferch Llywelyn = Robert de Quincy, Lord of Ware
3. Hawise or Margaret de Quincy = Baldwin Wake, Lord of Bourne
4. John Wake, 1st Baron Wake = Joan de Fiennes
5. Margaret Wake, Baroness Wake = Edmund of Woodstock, Earl of Kent
6. Joan, Countess of Kent = Thomas de Holand, 1st Earl of Kent
7. Thomas de Holand, 2nd Earl of Kent = Alice Fitzalan
8. Margaret de Holand = John Beaufort, Marquis of Dorset and Somerset
9. Joan Beaufort = James I, King of Scots
10. James II, King of Scots = Marie van Egmond
11. Alexander Stewart, Duke of Albany = Catherine Sinclair
12. Alexander Stewart, Bishop of Moray by a mistress
13. Margaret Stewart = Patrick Graham, 1st of Inchbraikie
14. Janet Graham = Robert Buchanan, 7th of Leny
15. Robert Buchanan, 8th of Leny = Elizabeth Stirling
16. John Buchanan = Agnes Barclay
17. Robert Ruadh Buchanan in Drumbane = [not identified]
18. Margaret Buchanan = Patrick Stewart, 3rd of Ledcreich
19. Alexander Stewart, 4th of Ledcreich = Catherine Stewart
20. PATRICK STEWART, 5TH OF LEDCREICH, immigrated to North Carolina in 1739.
All the best,
Kelsey
1. Llywelyn ap Iorwerth = Joan of England
2. Elen ferch Llywelyn = Robert de Quincy, Lord of Ware
3. Hawise or Margaret de Quincy = Baldwin Wake, Lord of Bourne
4. John Wake, 1st Baron Wake = Joan de Fiennes
5. Margaret Wake, Baroness Wake = Edmund of Woodstock, Earl of Kent
6. Joan, Countess of Kent = Thomas de Holand, 1st Earl of Kent
7. Thomas de Holand, 2nd Earl of Kent = Alice Fitzalan
8. Margaret de Holand = John Beaufort, Marquis of Dorset and Somerset
9. Joan Beaufort = James I, King of Scots
10. James II, King of Scots = Marie van Egmond
11. Alexander Stewart, Duke of Albany = Catherine Sinclair
12. Alexander Stewart, Bishop of Moray by a mistress
13. Margaret Stewart = Patrick Graham, 1st of Inchbraikie
14. Janet Graham = Robert Buchanan, 7th of Leny
15. Robert Buchanan, 8th of Leny = Elizabeth Stirling
16. John Buchanan = Agnes Barclay
17. Robert Ruadh Buchanan in Drumbane = [not identified]
18. Margaret Buchanan = Patrick Stewart, 3rd of Ledcreich
19. Alexander Stewart, 4th of Ledcreich = Catherine Stewart
20. PATRICK STEWART, 5TH OF LEDCREICH, immigrated to North Carolina in 1739.
All the best,
Kelsey
Steve Riggan
Feb 17, 2017, 4:40:02 AM2/17/17
to Douglas Richardson, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Correction in Skipwith line. It seems I made a slight error in my Skipwith line going off memory and not paying close attention. Alice Dymoke married Sir William Skipwith of Ormsby and their son was Sir Henry Skipwith. I mistakenly labeled them by the Dymoke surname.
Steve Riggan
Sent from my iPhone
Steve Riggan
Sent from my iPhone
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
mk
Feb 17, 2017, 9:39:30 AM2/17/17
to Douglas Richardson, GenMedieval
Llywellen ap Iorwerth
Gruffydd ap Llewelyn
Gruffydd Vychan
Catherine ferch Gruffydd
Gladys verch Iorwerth
Gruffudd ap Iorwerth
Llewelyn Ddu
David Hanmer
Margaret Hanmer
Jonet ferch Owain Glyndwr
William Croft
Richard Croft
Jane Croft
Jane Darell
Edmund Hungerford
Bridget Hungerford
Agnes Hitchcock
William Bennett
William Bennett
John Bennett
Frances Bennett
William Parham
William Parham
Mary Parham
Llywellan ap Iorwerth
Gwladys Ddu
Roger Mortimer
Edmund Mortimer
Matilda Mortimer
a) Margery Verdun
Reginald Hussey
Edmund Hussey
Joan Hussey
Walter Hungerford
Edmund Hungerford
Thomas Hungerford
Anthony Hungerford
Edmund Hungerford
[as above]
b) Elizabeth Verdun
Joan Burghersh
Maud de Mohun
Aline Strange
Margaret Burnell
Thomas Hungerford
[as above]
Llywelyn Mawr
Angharad ferch Llywelyn Mawr
Elena ferch Maelgwn
Owen ap Meredith
Llewelyn ab Owen
Thomas ap Llywelyn
Eleanor ferch Thomas
Owain Glyndwr
[as 1st line]
Llewelyn Mawr
Gruffydd ap Llewelyn Mawr
Gruffudd Vychan ap Gruffudd
Catherine ferch Gruffydd
Iorwerth Foel ap Iorwerth
Gruffudd ap Iorwerth
Llewelyn Ddu ap Gruffudd
Angharad ferch Llewelyn Ddu
Margaret Hanmer
[as 1st line]
Of course there is the disputed one through Catherine ferch Llewelyn and
Philip ap Ivor.
Frustratingly there would be a lot through Mary Savage Hitchcock +1570, but
the visitation of Wiltshire is incorrect in placing her as the daughter of
Sir John Savage +1597 and Elizabeth Manners. If she is the daughter of one
of the Sir Johns of that line she would have many descents.
Here's one I've never explored because I have the feeling it is off. Still,
might be worth a look
Llywelyn Mawr
Dafydd ap Llywelyn Mawr
Llewelyn ap Dafydd
Cynwrig ap Llywelyn
Dafydd Llwyd
Mawd ferch Dafydd
Ieuan Goch
Morfudd ferch Ieuan
Marsli ferch Maredudd
NN verch Cynwrig
Gwenhwyfar ferch Ednyfed
Agnes ferch Dafydd
David Hanmer
[as first line]
On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 5:17 PM, Douglas Richardson <royala...@msn.com>
wrote:
Gruffydd ap Llewelyn
Gruffydd Vychan
Catherine ferch Gruffydd
Gladys verch Iorwerth
Gruffudd ap Iorwerth
Llewelyn Ddu
David Hanmer
Margaret Hanmer
Jonet ferch Owain Glyndwr
William Croft
Richard Croft
Jane Croft
Jane Darell
Edmund Hungerford
Bridget Hungerford
Agnes Hitchcock
William Bennett
William Bennett
John Bennett
Frances Bennett
William Parham
William Parham
Mary Parham
Llywellan ap Iorwerth
Gwladys Ddu
Roger Mortimer
Edmund Mortimer
Matilda Mortimer
a) Margery Verdun
Reginald Hussey
Edmund Hussey
Joan Hussey
Walter Hungerford
Edmund Hungerford
Thomas Hungerford
Anthony Hungerford
Edmund Hungerford
[as above]
b) Elizabeth Verdun
Joan Burghersh
Maud de Mohun
Aline Strange
Margaret Burnell
Thomas Hungerford
[as above]
Llywelyn Mawr
Angharad ferch Llywelyn Mawr
Elena ferch Maelgwn
Owen ap Meredith
Llewelyn ab Owen
Thomas ap Llywelyn
Eleanor ferch Thomas
Owain Glyndwr
[as 1st line]
Llewelyn Mawr
Gruffydd ap Llewelyn Mawr
Gruffudd Vychan ap Gruffudd
Catherine ferch Gruffydd
Iorwerth Foel ap Iorwerth
Gruffudd ap Iorwerth
Llewelyn Ddu ap Gruffudd
Angharad ferch Llewelyn Ddu
Margaret Hanmer
[as 1st line]
Of course there is the disputed one through Catherine ferch Llewelyn and
Philip ap Ivor.
Frustratingly there would be a lot through Mary Savage Hitchcock +1570, but
the visitation of Wiltshire is incorrect in placing her as the daughter of
Sir John Savage +1597 and Elizabeth Manners. If she is the daughter of one
of the Sir Johns of that line she would have many descents.
Here's one I've never explored because I have the feeling it is off. Still,
might be worth a look
Llywelyn Mawr
Dafydd ap Llywelyn Mawr
Llewelyn ap Dafydd
Cynwrig ap Llywelyn
Dafydd Llwyd
Mawd ferch Dafydd
Ieuan Goch
Morfudd ferch Ieuan
Marsli ferch Maredudd
NN verch Cynwrig
Gwenhwyfar ferch Ednyfed
Agnes ferch Dafydd
David Hanmer
[as first line]
On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 5:17 PM, Douglas Richardson <royala...@msn.com>
wrote:
Jan Wolfe
Feb 17, 2017, 9:56:39 AM2/17/17
to
On Friday, February 17, 2017 at 3:42:46 AM UTC-5, Kelsey Jackson Williams wrote:
> Here's a line down to an eighteenth-century immigrant to toss into the mix. I've quickly copied generations 1-9 from Leo's database, so apologies if any errors have crept in.
>
> 1. Llywelyn ap Iorwerth = Joan of England
> 2. Elen ferch Llywelyn = Robert de Quincy, Lord of Ware
> 3. Hawise or Margaret de Quincy = Baldwin Wake, Lord of Bourne
> 4. John Wake, 1st Baron Wake = Joan de Fiennes
> 5. Margaret Wake, Baroness Wake = Edmund of Woodstock, Earl of Kent
> 6. Joan, Countess of Kent = Thomas de Holand, 1st Earl of Kent
> 7. Thomas de Holand, 2nd Earl of Kent = Alice Fitzalan
> 8. Margaret de Holand = John Beaufort, Marquis of Dorset and Somerset
> 9. Joan Beaufort = James I, King of Scots
> 10. James II, King of Scots = Marie van Egmond
> 11. Alexander Stewart, Duke of Albany = Catherine Sinclair
> 12. Alexander Stewart, Bishop of Moray by a mistress
> 13. Margaret Stewart = Patrick Graham, 1st of Inchbraikie
> 14. Janet Graham = Robert Buchanan, 7th of Leny
> 15. Robert Buchanan, 8th of Leny = Elizabeth Stirling
> 16. John Buchanan = Agnes Barclay
> 17. Robert Ruadh Buchanan in Drumbane = [not identified]
> 18. Margaret Buchanan = Patrick Stewart, 3rd of Ledcreich
> 19. Alexander Stewart, 4th of Ledcreich = Catherine Stewart
> 20. PATRICK STEWART, 5TH OF LEDCREICH, immigrated to North Carolina in 1739.
>
> All the best,
> Kelsey
>
Using Kelsey's 1-10, 1714 immigrants Katherine (Craighead) Homes and her brother Thomas Craighead are descendants of Llywelyn ap Iorwerth, if one accepts the identity of the parents of the Rev. John Heart as David Heart and Jean Mowat. John Heart's son David had visited New England c. 1686. Katherine's husband William Homes had taught in New England at about the same time before returning to Ireland where he and Katherine were married in 1693.
> Here's a line down to an eighteenth-century immigrant to toss into the mix. I've quickly copied generations 1-9 from Leo's database, so apologies if any errors have crept in.
>
> 1. Llywelyn ap Iorwerth = Joan of England
> 2. Elen ferch Llywelyn = Robert de Quincy, Lord of Ware
> 3. Hawise or Margaret de Quincy = Baldwin Wake, Lord of Bourne
> 4. John Wake, 1st Baron Wake = Joan de Fiennes
> 5. Margaret Wake, Baroness Wake = Edmund of Woodstock, Earl of Kent
> 6. Joan, Countess of Kent = Thomas de Holand, 1st Earl of Kent
> 7. Thomas de Holand, 2nd Earl of Kent = Alice Fitzalan
> 8. Margaret de Holand = John Beaufort, Marquis of Dorset and Somerset
> 9. Joan Beaufort = James I, King of Scots
> 10. James II, King of Scots = Marie van Egmond
> 11. Alexander Stewart, Duke of Albany = Catherine Sinclair
> 12. Alexander Stewart, Bishop of Moray by a mistress
> 13. Margaret Stewart = Patrick Graham, 1st of Inchbraikie
> 14. Janet Graham = Robert Buchanan, 7th of Leny
> 15. Robert Buchanan, 8th of Leny = Elizabeth Stirling
> 16. John Buchanan = Agnes Barclay
> 17. Robert Ruadh Buchanan in Drumbane = [not identified]
> 18. Margaret Buchanan = Patrick Stewart, 3rd of Ledcreich
> 19. Alexander Stewart, 4th of Ledcreich = Catherine Stewart
> 20. PATRICK STEWART, 5TH OF LEDCREICH, immigrated to North Carolina in 1739.
>
> All the best,
> Kelsey
>
The line is as follows:
11. James III, King of Scotland = Margaret of Denmark
12. James IV, King of Scotland = Margaret Tudor
13. James V, King of Scotland, by Euphemia Elphinstone
14. Robert Stewart, Earl of Orkney
15. Christian Stewart = John Mowat (son of Andrew Mowat and Ursula Tulloch)
16. Jean Mowat = David Heart
17. John Heart = Agnes Baxter
18. Agnes Heart = Robert Craighead
19. Katherine Craighead = William Homes
and
19. Thomas Craighead = Margaret Wallace
Patrick Nielsen Hayden
Feb 17, 2017, 10:44:18 AM2/17/17
to
On Thursday, February 16, 2017 at 1:12:56 PM UTC-5, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> Do you descend from Llywelyn ap Iorwerth, Prince of North Wales? If
> so, perhaps you would be kind enough to post your line of descent from
> this great man on the newsgroup down to your New World immigrant.
17th-century immigrant Olive Welby (d. 1 Mar 1692, Chelmsford,
> so, perhaps you would be kind enough to post your line of descent from
> this great man on the newsgroup down to your New World immigrant.
Massachusetts) is a 10G grandmother to my wife Teresa Nielsen Hayden.
To the best of my knowledge these are Olive Welby's known descents from
Llywelyn ap Iorwerth. Corrections, questions, or quibbles welcome!
Llywelyn ap Iorwerth = unknown mistress
Margaret verch Llwelyn = John de Brewes
William de Brewes = Aline de Multon
William de Brewes = Agnes
Aline de Brewes = John de Mowbray
John de Mowbray = Joan of Lancaster
John Mowbray = Elizabeth de Segrave
Joan Mowbray = Thomas III Gray
Maud Gray = Robert Ogle
Elizabeth Ogle = William Heron
Elizabeth Heron = John Heron
Elizabeth Heron = Robert Tailboys
Maud Tailboys = Robert Tyrwhit
Katherine Tyrwhit = Richard Thimbleby
Elizabeth Thimbleby = Thomas Welby
Richard Welby = Frances Bulkeley
Olive Welby
Llywelyn ap Iorwerth = unknown mistress
Margaret verch Llwelyn = Walter III de Clifford
Maud de Clifford = John Giffard
Eleanor Giffard = Fulke le Strange
Elizabeth le Strange = Robert Corbet
Roger Corbet = Margaret de Erdington
Robert Corbet = Margaret
Mary Corbet = Robert Charlton
Richard Charlton = Elizabeth Mainwaring
Anne Charlton = Randall Grosvenor
Elizabeth Grosvenor = Thomas Bulkeley
Edward Bulkeley = Olive Irby
Frances Bulkeley = Richard Welby
Olive Welby
Llywelyn ap Iorwerth = unknown mistress
Margaret verch Llwelyn = Walter III de Clifford
Maud de Clifford = John Giffard
Eleanor Giffard = Fulke le Strange
Maud le Strange = Griffin Warren
Griffin Warren = Margaret Corbet
John Warren = Margaret Cheyne
Margaret Warren = William Mainwaring
Elizabeth Mainwaring = Richard Charlton
Anne Charlton = Randall Grosvenor
Elizabeth Grosvenor = Thomas Bulkeley
Edward Bulkeley = Olive Irby
Frances Bulkeley = Richard Welby
Olive Welby
Llywelyn ap Iorwerth = unknown mistress
Margaret verch Llwelyn = Walter III de Clifford
Maud de Clifford = John Giffard
Eleanor Giffard = Fulke le Strange
Maud le Strange = Griffin Warren
Margaret Warren = Griffith Hull
Humphrey Hill = Agnes Bird
William Hill = Margaret Barker
William Hill = Alice
Beatrice Hill = William Bulkeley
Thomas Bulkeley = Elizabeth Grosvenor
Edward Bulkeley = Olive Irby
Frances Bulkeley = Richard Welby
Olive Welby
Llywelyn ap Iorwerth = unknown mistress
Margaret verch Llwelyn = Walter III de Clifford
Maud de Clifford = John Giffard
Eleanor Giffard = Fulke le Strange
John le Strange = Ankaret le Boteler
Eleanor le Strange = Reynold de Grey
Reynold de Grey = Margaret de Ros
Margaret Grey = William Bonville
Elizabeth Bonville = William Tailboys
Robert Tailboys = Elizabeth Heron
Maud Tailboys = Robert Tyrwhit
Katherine Tyrwhit = Richard Thimbleby
Elizabeth Thimbleby = Thomas Welby
Richard Welby = Frances Bulkeley
Olive Welby
Llywelyn ap Iorwerth = unknown mistress
Gwladus Ddu = Ralph de Mortimer
Roger de Mortimer = Maud de Braose
Isabella de Mortimer = John Fitz Alan
Richard Fitz Alan = Alice di Saluzzo
Eleanor de Arundel = Henry Percy
Henry Percy = Idoine de Clifford
Maud de Percy = John de Neville
Eleanor Neville = Ralph Lumley
Elizabeth Lumley = Adam GTyrwhit
Robert Tyrwhit = Jane Waterton
William Tyrwhit = Anne Constable
Robert Tyrwhit = Maud Tailboys
Katherine Tyrwhit = Richard Thimbleby
Elizabeth Thimbleby = Thomas Welby
Richard Welby = Frances Bulkeley
Olive Welby
Llywelyn ap Iorwerth = unknown mistress
Gwladus Ddu = Ralph de Mortimer
Roger de Mortimer = Maud de Braose
Isabella de Mortimer = John Fitz Alan
Richard Fitz Alan = Alice di Saluzzo
Alice de Arundel = Stephen de Segrave
John de Segrave = Margaret Marshal
Elizabeth de Segrave = John Mowbray
Joan Mowbray = Thomas III Gray
Maud Gray = Robert Ogle
Elizabeth Ogle = William Heron
Elizabeth Heron = John Heron
Elizabeth Heron = Robert Tailboys
Maud Tailboys = Robert Tyrwhit
Katherine Tyrwhit = Richard Thimbleby
Elizabeth Thimbleby = Thomas Welby
Richard Welby = Frances Bulkeley
Olive Welby
--
Patrick Nielsen Hayden
p...@panix.com
http://nielsenhayden.com/genealogy-tng
Jan Wolfe
Feb 17, 2017, 11:32:39 AM2/17/17
to
Is there any consensus concerning the identity of the mother of any of the daughters of Llywelyn ap Iorwerth? In 2015, Roderick Ward posted a helpful guide to the website that provides images of Bartrum's work.
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2015-10/1446048560
In Roderick's post there is a link to a page about the children of Llywelyn ap Iorwerth.
http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/5112/gruffudd%20ap%20cynan%204.png
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2015-10/1446048560
In Roderick's post there is a link to a page about the children of Llywelyn ap Iorwerth.
http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/5112/gruffudd%20ap%20cynan%204.png
Tim Forsythe
Feb 17, 2017, 12:28:43 PM2/17/17
to
My line is as follows
http://timforsythe.com/gigatrees/the-forsythe-saga/profiles/I6978
Norton or James Claypole
James Claypoole (~1672-)
James Claypool (1701-1789) + Jane _____ (1701-1788)
Jesse Claypool (1752-1833) + Elizabeth Miller (1757-1834)
Jane Claypool (1789-1846) + Arthur McFarland (1788-1834)
Eliza McFarland (1814-1882) + William Madison McFarland (1814-1896)
Martha Lurinda McFarland (1846-1920) + William Henry Forsyth (1844-1871)
William Marion Forsyth (1871-1904) + Margaret Scully (1873-1954)
William Henry Forsythe (1893-1974) + Minnie Elizabeth Humphrey (1894-1990)
William David Forsythe (1918-2015) + Doris Marie Loebach
Tim Forsythe
http://timforsythe.com/gigatrees/the-forsythe-saga/profiles/I6978
Norton or James Claypole
James Claypoole (~1672-)
James Claypool (1701-1789) + Jane _____ (1701-1788)
Jesse Claypool (1752-1833) + Elizabeth Miller (1757-1834)
Jane Claypool (1789-1846) + Arthur McFarland (1788-1834)
Eliza McFarland (1814-1882) + William Madison McFarland (1814-1896)
Martha Lurinda McFarland (1846-1920) + William Henry Forsyth (1844-1871)
William Marion Forsyth (1871-1904) + Margaret Scully (1873-1954)
William Henry Forsythe (1893-1974) + Minnie Elizabeth Humphrey (1894-1990)
William David Forsythe (1918-2015) + Doris Marie Loebach
Tim Forsythe
taf
Feb 17, 2017, 1:29:25 PM2/17/17
to
On Friday, February 17, 2017 at 6:39:30 AM UTC-8, mk wrote:
> Llywellen ap Iorwerth
> Gruffydd ap Llewelyn
> Gruffydd Vychan
> Catherine ferch Gruffydd
> Gladys verch Iorwerth
> Gruffudd ap Iorwerth
> Llewelyn Ddu
> David Hanmer
> Margaret Hanmer
> Llywellen ap Iorwerth
> Gruffydd ap Llewelyn
> Gruffydd Vychan
> Catherine ferch Gruffydd
> Gladys verch Iorwerth
> Gruffudd ap Iorwerth
> Llewelyn Ddu
> David Hanmer
> Margaret Hanmer
> Llewelyn Mawr
> Gruffydd ap Llewelyn Mawr
> Gruffudd Vychan ap Gruffudd
> Catherine ferch Gruffydd
> Iorwerth Foel ap Iorwerth
> Gruffudd ap Iorwerth
> Llewelyn Ddu ap Gruffudd
> Angharad ferch Llewelyn Ddu
> Margaret Hanmer
These two lines are conflicting versions of the same descent, but it is not a valid descent. Starting at the bottom and moving up. One shows David Hanmer as son of Llewelyn Ddu, the other shows him as son-in-law, which is correct relationship.
> Gruffydd ap Llewelyn Mawr
> Gruffudd Vychan ap Gruffudd
> Catherine ferch Gruffydd
> Iorwerth Foel ap Iorwerth
> Gruffudd ap Iorwerth
> Llewelyn Ddu ap Gruffudd
> Angharad ferch Llewelyn Ddu
> Margaret Hanmer
http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/4731/Hanmer%201.png
The to versions share the same father of Llewelyn Ddu, Gruffydd ap Iorwerth, but then they diverge again. They both then make Gruffydd the grandson of Catherine ferch Gruffydd, but one makes him her maternal granddaughter, while the other makes Gruffydd his paternal grandmother.
Addressing the first, Gwladus ferch Iorwerth, wife of Iorwerth Foel and mother of Gruffydd ap Iorwerth, was daughter of Iorwerth ap Griffri. He had two women, but it seems unclear which is mother of his children. Importantly, though, neither of these women is Catherine ferch Gruffydd. For this see Bartrum's Mael Maelienydd pedigree
http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/5398/mael%20maelienydd%201.png
Turning to the second, it is on more solid ground - iorwerth Foel was indeed son of another Iorwerth, by Catherine ferch Gruffydd. For the line back to here see Bartrum's Tudur Trefor 10, 12, 15, 17
http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/5487/Tudur%20Trefor%2017.png
http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/4917/Tudur%20Trefor%2015.png
http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/4897/Tudur%20Trefor%2012.png
http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/4911/Tudur%20Trefor%2010.png
However, this Catherine was not granddaughter of Gruffydd ap Llewelyn, but his daughter:
http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/4951/gruffudd%20ap%20cynan%205.png
Let me add, though that this is the intended pedigree, but Bartrum's goal was to present the Welsh pedigree tradition, but this doesn't mean that the preserved Welsh pedigree tradition represents accurate genealogy.
> Llywelyn Mawr
> Angharad ferch Llywelyn Mawr
> Elena ferch Maelgwn
> Owen ap Meredith
> Llewelyn ab Owen
> Thomas ap Llywelyn
> Eleanor ferch Thomas
> Owain Glyndwr
http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/5547/Rhys%20ap%20Tewdwr%206.png
> Here's one I've never explored because I have the feeling
> it is off. Still, might be worth a look
>
> Llywelyn Mawr
> Dafydd ap Llywelyn Mawr
> Llewelyn ap Dafydd
> Cynwrig ap Llywelyn
> Dafydd Llwyd
> Mawd ferch Dafydd
> Ieuan Goch
> Morfudd ferch Ieuan
> Marsli ferch Maredudd
> NN verch Cynwrig
> Gwenhwyfar ferch Ednyfed
> Agnes ferch Dafydd
> David Hanmer
taf
ravinma...@yahoo.com
Feb 17, 2017, 2:23:57 PM2/17/17
to
> Using Kelsey's 1-10, 1714 immigrants Katherine (Craighead) Homes and her brother Thomas Craighead are descendants of Llywelyn ap Iorwerth, if one accepts the identity of the parents of the Rev. John Heart as David Heart and Jean Mowat. John Heart's son David had visited New England c. 1686. Katherine's husband William Homes had taught in New England at about the same time before returning to Ireland where he and Katherine were married in 1693.
>
> The line is as follows:
> 11. James III, King of Scotland = Margaret of Denmark
> 12. James IV, King of Scotland = Margaret Tudor
> 13. James V, King of Scotland, by Euphemia Elphinstone
> 14. Robert Stewart, Earl of Orkney
> 15. Christian Stewart = John Mowat (son of Andrew Mowat and Ursula Tulloch)
> 16. Jean Mowat = David Heart
> 17. John Heart = Agnes Baxter
> 18. Agnes Heart = Robert Craighead
> 19. Katherine Craighead = William Homes
> and
> 19. Thomas Craighead = Margaret Wallace
http://digital.nls.uk/scottish-history-society-publications/browse/pageturner.cfm?id=127701753&mode=transcription
The evidence for the Rev. John Heart's having had a son named David is here (second half of posting):
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2015-01/1421265381
ravinma...@yahoo.com
Feb 17, 2017, 2:28:06 PM2/17/17
to
mk
Feb 17, 2017, 2:39:23 PM2/17/17
to taf, GenMedieval
detached her from Gruffudd Vychan she ended up in the right place. As for
the other errors, they are from careless copying, I'm afraid. It should
have looked like this.
Gruffydd ap Llewelyn
Catherine ferch Gruffyd
Iorwerth Foel
Gruffydd ap Iorwerth
Llwelyn Ddu ap Gruffydd
Angharad ferch Llywellyn Ddu
Margaret Hanmer
>
> > Llywelyn Mawr
> > Angharad ferch Llywelyn Mawr
> > Elena ferch Maelgwn
> > Owen ap Meredith
> > Llewelyn ab Owen
> > Thomas ap Llywelyn
> > Eleanor ferch Thomas
> > Owain Glyndwr
>
> This one breaks after the third generation. Owain ap Maredudd was son of
> Maredudd ap Owain, who married Elinor ferch Maelgwn, but Owain's mother was
> a different woman of Maredudd's.
>
> http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/5547/
> Rhys%20ap%20Tewdwr%206.png
>
>
>
Thomas ap Rhodri and Margred ferch Einion.
> > Here's one I've never explored because I have the feeling
> > it is off. Still, might be worth a look
> >
> > Llywelyn Mawr
> > Dafydd ap Llywelyn Mawr
> > Llewelyn ap Dafydd
> > Cynwrig ap Llywelyn
> > Dafydd Llwyd
> > Mawd ferch Dafydd
> > Ieuan Goch
> > Morfudd ferch Ieuan
> > Marsli ferch Maredudd
> > NN verch Cynwrig
> > Gwenhwyfar ferch Ednyfed
> > Agnes ferch Dafydd
> > David Hanmer
>
> I can't confirm its truth, but it matches Bartrum.
>
> taf
>
mk
Feb 17, 2017, 4:15:26 PM2/17/17
to taf, GenMedieval
Looking again at Elena ferch Maelgwyn, what do you make of this mostly
female line?
Angharad ferch Llywelyn Mawr
Elena ferch Maelgwyn
Gwenllian ferch Cynan
Philippa verch Gruffudd Llwyd
Cynwrig ap Bleddyn
NN ferch Cynwrig
female line?
Angharad ferch Llywelyn Mawr
Elena ferch Maelgwyn
Gwenllian ferch Cynan
Philippa verch Gruffudd Llwyd
Cynwrig ap Bleddyn
NN ferch Cynwrig
Gwenhwyfar ferch Ednyfed
Agnes ferch Dafydd
David Hanmer
Agnes ferch Dafydd
David Hanmer
On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 2:38 PM, mk <monica....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 1:29 PM, taf <taf.me...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 1:29 PM, taf <taf.me...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/5487/T
>> udur%20Trefor%2017.png
>>
>> http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/4917/T
>> udur%20Trefor%2017.png
>>
>> http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/4917/T
>> udur%20Trefor%2015.png
>>
>> http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/4897/T
>> udur%20Trefor%2012.png
>>
>> http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/4911/T
>>
>> http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/4897/T
>> udur%20Trefor%2012.png
>>
>> http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/4911/T
>> udur%20Trefor%2010.png
>>
>> However, this Catherine was not granddaughter of Gruffydd ap Llewelyn,
>> but his daughter:
>>
>> http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/4951/g
>> ruffudd%20ap%20cynan%205.png
>>
>> Let me add, though that this is the intended pedigree, but Bartrum's goal
>> was to present the Welsh pedigree tradition, but this doesn't mean that the
>> preserved Welsh pedigree tradition represents accurate genealogy.
>>
>
>>
>> However, this Catherine was not granddaughter of Gruffydd ap Llewelyn,
>> but his daughter:
>>
>> http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/4951/g
>> ruffudd%20ap%20cynan%205.png
>>
>> Let me add, though that this is the intended pedigree, but Bartrum's goal
>> was to present the Welsh pedigree tradition, but this doesn't mean that the
>> preserved Welsh pedigree tradition represents accurate genealogy.
>>
>
> Thanks for this Taf, somehow I had hooked Catherine up twice. When I
> detached her from Gruffudd Vychan she ended up in the right place. As for
> the other errors, they are from careless copying, I'm afraid. It should
> have looked like this.
>
> Gruffydd ap Llewelyn
> Catherine ferch Gruffyd
> Iorwerth Foel
> Gruffydd ap Iorwerth
> Llwelyn Ddu ap Gruffydd
> Angharad ferch Llywellyn Ddu
> Margaret Hanmer
>
>
>
>>
> detached her from Gruffudd Vychan she ended up in the right place. As for
> the other errors, they are from careless copying, I'm afraid. It should
> have looked like this.
>
> Gruffydd ap Llewelyn
> Catherine ferch Gruffyd
> Iorwerth Foel
> Gruffydd ap Iorwerth
> Llwelyn Ddu ap Gruffydd
> Angharad ferch Llywellyn Ddu
> Margaret Hanmer
>
>
>
>>
>> > Llywelyn Mawr
>> > Angharad ferch Llywelyn Mawr
>> > Elena ferch Maelgwn
>> > Owen ap Meredith
>> > Llewelyn ab Owen
>> > Thomas ap Llywelyn
>> > Eleanor ferch Thomas
>> > Owain Glyndwr
>>
>> This one breaks after the third generation. Owain ap Maredudd was son of
>> Maredudd ap Owain, who married Elinor ferch Maelgwn, but Owain's mother was
>> a different woman of Maredudd's.
>>
>> > Angharad ferch Llywelyn Mawr
>> > Elena ferch Maelgwn
>> > Owen ap Meredith
>> > Llewelyn ab Owen
>> > Thomas ap Llywelyn
>> > Eleanor ferch Thomas
>> > Owain Glyndwr
>>
>> This one breaks after the third generation. Owain ap Maredudd was son of
>> Maredudd ap Owain, who married Elinor ferch Maelgwn, but Owain's mother was
>> a different woman of Maredudd's.
>>
>> http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/5547/R
>> hys%20ap%20Tewdwr%206.png
>>
>>
>>
> Again, thanks; this is helpful. I will shift his mother to the daughter of
> Thomas ap Rhodri and Margred ferch Einion.
>
>
>> hys%20ap%20Tewdwr%206.png
>>
>>
>>
> Again, thanks; this is helpful. I will shift his mother to the daughter of
> Thomas ap Rhodri and Margred ferch Einion.
>
>
>> > Here's one I've never explored because I have the feeling
>> > it is off. Still, might be worth a look
>> >
>> > Llywelyn Mawr
>> > Dafydd ap Llywelyn Mawr
>> > Llewelyn ap Dafydd
>> > Cynwrig ap Llywelyn
>> > Dafydd Llwyd
>> > Mawd ferch Dafydd
>> > Ieuan Goch
>> > Morfudd ferch Ieuan
>> > Marsli ferch Maredudd
>> > NN verch Cynwrig
>> > Gwenhwyfar ferch Ednyfed
>> > Agnes ferch Dafydd
>> > David Hanmer
>>
>> I can't confirm its truth, but it matches Bartrum.
>>
>> taf
>>
>> > it is off. Still, might be worth a look
>> >
>> > Llywelyn Mawr
>> > Dafydd ap Llywelyn Mawr
>> > Llewelyn ap Dafydd
>> > Cynwrig ap Llywelyn
>> > Dafydd Llwyd
>> > Mawd ferch Dafydd
>> > Ieuan Goch
>> > Morfudd ferch Ieuan
>> > Marsli ferch Maredudd
>> > NN verch Cynwrig
>> > Gwenhwyfar ferch Ednyfed
>> > Agnes ferch Dafydd
>> > David Hanmer
>>
>> I can't confirm its truth, but it matches Bartrum.
>>
>> taf
>>
taf
Feb 17, 2017, 5:08:28 PM2/17/17
to
On Friday, February 17, 2017 at 1:15:26 PM UTC-8, mk wrote:
> Looking again at Elena ferch Maelgwyn, what do you make of this mostly
> female line?
>
> Angharad ferch Llywelyn Mawr
> Elena ferch Maelgwyn
> Gwenllian ferch Cynan
> Philippa verch Gruffudd Llwyd
> Cynwrig ap Bleddyn
> NN ferch Cynwrig
> Gwenhwyfar ferch Ednyfed
> Agnes ferch Dafydd
> David Hanmer
Maelgwyn had two daughters named Elinor, but neither married (or had children by) a Cynan. Likewise, Bartrum shows no wife for the Cynan who was father of Gwenllian.
> Looking again at Elena ferch Maelgwyn, what do you make of this mostly
> female line?
>
> Angharad ferch Llywelyn Mawr
> Elena ferch Maelgwyn
> Gwenllian ferch Cynan
> Philippa verch Gruffudd Llwyd
> Cynwrig ap Bleddyn
> NN ferch Cynwrig
> Gwenhwyfar ferch Ednyfed
> Agnes ferch Dafydd
> David Hanmer
The latter part of this confuses two kinsmen of the same name. The Bleddyn who was father of Cynwrig was Bleddyn ap Ithel ap Blethyn ap Ithel Llwyd. The Bleddyn who married Philippa was Bleddyn ap Ithel Fychan ap Ithel Llwyd
taf
taf
Feb 17, 2017, 5:13:57 PM2/17/17
to
On Friday, February 17, 2017 at 2:08:28 PM UTC-8, taf wrote:
> On Friday, February 17, 2017 at 1:15:26 PM UTC-8, mk wrote:
> > Looking again at Elena ferch Maelgwyn, what do you make of this mostly
> > female line?
> >
> > Angharad ferch Llywelyn Mawr
> > Elena ferch Maelgwyn
> > Gwenllian ferch Cynan
> On Friday, February 17, 2017 at 1:15:26 PM UTC-8, mk wrote:
> > Looking again at Elena ferch Maelgwyn, what do you make of this mostly
> > female line?
> >
> > Angharad ferch Llywelyn Mawr
> > Elena ferch Maelgwyn
> > Gwenllian ferch Cynan
> Maelgwyn had two daughters named Elinor, but neither married (or
> had children by) a Cynan. Likewise, Bartrum shows no wife for
> the Cynan who was father of Gwenllian.
>
Oh, wait - now I see what you have done. You have accidentally left out a generation. Gwenllian ferch Cynan was daughter of Cynan ap Maredudd, son of Maredudd ap Owain, who was with one of the Elinors. However, based on Barton there is no indication whether Cynan's mother was Elinor, or if it was one of Maredudd's other women.
> had children by) a Cynan. Likewise, Bartrum shows no wife for
> the Cynan who was father of Gwenllian.
>
taf
Douglas Richardson
Feb 17, 2017, 5:19:20 PM2/17/17
to
Dear John ~
This past year I reviewed the evidence that you and Janet Wolfe have previously presented on the newsgroup regarding the Craighead-Hart-Mowat connection. I believe the connection is sound.
In my humble opinion, you and Janet have done a superb job of research. Thanks for sharing your findings with the newsgroup.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
This past year I reviewed the evidence that you and Janet Wolfe have previously presented on the newsgroup regarding the Craighead-Hart-Mowat connection. I believe the connection is sound.
In my humble opinion, you and Janet have done a superb job of research. Thanks for sharing your findings with the newsgroup.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Henry Soszynski
Feb 17, 2017, 6:54:04 PM2/17/17
to
On Fri, 17 Feb 2017 09:39:04 -0500, mk <monica....@gmail.com>
wrote:
SNIP
above, or Mawd ferch Llywelyn ap Dafydd Llwyd ap Llewelyn. I don't
know whether the Dafydd Llwyd is the same in both instances. I haven't
researched it either. Though I suspect the chronology is too tight for
the line above.
Cheers,
Henry Soszynski
wrote:
SNIP
>
>Here's one I've never explored because I have the feeling it is off. Still,
>might be worth a look
>
>Llywelyn Mawr
>Dafydd ap Llywelyn Mawr
>Llewelyn ap Dafydd
>Cynwrig ap Llywelyn
>Dafydd Llwyd
>Mawd ferch Dafydd
or Mawd ferch Llywelyn
>Here's one I've never explored because I have the feeling it is off. Still,
>might be worth a look
>
>Llywelyn Mawr
>Dafydd ap Llywelyn Mawr
>Llewelyn ap Dafydd
>Cynwrig ap Llywelyn
>Dafydd Llwyd
>Mawd ferch Dafydd
>Ieuan Goch
>Morfudd ferch Ieuan
>Marsli ferch Maredudd
>NN verch Cynwrig
>Gwenhwyfar ferch Ednyfed
>Agnes ferch Dafydd
>David Hanmer
>[as first line]
>
Ieuan Goch's mother is given as either Mawd ferch Dafydd Llwyd as
>Morfudd ferch Ieuan
>Marsli ferch Maredudd
>NN verch Cynwrig
>Gwenhwyfar ferch Ednyfed
>Agnes ferch Dafydd
>David Hanmer
>[as first line]
>
above, or Mawd ferch Llywelyn ap Dafydd Llwyd ap Llewelyn. I don't
know whether the Dafydd Llwyd is the same in both instances. I haven't
researched it either. Though I suspect the chronology is too tight for
the line above.
Cheers,
Henry Soszynski
joe...@gmail.com
Feb 17, 2017, 7:40:03 PM2/17/17
to
On Friday, February 17, 2017 at 7:30:46 AM UTC-5, Paulo Canedo wrote:
> I heard that there is a bit of controversy about the paternity of Isabella who married Thomas Shirley, some say that she was a ilegitimate daughter of Alice de Audley by Hugh de Meynell, others say that she was a legitimate daughter of Alice de Audley by her husband Ralph Bassett and if the second opinion is true then this line to Thomas Dudley breaks here what is your opinion about this controversy fellow genealogists.
Douglas Richardson posted:
"That Isabel de Shirley was Alice de Audley's daughter by her Meynell
> marriage is proven by a later dispensation for marriage between one of
> Isabel's Shirley descendants and one of her half-brother, Richard
> Meynell's descendants. If you work out the relationship stated in
> the dispensation, it agrees with Isabel having been a sister or
> half-sister of Richard Meynell. In fact, this is no other apparent
> relationship between the ancestry of the two parties, except through
> the Meynell family. Furthermore, it may be noted that Isabel named a
> son, Hugh, doubtless in honor of her father, Sir Hugh de Meynell.
>
> Given the various facts stated above, it is evident that Isabel, wife
> successively of Shirley, Wodhull, and Braybrook, was the daughter of
> Sir Hugh de Meynell, by Alice de Audley, and thus was a legitimate
> half-sister of Ralph Basset, last Lord Basset of Drayton Basset."
> I heard that there is a bit of controversy about the paternity of Isabella who married Thomas Shirley, some say that she was a ilegitimate daughter of Alice de Audley by Hugh de Meynell, others say that she was a legitimate daughter of Alice de Audley by her husband Ralph Bassett and if the second opinion is true then this line to Thomas Dudley breaks here what is your opinion about this controversy fellow genealogists.
Douglas Richardson posted:
"That Isabel de Shirley was Alice de Audley's daughter by her Meynell
> marriage is proven by a later dispensation for marriage between one of
> Isabel's Shirley descendants and one of her half-brother, Richard
> Meynell's descendants. If you work out the relationship stated in
> the dispensation, it agrees with Isabel having been a sister or
> half-sister of Richard Meynell. In fact, this is no other apparent
> relationship between the ancestry of the two parties, except through
> the Meynell family. Furthermore, it may be noted that Isabel named a
> son, Hugh, doubtless in honor of her father, Sir Hugh de Meynell.
>
> Given the various facts stated above, it is evident that Isabel, wife
> successively of Shirley, Wodhull, and Braybrook, was the daughter of
> Sir Hugh de Meynell, by Alice de Audley, and thus was a legitimate
> half-sister of Ralph Basset, last Lord Basset of Drayton Basset."
Message has been deleted
Chuck Owens
Feb 17, 2017, 10:41:00 PM2/17/17
to
Here is one of my lines:
Llywelyn "the Great" Ap Iowerth Prince of North Wales
Gladys Dhu "the dark"
Roger de Mortimer 6th Baron Mortimer of Wigmore
Isabella de Mortimer
Richard Fitz Alan Sir, Earl of Arundel, Lord of Clun & Oswestry
Edmund Fitz Alan Sir, 8th Earl of Arundel
Richard (II) Fitz Alan 10th Earl of Arundel, 9th Earl of Surrey
Alice Fitz Alan Lady
Margaret de Holand Lady
Joanna "Joan" Beaufort Queen Dowager of Scotland
John Stewart Sir, of Balvany, 1st Earl of Atholl
Elizabeth Stewart Lady
Gilbert Gray of Buttergask
Patrick Gray 4th Lord Gray
Isobel Gray
Alexander Falconer Sir
John Falconer Sir, Master of the Mint in Scotland
David Falconar
Alexander Falconar (immigrant to Maryland from Scotland)
Samuel Falconer
Eleanor Falconer
Allen Ramsay
Elizabeth Ramsay
John William Thompson
William Cecil Thompson
Mary Eleanora Thompson
My Mother
Charles Owens
Chuck
Llywelyn "the Great" Ap Iowerth Prince of North Wales
Gladys Dhu "the dark"
Roger de Mortimer 6th Baron Mortimer of Wigmore
Isabella de Mortimer
Richard Fitz Alan Sir, Earl of Arundel, Lord of Clun & Oswestry
Edmund Fitz Alan Sir, 8th Earl of Arundel
Richard (II) Fitz Alan 10th Earl of Arundel, 9th Earl of Surrey
Alice Fitz Alan Lady
Margaret de Holand Lady
Joanna "Joan" Beaufort Queen Dowager of Scotland
John Stewart Sir, of Balvany, 1st Earl of Atholl
Elizabeth Stewart Lady
Gilbert Gray of Buttergask
Patrick Gray 4th Lord Gray
Isobel Gray
Alexander Falconer Sir
John Falconer Sir, Master of the Mint in Scotland
David Falconar
Alexander Falconar (immigrant to Maryland from Scotland)
Samuel Falconer
Eleanor Falconer
Allen Ramsay
Elizabeth Ramsay
John William Thompson
William Cecil Thompson
Mary Eleanora Thompson
My Mother
Charles Owens
Chuck
Lyn Wolf
Feb 17, 2017, 10:48:39 PM2/17/17
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
On Thursday, February 16, 2017 at 12:02:22 PM UTC-7, mk wrote:
> would you be interested in a line that is not new world?
Absolutely. I never met a record I didn't like.
DR
These are my lines to Robert Allington and Margaret Coningsby, 8th great
grandparents
of my immigrant 3x great grandmother, Hannah Hagger. Hannah arrived in
Australia
in 1853.
Llywelyn ap Iorwerth
Margaret verch Llwelyn = John de Braose
Richard de Braose = Alice le Rus
Richard de Braose = Alianore de Shelton
Richard de Braose = Katherine
Eleanor de Braose = John Wingfield
Katherine Wingfield = Michael de la Pole
Thomas de la Pole = Anne Cheney
Katherine de la Pole = Myles Stapelton
Elizabeth Stapleton = William Cathorpe
Anne Calthorpe = Robert Drury
Ursula Drury = Giles Allington
Robert Allington = Margaret Coningsby
Llywelyn ap Iorwerth
Margaret verch Llwelyn = Walter de Clifford
Maud de Clifford = John Giffard
Eleanor Giffard = Fulke le Strange
John le Strange = Ankaret le Boteler
Eleanor le Strange = Reynold de Grey
Edith [Ida] de Grey = John Cockayne
Eleanor Giffard = Fulke le Strange
John le Strange = Ankaret le Boteler
Eleanor le Strange = Reynold de Grey
Elizabeth Cockayne = Lawrence Cheney
Maria Cheney = John Alyington
William Alyington = Elizabeth Wentworth
Gyles Alyington = Mary Gardiner
Giles Allington = Ursula Drury
Robert Allington = Margaret Coningsby
Llywelyn ap Iorwerth
Margaret verch Llwelyn = Walter de Clifford
Maud de Clifford = John Giffard
Eleanor Giffard = Fulke le Strange
Elizabeth le Strange = Robert Corbet
Roger Corbet = Margaret de Erdington
Robert Corbet = Margaret
Blanche Corbet = Humphrey Coningsby
Eleanor Giffard = Fulke le Strange
Elizabeth le Strange = Robert Corbet
Roger Corbet = Margaret de Erdington
Robert Corbet = Margaret
Humphrey Coningsby = Alice Fereby
William Coningsby = Beatrix Thursby
Margaret Coningsby = Robert Allington
Llywelyn ap Iorwerth = Joan of England
Roger de Mortimer = Maud de Braose
Isabella de Mortimer = John FitzAlan
Maud FitzAlan = Philip Burnell
Isabella de Mortimer = John FitzAlan
Maud Burnell = John Lovel
Isabel Lovel = William Calthorpe
Oliver Calthorpe = Isabel Bacon
William Calthorpe = Eleanor de Mauteby
John Calthorpe = Anne Wythe
William Calthorpe = Elizabeth Stapelton
Anne Calthorpe = Robert Drury
Ursula Drury = Giles Allington
Robert Allington = Margaret Coningsby
Llywelyn ap Iorwerth = Joan of England
Roger de Mortimer = Maud de Braose
Isabella de Mortimer = John FitzAlan
Maud FitzAlan = Philip Burnell
Isabella de Mortimer = John FitzAlan
Maud Burnell = John Lovel
Isabel Lovel = William Calthorpe
Oliver Calthorpe = Isabel Bacon
William Calthorpe = Eleanor de Mauteby
Margery Calthorpe = John Argentein
Elizabeth Argentein = William Alyington
John Alyington = Maria Cheney
William Alyington = Elizabeth Wentworth
Gyles Alyington = Mary Gardiner
Giles Allington = Ursula Drury
Robert Allington = Margaret Coningsby
Any corrections or additions, etc, most welcome.
Lyn Wolf
Australia
mk
Feb 18, 2017, 12:39:46 PM2/18/17
to taf, GenMedieval
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>
Thanks again, Taf. I see these lines need a lot of work. I have been
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>
putting it off as I find the Welsh side confusing. I think there are many
solid lines here, but some of the lesser travelled lines need to be
revisited.
Re Maredudd ap Owain, I also have him with a daughter Gwladus who marries a
Maredudd ap Llywelyn and is ancestral to David Hanmer. And a son Owen whose
son marries Eleanor de Bar, great grandmother of Owen Glyndwr. Are these
correct? I have their mother as a daughter of Thomas ap Rhodri, but am
wondering now if that is known.
What are the best sources to check for this?
Best,
MK
Patricia Junkin
Feb 18, 2017, 12:45:55 PM2/18/17
to mk, taf, GenMedieval
Thank you for this. I descend from Nicholas Hamner/Hanmer who died in 1703 James Cittee County. There is some evidence he was the brother of Humphrey Hamner whose birth is recorded in the register of Hamner, Flintshire. Sadly, much of Humphrey Hanmer's will is lost. He did leave plate to the church at Poquoson, VA. Has anyone researched this connection?
Pat
Sent from my iPhone
> On Feb 18, 2017, at 11:39 AM, mk <monica....@gmail.com> wrote:
Pat
Sent from my iPhone
> On Feb 18, 2017, at 11:39 AM, mk <monica....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> -------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
>> GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>>
>
>
>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
>> GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>>
>
>
> Thanks again, Taf. I see these lines need a lot of work. I have been
> putting it off as I find the Welsh side confusing. I think there are many
> solid lines here, but some of the lesser travelled lines need to be
> revisited.
>
> Re Maredudd ap Owain, I also have him with a daughter Gwladus who marries a
> Maredudd ap Llywelyn and is ancestral to David Hanmer. And a son Owen whose
> son marries Eleanor de Bar, great grandmother of Owen Glyndwr. Are these
> correct? I have their mother as a daughter of Thomas ap Rhodri, but am
> wondering now if that is known.
>
> What are the best sources to check for this?
>
> Best,
>
> MK
>
> putting it off as I find the Welsh side confusing. I think there are many
> solid lines here, but some of the lesser travelled lines need to be
> revisited.
>
> Re Maredudd ap Owain, I also have him with a daughter Gwladus who marries a
> Maredudd ap Llywelyn and is ancestral to David Hanmer. And a son Owen whose
> son marries Eleanor de Bar, great grandmother of Owen Glyndwr. Are these
> correct? I have their mother as a daughter of Thomas ap Rhodri, but am
> wondering now if that is known.
>
> What are the best sources to check for this?
>
> Best,
>
> MK
>
taf
Feb 18, 2017, 1:21:31 PM2/18/17
to
On Saturday, February 18, 2017 at 9:39:46 AM UTC-8, mk wrote:
> Re Maredudd ap Owain, I also have him with a daughter Gwladus who marries a
> Maredudd ap Llywelyn and is ancestral to David Hanmer. And a son Owen whose
> son marries Eleanor de Bar, great grandmother of Owen Glyndwr. Are these
> correct? I have their mother as a daughter of Thomas ap Rhodri, but am
> wondering now if that is known.
>
> What are the best sources to check for this?
The Bartrum site is the place to go for these, but it is currently down so I can't check.
> Re Maredudd ap Owain, I also have him with a daughter Gwladus who marries a
> Maredudd ap Llywelyn and is ancestral to David Hanmer. And a son Owen whose
> son marries Eleanor de Bar, great grandmother of Owen Glyndwr. Are these
> correct? I have their mother as a daughter of Thomas ap Rhodri, but am
> wondering now if that is known.
>
> What are the best sources to check for this?
taf
Tim Forsythe
Feb 18, 2017, 1:43:34 PM2/18/17
to
Here is what I have for the Claypools. Ancestral Roots says the mother of Gwladus Dhu is Tangwystl, but I see a lot of line showing Joan of England. Is AR wrong?
Llewellyn ap Iorwerth m. Tangwystl
Gwladus Dhu m. Ralph de Mortimer
Roger de Mortimer m. Maud de Braiose
Isabel de Mortimer m. John fitz Alan, Earl of Arundel
Richard fitz Alan, Earl of Arundel m. Alasia de Saluzzo
Edmund fitz Alan, 8th Earl of Arundel m. Alice de Warenne
Richard fitz Alan, 9th Earl of Arundel m. Eleanor Plantagenet
Richard fitz Alan, 10th Earl of Arundel m. Elizabeth de Bohun
Elizabeth D’Arundelle m. Sir Robert Goushill
Elizabeth Goushill m. Sir Robert Wingfield
Henry Wingfield m. Elizabeth Rokes
Robert Wingfield m. Margery Quarles
Robert Wingfield m. Elizabeth Cecil
Dorothy Wingfield m. Adam Claypoole
John Claypole m. Mary Angell
Norton and James Claypole
Llewellyn ap Iorwerth m. Tangwystl
Gwladus Dhu m. Ralph de Mortimer
Roger de Mortimer m. Maud de Braiose
Isabel de Mortimer m. John fitz Alan, Earl of Arundel
Richard fitz Alan, Earl of Arundel m. Alasia de Saluzzo
Edmund fitz Alan, 8th Earl of Arundel m. Alice de Warenne
Richard fitz Alan, 9th Earl of Arundel m. Eleanor Plantagenet
Richard fitz Alan, 10th Earl of Arundel m. Elizabeth de Bohun
Elizabeth D’Arundelle m. Sir Robert Goushill
Elizabeth Goushill m. Sir Robert Wingfield
Henry Wingfield m. Elizabeth Rokes
Robert Wingfield m. Margery Quarles
Robert Wingfield m. Elizabeth Cecil
Dorothy Wingfield m. Adam Claypoole
John Claypole m. Mary Angell
Norton and James Claypole
Paulo Canedo
Feb 18, 2017, 1:47:59 PM2/18/17
to
Jan Wolfe
Feb 18, 2017, 2:03:48 PM2/18/17
to
On Saturday, February 18, 2017 at 1:47:59 PM UTC-5, Paulo Canedo wrote:
> Em sábado, 18 de fevereiro de 2017 18:43:34 UTC, Tim Forsythe escreveu:
> > Here is what I have for the Claypools. Ancestral Roots says the mother of Gwladus Dhu is Tangwystl, but I see a lot of line showing Joan of England. Is AR wrong?
...
> Em sábado, 18 de fevereiro de 2017 18:43:34 UTC, Tim Forsythe escreveu:
> > Here is what I have for the Claypools. Ancestral Roots says the mother of Gwladus Dhu is Tangwystl, but I see a lot of line showing Joan of England. Is AR wrong?
> Gwladys's mother is uncertain but it was more likely Joan since Joan gave Gwladys lands.
Thanks for providing this reason. When were the lands given and under what circumstances? If Gwladys was born after Llewellyn and Joan were married in 1205, it seems that she would have been rather young when she married Reginald de Braose. Are there some documents about that marriage? Reginald was not a young man at the time of the marriage.
gdco...@gmail.com
Feb 18, 2017, 3:47:37 PM2/18/17
to
In my database, it appears that Thomas Bradbury has at least three descents from Llywelyn, and Rev. Wm Skepper has four. I'll post those when I work out how to extract them easily from TMG.
Greg Cooke
Greg Cooke
Paulo Canedo
Feb 18, 2017, 5:07:58 PM2/18/17
to
I don't know the source that talks about the lands. Wikipedia says that some authors say that but don't specify whom exactly.
gdco...@gmail.com
Feb 18, 2017, 9:27:06 PM2/18/17
to
Here's what I have for Wm Skepper. I hope this makes sense.
1 Llywelyn ap Iorwerth m. Joan of England
2 Wales, Gwladus Ddu m. Sir Reginald de Braose, Knt.,
3 Mortimer, Roger de Sir, Knt. m. Maud de Braose
4 Mortimer, Isabel de m. John Fitz Alan
5 Arundel, Richard de m. Alice de Saluzzo
6 Arundel, Eleanor de m. Sir Henry de Percy, Knt.
7 Percy, Henry de Sir, Knt m. Idoine de Clifford
8 Percy, Henry de Sir, Knt m. Mary of Lancaster
9 Percy, Henry Sir, K. G m. Margaret de Neville
10 Percy, Henry Sir, Knt. m. Elizabeth Mortimer
11 Percy, Elizabeth m. Sir John de Clifford, K. G.
12 Clifford, Mary m. Sir Phillip Wentworth, Knt.
13 Wentworth, Elizabeth m. Sir Martin de la See, Knt.
14 See, Joan de la m. Sir Peter Hildyard, Knt.
15 Hildyard, Isabel m. Ralph Legard
16 Legard, Joan m. Robert Townley
17 Skepper, Edward m. Mary Robinson
18 Rev William Skepper
See 3
5a Mortimer, Edmund de Sir, Knt., m. Margaret de Fiennes,
6a Mortimer, Roger de Sir, Knt. m. Joan de Joinville
7a Mortimer, Katharine de m. Sir Thomas Beauchamp K. G.
8a Beauchamp, Philippe de m. Hugh de Stafford
9a Stafford, Katherine m. Michael de la Pole
10a Pole, Isabel de la m. Sir Thomas Morely, Knt.
11a Morley, Anne m. John Hastings
12a Hastings, Elizabeth m. Sir Robert Hildyard, Knt.
13a Hildyard, Peter Sir, Knt. m. Joan de la See See 14
See 5a
6f Mortimer, Maud de m. Sir Thebaud de Verdun, Knt.
7f Verdun, Elizabeth de m. Sir Bartholomew de Burghersh,
8f Burghersh, Bartholomew de Sir, m. Cicely de Weyland
9f Burghersh, Elizabeth de m. Sir Edward le Despenser, Knt.
10f Despenser, Anne le m. Sir Thomas Morely, Knt. See 8d
See 6a
7g Mortimer, Edmund de Sir, Knt. m. Elizabeth de Badlesmere
8g Mortimer, Roger de m. Philippe de Montagu
9g Mortimer, Edmund de Sir, Knt., m. Philippe of Clarence
10g Mortimer, Elizabeth m. Sir Henry Percy, Knt. See 10
See 7a
8h Beauchamp, Maud de m. Sir Roger de Clifford, Knt.
9h Clifford, Thomas de , 6th Lord m. Elizabeth de Roos See 9b
1c Llywelyn ap Iorwerth unknown
2c Margaret of Wales m. John de Brewes
3c Brewes, William de Sir, Knt., m. Mary de Roos
4c Brewes, Peter de Sir, Knt. m. Agnes de Clifford
5c Brewes, Margaret de m. Sir Thomas de Monthermer, Knt
6c Monthermer, Margaret de , Lady m. Sir John de Montagu, Knt.
7c Montagu, Ellen m. Sir John de Dinham, Knt.
8c Dinham, Muriel de m. Sir Edward Hastings, Knt.
9c Hastings, Edward Sir, Knt. m. Muriel de Dinham
10c Hastings, John m. Anne Morley See 11a
See 3c
4d Brewes, William de Sir, Knt. m. Agnes (---)
5d Brewes, Joan de m. Sir Richard Foliot, Knt.
6d Foliot, Margery m. Sir Hugh de Hastings, Knt.
7d Hastings, Hugh de Sir, Knt. m. Margaret de Everingham
8d Hastings, Hugh de Sir, Knt. m. Anne le Despenser See 10f
See 7d
8e Hastings, Joan m. Sir Thomas Morely, Knt.
9e Morely, Robert Sir, Knt. m. Isabel Moleyns
10e Morely, Thomas Sir, Knt. m. Isabel de la Pole See 10a
These next three descents are suspect, See RA 5:74n7,
correcting PA 670 (Stafford 10) & MCS 763 (Stafford 5)
See 3
4b Mortimer, Iseult de m. Sir Hugh de Audley, Knt.
5b Audley, Hugh de m. Margaret de Clare
6b Audley, Margaret de m. Sir Ralph de Stafford, K.G.
7b Stafford, Beatrice de m. Sir Thomas de Roos, Knt.
8b Roos, Elizabeth de m. Thomas de Clifford,
9b Clifford, John de Sir, K. G., m. Elizabeth Percy See 11
See 5b
5e Audley, Alice de m. Ralph de Neville
6e Neville, Margaret de m. Sir Henry Percy, See 9
See 6b
7i Stafford, Hugh de m. Philippe de Beauchamp See 8a
1 Llywelyn ap Iorwerth m. Joan of England
2 Wales, Gwladus Ddu m. Sir Reginald de Braose, Knt.,
3 Mortimer, Roger de Sir, Knt. m. Maud de Braose
4 Mortimer, Isabel de m. John Fitz Alan
5 Arundel, Richard de m. Alice de Saluzzo
6 Arundel, Eleanor de m. Sir Henry de Percy, Knt.
7 Percy, Henry de Sir, Knt m. Idoine de Clifford
8 Percy, Henry de Sir, Knt m. Mary of Lancaster
9 Percy, Henry Sir, K. G m. Margaret de Neville
10 Percy, Henry Sir, Knt. m. Elizabeth Mortimer
11 Percy, Elizabeth m. Sir John de Clifford, K. G.
12 Clifford, Mary m. Sir Phillip Wentworth, Knt.
13 Wentworth, Elizabeth m. Sir Martin de la See, Knt.
14 See, Joan de la m. Sir Peter Hildyard, Knt.
15 Hildyard, Isabel m. Ralph Legard
16 Legard, Joan m. Robert Townley
17 Skepper, Edward m. Mary Robinson
18 Rev William Skepper
See 3
5a Mortimer, Edmund de Sir, Knt., m. Margaret de Fiennes,
6a Mortimer, Roger de Sir, Knt. m. Joan de Joinville
7a Mortimer, Katharine de m. Sir Thomas Beauchamp K. G.
8a Beauchamp, Philippe de m. Hugh de Stafford
9a Stafford, Katherine m. Michael de la Pole
10a Pole, Isabel de la m. Sir Thomas Morely, Knt.
11a Morley, Anne m. John Hastings
12a Hastings, Elizabeth m. Sir Robert Hildyard, Knt.
13a Hildyard, Peter Sir, Knt. m. Joan de la See See 14
See 5a
6f Mortimer, Maud de m. Sir Thebaud de Verdun, Knt.
7f Verdun, Elizabeth de m. Sir Bartholomew de Burghersh,
8f Burghersh, Bartholomew de Sir, m. Cicely de Weyland
9f Burghersh, Elizabeth de m. Sir Edward le Despenser, Knt.
10f Despenser, Anne le m. Sir Thomas Morely, Knt. See 8d
See 6a
7g Mortimer, Edmund de Sir, Knt. m. Elizabeth de Badlesmere
8g Mortimer, Roger de m. Philippe de Montagu
9g Mortimer, Edmund de Sir, Knt., m. Philippe of Clarence
10g Mortimer, Elizabeth m. Sir Henry Percy, Knt. See 10
See 7a
8h Beauchamp, Maud de m. Sir Roger de Clifford, Knt.
9h Clifford, Thomas de , 6th Lord m. Elizabeth de Roos See 9b
1c Llywelyn ap Iorwerth unknown
2c Margaret of Wales m. John de Brewes
3c Brewes, William de Sir, Knt., m. Mary de Roos
4c Brewes, Peter de Sir, Knt. m. Agnes de Clifford
5c Brewes, Margaret de m. Sir Thomas de Monthermer, Knt
6c Monthermer, Margaret de , Lady m. Sir John de Montagu, Knt.
7c Montagu, Ellen m. Sir John de Dinham, Knt.
8c Dinham, Muriel de m. Sir Edward Hastings, Knt.
9c Hastings, Edward Sir, Knt. m. Muriel de Dinham
10c Hastings, John m. Anne Morley See 11a
See 3c
4d Brewes, William de Sir, Knt. m. Agnes (---)
5d Brewes, Joan de m. Sir Richard Foliot, Knt.
6d Foliot, Margery m. Sir Hugh de Hastings, Knt.
7d Hastings, Hugh de Sir, Knt. m. Margaret de Everingham
8d Hastings, Hugh de Sir, Knt. m. Anne le Despenser See 10f
See 7d
8e Hastings, Joan m. Sir Thomas Morely, Knt.
9e Morely, Robert Sir, Knt. m. Isabel Moleyns
10e Morely, Thomas Sir, Knt. m. Isabel de la Pole See 10a
These next three descents are suspect, See RA 5:74n7,
correcting PA 670 (Stafford 10) & MCS 763 (Stafford 5)
See 3
4b Mortimer, Iseult de m. Sir Hugh de Audley, Knt.
5b Audley, Hugh de m. Margaret de Clare
6b Audley, Margaret de m. Sir Ralph de Stafford, K.G.
7b Stafford, Beatrice de m. Sir Thomas de Roos, Knt.
8b Roos, Elizabeth de m. Thomas de Clifford,
9b Clifford, John de Sir, K. G., m. Elizabeth Percy See 11
See 5b
5e Audley, Alice de m. Ralph de Neville
6e Neville, Margaret de m. Sir Henry Percy, See 9
See 6b
7i Stafford, Hugh de m. Philippe de Beauchamp See 8a
gdco...@gmail.com
Feb 19, 2017, 12:29:44 AM2/19/17
to
Here are five descents (one suspect) for Thomas Bradbury (whose Dymoke/Fulnetby ancestry is only probable--NEHGR 161:27-36, unless someone has more recent research)
8 Percy, Isabel de m. Sir William de Aton, Knt.
9 Aton, Elizabeth de m. Sir John de Conyers, Knt.
10 Conyers, Robert , Esq. m. Isabel Pert
11 Conyers, Joan m. Sir Philip Dymoke, Knt.
12 Dymoke, Thomas Sir, Knt. m. Margaret Welles
13 Dymoke, Jane m. John Fulnetby
14 Fulnetby, Katherine m. William Dynewell
15 Dynewell, Anne m. Henry Whitgift
16 Whitgift, William m. Margaret Bell
17 Whitgift, Elizabeth m. Wymond Bradbury
18 Bradbury, Capt. Thomas m.
See 3
4a Mortimer, Edmund de Sir, Knt., m. Margaret de Fiennes
5a Mortimer, Roger de Sir, Knt. m. Joan de Joinville
6a Mortimer, Katharine de m. Sir Thomas Beauchamp K. G.
7a Beauchamp, Maud de m. Sir Roger de Clifford, Knt., 5
8a Clifford, Katherine de m. Sir Ralph Greystoke, Knt.
9a Greystoke, Maud m. Eudes Welles See 9c
See 5
6b Arundel, Alice de m. Sir Stephen de Segrave, Knt.,
7b Segrave, John de Sir, Knt. m. Margaret Marshal
8b Segrave, Elizabeth de m. John de Mowbray See 7c
1 Llywelyn ap Iorwerth m. unknown
2c Margaret of Wales m. Sir Walter de Clifford, Knt.
5c Brewes, Aline de m. Sir John de Mowbray, Knt.
6c Mowbray, John de Sir, Knt. m. Joan of Lancaster
7c Mowbray, John de m. Elizabeth de Segrave
8c Mowbray, Eleanor m. Sir John Welles, Knt.
9c Welles, Eudes m. Maud Greystoke
10c Welles, Lionel Sir, Knt. m. Joan Waterton
11c Welles, Margaret m. Dymoke, Sir Thomas See 12
This descent is suspect, see RA 5:74n7, correcting PA 670 (Stafford 10) & MCS 763 (Stafford 5)
See 3
4d Mortimer, Iseult de m. Sir Hugh de Audley, Knt.
5d Audley, Alice de m. Ralph de Greystoke
6d Greystoke, William de Sir, Knt m. Joan Fitz Hugh
7d Greystoke, Ralph Sir, Knt. m. Katherine de Clifford See 8a
It also appears there's a late connection to the St. Quintin's. I'll post that one tomorrow.
Greg
1 Llywelyn ap Iorwerth m. Joan of England
2 Wales, Gwladus Ddu m. Sir Reginald de Braose, Knt.,
3 Mortimer, Roger de Sir, Knt. m. Maud de Braose
4 Mortimer, Isabel de m. John Fitz Alan
5 Arundel, Richard de m. Alice de Saluzzo
6 Arundel, Eleanor de m. Sir Henry de Percy, Knt.
7 Percy, Henry de Sir, Knt., m. Idoine de Clifford
2 Wales, Gwladus Ddu m. Sir Reginald de Braose, Knt.,
3 Mortimer, Roger de Sir, Knt. m. Maud de Braose
4 Mortimer, Isabel de m. John Fitz Alan
5 Arundel, Richard de m. Alice de Saluzzo
6 Arundel, Eleanor de m. Sir Henry de Percy, Knt.
8 Percy, Isabel de m. Sir William de Aton, Knt.
9 Aton, Elizabeth de m. Sir John de Conyers, Knt.
10 Conyers, Robert , Esq. m. Isabel Pert
11 Conyers, Joan m. Sir Philip Dymoke, Knt.
12 Dymoke, Thomas Sir, Knt. m. Margaret Welles
13 Dymoke, Jane m. John Fulnetby
14 Fulnetby, Katherine m. William Dynewell
15 Dynewell, Anne m. Henry Whitgift
16 Whitgift, William m. Margaret Bell
17 Whitgift, Elizabeth m. Wymond Bradbury
18 Bradbury, Capt. Thomas m.
See 3
4a Mortimer, Edmund de Sir, Knt., m. Margaret de Fiennes
5a Mortimer, Roger de Sir, Knt. m. Joan de Joinville
6a Mortimer, Katharine de m. Sir Thomas Beauchamp K. G.
7a Beauchamp, Maud de m. Sir Roger de Clifford, Knt., 5
8a Clifford, Katherine de m. Sir Ralph Greystoke, Knt.
9a Greystoke, Maud m. Eudes Welles See 9c
See 5
6b Arundel, Alice de m. Sir Stephen de Segrave, Knt.,
7b Segrave, John de Sir, Knt. m. Margaret Marshal
8b Segrave, Elizabeth de m. John de Mowbray See 7c
1 Llywelyn ap Iorwerth m. unknown
2c Margaret of Wales m. Sir Walter de Clifford, Knt.
3c Brewes, William de Sir, Knt., m. Mary de Roos
4c Brewes, William de Sir, Knt. m. Agnes (---)
5c Brewes, Aline de m. Sir John de Mowbray, Knt.
6c Mowbray, John de Sir, Knt. m. Joan of Lancaster
7c Mowbray, John de m. Elizabeth de Segrave
8c Mowbray, Eleanor m. Sir John Welles, Knt.
9c Welles, Eudes m. Maud Greystoke
10c Welles, Lionel Sir, Knt. m. Joan Waterton
11c Welles, Margaret m. Dymoke, Sir Thomas See 12
This descent is suspect, see RA 5:74n7, correcting PA 670 (Stafford 10) & MCS 763 (Stafford 5)
See 3
4d Mortimer, Iseult de m. Sir Hugh de Audley, Knt.
5d Audley, Alice de m. Ralph de Greystoke
6d Greystoke, William de Sir, Knt m. Joan Fitz Hugh
7d Greystoke, Ralph Sir, Knt. m. Katherine de Clifford See 8a
It also appears there's a late connection to the St. Quintin's. I'll post that one tomorrow.
Greg
riemorese...@gmail.com
Feb 19, 2017, 11:36:23 AM2/19/17
to
This is one line I have, on the paternal side:
1. Llywelyn ap Iorwerth = Joan of England
2. Elen ferch Llywelyn = Robert de Quincy, Lord of Ware
3. Hawise or Margaret de Quincy = Baldwin Wake, Lord of Bourne
4. John Wake, 1st Baron Wake = Joan de Fiennes
5. Margaret Wake, Baroness Wake = Edmund of Woodstock, Earl of Kent
6. Joan, Countess of Kent = Thomas de Holand, 1st Earl of Kent
7. Thomas de Holand, 2nd Earl of Kent = Alice Fitzalan
8. Margaret de Holand = John Beaufort, Marquis of Dorset and Somerset
9. Joan Beaufort = (2) Sir James Stewart "the Black Knight of Lorn"
10. Sir John Stewart, Earl of Atholl = (2) Eleanor Sinclair of Orkney
11. Elizabeth Stewart (2) = Alexander Robertson, Baron of Struan
12. Alexander Robertson of Faskally = Elizabeth Hay
13. Elizabeth Robertson of Faskally = James Drummond of Cardney
14. Jane Drummond of Cardney = Patrick Inglis of Byres
15. Patrick Inglis of Byres = Elizabeth Bruce of Fingask
16. Patrick Inglis of Byres = Helen Hay of Kirkland
17. Helen Inglis, co-heiress of Byres (1) = Capt. John Robertson of Guay
18. Alexander Robertson of Riemore = (1) Janet Taus
19. John Robertson of Wester Riemore = Beatrice Robertson of Invervack
20. Charles Robertson = Jean Sim
21. Neil Robertson (1) = Amelia Young Jardine
22. Agnes Dick Robertson = James Chalmers Robertson (emigrated from Scotland to Canada, 1880, and to USA in 1883)
23. Margaret Geddes Robertson = Harry James Allardice Thompson
24. James Harry Thompson = (2) Leigh B. Coriell
25. James Wallace Thompson
1. Llywelyn ap Iorwerth = Joan of England
2. Elen ferch Llywelyn = Robert de Quincy, Lord of Ware
3. Hawise or Margaret de Quincy = Baldwin Wake, Lord of Bourne
4. John Wake, 1st Baron Wake = Joan de Fiennes
5. Margaret Wake, Baroness Wake = Edmund of Woodstock, Earl of Kent
6. Joan, Countess of Kent = Thomas de Holand, 1st Earl of Kent
7. Thomas de Holand, 2nd Earl of Kent = Alice Fitzalan
8. Margaret de Holand = John Beaufort, Marquis of Dorset and Somerset
9. Joan Beaufort = (2) Sir James Stewart "the Black Knight of Lorn"
10. Sir John Stewart, Earl of Atholl = (2) Eleanor Sinclair of Orkney
11. Elizabeth Stewart (2) = Alexander Robertson, Baron of Struan
12. Alexander Robertson of Faskally = Elizabeth Hay
13. Elizabeth Robertson of Faskally = James Drummond of Cardney
14. Jane Drummond of Cardney = Patrick Inglis of Byres
15. Patrick Inglis of Byres = Elizabeth Bruce of Fingask
16. Patrick Inglis of Byres = Helen Hay of Kirkland
17. Helen Inglis, co-heiress of Byres (1) = Capt. John Robertson of Guay
18. Alexander Robertson of Riemore = (1) Janet Taus
19. John Robertson of Wester Riemore = Beatrice Robertson of Invervack
20. Charles Robertson = Jean Sim
21. Neil Robertson (1) = Amelia Young Jardine
22. Agnes Dick Robertson = James Chalmers Robertson (emigrated from Scotland to Canada, 1880, and to USA in 1883)
23. Margaret Geddes Robertson = Harry James Allardice Thompson
24. James Harry Thompson = (2) Leigh B. Coriell
25. James Wallace Thompson
gdco...@gmail.com
Feb 19, 2017, 12:51:55 PM2/19/17
to
And finally, here is the descent from Llwelyn to my gr grandmother, an 1883 immigrant, and which also shows the connection to the St. Quintins, which may be of more interest here. :-)
1 Llywelyn ap Iorwerth m. Joan of England
2 Wales, Gwladus Ddu m. Sir Roger de Mortimer, Knt.
5 Mortimer, Roger de Sir, Knt. m. Joan de Joinville
6 Mortimer, Katharine de m. Sir Thomas Beauchamp K. G.
7 Beauchamp, Philippe de m. Hugh de Stafford
8 Stafford, Katherine m. Michael de la Pole
9 Pole, Isabel de la m. Sir Thomas Morely, Knt.
10 Morley, Anne m. John Hastings
11 Hastings, Hugh Sir, Knt. m. Ann Gascoigne
12 Hastings, Brian Sir, Knt. m. Agnes Portington
13 Hastings, Dorothy m. William St. Quintin
14 St. Quintin, Gabriel m. Dorothy Griffith
15 St. Quintin, George Sir Knt. m. Agnes Creyke
16 St. Quintin, William Sir, Knt. m. Mary Lacy
17 St. Quintin, Frances m. Colonel Francis Lascelles
18 Lascelles, Daniel m. Mary Lascelles
19 Lascelles, Edward m. Frances Ball
20 Lascelles, Francis General m. Ann Catley
21 Lascelles, Jane m. Montague John Wynyard
22 Wynyard, Mary Maria Hester m. Reverend John Higginson
23 Higginson, Matilda Caroline m. William Leonard Robinson
24 Mary Elizabeth Robinson m.
1a Llywelyn ap Iorwerth m. unknown
2a Margaret of Wales m. John de Brewes
3a Brewes, William de Sir, Knt., m. Mary de Roos (2nd wife)
4a Brewes, Peter de Sir, Knt. m. Agnes de Clifford
5a Brewes, Margaret de m. Sir Thomas de Monthermer
6a Monthermer, Margaret de , Lady m. Sir John de Montagu, Knt.
7a Montagu, Ellen m. Sir John de Dinham, Knt.
8a Dinham, Muriel de m. Sir Edward Hastings, Knt.
9a Hastings, John m. Anne Morley See 10
See 2a
3b Brewes, William de Sir, Knt., m. Aline de Multon (1st wife)
4b Brewes, William de Sir, Knt. m. Agnes (---)
5b Brewes, Joan de m. Sir Richard Foliot, Knt
6b Foliot, Margery m. Sir Hugh de Hastings, Knt.
7b Hastings, Hugh de Sir, Knt. m. Margaret de Everingham
8b Hastings, Joan m. Sir Thomas Morely, Knt.
9b Morely, Robert Sir, Knt. m. Isabel Moleyns
10b Morely, Thomas Sir, Knt. m. Isabel de la Pole See 9
See 4
5c Mortimer, Maud de m. Sir Thebaud de Verdun, Knt.
6c Verdun, Elizabeth de m. Sir Bartholomew de Burghersh,
7c Burghersh, Bartholomew de Sir, m. Cicely de Weyland
8c Burghersh, Elizabeth de m. Sir Edward le Despenser, Knt.
9c Despenser, Anne le m. Sir Hugh de Hastings, Knt.
10c Hastings, Edward Sir, Knt. m. Muriel de Dinham See 8a
See 7b
8d Hastings, Hugh de Sir, Knt. m. Anne le Despenser See 9c
See 3 This descent is suspect, see RA 5:74n7, correcting PA 670 (Stafford 10) & MCS 763 (Stafford 5)
4e Mortimer, Iseult de m. Sir Hugh de Audley, Knt.
5e Audley, Hugh de m. Margaret de Clare
6e Audley, Margaret de m. Sir Ralph de Stafford, K.G.
7e Stafford, Hugh de m. Philippe de Beauchamp See 7
1 Llywelyn ap Iorwerth m. Joan of England
3 Mortimer, Roger de Sir, Knt. m. Maud de Braose
4 Mortimer, Edmund de Sir, Knt., m. Margaret de Fiennes
5 Mortimer, Roger de Sir, Knt. m. Joan de Joinville
6 Mortimer, Katharine de m. Sir Thomas Beauchamp K. G.
7 Beauchamp, Philippe de m. Hugh de Stafford
8 Stafford, Katherine m. Michael de la Pole
9 Pole, Isabel de la m. Sir Thomas Morely, Knt.
10 Morley, Anne m. John Hastings
11 Hastings, Hugh Sir, Knt. m. Ann Gascoigne
12 Hastings, Brian Sir, Knt. m. Agnes Portington
13 Hastings, Dorothy m. William St. Quintin
14 St. Quintin, Gabriel m. Dorothy Griffith
15 St. Quintin, George Sir Knt. m. Agnes Creyke
16 St. Quintin, William Sir, Knt. m. Mary Lacy
17 St. Quintin, Frances m. Colonel Francis Lascelles
18 Lascelles, Daniel m. Mary Lascelles
19 Lascelles, Edward m. Frances Ball
20 Lascelles, Francis General m. Ann Catley
21 Lascelles, Jane m. Montague John Wynyard
22 Wynyard, Mary Maria Hester m. Reverend John Higginson
23 Higginson, Matilda Caroline m. William Leonard Robinson
24 Mary Elizabeth Robinson m.
1a Llywelyn ap Iorwerth m. unknown
2a Margaret of Wales m. John de Brewes
3a Brewes, William de Sir, Knt., m. Mary de Roos (2nd wife)
4a Brewes, Peter de Sir, Knt. m. Agnes de Clifford
5a Brewes, Margaret de m. Sir Thomas de Monthermer
6a Monthermer, Margaret de , Lady m. Sir John de Montagu, Knt.
7a Montagu, Ellen m. Sir John de Dinham, Knt.
8a Dinham, Muriel de m. Sir Edward Hastings, Knt.
9a Hastings, John m. Anne Morley See 10
See 2a
3b Brewes, William de Sir, Knt., m. Aline de Multon (1st wife)
4b Brewes, William de Sir, Knt. m. Agnes (---)
5b Brewes, Joan de m. Sir Richard Foliot, Knt
6b Foliot, Margery m. Sir Hugh de Hastings, Knt.
7b Hastings, Hugh de Sir, Knt. m. Margaret de Everingham
8b Hastings, Joan m. Sir Thomas Morely, Knt.
9b Morely, Robert Sir, Knt. m. Isabel Moleyns
10b Morely, Thomas Sir, Knt. m. Isabel de la Pole See 9
See 4
5c Mortimer, Maud de m. Sir Thebaud de Verdun, Knt.
6c Verdun, Elizabeth de m. Sir Bartholomew de Burghersh,
7c Burghersh, Bartholomew de Sir, m. Cicely de Weyland
8c Burghersh, Elizabeth de m. Sir Edward le Despenser, Knt.
9c Despenser, Anne le m. Sir Hugh de Hastings, Knt.
10c Hastings, Edward Sir, Knt. m. Muriel de Dinham See 8a
See 7b
8d Hastings, Hugh de Sir, Knt. m. Anne le Despenser See 9c
See 3 This descent is suspect, see RA 5:74n7, correcting PA 670 (Stafford 10) & MCS 763 (Stafford 5)
4e Mortimer, Iseult de m. Sir Hugh de Audley, Knt.
5e Audley, Hugh de m. Margaret de Clare
6e Audley, Margaret de m. Sir Ralph de Stafford, K.G.
7e Stafford, Hugh de m. Philippe de Beauchamp See 7
Vivien
Feb 19, 2017, 2:34:31 PM2/19/17
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I have many descents from Llywelyn Fawr, here is one:
Llywelyn Fawr d 1240 - Joan of England
Elen ferch Llywelyn of Wales - Robert de Quincy
Hawise/Margaret de Quincy - Baldwin Wake
John Wake - Joan de Fiennes
Margaret Wake - Edmund of Woodstock
Joan the Fair Maid of Kent - Thomas de Holand
Thomas de Holand - Lady Alice Fitzalan
Lady Margaret de Holand - John Beaufort
Joan Beaufort - James Stewart "The Black Knight of Lorne"
James Stewart, 1st Earl of Buuchan - Mrs. Margaret Murray
Agnes Stewart - Alexander Home,3rd Lord Holm
Janet Home - John Hamilton, of Clydesdale
Margaret Hamilton - David Douglas, 7th Earl of Angus
Lady Margaret Douglas - Walter Scott of Buccleuch
Walter Scott, 1st Baron Scott of Buccleuch- Mary/Margaret Kerr
Walter Scott - NN
Francis Scott - NN
Elizabeth Scott - John Scott of Ancrum
Margaret Scott - John Murray of Bowhill
John Murray of Unthank - Ann Bennet
John Murray - Mary Boyles
Ann Murray - William Dummer Powell
Ann Murray was born in England in 1755 and emigrated to Boston while in her teens. Her uncle James Murray, with whom many of you are more familiar, is the ancestor of Franklin Delano Roosevelt. Ann Murray is my 4th great Grandmother.
Cheers
Vivien
Llywelyn Fawr d 1240 - Joan of England
Elen ferch Llywelyn of Wales - Robert de Quincy
Hawise/Margaret de Quincy - Baldwin Wake
John Wake - Joan de Fiennes
Margaret Wake - Edmund of Woodstock
Joan the Fair Maid of Kent - Thomas de Holand
Thomas de Holand - Lady Alice Fitzalan
Lady Margaret de Holand - John Beaufort
Joan Beaufort - James Stewart "The Black Knight of Lorne"
James Stewart, 1st Earl of Buuchan - Mrs. Margaret Murray
Agnes Stewart - Alexander Home,3rd Lord Holm
Janet Home - John Hamilton, of Clydesdale
Margaret Hamilton - David Douglas, 7th Earl of Angus
Lady Margaret Douglas - Walter Scott of Buccleuch
Walter Scott, 1st Baron Scott of Buccleuch- Mary/Margaret Kerr
Walter Scott - NN
Francis Scott - NN
Elizabeth Scott - John Scott of Ancrum
Margaret Scott - John Murray of Bowhill
John Murray of Unthank - Ann Bennet
John Murray - Mary Boyles
Ann Murray - William Dummer Powell
Ann Murray was born in England in 1755 and emigrated to Boston while in her teens. Her uncle James Murray, with whom many of you are more familiar, is the ancestor of Franklin Delano Roosevelt. Ann Murray is my 4th great Grandmother.
Cheers
Vivien
Angela Trigg
Feb 28, 2017, 1:26:15 PM2/28/17
to
The one I'm sure about is:
1. Llywelyn ap Iorwerth = Joan of England
2. Elen ferch Llywelyn = Robert de Quincy, Lord of Ware
3. Hawise or Margaret de Quincy = Baldwin Wake, Lord of Bourne
4. John Wake, 1st Baron Wake = Joan de Fiennes
5. Margaret Wake, Baroness Wake = Edmund of Woodstock, Earl of Kent
6. Joan, Countess of Kent = Thomas de Holand, 1st Earl of Kent
7. Thomas de Holand, 2nd Earl of Kent = Alice Fitzalan
8. Margaret de Holand = John Beaufort, Marquis of Dorset and Somerset
9. Edmund Beaufort, 2nd Duke of Somerset = Eleanor Beauchamp
10. Margaret Beaufort = Humphrey Stafford
11. Henry Stafford, 2nd Duke of Buckingham = Katherine Woodville
12. Edward Stafford, 3rd Duke of Buckingham = Eleanor Percy
13. Mary Stafford = George Neville, 5th and de jure 3rd Lord of Abergavenny
14. Ursula Neville = Warham St. Leger
15. Anthony St. Leger = Mary Scott
16. Warham St. Leger = Mary Hayward
17. Ursula St. Leger = Rev. Daniel Horsmanden
18. Warham St. Leger Horsmanden (immigrant) = Susanna Beeching
19. Mary Horsmanden = Col. William Evelyn Byrd
20. Col. William Byrd = Marion Tylor
21. Col. William Byrd = Elizabeth Hill Carter
22. Francis Otway Byrd = Anne Ursula Munford
23. Elizabeth Byrd = Dr. Alexander Tompkins
24. Anne Munford Tompkins = Dr. Daniel Trigg (my 3rd great grandfather)
If the link to Gov. Thomas Dudley with the Sutton Dudleys is proven well enough, I'm related that way too.
I'm also still unsure about the Jean Robertson connection to the Robertsons of Struan (it seems to be linked via secondary sources, as far as I can tell?), but if that's true, then:
1. Llywelyn ap Iorwerth = Joan of England
2. Elen ferch Llywelyn = Robert de Quincy, Lord of Ware
3. Hawise or Margaret de Quincy = Baldwin Wake, Lord of Bourne
4. John Wake, 1st Baron Wake = Joan de Fiennes
5. Margaret Wake, Baroness Wake = Edmund of Woodstock, Earl of Kent
6. Joan, Countess of Kent = Thomas de Holand, 1st Earl of Kent
7. Thomas de Holand, 2nd Earl of Kent = Alice Fitzalan
8. Margaret de Holand = John Beaufort, Marquis of Dorset and Somerset
9. Joan Beaufort = (2) Sir James Stewart "the Black Knight of Lorn"
10. Sir John Stewart, Earl of Atholl = (2) Eleanor Sinclair of Orkney
11. Elizabeth Stewart (2) = Alexander Robertson, Baron of Struan
12. John Robertson of Muirton = Margaret Crichton
13. Gilbert Robertson of Muirton = Janet Reid
14. David Robertson of Muirton = ___ Innes
15. William Robertson of Muirton = Isabel Petrie
16. William Robertson of Gladney = Margaret Mitchell
17. Jean (Jane) Robertson = Alexander Patrick Henry
18. Col. John Henry (immigrant) = Sarah Winston
19. Lucy Henry (Patrick Henry's sister) = Valentine Wood
20. Mary Wood = Judge Peter Johnston
21. John Warfield Johnston = Louisa Smith Bowen
22. Sen. John Warfield Johnston = Nicketti Buchanan Floyd
23. Louisa Bowen Johnston = Hon. Daniel Trigg (2nd great grandfather, son of 24 in first line above)
Angela Trigg
Descendant of gateway immigrants Col. Walter Aston, Mrs. Sarah Ludlow Carter, Katherine Deighton (via Gov. Thomas Dudley), John Harleston, John Henry, Warham Horsmanden, Henry Isham, and William Randolph
1. Llywelyn ap Iorwerth = Joan of England
2. Elen ferch Llywelyn = Robert de Quincy, Lord of Ware
3. Hawise or Margaret de Quincy = Baldwin Wake, Lord of Bourne
4. John Wake, 1st Baron Wake = Joan de Fiennes
5. Margaret Wake, Baroness Wake = Edmund of Woodstock, Earl of Kent
6. Joan, Countess of Kent = Thomas de Holand, 1st Earl of Kent
7. Thomas de Holand, 2nd Earl of Kent = Alice Fitzalan
8. Margaret de Holand = John Beaufort, Marquis of Dorset and Somerset
10. Margaret Beaufort = Humphrey Stafford
11. Henry Stafford, 2nd Duke of Buckingham = Katherine Woodville
12. Edward Stafford, 3rd Duke of Buckingham = Eleanor Percy
13. Mary Stafford = George Neville, 5th and de jure 3rd Lord of Abergavenny
14. Ursula Neville = Warham St. Leger
15. Anthony St. Leger = Mary Scott
16. Warham St. Leger = Mary Hayward
17. Ursula St. Leger = Rev. Daniel Horsmanden
18. Warham St. Leger Horsmanden (immigrant) = Susanna Beeching
19. Mary Horsmanden = Col. William Evelyn Byrd
20. Col. William Byrd = Marion Tylor
21. Col. William Byrd = Elizabeth Hill Carter
22. Francis Otway Byrd = Anne Ursula Munford
23. Elizabeth Byrd = Dr. Alexander Tompkins
24. Anne Munford Tompkins = Dr. Daniel Trigg (my 3rd great grandfather)
If the link to Gov. Thomas Dudley with the Sutton Dudleys is proven well enough, I'm related that way too.
I'm also still unsure about the Jean Robertson connection to the Robertsons of Struan (it seems to be linked via secondary sources, as far as I can tell?), but if that's true, then:
1. Llywelyn ap Iorwerth = Joan of England
2. Elen ferch Llywelyn = Robert de Quincy, Lord of Ware
3. Hawise or Margaret de Quincy = Baldwin Wake, Lord of Bourne
4. John Wake, 1st Baron Wake = Joan de Fiennes
5. Margaret Wake, Baroness Wake = Edmund of Woodstock, Earl of Kent
6. Joan, Countess of Kent = Thomas de Holand, 1st Earl of Kent
7. Thomas de Holand, 2nd Earl of Kent = Alice Fitzalan
8. Margaret de Holand = John Beaufort, Marquis of Dorset and Somerset
9. Joan Beaufort = (2) Sir James Stewart "the Black Knight of Lorn"
10. Sir John Stewart, Earl of Atholl = (2) Eleanor Sinclair of Orkney
11. Elizabeth Stewart (2) = Alexander Robertson, Baron of Struan
13. Gilbert Robertson of Muirton = Janet Reid
14. David Robertson of Muirton = ___ Innes
15. William Robertson of Muirton = Isabel Petrie
16. William Robertson of Gladney = Margaret Mitchell
17. Jean (Jane) Robertson = Alexander Patrick Henry
18. Col. John Henry (immigrant) = Sarah Winston
19. Lucy Henry (Patrick Henry's sister) = Valentine Wood
20. Mary Wood = Judge Peter Johnston
21. John Warfield Johnston = Louisa Smith Bowen
22. Sen. John Warfield Johnston = Nicketti Buchanan Floyd
23. Louisa Bowen Johnston = Hon. Daniel Trigg (2nd great grandfather, son of 24 in first line above)
Angela Trigg
Descendant of gateway immigrants Col. Walter Aston, Mrs. Sarah Ludlow Carter, Katherine Deighton (via Gov. Thomas Dudley), John Harleston, John Henry, Warham Horsmanden, Henry Isham, and William Randolph
americ...@gmail.com
Mar 3, 2017, 7:59:52 PM3/3/17
to
Hello Douglas (and thank you for all your incredible work!):
I have 8 lines of descent from Llywelyn ap Iorweth documented for me via Gateway Immigrant to Virginia Daniel Dobyns as well as another 5 for my wife vi Gateway Immigrant to Rhode Island John Rathbun (Rathbone).
My 8 lines via Gateway Immigrant to Virginia Daniel Dobyns:
Dobyns Line 1
1. Llywelyn ap Iorweth = Lady Joan of Wales
2. Marared ferch Llywelyn = John de Braose
3. Baron William de Braose = Ailine de Multon
4. Baron William de Braose = Agnes ____
5. Joan de Braose = James Bohun
6. Baron John Bohun = Cecily Filliol
7. Sir John Bohun = Alice ____
8. Beatrice Bohun = Sir Stephen Popham
9. Margery Popham = Thomas Hampden
10. Sir Edmund Hampden = Elizabeth Beselles
11. William Hampden = Audrey Hampden
12. John Hampden = Elizabeth Ferrers
13. Griffith Hampden = Anne Cave
14. Anne Hampden = Robert Waller
15. Ursula Waller = Daniel Dobyns
16. Edmund Dobyns = _____
17. Daniel Dobyns (Gateway Immigrant to Virginia) = Elizabeth Godson
18. Katherine Dobyns = John Hammond
19. Elizabeth Hammond = John Hill
20. Charles Hill Sr. = Elizabeth Dale
21. Charles Hill Jr. = Charity Vaughn
22. Joseph Hill = Sarah Anderson
23. Martin Snyder Hill = Mary Ellen Casey
24. Sarah Delilah Hill = Henry Leander Simmons
25. Milo George Simmons = Irene Matilda Wicken
26. Elmer Stanton Simmons = Elin Helen Söderberg
27. Christopher Andrew Simmons (me)
Dobyns Line 2
1. Llywelyn ap Iorweth = Lady Joan of Wales
2. Marared ferch Llywelyn = John de Braose
3. Baron William de Braose = Ailine de Multon
4. Baron William de Braose = Agnes ???
5. Aline de Braose = Baron John de Mowbray
6. Baron John de Mowbray = Joan of Lancaster
7. Baron John de Mowbray = Elizabeth de Segrave
8. Duke Thomas de Mowbray = Elizabeth fitz Alan
9. Isabel de Mowbray = Baron James de Berkeley
10. Elizabeth de Berkeley = Thomas Burdett
11. Margaret Burdett = Peter Cave
12. Thomas Cave = Tomassine Passamer
13. Richard Cave Esq. = Margaret Saxby
14. Anthony Cave = Elizabeth Lovett
15. Anne Cave = Griffith Hampden
16. Anne Hampden = Robert Waller
17. Ursula Waller = Daniel Dobyns
18. Edmund Dobyns = ____
19. Daniel Dobyns (Gateway Immigrant to Virginia) = Elizabeth Godson
Dobyns Line 3
1. Llywelyn ap Iorweth = Lady Joan of Wales
2. Marared ferch Llywelyn = Baron Walter de Clifford
3. Maud de Clifford = Baron John Giffard
4. Eleanor Giffard = Baron Fulk le Strange
5. Baron John le Strange = Ankaret le Boteller
6. Eleanor le Strange = Baron Reginald de Grey
7. Baroness Ida de Grey = Baron John Cokayne
8. Elizabeth Cokayne = Sir Philip le Boteler
9. Philip le Boteler = Isabel Willoughby
10. John Boteler = Constance Vere
11. Elizabeth Boteler = Thomas Lovett
12. Thomas Lovett = Ann Danvers
13. Elizabeth Lovett = Anthony Cave
14. Anne Cave = Griffith Hampden
15. Anne Hampden = Robert Waller
16. Ursula Waller = Daniel Dobyns
17. Edmund Dobyns = ____
18. Daniel Dobyns (Gateway Immigrant to Virginia) = Elizabeth Godson
Dobyns Line 4
1. Llywelyn ap Iorweth = Lady Joan of Wales
2. Marared ferch Llywelyn = Baron Walter de Clifford
3. Maud de Clifford = Baron John Giffard
4. Katherine Giffard = Sir Nicholas de Audley
5. Baron Nicholas de Audley = Joan fitz Martin
6. Alice de Audley = Sir High de Meynell
7. Isabel de Meynell = Sir Thomas Shirley
8. Sir Hugh Shirley = Beatrice de Braose
9. Sir Ralph Shirley = Joan Basset
10. Beatrice Shirley = John Brome
11. Nicholas Brome = Elizabeth Arundell
12. Constance Brome = Sir Edward Ferrers
13. Elizabeth Ferrers = John Hampden
14. Griffith Hampden = Anne Cave
15. Anne Hampden = Robert Waller
16. Ursula Waller = Daniel Dobyns
17. Edmund Dobyns = ____
18. Daniel Dobyns (Gateway Immigrant to Virginia) = Elizabeth Godson
Dobyns Line 5
1. Llywelyn ap Iorweth = Lady Joan of Wales
2. Gwyladys Ddu = Ralph de Mortimer
3. Baron Roger de Mortimer = Maud de Braose
4. Isabella Mortimer = Earl John fitz Alan
5. Earl Richard fitz Alan = Alice di Saluzzo
6. Earl Edmund fitz Alan = Alice de Warenne
7. Earl Richard fitz Alan = Eleanor of Lancaster
8. Earl Richard fitz Alan = Elizabeth de Bohun
9. Elizabeth fitz Alan = Duke Thomas de Mowbray
10. Isabel de Mowbray = Baron James de Berkeley
11. Elizabeth de Berkeley = Thomas Burdett
12. Margaret Burdett = Peter Cave
13. Thomas Cave = Tomassine Passamer
14. Richard Cave Esq. = Margaret Saxby
15. Anthony Cave = Elizabeth Lovett
16. Anne Cave = Griffith Hampden
17. Anne Hampden = Robert Waller
18. Ursula Waller = Daniel Dobyns
19. Edmund Dobyns = ____
20. Daniel Dobyns (Gateway Immigrant to Virginia) = Elizabeth Godson
Dobyns Line 6
1. Llywelyn ap Iorweth = Lady Joan of Wales
2. Gwyladys Ddu = Ralph de Mortimer
3. Baron Roger de Mortimer = Maud de Braose
4. Baron Edmund Mortimer = Margaret de Fiennes
5. Earl Roger Mortimer = Baroness Joan de Geneville
6. Katherine Mortimer = Earl Thomas de Beauchamp
7. Maud de Beauchamp = Baron Roger de Clifford
8. Phillip Clifford = Baron William Ferrers
9. Sir Thomas Ferrers = Elizabeth de Freville
10. Sir Henry Ferrers = Margaret Hexstall
11. Sir Edward Ferrers = Constance Brome
12. Elizabeth Ferrers = John Hampden
13. Griffith Hampden = Anne Cave
14. Anne Hampden = Robert Waller
15. Ursula Waller = Daniel Dobyns
16. Edmund Dobyns = ____
17. Daniel Dobyns (Gateway Immigrant to Virginia) = Elizabeth Godson
Dobyns Line 7
1. Llywelyn ap Iorweth = Lady Joan of Wales
2. Gwyladys Ddu = Ralph de Mortimer
3. Baron Roger de Mortimer = Maud de Braose
4. Baron Edmund Mortimer = Margaret de Fiennes
5. Earl Roger Mortimer = Baroness Joan de Geneville
6. Margaret Mortimer = Baron Thomas de Berkeley
7. Baron Maurice de Berkeley = Elizabeth le Despencer
8. Sir James de Berkeley = Elizabeth Bluet
9. Baron James de Berkeley = Isabel de Mowbray
10. Elizabeth de Berkeley = Thomas Burdett
11. Margaret Burdett = Peter Cave
12. Thomas Cave = Tomassine Passamer
13. Richard Cave Esq. = Margaret Saxby
14. Anthony Cave = Elizabeth Lovett
15. Anne Cave = Griffith Hampden
16. Anne Hampden = Robert Waller
17. Ursula Waller = Daniel Dobyns
18. Edmund Dobyns = ____
19. Daniel Dobyns (Gateway Immigrant to Virginia) = Elizabeth Godson
Dobyns Line 8
1. Llywelyn ap Iorweth = Lady Joan of Wales
2. Ellen ferch Llywelyn = Sir Robert de Quincy
3. Hawise de Quincy = Baldwin Wake
4. Hugh Wake = Joan de Bolany
5. Mirabel Wake = Baron Hugh de St. John
6. Baroness Ida St. John = Baron Luke de Poynings
7. Joane Poynings = Baron Henry de Ferrers
8. Baron William de Ferrers = Phillipa Clifford
9. Sir Thomas Ferrers = Elizabeth de Freville
10. Sir Henry Ferrers = Margaret Hexstall
11. Sir Edward Ferrers = Constance Brome
12. Elizabeth Ferrers = John Hampden
13. Griffith Hampden = Anne Cave
14. Anne Hampden = Robert Waller
15. Ursula Waller = Daniel Dobyns
16. Edmund Dobyns = ____
17. Daniel Dobyns (Gateway Immigrant to Virginia) = Elizabeth Godson
Five more lines to my wife via Gateway Immigrant to Rhode Island John Rathbun (Rathbone):
Rathbun Line 1
1. Llywelyn ap Iorweth = Lady Joan of Wales
2. Marared ferch Llywelyn = Baron Walter de Clifford
3. Maud de Clifford = Baron John Giffard
4. Eleanor Giffard = Baron Fulk le Strange
5. Baron John le Strange = Ankaret le Boteller
6. Eleanor le Strange = Baron Reginald de Grey
7. Maud de Grey = Baron John Tuchet
8. Baron John Tuchet = Elizabeth Stafford
9. Baron James Tuchet = Margaret Ros
10. Anne Tuchet = Sir Thomas Dutton
11. Anne Dutton = Sir Thomas Molyneux
12. Sir William Molyneux = Jane Rugge
13. Anne Molyneux = Alexander Standish
14. Jane Standish = Roger Bradshaigh
15. Ellen Bradshaigh = Ralph Houghton
16. George Edward Houghton = Elizabeth Litherland
17. Ralph Houghton = Alice Rose Houghton
18. Margaret Houghton = Thomas Acres
19. Margaret Acres = John Rathbun (Gateway Immigrant to Rhode Island)
20. Captain Thomas Rathbun = Mary Dickens
21. Marcy Rathbun = Jonathan Burtch
22. David Burtch = Elizabeth Slough
23. Zacharias Burtch (Immigrant to Canada) = Jane Babbit
24. Mary Burch = Abraham Canfield
25. Earl M. Canfield = Charlotte Dorman
26. Valentine Canfield = Abigail Scofield
27. Albertine May Canfield = Pemburton Devila Ede
28. Cyril Preston Ede = Pansy Pearl Brandow
29. Phyllis Siple Ede = James Coleville Mulligan (adopted by James Alexander Dewar)
30. Sharon Patricia Dewar = Orval Charles Baskerville
31. Debra Ellen Baskerville (my wife)
Rathbun Line 2
1. Llywelyn ap Iorweth = Lady Joan of Wales
2. Marared ferch Llywelyn = Baron Walter de Clifford
3. Maud de Clifford = Baron John Giffard
4. Katherine Giffard = Sir Nicholas de Audley
5. Baron Nicholas de Audley = Joan fitz Martin
6. Baron James de Audley = Joan Mortimer
7. Joan Audley = Sir John Tuchet
8. Baron John Tuchet = Maud de Grey
9. Baron John Tuchet = Elizabeth Stafford
10. Baron James Tuchet = Margaret Ros
11. Anne Tuchet = Sir Thomas Dutton
12. Anne Dutton = Sir Thomas Molyneux
13. Sir William Molyneux = Jane Rugge
14. Anne Molyneux = Alexander Standish
15. Jane Standish = Roger Bradshaigh
16. Ellen Bradshaigh = Ralph Houghton
17. George Edward Houghton = Elizabeth Litherland
18. Ralph Houghton = Alice Rose Houghton
19. Margaret Houghton = Thomas Acres
20. Margaret Acres = John Rathbun (Gateway Immigrant to Rhode Island)
21. Captain Thomas Rathbun = Mary Dickens
22. Marcy Rathbun = Jonathan Burtch
23. David Burtch = Elizabeth Slough
24. Zacharias Burtch (Immigrant to Canada) = Jane Babbit
Rathbun Line 3
1. Llywelyn ap Iorweth = Lady Joan of Wales
2. Gwyladys Ddu = Ralph de Mortimer
3. Baron Roger de Mortimer = Maud de Braose
4. Isabella Mortimer = Earl John fitz Alan
5. Earl Richard fitz Alan = Alice di Saluzzo
6. Earl Edmund fitz Alan = Alice de Warenne
7. Earl Richard fitz Alan = Eleanor of Lancaster
8. Earl Richard fitz Alan = Elizabeth de Bohun
9. Elizabeth fitz Alan = Robert Goushill
10. Joan Goushill = Baron Thomas Stanley
11. Elizabeth Stanley = Sir Richard Molyneux
12. Sir Thomas Molyneux = Anne Dutton
13. Sir William Molyneux = Jane Rugge
14. Anne Molyneux = Alexander Standish
15. Jane Standish = Roger Bradshaigh
16. Ellen Bradshaigh = Ralph Houghton
17. George Edward Houghton = Elizabeth Litherland
18. Ralph Houghton = Alice Rose Houghton
19. Margaret Houghton = Thomas Acres
20. Margaret Acres = John Rathbun (Gateway Immigrant to Rhode Island)
21. Captain Thomas Rathbun = Mary Dickens
22. Marcy Rathbun = Jonathan Burtch
23. David Burtch = Elizabeth Slough
24. Zacharias Burtch (Immigrant to Canada) = Jane Babbit
Rathbun Line 4
1. Llywelyn ap Iorweth = Lady Joan of Wales
2. Gwyladys Ddu = Ralph de Mortimer
3. Baron Roger de Mortimer = Maud de Braose
4. Isabella Mortimer = Earl John fitz Alan
5. Earl Richard fitz Alan = Alice di Saluzzo
6. Earl Edmund fitz Alan = Alice de Warenne
7. Earl Richard fitz Alan = Eleanor of Lancaster
8. Baron John fitz Alan = Baroness Eleanor Maltravers
9. Margaret fitz Alan = Baron William Ros
10. Margaret Ros = Baron James Tuchet
11. Anne Tuchet = Sir Thomas Dutton
12. Anne Dutton = Sir Thomas Molyneux
13. Sir William Molyneux = Jane Rugge
14. Anne Molyneux = Alexander Standish
15. Jane Standish = Roger Bradshaigh
16. Ellen Bradshaigh = Ralph Houghton
17. George Edward Houghton = Elizabeth Litherland
18. Ralph Houghton = Alice Rose Houghton
19. Margaret Houghton = Thomas Acres
20. Margaret Acres = John Rathbun (Gateway Immigrant to Rhode Island)
21. Captain Thomas Rathbun = Mary Dickens
22. Marcy Rathbun = Jonathan Burtch
23. David Burtch = Elizabeth Slough
24. Zacharias Burtch (Immigrant to Canada) = Jane Babbit
Rathbun Line 5
1. Llywelyn ap Iorweth = Lady Joan of Wales
2. Gwyladys Ddu = Ralph de Mortimer
3. Baron Roger de Mortimer = Maud de Braose
4. Baron Edmund Mortimer = Margaret de Fiennes
5. Earl Roger Mortimer = Baroness Joan de Geneville
6. Joan Mortimer = Baron James Audley
7. Joan Audley = Sir John Tuchet
8. Baron John Tuchet = Maud de Grey
9. Baron John Tuchet = Elizabeth Stafford
10. Baron James Tuchet = Margaret Ros
11. Anne Tuchet = Sir Thomas Dutton
12. Anne Dutton = Sir Thomas Molyneux
13. Sir William Molyneux = Jane Rugge
14. Anne Molyneux = Alexander Standish
15. Jane Standish = Roger Bradshaigh
16. Ellen Bradshaigh = Ralph Houghton
17. George Edward Houghton = Elizabeth Litherland
18. Ralph Houghton = Alice Rose Houghton
19. Margaret Houghton = Thomas Acres
20. Margaret Acres = John Rathbun (Gateway Immigrant to Rhode Island)
21. Captain Thomas Rathbun = Mary Dickens
22. Marcy Rathbun = Jonathan Burtch
23. David Burtch = Elizabeth Slough
24. Zacharias Burtch (Immigrant to Canada) = Jane Babbit
Thanks I hope that is useful!
Christopher Simmons
I have 8 lines of descent from Llywelyn ap Iorweth documented for me via Gateway Immigrant to Virginia Daniel Dobyns as well as another 5 for my wife vi Gateway Immigrant to Rhode Island John Rathbun (Rathbone).
My 8 lines via Gateway Immigrant to Virginia Daniel Dobyns:
Dobyns Line 1
1. Llywelyn ap Iorweth = Lady Joan of Wales
2. Marared ferch Llywelyn = John de Braose
3. Baron William de Braose = Ailine de Multon
4. Baron William de Braose = Agnes ____
5. Joan de Braose = James Bohun
6. Baron John Bohun = Cecily Filliol
7. Sir John Bohun = Alice ____
8. Beatrice Bohun = Sir Stephen Popham
9. Margery Popham = Thomas Hampden
10. Sir Edmund Hampden = Elizabeth Beselles
11. William Hampden = Audrey Hampden
12. John Hampden = Elizabeth Ferrers
13. Griffith Hampden = Anne Cave
14. Anne Hampden = Robert Waller
15. Ursula Waller = Daniel Dobyns
16. Edmund Dobyns = _____
17. Daniel Dobyns (Gateway Immigrant to Virginia) = Elizabeth Godson
18. Katherine Dobyns = John Hammond
19. Elizabeth Hammond = John Hill
20. Charles Hill Sr. = Elizabeth Dale
21. Charles Hill Jr. = Charity Vaughn
22. Joseph Hill = Sarah Anderson
23. Martin Snyder Hill = Mary Ellen Casey
24. Sarah Delilah Hill = Henry Leander Simmons
25. Milo George Simmons = Irene Matilda Wicken
26. Elmer Stanton Simmons = Elin Helen Söderberg
27. Christopher Andrew Simmons (me)
Dobyns Line 2
1. Llywelyn ap Iorweth = Lady Joan of Wales
2. Marared ferch Llywelyn = John de Braose
3. Baron William de Braose = Ailine de Multon
4. Baron William de Braose = Agnes ???
5. Aline de Braose = Baron John de Mowbray
6. Baron John de Mowbray = Joan of Lancaster
7. Baron John de Mowbray = Elizabeth de Segrave
8. Duke Thomas de Mowbray = Elizabeth fitz Alan
9. Isabel de Mowbray = Baron James de Berkeley
10. Elizabeth de Berkeley = Thomas Burdett
11. Margaret Burdett = Peter Cave
12. Thomas Cave = Tomassine Passamer
13. Richard Cave Esq. = Margaret Saxby
14. Anthony Cave = Elizabeth Lovett
15. Anne Cave = Griffith Hampden
16. Anne Hampden = Robert Waller
17. Ursula Waller = Daniel Dobyns
18. Edmund Dobyns = ____
19. Daniel Dobyns (Gateway Immigrant to Virginia) = Elizabeth Godson
Dobyns Line 3
1. Llywelyn ap Iorweth = Lady Joan of Wales
2. Marared ferch Llywelyn = Baron Walter de Clifford
3. Maud de Clifford = Baron John Giffard
4. Eleanor Giffard = Baron Fulk le Strange
5. Baron John le Strange = Ankaret le Boteller
6. Eleanor le Strange = Baron Reginald de Grey
7. Baroness Ida de Grey = Baron John Cokayne
8. Elizabeth Cokayne = Sir Philip le Boteler
9. Philip le Boteler = Isabel Willoughby
10. John Boteler = Constance Vere
11. Elizabeth Boteler = Thomas Lovett
12. Thomas Lovett = Ann Danvers
13. Elizabeth Lovett = Anthony Cave
14. Anne Cave = Griffith Hampden
15. Anne Hampden = Robert Waller
16. Ursula Waller = Daniel Dobyns
17. Edmund Dobyns = ____
18. Daniel Dobyns (Gateway Immigrant to Virginia) = Elizabeth Godson
Dobyns Line 4
1. Llywelyn ap Iorweth = Lady Joan of Wales
2. Marared ferch Llywelyn = Baron Walter de Clifford
3. Maud de Clifford = Baron John Giffard
4. Katherine Giffard = Sir Nicholas de Audley
5. Baron Nicholas de Audley = Joan fitz Martin
6. Alice de Audley = Sir High de Meynell
7. Isabel de Meynell = Sir Thomas Shirley
8. Sir Hugh Shirley = Beatrice de Braose
9. Sir Ralph Shirley = Joan Basset
10. Beatrice Shirley = John Brome
11. Nicholas Brome = Elizabeth Arundell
12. Constance Brome = Sir Edward Ferrers
13. Elizabeth Ferrers = John Hampden
14. Griffith Hampden = Anne Cave
15. Anne Hampden = Robert Waller
16. Ursula Waller = Daniel Dobyns
17. Edmund Dobyns = ____
18. Daniel Dobyns (Gateway Immigrant to Virginia) = Elizabeth Godson
Dobyns Line 5
1. Llywelyn ap Iorweth = Lady Joan of Wales
2. Gwyladys Ddu = Ralph de Mortimer
3. Baron Roger de Mortimer = Maud de Braose
4. Isabella Mortimer = Earl John fitz Alan
5. Earl Richard fitz Alan = Alice di Saluzzo
6. Earl Edmund fitz Alan = Alice de Warenne
7. Earl Richard fitz Alan = Eleanor of Lancaster
8. Earl Richard fitz Alan = Elizabeth de Bohun
9. Elizabeth fitz Alan = Duke Thomas de Mowbray
10. Isabel de Mowbray = Baron James de Berkeley
11. Elizabeth de Berkeley = Thomas Burdett
12. Margaret Burdett = Peter Cave
13. Thomas Cave = Tomassine Passamer
14. Richard Cave Esq. = Margaret Saxby
15. Anthony Cave = Elizabeth Lovett
16. Anne Cave = Griffith Hampden
17. Anne Hampden = Robert Waller
18. Ursula Waller = Daniel Dobyns
19. Edmund Dobyns = ____
20. Daniel Dobyns (Gateway Immigrant to Virginia) = Elizabeth Godson
Dobyns Line 6
1. Llywelyn ap Iorweth = Lady Joan of Wales
2. Gwyladys Ddu = Ralph de Mortimer
3. Baron Roger de Mortimer = Maud de Braose
4. Baron Edmund Mortimer = Margaret de Fiennes
5. Earl Roger Mortimer = Baroness Joan de Geneville
6. Katherine Mortimer = Earl Thomas de Beauchamp
7. Maud de Beauchamp = Baron Roger de Clifford
8. Phillip Clifford = Baron William Ferrers
9. Sir Thomas Ferrers = Elizabeth de Freville
10. Sir Henry Ferrers = Margaret Hexstall
11. Sir Edward Ferrers = Constance Brome
12. Elizabeth Ferrers = John Hampden
13. Griffith Hampden = Anne Cave
14. Anne Hampden = Robert Waller
15. Ursula Waller = Daniel Dobyns
16. Edmund Dobyns = ____
17. Daniel Dobyns (Gateway Immigrant to Virginia) = Elizabeth Godson
Dobyns Line 7
1. Llywelyn ap Iorweth = Lady Joan of Wales
2. Gwyladys Ddu = Ralph de Mortimer
3. Baron Roger de Mortimer = Maud de Braose
4. Baron Edmund Mortimer = Margaret de Fiennes
5. Earl Roger Mortimer = Baroness Joan de Geneville
6. Margaret Mortimer = Baron Thomas de Berkeley
7. Baron Maurice de Berkeley = Elizabeth le Despencer
8. Sir James de Berkeley = Elizabeth Bluet
9. Baron James de Berkeley = Isabel de Mowbray
10. Elizabeth de Berkeley = Thomas Burdett
11. Margaret Burdett = Peter Cave
12. Thomas Cave = Tomassine Passamer
13. Richard Cave Esq. = Margaret Saxby
14. Anthony Cave = Elizabeth Lovett
15. Anne Cave = Griffith Hampden
16. Anne Hampden = Robert Waller
17. Ursula Waller = Daniel Dobyns
18. Edmund Dobyns = ____
19. Daniel Dobyns (Gateway Immigrant to Virginia) = Elizabeth Godson
Dobyns Line 8
1. Llywelyn ap Iorweth = Lady Joan of Wales
2. Ellen ferch Llywelyn = Sir Robert de Quincy
3. Hawise de Quincy = Baldwin Wake
4. Hugh Wake = Joan de Bolany
5. Mirabel Wake = Baron Hugh de St. John
6. Baroness Ida St. John = Baron Luke de Poynings
7. Joane Poynings = Baron Henry de Ferrers
8. Baron William de Ferrers = Phillipa Clifford
9. Sir Thomas Ferrers = Elizabeth de Freville
10. Sir Henry Ferrers = Margaret Hexstall
11. Sir Edward Ferrers = Constance Brome
12. Elizabeth Ferrers = John Hampden
13. Griffith Hampden = Anne Cave
14. Anne Hampden = Robert Waller
15. Ursula Waller = Daniel Dobyns
16. Edmund Dobyns = ____
17. Daniel Dobyns (Gateway Immigrant to Virginia) = Elizabeth Godson
Five more lines to my wife via Gateway Immigrant to Rhode Island John Rathbun (Rathbone):
Rathbun Line 1
1. Llywelyn ap Iorweth = Lady Joan of Wales
2. Marared ferch Llywelyn = Baron Walter de Clifford
3. Maud de Clifford = Baron John Giffard
4. Eleanor Giffard = Baron Fulk le Strange
5. Baron John le Strange = Ankaret le Boteller
6. Eleanor le Strange = Baron Reginald de Grey
7. Maud de Grey = Baron John Tuchet
8. Baron John Tuchet = Elizabeth Stafford
9. Baron James Tuchet = Margaret Ros
10. Anne Tuchet = Sir Thomas Dutton
11. Anne Dutton = Sir Thomas Molyneux
12. Sir William Molyneux = Jane Rugge
13. Anne Molyneux = Alexander Standish
14. Jane Standish = Roger Bradshaigh
15. Ellen Bradshaigh = Ralph Houghton
16. George Edward Houghton = Elizabeth Litherland
17. Ralph Houghton = Alice Rose Houghton
18. Margaret Houghton = Thomas Acres
19. Margaret Acres = John Rathbun (Gateway Immigrant to Rhode Island)
20. Captain Thomas Rathbun = Mary Dickens
21. Marcy Rathbun = Jonathan Burtch
22. David Burtch = Elizabeth Slough
23. Zacharias Burtch (Immigrant to Canada) = Jane Babbit
24. Mary Burch = Abraham Canfield
25. Earl M. Canfield = Charlotte Dorman
26. Valentine Canfield = Abigail Scofield
27. Albertine May Canfield = Pemburton Devila Ede
28. Cyril Preston Ede = Pansy Pearl Brandow
29. Phyllis Siple Ede = James Coleville Mulligan (adopted by James Alexander Dewar)
30. Sharon Patricia Dewar = Orval Charles Baskerville
31. Debra Ellen Baskerville (my wife)
Rathbun Line 2
1. Llywelyn ap Iorweth = Lady Joan of Wales
2. Marared ferch Llywelyn = Baron Walter de Clifford
3. Maud de Clifford = Baron John Giffard
4. Katherine Giffard = Sir Nicholas de Audley
5. Baron Nicholas de Audley = Joan fitz Martin
6. Baron James de Audley = Joan Mortimer
7. Joan Audley = Sir John Tuchet
8. Baron John Tuchet = Maud de Grey
9. Baron John Tuchet = Elizabeth Stafford
10. Baron James Tuchet = Margaret Ros
11. Anne Tuchet = Sir Thomas Dutton
12. Anne Dutton = Sir Thomas Molyneux
13. Sir William Molyneux = Jane Rugge
14. Anne Molyneux = Alexander Standish
15. Jane Standish = Roger Bradshaigh
16. Ellen Bradshaigh = Ralph Houghton
17. George Edward Houghton = Elizabeth Litherland
18. Ralph Houghton = Alice Rose Houghton
19. Margaret Houghton = Thomas Acres
20. Margaret Acres = John Rathbun (Gateway Immigrant to Rhode Island)
21. Captain Thomas Rathbun = Mary Dickens
22. Marcy Rathbun = Jonathan Burtch
23. David Burtch = Elizabeth Slough
24. Zacharias Burtch (Immigrant to Canada) = Jane Babbit
Rathbun Line 3
1. Llywelyn ap Iorweth = Lady Joan of Wales
2. Gwyladys Ddu = Ralph de Mortimer
3. Baron Roger de Mortimer = Maud de Braose
4. Isabella Mortimer = Earl John fitz Alan
5. Earl Richard fitz Alan = Alice di Saluzzo
6. Earl Edmund fitz Alan = Alice de Warenne
7. Earl Richard fitz Alan = Eleanor of Lancaster
8. Earl Richard fitz Alan = Elizabeth de Bohun
9. Elizabeth fitz Alan = Robert Goushill
10. Joan Goushill = Baron Thomas Stanley
11. Elizabeth Stanley = Sir Richard Molyneux
12. Sir Thomas Molyneux = Anne Dutton
13. Sir William Molyneux = Jane Rugge
14. Anne Molyneux = Alexander Standish
15. Jane Standish = Roger Bradshaigh
16. Ellen Bradshaigh = Ralph Houghton
17. George Edward Houghton = Elizabeth Litherland
18. Ralph Houghton = Alice Rose Houghton
19. Margaret Houghton = Thomas Acres
20. Margaret Acres = John Rathbun (Gateway Immigrant to Rhode Island)
21. Captain Thomas Rathbun = Mary Dickens
22. Marcy Rathbun = Jonathan Burtch
23. David Burtch = Elizabeth Slough
24. Zacharias Burtch (Immigrant to Canada) = Jane Babbit
Rathbun Line 4
1. Llywelyn ap Iorweth = Lady Joan of Wales
2. Gwyladys Ddu = Ralph de Mortimer
3. Baron Roger de Mortimer = Maud de Braose
4. Isabella Mortimer = Earl John fitz Alan
5. Earl Richard fitz Alan = Alice di Saluzzo
6. Earl Edmund fitz Alan = Alice de Warenne
7. Earl Richard fitz Alan = Eleanor of Lancaster
8. Baron John fitz Alan = Baroness Eleanor Maltravers
9. Margaret fitz Alan = Baron William Ros
10. Margaret Ros = Baron James Tuchet
11. Anne Tuchet = Sir Thomas Dutton
12. Anne Dutton = Sir Thomas Molyneux
13. Sir William Molyneux = Jane Rugge
14. Anne Molyneux = Alexander Standish
15. Jane Standish = Roger Bradshaigh
16. Ellen Bradshaigh = Ralph Houghton
17. George Edward Houghton = Elizabeth Litherland
18. Ralph Houghton = Alice Rose Houghton
19. Margaret Houghton = Thomas Acres
20. Margaret Acres = John Rathbun (Gateway Immigrant to Rhode Island)
21. Captain Thomas Rathbun = Mary Dickens
22. Marcy Rathbun = Jonathan Burtch
23. David Burtch = Elizabeth Slough
24. Zacharias Burtch (Immigrant to Canada) = Jane Babbit
Rathbun Line 5
1. Llywelyn ap Iorweth = Lady Joan of Wales
2. Gwyladys Ddu = Ralph de Mortimer
3. Baron Roger de Mortimer = Maud de Braose
4. Baron Edmund Mortimer = Margaret de Fiennes
5. Earl Roger Mortimer = Baroness Joan de Geneville
6. Joan Mortimer = Baron James Audley
7. Joan Audley = Sir John Tuchet
8. Baron John Tuchet = Maud de Grey
9. Baron John Tuchet = Elizabeth Stafford
10. Baron James Tuchet = Margaret Ros
11. Anne Tuchet = Sir Thomas Dutton
12. Anne Dutton = Sir Thomas Molyneux
13. Sir William Molyneux = Jane Rugge
14. Anne Molyneux = Alexander Standish
15. Jane Standish = Roger Bradshaigh
16. Ellen Bradshaigh = Ralph Houghton
17. George Edward Houghton = Elizabeth Litherland
18. Ralph Houghton = Alice Rose Houghton
19. Margaret Houghton = Thomas Acres
20. Margaret Acres = John Rathbun (Gateway Immigrant to Rhode Island)
21. Captain Thomas Rathbun = Mary Dickens
22. Marcy Rathbun = Jonathan Burtch
23. David Burtch = Elizabeth Slough
24. Zacharias Burtch (Immigrant to Canada) = Jane Babbit
Thanks I hope that is useful!
Christopher Simmons
americ...@gmail.com
Mar 9, 2017, 12:37:30 PM3/9/17
to
Hello all:
I must beg pardon. I thought I had a solid source for the John Rathbun line via his wife Margaret Acres and her mother Margery Houghton, but I realize now that was incorrect. The line remains to be proven and is uncertain.
Sorry for the confusion.
Christopher
I must beg pardon. I thought I had a solid source for the John Rathbun line via his wife Margaret Acres and her mother Margery Houghton, but I realize now that was incorrect. The line remains to be proven and is uncertain.
Sorry for the confusion.
Christopher
austinw...@gmail.com
Mar 19, 2017, 1:03:43 AM3/19/17
to
I know I’m rather late to this party, but I didn’t notice anyone else putting in a line via the Marbury sisters:
1. Llewellyn ap Iorwerth
2. Gwladus Ddu m. Ralph de Mortimer, Lord of Wigmore
3. Roger de Mortimer m. Maud de Braose
4. Isabel de Mortimer m. John Fitz Alan
5. Richard Fitz Alan, Earl of Arundel, m. Alice of Saluzzo
6. Edmund Fitz Alan, Earl of Arundel, m. Alice de Warenne
7. Mary Fitz Alan m. John le Strange, 4th Baron
8. Ankaret le Strange m. Richard Talbot, 4th Baron
9. Mary Talbot m. Sir Thomas Grene
10. Sir Thomas Grene m. Philippa Ferrers
11. Elizabeth Grene m. William Raleigh
12. Sir Edward Raleigh m. Margaret Verney
13. Edward Raleigh m. Anne Chamberlain
14. Bridget Raleigh m. Sir John Cope
15. Elizabeth Cope m. John Dryden
16. Bridget Dryden m. Rev. Francis Marbury
17. Katherine Marbury m. Richard Scott
And, in 11 more generations...
Austin W. Spencer
1. Llewellyn ap Iorwerth
2. Gwladus Ddu m. Ralph de Mortimer, Lord of Wigmore
3. Roger de Mortimer m. Maud de Braose
4. Isabel de Mortimer m. John Fitz Alan
5. Richard Fitz Alan, Earl of Arundel, m. Alice of Saluzzo
6. Edmund Fitz Alan, Earl of Arundel, m. Alice de Warenne
7. Mary Fitz Alan m. John le Strange, 4th Baron
8. Ankaret le Strange m. Richard Talbot, 4th Baron
9. Mary Talbot m. Sir Thomas Grene
10. Sir Thomas Grene m. Philippa Ferrers
11. Elizabeth Grene m. William Raleigh
12. Sir Edward Raleigh m. Margaret Verney
13. Edward Raleigh m. Anne Chamberlain
14. Bridget Raleigh m. Sir John Cope
15. Elizabeth Cope m. John Dryden
16. Bridget Dryden m. Rev. Francis Marbury
17. Katherine Marbury m. Richard Scott
And, in 11 more generations...
Austin W. Spencer
h2buc...@gmail.com
Mar 26, 2017, 1:36:19 PM3/26/17
to
On Thursday, February 16, 2017 at 6:41:23 PM UTC-5, joe...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, February 16, 2017 at 1:12:56 PM UTC-5, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> > Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> > Do you descend from Llywelyn ap Iorwerth, Prince of North Wales? If so, perhaps you would be kind enough to post your line of descent from this great man on the newsgroup down to your New World immigrant.
> >
>
> Looks like I have about 12 possible traced:
>
> 1. Llywellen ap Iowerth
> 2a. Margred verch Llywellen m. Walter de Clifford
> 3a. Maud de Clifford m. John Giffard
> 4a. Katherine Giffard m. Nicholas de Audley
> 5a. Nicholas de Audley m. Joan Martin
> 6a. Alice de Audley m. Hugh de Meynell
> 7a. Isabel de Meynell m. Thomas de Shirley
> 8a. Hugh Shirley m. Beatrice Brewes
> 9a. Ralph Shirley m. Joan Basset
> 10a. Beatrice Shirley m. John Brome
> 11a. Isabel Brome m. John Denton
> 12a. Alice Denton m. Nicholas Purefoy
> 13a. Edward Purefoy m. Anne Fettiplace
> 14a. Mary Purefoy m. Thomas Thorne
> 15a. Susanna Thorne m. Roger Dudley
> 16a. Thomas Dudley b.1576 immigrant
>
>
> 12b. Thomas Denton [son of 11a above] m. Jane Webb
> 13b. Isabel Denton m. William ap Walter
> 14b. Thomasine Walter m. William Luckyn
> 15b. Judith Luckyn m. Edward Warde
> 16b. (probably) Mary Ward, immigrant
>
> 16c. (probably) Rebecca Ward [daughter of 15b above], immigrant
>
> 6d. James de Audley [son of 5a above] m. Joan de Mortimer
> 7d. Joan de Audley m. John Tuchet
> 8d. John Tuchet m. Maud
> 9d. John Tuchet m. Elizbeth Stafford
> 10d. Margaret Tuchet m. John Luttrell
> 11d. James Luttrell m. Elizabeth Courtenay
> 12d. Hugh Luttrell m. Margaret Hill
> 13d. Eleanor Luttrell m. Roger Yorke
> 14d. Elizabeth Yorke m. Edmund Percival
> 15d. Christian Percival m. Richard Lowle
> 16d. Percival Lowle b.1571, immigrant
>
> 2e. Margred verch Llywellen (same as 2a above) m. John de Braose
> 3e. William de Braose m. Alice de Multon
> 4e. William de Brewes m. Agnes
> 5e. Aline de Brewes m. John de Mowbray
> 6e. John de Mowbray m. Joan of Lancaster
> 7e. John de Mowbray m. Elizabeth de Segrave
> 8e. Eleanor de Mowbray m. John de Welles
> 9e. Eudes Welles m. Maud de Greystoke
> 10e. Lionel de Welles m. Joan Waterton
> 11e. Margaret Welles m. Thomas Dymoke
> 12e. Lionel Dymoke m. Joan Griffith
> 13e. Anne Dymoke m. John Goodricke
> 14e. Lionel Goodrick m. Winifred Sapcote
> 15e. Anne Goodrick m. Benjamin Bolles
> 16e. Thomas Bolles m. Elizabeth Perkins
> 17e. Joseph Bolles b.1608/9 immigrant.
>
> 12f. Jane Dymoke [daughter of 11e above] m. John Fulnetby
> 13f. [possibly] Katherine Fulnetby m. William Dynewell
> 14f. Anne Dynewell m. Henry Whitgift
> 15f. William Whitgift
> 16f. Elizabeth Whitgift m. Wymond Bradbury
> 17f. Thomas Bradbury, b. 1610/11 immigrant
>
> 5g. Joan de Brewes [daugther of 4e above] m. Richard Foliot
> 6g. Margery Foliot m. Hugh de Hastings
> 7g. Maud de Hastings m. Robert de la Mare
> 8g. Willema de la Mare m. John Roches
> 9g. Joan Roches m. Nicholas Baynton
> 10g. John Baynton m. Joan
> 11g. Henry Baynton
> 12g. Jane Baynton m. Thomas Prowse
> 13g. Mary Prowse m. John Gye
> 14g. Robert Gye m. Grace Dowrish
> 15g. Mary Gye b.c.1580, immigrant
>
> 3h. William de Braose [same as 3e above] m. Mary de Roos
> 4h. Peter de Brewes m. Agnes de Clifford
> 5h. Peter Brewes m. Joan
> 6h. Beatrice Brewes m. Hugh Shirley (same as 8a above)
>
> 1i. Llewellyn ap Iowerth (same as 1a above) m. Joan of England
> 2i. Gwladys Dhu m. Ralph de Mortimer
> 3i. Roger de Mortimer m. Maud de Braose
> 4i. Isabella de Mortimer m. John Fitz Alan
> 5i. Richard Fitz Alan m. Alice di Saluzzo
> 6i. Alice de Arundel m. Stephen de Segrave
> 7i. John de Segrave m. Margaret Marshal
> 8i. Elizabeth de Segrave m. John de Mowbray [same as 7e above]
>
> 6j. Eleanor de Arundel [daughter of 5i above] m. Henry de Percy
> 7j. Henry de Percy m. Idoine de Clifford
> 8j. Isabel de Percy m. William de Aton
> 9j. Elizabeth de Aton m. John de Conyers
> 10j. Robert Conyers m. Isabel Pert
> 11j. Joan Conyers m. Philip Dymoke
> 12j. Thomas Dymoke m. Margaret Welles [same as 11e above]
>
> 4k. Edmund de Mortimer [son of 3i above] m. Margaret de Fiennes
> 5k. Roger de Mortimer m. Joan de Geneville
> 6k. Katherine de Mortimer m. Thomas de Beauchamp
> 7k. Maud de Beauchamp m. Roger de Clifford
> 8k. Katherine de Clifford m. Ralph de Greystoke
> 9k. Maud de Greystoke m. Eudes Welles [same as 9e above]
>
> 6l. Joan de Mortimer [daughter of 5k above] m. James de Audley [same as 6d above]
> On Thursday, February 16, 2017 at 1:12:56 PM UTC-5, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> > Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> > Do you descend from Llywelyn ap Iorwerth, Prince of North Wales? If so, perhaps you would be kind enough to post your line of descent from this great man on the newsgroup down to your New World immigrant.
> >
>
> Looks like I have about 12 possible traced:
>
> 1. Llywellen ap Iowerth
> 2a. Margred verch Llywellen m. Walter de Clifford
> 3a. Maud de Clifford m. John Giffard
> 4a. Katherine Giffard m. Nicholas de Audley
> 5a. Nicholas de Audley m. Joan Martin
> 6a. Alice de Audley m. Hugh de Meynell
> 7a. Isabel de Meynell m. Thomas de Shirley
> 8a. Hugh Shirley m. Beatrice Brewes
> 9a. Ralph Shirley m. Joan Basset
> 10a. Beatrice Shirley m. John Brome
> 11a. Isabel Brome m. John Denton
> 12a. Alice Denton m. Nicholas Purefoy
> 13a. Edward Purefoy m. Anne Fettiplace
> 14a. Mary Purefoy m. Thomas Thorne
> 15a. Susanna Thorne m. Roger Dudley
> 16a. Thomas Dudley b.1576 immigrant
>
>
> 12b. Thomas Denton [son of 11a above] m. Jane Webb
> 13b. Isabel Denton m. William ap Walter
> 14b. Thomasine Walter m. William Luckyn
> 15b. Judith Luckyn m. Edward Warde
> 16b. (probably) Mary Ward, immigrant
>
> 16c. (probably) Rebecca Ward [daughter of 15b above], immigrant
>
> 6d. James de Audley [son of 5a above] m. Joan de Mortimer
> 7d. Joan de Audley m. John Tuchet
> 8d. John Tuchet m. Maud
> 9d. John Tuchet m. Elizbeth Stafford
> 10d. Margaret Tuchet m. John Luttrell
> 11d. James Luttrell m. Elizabeth Courtenay
> 12d. Hugh Luttrell m. Margaret Hill
> 13d. Eleanor Luttrell m. Roger Yorke
> 14d. Elizabeth Yorke m. Edmund Percival
> 15d. Christian Percival m. Richard Lowle
> 16d. Percival Lowle b.1571, immigrant
>
> 2e. Margred verch Llywellen (same as 2a above) m. John de Braose
> 3e. William de Braose m. Alice de Multon
> 4e. William de Brewes m. Agnes
> 5e. Aline de Brewes m. John de Mowbray
> 6e. John de Mowbray m. Joan of Lancaster
> 7e. John de Mowbray m. Elizabeth de Segrave
> 8e. Eleanor de Mowbray m. John de Welles
> 9e. Eudes Welles m. Maud de Greystoke
> 10e. Lionel de Welles m. Joan Waterton
> 11e. Margaret Welles m. Thomas Dymoke
> 12e. Lionel Dymoke m. Joan Griffith
> 13e. Anne Dymoke m. John Goodricke
> 14e. Lionel Goodrick m. Winifred Sapcote
> 15e. Anne Goodrick m. Benjamin Bolles
> 16e. Thomas Bolles m. Elizabeth Perkins
> 17e. Joseph Bolles b.1608/9 immigrant.
>
> 12f. Jane Dymoke [daughter of 11e above] m. John Fulnetby
> 13f. [possibly] Katherine Fulnetby m. William Dynewell
> 14f. Anne Dynewell m. Henry Whitgift
> 15f. William Whitgift
> 16f. Elizabeth Whitgift m. Wymond Bradbury
> 17f. Thomas Bradbury, b. 1610/11 immigrant
>
> 5g. Joan de Brewes [daugther of 4e above] m. Richard Foliot
> 6g. Margery Foliot m. Hugh de Hastings
> 7g. Maud de Hastings m. Robert de la Mare
> 8g. Willema de la Mare m. John Roches
> 9g. Joan Roches m. Nicholas Baynton
> 10g. John Baynton m. Joan
> 11g. Henry Baynton
> 12g. Jane Baynton m. Thomas Prowse
> 13g. Mary Prowse m. John Gye
> 14g. Robert Gye m. Grace Dowrish
> 15g. Mary Gye b.c.1580, immigrant
>
> 3h. William de Braose [same as 3e above] m. Mary de Roos
> 4h. Peter de Brewes m. Agnes de Clifford
> 5h. Peter Brewes m. Joan
> 6h. Beatrice Brewes m. Hugh Shirley (same as 8a above)
>
> 1i. Llewellyn ap Iowerth (same as 1a above) m. Joan of England
> 2i. Gwladys Dhu m. Ralph de Mortimer
> 3i. Roger de Mortimer m. Maud de Braose
> 4i. Isabella de Mortimer m. John Fitz Alan
> 5i. Richard Fitz Alan m. Alice di Saluzzo
> 6i. Alice de Arundel m. Stephen de Segrave
> 7i. John de Segrave m. Margaret Marshal
> 8i. Elizabeth de Segrave m. John de Mowbray [same as 7e above]
>
> 6j. Eleanor de Arundel [daughter of 5i above] m. Henry de Percy
> 7j. Henry de Percy m. Idoine de Clifford
> 8j. Isabel de Percy m. William de Aton
> 9j. Elizabeth de Aton m. John de Conyers
> 10j. Robert Conyers m. Isabel Pert
> 11j. Joan Conyers m. Philip Dymoke
> 12j. Thomas Dymoke m. Margaret Welles [same as 11e above]
>
> 4k. Edmund de Mortimer [son of 3i above] m. Margaret de Fiennes
> 5k. Roger de Mortimer m. Joan de Geneville
> 6k. Katherine de Mortimer m. Thomas de Beauchamp
> 7k. Maud de Beauchamp m. Roger de Clifford
> 8k. Katherine de Clifford m. Ralph de Greystoke
> 9k. Maud de Greystoke m. Eudes Welles [same as 9e above]
>
> 6l. Joan de Mortimer [daughter of 5k above] m. James de Audley [same as 6d above]
h2buc...@gmail.com
Mar 26, 2017, 1:39:45 PM3/26/17
to
joe...@gmail.com
Mar 26, 2017, 3:17:19 PM3/26/17
to
Yes!
h2buc...@gmail.com
Mar 26, 2017, 10:08:57 PM3/26/17
to
On Sunday, March 26, 2017 at 3:17:19 PM UTC-4, joe...@gmail.com wrote:
> Yes!
Thank you! I learn so much from this group and I appreciate all of your dedication and knowledge.
> Yes!
Thank you! I learn so much from this group and I appreciate all of your dedication and knowledge.
Robert O'Connor
Apr 3, 2017, 3:33:56 AM4/3/17
to
> Dobyns Line 2
> 1. Llywelyn ap Iorweth = Lady Joan of Wales
> 2. Marared ferch Llywelyn = John de Braose
> 3. Baron William de Braose = Ailine de Multon
> 4. Baron William de Braose = Agnes ???
> 5. Aline de Braose = Baron John de Mowbray
> 6. Baron John de Mowbray = Joan of Lancaster
> 7. Baron John de Mowbray = Elizabeth de Segrave
> 8. Duke Thomas de Mowbray = Elizabeth fitz Alan
> 9. Isabel de Mowbray = Baron James de Berkeley
> 10. Elizabeth de Berkeley = Thomas Burdett
> 11. Margaret Burdett = Peter Cave
I have seen her referred to as daughter of "Thomas Burdet of Rothwell, Northants" (Ref: Nichols ‘The History & Antiquities of the County of Leicester’ Vol IV, p 371), but nothing more.
Can you therefore advise your source for making her the daughter of Thomas Burdett & Elizabeth Berkeley
Many thanks
Robert O'Connor
Robert O'Connor
Apr 3, 2017, 3:43:34 AM4/3/17
to
On Saturday, 18 February 2017 16:48:39 UTC+13, Lyn Wolf wrote:
> Llywelyn ap Iorwerth
> Margaret verch Llwelyn = Walter de Clifford
> Maud de Clifford = John Giffard
> Eleanor Giffard = Fulke le Strange
> Elizabeth le Strange = Robert Corbet
> Roger Corbet = Margaret de Erdington
> Robert Corbet = Margaret
> Blanche Corbet = Humphrey Coningsby
> Humphrey Coningsby = Alice Fereby
> William Coningsby = Beatrix Thursby
> Margaret Coningsby = Robert Allington
>
I am interested in the above suggestion that the parents of Sir Humphrey Coningsby d 1535 (M Alice Fereby) were another Humphrey Coningsby & a Blanche Corbet.
> Llywelyn ap Iorwerth
> Margaret verch Llwelyn = Walter de Clifford
> Maud de Clifford = John Giffard
> Eleanor Giffard = Fulke le Strange
> Elizabeth le Strange = Robert Corbet
> Roger Corbet = Margaret de Erdington
> Robert Corbet = Margaret
> Blanche Corbet = Humphrey Coningsby
> Humphrey Coningsby = Alice Fereby
> William Coningsby = Beatrix Thursby
> Margaret Coningsby = Robert Allington
>
According to the Coningsby pedigree in the Visitation of Worcester Sir Humphrey's parents were Thomas Coningsby & Katherine Waldeff?
Therefore, I would be very interested to learn the basis for showing Sir Humphrey's parents as Humphrey Coningsby & Blanche Corbet?
Robert O'Connor
Apr 3, 2017, 4:26:55 AM4/3/17
to
On Monday, 3 April 2017 19:33:56 UTC+12, Robert O'Connor wrote:
> > Dobyns Line 2
> > 1. Llywelyn ap Iorweth = Lady Joan of Wales
> > 2. Marared ferch Llywelyn = John de Braose
> > 3. Baron William de Braose = Ailine de Multon
> > 4. Baron William de Braose = Agnes ???
> > 5. Aline de Braose = Baron John de Mowbray
> > 6. Baron John de Mowbray = Joan of Lancaster
> > 7. Baron John de Mowbray = Elizabeth de Segrave
> > 8. Duke Thomas de Mowbray = Elizabeth fitz Alan
> > 9. Isabel de Mowbray = Baron James de Berkeley
> > 10. Elizabeth de Berkeley = Thomas Burdett
> > 11. Margaret Burdett = Peter Cave
>
> As a Cave descendant, I have never before seen it said that the wife of this Peter Cave was Margaret daughter of Thomas Burdett & Elizabeth Berkeley.
>
> I have seen her referred to as daughter of "Thomas Burdet of Rothwell, Northants" (Ref: Nichols ‘The History & Antiquities of the County of Leicester’ Vol IV, p 371), but nothing more.
>
> Can you therefore advise your source for making her the daughter of Thomas Burdett & Elizabeth Berkeley
>
> Many thanks
> Robert O'Connor
>
I see from several traditional sources such as Burke attest to Elizabeth Berkeley marrying a "Thomas Burdet of Arrow, Warwickshire". However, I can find no evidence that "Thomas Burdet of Arrow, Warwickshire" was one and the same as "Thomas Burdet of Rothwell [Rowell], Northamptonshire"?
> > Dobyns Line 2
> > 1. Llywelyn ap Iorweth = Lady Joan of Wales
> > 2. Marared ferch Llywelyn = John de Braose
> > 3. Baron William de Braose = Ailine de Multon
> > 4. Baron William de Braose = Agnes ???
> > 5. Aline de Braose = Baron John de Mowbray
> > 6. Baron John de Mowbray = Joan of Lancaster
> > 7. Baron John de Mowbray = Elizabeth de Segrave
> > 8. Duke Thomas de Mowbray = Elizabeth fitz Alan
> > 9. Isabel de Mowbray = Baron James de Berkeley
> > 10. Elizabeth de Berkeley = Thomas Burdett
> > 11. Margaret Burdett = Peter Cave
>
> As a Cave descendant, I have never before seen it said that the wife of this Peter Cave was Margaret daughter of Thomas Burdett & Elizabeth Berkeley.
>
> I have seen her referred to as daughter of "Thomas Burdet of Rothwell, Northants" (Ref: Nichols ‘The History & Antiquities of the County of Leicester’ Vol IV, p 371), but nothing more.
>
> Can you therefore advise your source for making her the daughter of Thomas Burdett & Elizabeth Berkeley
>
> Many thanks
> Robert O'Connor
>
Paulo Canedo
Sep 13, 2017, 4:20:07 PM9/13/17
to
Llywelyn had in marriage with her mother Joan were passed to Gwladys'
husband Ralph de Mortimer following their marriage.
kesy...@gmail.com
Apr 15, 2020, 3:23:08 PM4/15/20
to
Hi,
While I do not descend from Llywelyn Fawr, I am helping a friend who may. I have a question that may answer my question.
Sir Edward Griffin claimed descent from Llywelyn "the Last" ap Gruffydd who married Eleanor de Montfort, daughter of Simon.
This was attested to by Sir Richard St. George and the learned Camden in the reign of Edward II.
I know most records do not show a son by that name, odds favor him being illegitimate. However, if anyone could have spirited a son to be raised, it would have been a daughter of de Montfort.
My information comes from "The Peerage" by John DeBrett.
I can supply more info, but I am not sure if this will be received by anyone, let alone read. I have sent out 3 such inquiries and not received a response.
Thank You,
taf
Apr 15, 2020, 7:04:12 PM4/15/20
to
It is hard to address the Edward Griffith claim beyond this with so little information. What specifically is the source? Debrett's Peerage has been publishing since the 1760s, and the degree to which it is considered reliable varies a lot depending on which edition we are talking about. Where was this Edward Griffin from? When did he live? What else do you know about him?
taf
kesy...@gmail.com
Apr 20, 2020, 1:57:41 PM4/20/20
to
That attestation came during the reign of Edward II, further thinking, made me realize it was an illegitimate son. While the time of illegitimacy-stigma has passed, this was Wales.
I am not at home and away from my notes, but Edward gave birth to a son Edward and they descend into the Griffin's of Braybrooke Married into the Howard family and a couple of men from later generations were Field Marshalls That line begins with a John, who is the 3d named person in my notes.
The main reason for accepting this claim is that I have found that certain families intermarry across the generations.
The Griffin family that I am researching traces their ancestry to Edward III of England and then James I /VI. Isabel of Mar descends out of the Welsh princes.
My task was to find relatives from other lines and unexpectedly came upon what could be the Welsh dynastic connection.
-I found this in some online notes. I don't want to go back and re-write my letter lest I lose it.
"I have been seeking clarification on another person in this extended family.
Sir Edward Griffin of Dingley, he claimed to be the son of Leolin, Prince of North Wales, who was kept in the Tower by Henry III.
Sir Richard St. George and the learned Camden attested to his claim in the reign of Edward II.”
{I believe I obtained this information from a Debrett’s Peerage. I am not that adept with a computer and I don’t want to be more clear on the location because in finding it, I am liable to lose the whole thing.} If you have questions, just ask.
Leolin is a derivative of Llewellyn and I am guessing it is a reference to Llywelyn the Last, who was married to Eleanor, daughter of Simon de Montfort. I know they only a daughter, Gwenillion, who was placed in a convent by Edward I.
Sir Edward could either have been secreted out of the castle or he is an illegitimate son of Llywelyn.
I am researching the Griffin ancestry which has been traced to early kings of the Wessex, the Pictish, dal Raida . I am looking for the first Griffin of record."
Thank you,
Kevin
P J Evans
Apr 20, 2020, 2:34:40 PM4/20/20
to
kesy...@gmail.com
Apr 20, 2020, 2:36:42 PM4/20/20
to
taf
Apr 20, 2020, 2:44:48 PM4/20/20
to
On Monday, April 20, 2020 at 10:57:41 AM UTC-7, kesy...@gmail.com wrote:
> That attestation came during the reign of Edward II, further thinking, made
> me realize it was an illegitimate son.
Actually it didn't - see below.
> me realize it was an illegitimate son.
> The main reason for accepting this claim is that I have found that certain
> families intermarry across the generations.
> Sir Edward Griffin of Dingley, he claimed to be the son of Leolin, Prince
> of North Wales, who was kept in the Tower by Henry III.
> Sir Richard St. George and the learned Camden attested to his claim in the
> reign of Edward II.”
> Leolin is a derivative of Llewellyn and I am guessing it is a reference to
> Llywelyn the Last, who was married to Eleanor, daughter of Simon de
> Montfort. I know they only a daughter, Gwenillion, who was placed in a
> convent by Edward I.
> Sir Edward could either have been secreted out of the castle or he is an
> illegitimate son of Llywelyn.
. . . or more likely, there could be no authentic basis for this whatsoever. There doesn't appear to be any Welsh tradition that such a child of Llywelyn the Last existed, legitimate or otherwise. As I hinted at before, it is not at all rare for someone to claim to be descended from a king who had no actual descendants.
> Llywelyn the Last, who was married to Eleanor, daughter of Simon de
> Montfort. I know they only a daughter, Gwenillion, who was placed in a
> convent by Edward I.
> Sir Edward could either have been secreted out of the castle or he is an
> illegitimate son of Llywelyn.
Anyhow, your account seems to conflate two different events. Collins' Peerage (1725) vol. 3, p. 343 reports::
"IT appears by the Records of this Family, that the Name was antiently written Griffith, Griphon, Griffen, and Gryffin, and is of Welsh Extraction: But whether from Griffin, the Son of Leolin Prince of North Wales, who with
his eldest Son being long kept Prisoner in the Tower of London, by Henry the Third, his Wife covenanted to deliver two other of her Sons as Hostages, and that her Husband Griffin and his eldest Son should stand to the Articles which she made with the King for his Liberty: Or whether from Griffin of Brimfield, who fled to England for Refuge; his Houses being destroyed and his Lands laid Waste, for adhering to King Henry the Third of England; is not evidently
made out.
But from a Pedigree attested by Sir Richard St. George, and the learned Camden, it appears, that in the Reign of Edward the Second, the Heir-General of the Family of the Favells of Weston-Favel in the County of Northampton, being married to Sir John Griffin, he made that the Place of his Abode, as did his Posterity, till by the Death of Warren Lord Latimer of Braybrook, who having married Catherine,"
So, he has two conflicting origin legends, one of which makes him son of an imprisoned Llywelyn who had at least three sons by his wife (which seems to be a chimera of Llywelyn the Great and Llywelyn the Last), while the other derives them simply from a run of the mill Welsh refugee. Then, separately, it reports that a pedigree set down by Richard St. George (d. 1535) and William Camden (d. 1623) reports that in the reign of Edward II, John Griffin married. There is no attestation of the legend in Edward II's reign, and even the somewhat credulous Collins was unwilling to go with it. By 1846, the quite-credulous Burke left out the origin claims entirely and begins his pedigree with the John Griffin temp. Edward II.
taf
taf
Apr 20, 2020, 2:53:18 PM4/20/20
to
On Monday, April 20, 2020 at 11:44:48 AM UTC-7, taf wrote:
> "IT appears by the Records of this Family, that the Name was antiently
> written Griffith, Griphon, Griffen, and Gryffin, and is of Welsh Extraction:
> But whether from Griffin, the Son of Leolin Prince of North Wales, who with
> his eldest Son being long kept Prisoner in the Tower of London, by Henry the
> Third, his Wife covenanted to deliver two other of her Sons as Hostages, and
> that her Husband Griffin and his eldest Son should stand to the Articles
> which she made with the King for his Liberty:
> "IT appears by the Records of this Family, that the Name was antiently
> written Griffith, Griphon, Griffen, and Gryffin, and is of Welsh Extraction:
> But whether from Griffin, the Son of Leolin Prince of North Wales, who with
> his eldest Son being long kept Prisoner in the Tower of London, by Henry the
> Third, his Wife covenanted to deliver two other of her Sons as Hostages, and
> that her Husband Griffin and his eldest Son should stand to the Articles
> which she made with the King for his Liberty:
> So, he has two conflicting origin legends, one of which makes him son of an
> imprisoned Llywelyn who had at least three sons by his wife (which seems to
> be a chimera of Llywelyn the Great and Llywelyn the Last)
Oh, wait, I see now. I was misreading it. The Leolin named is Llywelyn the Great, and this claim is that it was Gruffudd ap Llywellyn the Great and his eldest son (Llywelyn the Last) who were prisoners, and that two of Gruffudd's sons were sent as hostages, with the implication that the Griffiths descended from one of these brothers of Llywelyn the Last.
> imprisoned Llywelyn who had at least three sons by his wife (which seems to
> be a chimera of Llywelyn the Great and Llywelyn the Last)
taf
taf
Apr 20, 2020, 3:08:51 PM4/20/20
to
On Monday, April 20, 2020 at 11:44:48 AM UTC-7, taf wrote:
> But from a Pedigree attested by Sir Richard St. George, and the learned
> Camden, it appears, that in the Reign of Edward the Second, the Heir-General
> of the Family of the Favells of Weston-Favel in the County of Northampton,
> being married to Sir John Griffin, he made that the Place of his Abode, as
> did his Posterity, till by the Death of Warren Lord Latimer of Braybrook,
> who having married Catherine,"
While I can't identify this pedigree, presumably complied in the late 1500s or early 1600s when both were at the Coll. of Arms, their source is certainly the 1564 visitation of Northamptonshire, which begins its pedigree for 'Griffin of Braybrooke' with:
> Camden, it appears, that in the Reign of Edward the Second, the Heir-General
> of the Family of the Favells of Weston-Favel in the County of Northampton,
> being married to Sir John Griffin, he made that the Place of his Abode, as
> did his Posterity, till by the Death of Warren Lord Latimer of Braybrook,
> who having married Catherine,"
"John Griffin of Weston Favell, co. North'ton, Esq., mar. Elizabeth, da. and
one of the heirs of John Favell of Weston Favell, Esq., and by her hath issue, . . . "
https://archive.org/stream/visitationsofnor00harvrich#page/23/mode/1up
This short entry contains all of the information supposedly found in the St. George/Camden pedigree.
taf
kesy...@gmail.com
Apr 20, 2020, 3:18:35 PM4/20/20
to
taf
Apr 20, 2020, 3:51:17 PM4/20/20
to
On Monday, April 20, 2020 at 12:08:51 PM UTC-7, taf wrote:
> "John Griffin of Weston Favell, co. North'ton, Esq., mar. Elizabeth, da. and
> one of the heirs of John Favell of Weston Favell, Esq., and by her hath issue,
> . . . "
>
I have found a source that traces the pedigree before John. I can't attest to its reliability, so beware.
> "John Griffin of Weston Favell, co. North'ton, Esq., mar. Elizabeth, da. and
> one of the heirs of John Favell of Weston Favell, Esq., and by her hath issue,
> . . . "
>
John Cole, The History and Antiquities of Weston Favell (1827) reports the following (beginning p. 4):
"On the attainder of the Earl of Moreton this estate seems to have been included in that portion which descended to Crevequer, under whom the family of Boys or Boso obtained an intermediate seignory. Amongst the small fees of Moreton in the scutage of 19 Hen. III. (1234), Hugh Favell was assessed 16s. 8d. for one in "Weston" of the fees of Nicholas de Haversham, of Haversham in Buckinghamshire, who married Emma, sister of Ernald de Bosco; and in the same record, about 25 Hen. III. (1240), John Favel and Richard Griffin are certified to hold two parts of a small fee in Weston of the fees of Ernald de Bosco. In the book of knight's fees, 24 Edw. 1 (1295), John Favel (lately deceased) was found to hold Weston, by service of one fee, of the heirs of Nicholas de Haversham, who held of Robert (Ernald) de Boys, and he of Robert de Crevequer, who held from the king in capite; in 10 Edw. III. (1338), Sir William de la Paunch, one of the coheirs of Haversham, died seized of one fee in Weston, in tenure of Sir John Griffin, held of William Zouch, of Harringworth, the other coheir of Boys, as of his manor of Claybrook in Leicestershire.
. . .
Sir John Griffin, who enjoyed one portion by inheritance, and the other in right of his wife, the heiress of Favell . . . "
https://books.google.com/books?id=BBUHAAAAQAAJ&pg=PP16
It would seem, then, that John Griffin holding Weston in temp Edward II was the heir of Richard Griffin, holding lands in Weston in 1240. This makes any connection to Gruffudd ap Llywelyn unlikely.
taf
Clare Reyes
May 4, 2020, 4:07:29 PM5/4/20
to
Hi John
I too am "apparently" descended through Leonard and Mary, although information on descendency through those who didnt travel to the New World is limited and not really documented in any great detail and I would certainly like to document my line - should it be as I beleive!
I live in Yorkshire and it appears that my ancestors feet didnt travel out of the county :)
This is great info to document my line to Leonard and Mary. From thereon down through the Dodsworth line to Harriet Issott (nee Dodsworth) into the 19th century and the the slums of Victorian Leeds and the coal mines of Yorkshire I need to spend time investigating! Sadly a full time job and teenage kids are getting in the way :D
Thanks
Clare
On Friday, 17 February 2017 07:44:18 UTC, John Watson wrote:
> On Thursday, 16 February 2017 22:17:23 UTC, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> > On Thursday, February 16, 2017 at 12:02:22 PM UTC-7, mk wrote:
> > > would you be interested in a line that is not new world?
> >
> > Absolutely. I never met a record I didn't like.
> >
> > DR
>
> Dear Douglas,
>
> Leonard Vavasour (1519-1598) and Mary Hotham (1523-1597) are my 12x great-grandparents. Here are my 13 lines from Llewelyn to Leonard and Mary. Line 4 is a bit problematic.
>
> 1. line:
> 1. Llywelyn ap Iorwerth m. Joan of England
> 2. Gwladus Du m. Ralph de Mortimer
> 6. Edmund de Arundel m. Alice de Warenne
> 7. Aline de Arundel m. Roger Lestrange
> 8. Lucy Lestrange m. William Willoughby
> 9. Margery Willoughby m. William FitzHugh
> 10. Joan FitzHugh m. John Scrope
> 11. Henry Scrope m. Elizabeth Percy
> 12. Ann Scrope m. John Vavasour
> 13. Leonard Vavasour m. Mary Hotham
>
> 2. line:
> 1. Llywelyn ap Iorwerth m. Joan of England
> 2. Gwladus Du m. Ralph de Mortimer
> 6. Edmund de Arundel m. Alice de Warenne
> 7. Aline de Arundel m. Roger Lestrange
> 8. Lucy Lestrange m. William Willoughby
> 9. Margery Willoughby m. William FitzHugh
> 10. Lora FitzHugh m. John Constable
> 11. Ralph Constable m. Anne Eure
> 12. Lora Constable m. John Hotham IX
> 13. John Hotham X m. Elizabeth Headlam
> 14. Mary Hotham m. Leonard Vavasour
>
> 3. line:
> 1. Llywelyn ap Iorwerth m. Joan of England
> 2. Gwladus Du m. Ralph de Mortimer
> 6. Eleanor de Arundel m. Henry de Percy
> 7. Henry de Percy m. Idoine de Clifford
> 8. Isabel de Percy m. William de Aton
> 9. Catherine de Aton m. Ralph de Eure
> 10. William Eure m. Maud FitzHugh
> 11. Elizabeth Eure m. John Hotham VII
> 12. John Hotham VIII m. Isabel Hildyard
> 13. John Hotham IX m. Lora Constable
> 14. John Hotham X m. Elizabeth Headlam
> 15. Mary Hotham m. Leonard Vavasour
>
> 4. line:
> 1. Llywelyn ap Iorwerth m. Joan of England
> 2. Gwladus Du m. Ralph de Mortimer
> 6. Eleanor de Arundel m. Henry de Percy
> 7. Henry de Percy m. Idoine de Clifford
> 8. Isabel de Percy m. William de Aton
> 9. Catherine de Aton m. Ralph de Eure
> 10. Robert Eure m. Elizabeth Mallory
> 11. Elizabeth Eure m. William Bulmer
> 12. Ralph Bulmer m. Agnes Warde
> 13. nn Bulmer m. Christopher Headlam
> 14. Elizabeth Headlam m. John Hotham X
> 15. Mary Hotham m. Leonard Vavasour
>
> 5. line:
> 1. Llywelyn ap Iorwerth m. Joan of England
> 2. Gwladus Du m. Ralph de Mortimer
> 6. Eleanor de Arundel m. Henry de Percy
> 7. Henry de Percy m. Idoine de Clifford
> 8. Isabel de Percy m. William de Aton
> 9. Catherine de Aton m. Ralph de Eure
> 10. Robert Eure m. Elizabeth Mallory
> 11. Robert Eure m. Ellen Ingleby
> 12. Anne Eure m. Ralph Constable
> 13. Lora Constable m. John Hotham IX
> 14. John Hotham X m. Elizabeth Headlam
> 15. Mary Hotham m. Leonard Vavasour
>
> 6. line:
> 1. Llywelyn ap Iorwerth m. Joan of England
> 2. Gwladus Du m. Ralph de Mortimer
> 6. Eleanor de Arundel m. Henry de Percy
> 7. Henry de Percy m. Idoine de Clifford
> 8. Henry de Percy m. Mary Plantagenet
> 9. Henry de Percy m. Margaret de Neville
> 10. Henry Percy m. Elizabeth Mortimer
> 11. Henry Percy m. Eleanor Neville
> 12. Henry Percy m. Eleanor Poynings
> 13. Elizabeth Percy m. Henry Scrope
> 14. Ann Scrope m. John Vavasour
> 15. Leonard Vavasour m. Mary Hotham
>
> 7. line:
> 1. Llywelyn ap Iorwerth m. Joan of England
> 2. Gwladus Du m. Ralph de Mortimer
> 6. Eleanor de Arundel m. Henry de Percy
> 7. Henry de Percy m. Idoine de Clifford
> 8. Maud de Percy m. John de Neville
> 9. Ralph de Neville m. Margaret de Stafford
> 10. Margaret Neville m. Richard le Scrope
> 11. Henry Scrope m. Elizabeth Scrope
> 12. John Scrope m. Joan FitzHugh
> 13. Henry Scrope m. Elizabeth Percy
> 14. Ann Scrope m. John Vavasour
> 15. Leonard Vavasour m. Mary Hotham
>
> 8. line:
> 1. Llywelyn ap Iorwerth m. Joan of England
> 2. Gwladus Du m. Ralph de Mortimer
> 6. Eleanor de Arundel m. Henry de Percy
> 7. Henry de Percy m. Idoine de Clifford
> 8. Maud de Percy m. John de Neville
> 9. Ralph de Neville m. Joan Beaufort
> 10. Eleanor Neville m. Henry Percy
> 11. Henry Percy m. Eleanor Poynings
> 12. Elizabeth Percy m. Henry Scrope
> 13. Ann Scrope m. John Vavasour
> 14. Leonard Vavasour m. Mary Hotham
>
> 9. line:
> 1. Llywelyn ap Iorwerth m. Joan of England
> 2. Gwladus Du m. Ralph de Mortimer
> 3. Roger de Mortimer m. Maud de Braose
> 4. Edmund de Mortimer m. Margaret de Fiennes
> 5. Roger de Mortimer m. Joan de Geneville
> 6. Edmund de Mortimer m. Elizabeth de Badlesmere
> 7. Roger de Mortimer m. Philippe de Montagu
> 8. Edmund de Mortimer m. Philippe Plantagenet
> 9. Elizabeth Mortimer m. Henry Percy
> 10. Henry Percy m. Eleanor Neville
> 11. Henry Percy m. Eleanor Poynings
> 12. Elizabeth Percy m. Henry Scrope
> 13. Ann Scrope m. John Vavasour
> 14. Leonard Vavasour m. Mary Hotham
>
> 10. line:
> 1. Llywelyn ap Iorwerth m. Joan of England
> 2. Gwladus Du m. Ralph de Mortimer
> 3. Roger de Mortimer m. Maud de Braose
> 4. Edmund de Mortimer m. Margaret de Fiennes
> 5. Roger de Mortimer m. Joan de Geneville
> 6. Catherine de Mortimer m. Thomas de Beauchamp
> 7. Philippe de Beauchamp m. Hugh de Stafford
> 8. Margaret de Stafford m. Ralph de Neville
> 9. Margaret Neville m. Richard le Scrope
> 10. Henry Scrope m. Elizabeth Scrope
> 11. John Scrope m. Joan FitzHugh
> 12. Henry Scrope m. Elizabeth Percy
> 13. Ann Scrope m. John Vavasour
> 14. Leonard Vavasour m. Mary Hotham
>
> 11. line:
> 1. Llywelyn ap Iorwerth m. Joan of England
> 2. Gwladus Du m. Ralph de Mortimer
> 3. Roger de Mortimer m. Maud de Braose
> 4. Edmund de Mortimer m. Margaret de Fiennes
> 5. Maud de Mortimer m. Theobald de Verdun
> 6. Joan de Verdun m. Thomas de Furnival
> 7. Maud de Furnival m. Walter de Montgomery
> 8. Nicholas Montgomery I m. Margery Foljambe
> 9. Maud Montgomery m. Thomas Clarel II
> 10. Margaret Clarel m. William Gascoigne IV
> 11. Joan Gascoigne m. Henry Vavasour
> 12. Henry Vavasour m. Elizabeth Everingham
> 13. John Vavasour m. Ann Scrope
> 14. Leonard Vavasour m. Mary Hotham
>
> 12. line:
> 1. Llywelyn ap Iorwerth m. N.N.
> 2. Margaret ferch Llewelyn m. Walter de Clifford III
> 3. Maud de Clifford m. John Giffard
> 4. Catherine Giffard m. Nicholas de Audley
> 5. Nicholas de Audley m. Joan Martin
> 6. Alice de Audley m. Hugh de Meynell
> 7. Isabel de Meynell m. Gerard de Braybrook III
> 8. Nicole Braybrook m. Thomas Chaworth VI
> 9. Elizabeth Chaworth m. John le Scrope
> 10. Elizabeth Scrope m. Henry Scrope
> 11. John Scrope m. Joan FitzHugh
> 12. Henry Scrope m. Elizabeth Percy
> 13. Ann Scrope m. John Vavasour
> 14. Leonard Vavasour m. Mary Hotham
>
> 13. line:
> 1. Llywelyn ap Iorwerth m. N.N.
> 2. Margaret ferch Llewelyn m. Walter de Clifford III
> 3. Maud de Clifford m. John Giffard
> 4. Eleanor Giffard m. Fulk Lestrange
> 5. John Lestrange m. Ankaret Botiller
> 6. Alianor Lestrange m. Reynold Grey
> 7. Reynold Grey m. Margaret Ros
> 8. Elizabeth Grey m. Robert de Poynings
> 9. Richard Poynings m. Eleanor Berkeley
> 10. Eleanor Poynings m. Henry Percy
> 11. Elizabeth Percy m. Henry Scrope
> 12. Ann Scrope m. John Vavasour
> 13. Leonard Vavasour m. Mary Hotham
>
> Regards,
> John
I too am "apparently" descended through Leonard and Mary, although information on descendency through those who didnt travel to the New World is limited and not really documented in any great detail and I would certainly like to document my line - should it be as I beleive!
I live in Yorkshire and it appears that my ancestors feet didnt travel out of the county :)
This is great info to document my line to Leonard and Mary. From thereon down through the Dodsworth line to Harriet Issott (nee Dodsworth) into the 19th century and the the slums of Victorian Leeds and the coal mines of Yorkshire I need to spend time investigating! Sadly a full time job and teenage kids are getting in the way :D
Thanks
Clare
On Friday, 17 February 2017 07:44:18 UTC, John Watson wrote:
> On Thursday, 16 February 2017 22:17:23 UTC, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> > On Thursday, February 16, 2017 at 12:02:22 PM UTC-7, mk wrote:
> > > would you be interested in a line that is not new world?
> >
> > Absolutely. I never met a record I didn't like.
> >
> > DR
>
> Dear Douglas,
>
> Leonard Vavasour (1519-1598) and Mary Hotham (1523-1597) are my 12x great-grandparents. Here are my 13 lines from Llewelyn to Leonard and Mary. Line 4 is a bit problematic.
>
> 1. line:
> 1. Llywelyn ap Iorwerth m. Joan of England
> 2. Gwladus Du m. Ralph de Mortimer
> 3. Roger de Mortimer m. Maud de Braose
> 4. Isabel de Mortimer m. John FitzAlan
> 5. Richard de Arundel m. Alice di Saluzzo
> 4. Isabel de Mortimer m. John FitzAlan
> 6. Edmund de Arundel m. Alice de Warenne
> 7. Aline de Arundel m. Roger Lestrange
> 8. Lucy Lestrange m. William Willoughby
> 9. Margery Willoughby m. William FitzHugh
> 10. Joan FitzHugh m. John Scrope
> 11. Henry Scrope m. Elizabeth Percy
> 12. Ann Scrope m. John Vavasour
> 13. Leonard Vavasour m. Mary Hotham
>
> 2. line:
> 1. Llywelyn ap Iorwerth m. Joan of England
> 2. Gwladus Du m. Ralph de Mortimer
> 3. Roger de Mortimer m. Maud de Braose
> 4. Isabel de Mortimer m. John FitzAlan
> 5. Richard de Arundel m. Alice di Saluzzo
> 4. Isabel de Mortimer m. John FitzAlan
> 6. Edmund de Arundel m. Alice de Warenne
> 7. Aline de Arundel m. Roger Lestrange
> 8. Lucy Lestrange m. William Willoughby
> 9. Margery Willoughby m. William FitzHugh
> 10. Lora FitzHugh m. John Constable
> 11. Ralph Constable m. Anne Eure
> 12. Lora Constable m. John Hotham IX
> 13. John Hotham X m. Elizabeth Headlam
> 14. Mary Hotham m. Leonard Vavasour
>
> 3. line:
> 1. Llywelyn ap Iorwerth m. Joan of England
> 2. Gwladus Du m. Ralph de Mortimer
> 3. Roger de Mortimer m. Maud de Braose
> 4. Isabel de Mortimer m. John FitzAlan
> 5. Richard de Arundel m. Alice di Saluzzo
> 4. Isabel de Mortimer m. John FitzAlan
> 6. Eleanor de Arundel m. Henry de Percy
> 7. Henry de Percy m. Idoine de Clifford
> 8. Isabel de Percy m. William de Aton
> 9. Catherine de Aton m. Ralph de Eure
> 10. William Eure m. Maud FitzHugh
> 11. Elizabeth Eure m. John Hotham VII
> 12. John Hotham VIII m. Isabel Hildyard
> 13. John Hotham IX m. Lora Constable
> 14. John Hotham X m. Elizabeth Headlam
> 15. Mary Hotham m. Leonard Vavasour
>
> 4. line:
> 1. Llywelyn ap Iorwerth m. Joan of England
> 2. Gwladus Du m. Ralph de Mortimer
> 3. Roger de Mortimer m. Maud de Braose
> 4. Isabel de Mortimer m. John FitzAlan
> 5. Richard de Arundel m. Alice di Saluzzo
> 4. Isabel de Mortimer m. John FitzAlan
> 6. Eleanor de Arundel m. Henry de Percy
> 7. Henry de Percy m. Idoine de Clifford
> 8. Isabel de Percy m. William de Aton
> 9. Catherine de Aton m. Ralph de Eure
> 10. Robert Eure m. Elizabeth Mallory
> 11. Elizabeth Eure m. William Bulmer
> 12. Ralph Bulmer m. Agnes Warde
> 13. nn Bulmer m. Christopher Headlam
> 14. Elizabeth Headlam m. John Hotham X
> 15. Mary Hotham m. Leonard Vavasour
>
> 5. line:
> 1. Llywelyn ap Iorwerth m. Joan of England
> 2. Gwladus Du m. Ralph de Mortimer
> 3. Roger de Mortimer m. Maud de Braose
> 4. Isabel de Mortimer m. John FitzAlan
> 5. Richard de Arundel m. Alice di Saluzzo
> 4. Isabel de Mortimer m. John FitzAlan
> 6. Eleanor de Arundel m. Henry de Percy
> 7. Henry de Percy m. Idoine de Clifford
> 8. Isabel de Percy m. William de Aton
> 9. Catherine de Aton m. Ralph de Eure
> 10. Robert Eure m. Elizabeth Mallory
> 11. Robert Eure m. Ellen Ingleby
> 12. Anne Eure m. Ralph Constable
> 13. Lora Constable m. John Hotham IX
> 14. John Hotham X m. Elizabeth Headlam
> 15. Mary Hotham m. Leonard Vavasour
>
> 6. line:
> 1. Llywelyn ap Iorwerth m. Joan of England
> 2. Gwladus Du m. Ralph de Mortimer
> 3. Roger de Mortimer m. Maud de Braose
> 4. Isabel de Mortimer m. John FitzAlan
> 5. Richard de Arundel m. Alice di Saluzzo
> 4. Isabel de Mortimer m. John FitzAlan
> 6. Eleanor de Arundel m. Henry de Percy
> 7. Henry de Percy m. Idoine de Clifford
> 8. Henry de Percy m. Mary Plantagenet
> 9. Henry de Percy m. Margaret de Neville
> 10. Henry Percy m. Elizabeth Mortimer
> 11. Henry Percy m. Eleanor Neville
> 12. Henry Percy m. Eleanor Poynings
> 13. Elizabeth Percy m. Henry Scrope
> 14. Ann Scrope m. John Vavasour
> 15. Leonard Vavasour m. Mary Hotham
>
> 7. line:
> 1. Llywelyn ap Iorwerth m. Joan of England
> 2. Gwladus Du m. Ralph de Mortimer
> 3. Roger de Mortimer m. Maud de Braose
> 4. Isabel de Mortimer m. John FitzAlan
> 5. Richard de Arundel m. Alice di Saluzzo
> 4. Isabel de Mortimer m. John FitzAlan
> 6. Eleanor de Arundel m. Henry de Percy
> 7. Henry de Percy m. Idoine de Clifford
> 8. Maud de Percy m. John de Neville
> 9. Ralph de Neville m. Margaret de Stafford
> 10. Margaret Neville m. Richard le Scrope
> 11. Henry Scrope m. Elizabeth Scrope
> 12. John Scrope m. Joan FitzHugh
> 13. Henry Scrope m. Elizabeth Percy
> 14. Ann Scrope m. John Vavasour
> 15. Leonard Vavasour m. Mary Hotham
>
> 8. line:
> 1. Llywelyn ap Iorwerth m. Joan of England
> 2. Gwladus Du m. Ralph de Mortimer
> 3. Roger de Mortimer m. Maud de Braose
> 4. Isabel de Mortimer m. John FitzAlan
> 5. Richard de Arundel m. Alice di Saluzzo
> 4. Isabel de Mortimer m. John FitzAlan
> 6. Eleanor de Arundel m. Henry de Percy
> 7. Henry de Percy m. Idoine de Clifford
> 8. Maud de Percy m. John de Neville
> 9. Ralph de Neville m. Joan Beaufort
> 10. Eleanor Neville m. Henry Percy
> 11. Henry Percy m. Eleanor Poynings
> 12. Elizabeth Percy m. Henry Scrope
> 13. Ann Scrope m. John Vavasour
> 14. Leonard Vavasour m. Mary Hotham
>
> 9. line:
> 1. Llywelyn ap Iorwerth m. Joan of England
> 2. Gwladus Du m. Ralph de Mortimer
> 3. Roger de Mortimer m. Maud de Braose
> 4. Edmund de Mortimer m. Margaret de Fiennes
> 5. Roger de Mortimer m. Joan de Geneville
> 6. Edmund de Mortimer m. Elizabeth de Badlesmere
> 7. Roger de Mortimer m. Philippe de Montagu
> 8. Edmund de Mortimer m. Philippe Plantagenet
> 9. Elizabeth Mortimer m. Henry Percy
> 10. Henry Percy m. Eleanor Neville
> 11. Henry Percy m. Eleanor Poynings
> 12. Elizabeth Percy m. Henry Scrope
> 13. Ann Scrope m. John Vavasour
> 14. Leonard Vavasour m. Mary Hotham
>
> 10. line:
> 1. Llywelyn ap Iorwerth m. Joan of England
> 2. Gwladus Du m. Ralph de Mortimer
> 3. Roger de Mortimer m. Maud de Braose
> 4. Edmund de Mortimer m. Margaret de Fiennes
> 5. Roger de Mortimer m. Joan de Geneville
> 6. Catherine de Mortimer m. Thomas de Beauchamp
> 7. Philippe de Beauchamp m. Hugh de Stafford
> 8. Margaret de Stafford m. Ralph de Neville
> 9. Margaret Neville m. Richard le Scrope
> 10. Henry Scrope m. Elizabeth Scrope
> 11. John Scrope m. Joan FitzHugh
> 12. Henry Scrope m. Elizabeth Percy
> 13. Ann Scrope m. John Vavasour
> 14. Leonard Vavasour m. Mary Hotham
>
> 11. line:
> 1. Llywelyn ap Iorwerth m. Joan of England
> 2. Gwladus Du m. Ralph de Mortimer
> 3. Roger de Mortimer m. Maud de Braose
> 4. Edmund de Mortimer m. Margaret de Fiennes
> 5. Maud de Mortimer m. Theobald de Verdun
> 6. Joan de Verdun m. Thomas de Furnival
> 7. Maud de Furnival m. Walter de Montgomery
> 8. Nicholas Montgomery I m. Margery Foljambe
> 9. Maud Montgomery m. Thomas Clarel II
> 10. Margaret Clarel m. William Gascoigne IV
> 11. Joan Gascoigne m. Henry Vavasour
> 12. Henry Vavasour m. Elizabeth Everingham
> 13. John Vavasour m. Ann Scrope
> 14. Leonard Vavasour m. Mary Hotham
>
> 12. line:
> 1. Llywelyn ap Iorwerth m. N.N.
> 2. Margaret ferch Llewelyn m. Walter de Clifford III
> 3. Maud de Clifford m. John Giffard
> 4. Catherine Giffard m. Nicholas de Audley
> 5. Nicholas de Audley m. Joan Martin
> 6. Alice de Audley m. Hugh de Meynell
> 7. Isabel de Meynell m. Gerard de Braybrook III
> 8. Nicole Braybrook m. Thomas Chaworth VI
> 9. Elizabeth Chaworth m. John le Scrope
> 10. Elizabeth Scrope m. Henry Scrope
> 11. John Scrope m. Joan FitzHugh
> 12. Henry Scrope m. Elizabeth Percy
> 13. Ann Scrope m. John Vavasour
> 14. Leonard Vavasour m. Mary Hotham
>
> 13. line:
> 1. Llywelyn ap Iorwerth m. N.N.
> 2. Margaret ferch Llewelyn m. Walter de Clifford III
> 3. Maud de Clifford m. John Giffard
> 4. Eleanor Giffard m. Fulk Lestrange
> 5. John Lestrange m. Ankaret Botiller
> 6. Alianor Lestrange m. Reynold Grey
> 7. Reynold Grey m. Margaret Ros
> 8. Elizabeth Grey m. Robert de Poynings
> 9. Richard Poynings m. Eleanor Berkeley
> 10. Eleanor Poynings m. Henry Percy
> 11. Elizabeth Percy m. Henry Scrope
> 12. Ann Scrope m. John Vavasour
> 13. Leonard Vavasour m. Mary Hotham
>
> Regards,
> John
psbu...@hotmail.com
May 6, 2020, 6:08:53 PM5/6/20
to
Thanks,
Paul
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