info
Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss
"Iberian Route" Update? - DFA
270 views
Skip to first unread message
joe...@gmail.com
Feb 20, 2016, 7:52:21 AM2/20/16
to
In a series of posts from 1996-1999 there was discussion on the Iberian Route DFA.
At the root of that conjecture, was a conjecture that Artavazdes I of Media married a Commagene Princess, daughter of Antiochus Theos.
The following information is found at wikipedia which gives her name, Athenais, sourced to recently discovered coinage of Aravasdes. Is this new information that strengthens this conjecture?
"Athenais’ name is known from surviving numismatic evidence, as her royal title on coins is in Greek ΒΑΣΙΛΕΙΑ ΑΘΗΝΑΙΣ or of Queen Athenais. Surviving coinage reveals that Athenais married Artavasdes I as his Queen and probably married her sometime during his kingship of Media Atropatene. In the surviving coinage of Athenais and Artavasdes I, appears on one side a portrait of Artavasdes I wearing his crown showing his royal title in Greek, while on the other side a portrait is shown of Athenais with her royal title in Greek wearing a turreted tiara as a Diadem. These coins are dated from circa 30 BC from his kingship"
At the root of that conjecture, was a conjecture that Artavazdes I of Media married a Commagene Princess, daughter of Antiochus Theos.
The following information is found at wikipedia which gives her name, Athenais, sourced to recently discovered coinage of Aravasdes. Is this new information that strengthens this conjecture?
"Athenais’ name is known from surviving numismatic evidence, as her royal title on coins is in Greek ΒΑΣΙΛΕΙΑ ΑΘΗΝΑΙΣ or of Queen Athenais. Surviving coinage reveals that Athenais married Artavasdes I as his Queen and probably married her sometime during his kingship of Media Atropatene. In the surviving coinage of Athenais and Artavasdes I, appears on one side a portrait of Artavasdes I wearing his crown showing his royal title in Greek, while on the other side a portrait is shown of Athenais with her royal title in Greek wearing a turreted tiara as a Diadem. These coins are dated from circa 30 BC from his kingship"
shp...@comcast.net
Feb 20, 2016, 8:25:44 AM2/20/16
to
shp...@comcast.net
Feb 20, 2016, 9:18:19 AM2/20/16
to
joe...@gmail.com
Feb 20, 2016, 9:25:27 AM2/20/16
to
> Does the inscription provide a personal name, or do these words simply mean Queen of the Athenians (with the word Athenians in the dative plural ... meaning something like Queen for the Athenians)? Can you provide a source that discusses the coin?
Athenais is a known name at the time. I'm not sure of anyone being referred to as "Queen of the Athenians" as a title
Stewart Baldwin via
Feb 20, 2016, 2:50:19 PM2/20/16
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Actually, the term "Iberian Route" is not appropriate here. In 1996, I
posted a long item with the title 'Comments on "Iberian route" DFA line'
to this group, explaining in detail why an attempt at a DFA ("Descent
from Antiquity") through the kings of Iberian was completely
unacceptable. At the end of that message, I also posted some shorter
comments about the theory which might be called the "Armenian Route"
DFA, in which I strongly criticized the supposed links connecting the
Commagene dynasty to the Arsacid dynasty. As is common in such
discussions, the subject drifted away from the topic of the "Iberian
Route" to the more commonly discussed "Armenian Route" without changing
the subject line.
The suggestion that Artavazdes I of Media married a Commagene princess
is hardly the "root" of the conjectured link between the Commagene
dynasty and the Arsacids. At best it is the flimsiest of three very
flimsy links in the alleged chain. I just looked at the Wikipedia pages
on the subject, and they are awful, simply stating various weak
conjectures as if they were "facts" without the slightest hint of
uncertainty. When it comes to difficult-to-document royal lines,
Wikipedia is almost always a bad source to use.
Stewart Baldwin
posted a long item with the title 'Comments on "Iberian route" DFA line'
to this group, explaining in detail why an attempt at a DFA ("Descent
from Antiquity") through the kings of Iberian was completely
unacceptable. At the end of that message, I also posted some shorter
comments about the theory which might be called the "Armenian Route"
DFA, in which I strongly criticized the supposed links connecting the
Commagene dynasty to the Arsacid dynasty. As is common in such
discussions, the subject drifted away from the topic of the "Iberian
Route" to the more commonly discussed "Armenian Route" without changing
the subject line.
The suggestion that Artavazdes I of Media married a Commagene princess
is hardly the "root" of the conjectured link between the Commagene
dynasty and the Arsacids. At best it is the flimsiest of three very
flimsy links in the alleged chain. I just looked at the Wikipedia pages
on the subject, and they are awful, simply stating various weak
conjectures as if they were "facts" without the slightest hint of
uncertainty. When it comes to difficult-to-document royal lines,
Wikipedia is almost always a bad source to use.
Stewart Baldwin
joe...@gmail.com
Feb 20, 2016, 4:47:17 PM2/20/16
to
On Saturday, February 20, 2016 at 2:50:19 PM UTC-5, Stewart Baldwin via wrote:
> Actually, the term "Iberian Route" is not appropriate here. In 1996, I
> posted a long item with the title 'Comments on "Iberian route" DFA line'
> to this group, explaining in detail why an attempt at a DFA ("Descent
> from Antiquity") through the kings of Iberian was completely
> unacceptable. At the end of that message, I also posted some shorter
> comments about the theory which might be called the "Armenian Route"
> DFA, in which I strongly criticized the supposed links connecting the
> Commagene dynasty to the Arsacid dynasty. As is common in such
> discussions, the subject drifted away from the topic of the "Iberian
> Route" to the more commonly discussed "Armenian Route" without changing
> the subject line.
>
> The suggestion that Artavazdes I of Media married a Commagene princess
> is hardly the "root" of the conjectured link between the Commagene
> dynasty and the Arsacids. At best it is the flimsiest of three very
> flimsy links in the alleged chain. I just looked at the Wikipedia pages
> on the subject, and they are awful, simply stating various weak
> conjectures as if they were "facts" without the slightest hint of
> uncertainty. When it comes to difficult-to-document royal lines,
> Wikipedia is almost always a bad source to use.
>
Agree on all counts. I had just never seen such a suggestion before (the name Athenais) with a claimed contemporary source, and I was wondering if anyone was aware of a real publication or numismatic discovery. Hence making the flimsiest of the links not quite as flimsy. Also agree that any link back to this couple is sure to have additional errors, whether in the Parthian links, Amenian links, or the Mamikonian/Bagratid route people try to use to get back there..
> Actually, the term "Iberian Route" is not appropriate here. In 1996, I
> posted a long item with the title 'Comments on "Iberian route" DFA line'
> to this group, explaining in detail why an attempt at a DFA ("Descent
> from Antiquity") through the kings of Iberian was completely
> unacceptable. At the end of that message, I also posted some shorter
> comments about the theory which might be called the "Armenian Route"
> DFA, in which I strongly criticized the supposed links connecting the
> Commagene dynasty to the Arsacid dynasty. As is common in such
> discussions, the subject drifted away from the topic of the "Iberian
> Route" to the more commonly discussed "Armenian Route" without changing
> the subject line.
>
> The suggestion that Artavazdes I of Media married a Commagene princess
> is hardly the "root" of the conjectured link between the Commagene
> dynasty and the Arsacids. At best it is the flimsiest of three very
> flimsy links in the alleged chain. I just looked at the Wikipedia pages
> on the subject, and they are awful, simply stating various weak
> conjectures as if they were "facts" without the slightest hint of
> uncertainty. When it comes to difficult-to-document royal lines,
> Wikipedia is almost always a bad source to use.
>
Don Stone via
Feb 21, 2016, 6:29:25 PM2/21/16
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Much of the genealogical information in many of the Wikipedia
biographies of ancient monarchs of the eastern Mediterranean region is
the work primarily of one person, as can be seen from various Talk
pages. This person had some relevant modern works in front of him and
systematically went through these Wikipedia biographies, “updating”
their genealogical information. Unfortunately, he would take something
presented as a plausible reconstruction in a modern work (e.g., the
parentage or list of children of the monarch) and would enter it in the
Wikipedia biography as an unqualified fact.
For example, the cited article,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athenais_of_Media_Atropatene, gives a list
of children of Artavasdes I which includes as the third child a son,
Darius II, who is said to have married a Parthian Arsacid princess, who
bore him Artabanus III [II] and Vonones II of Parthia. Darius II as the
father of Artabanus II and Vonones II of Media Atropatene and Parthia is
a conjectural reconstruction made in 1991 by Christian Settipani in Nos
ancêtres de l’Antiquité.
In 1996 Stewart Baldwin criticized this proposal toward the end of a
long message to this forum, accessible at
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/1996-06/0834198614;
Stewart's critique is introduced by “What about other possibilities. The
other main one which has been suggested has been through the kings of
Commagene.” Stewart implied that he was not comfortable with
hypothesizing an otherwise unattested son of Artavasdes I, but said that
the crucial question (re linking to the Seleucids) was whether the
father (whatever his name) of Artabanus and Vonones was a son of
Artavasdes I and a Commagenian princess.
Christian wrote a response in French to Stewart's various points later
in 1996 as part of an addenda and corrigenda for his book, and Chris
Bennett posted a three-part English translation of this response in
1998:
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/1998-08/0903422305.
Christian defended in detail some of the proposals criticized by
Stewart, but later, as I recall, conceded that Artabanus and Vonones
might well be sons of Ariobarzanes II of Media Atropatene, a known son
of Artavasdes I.
Since that discussion several publications have dealt with the paternity
of Artabanus and Vonones. See, e.g., Olbrycht, Marek Jan (2014). "The
genealogy of Artabanos II (AD 8/9–39/40), King of Parthia," in
Miscellanea Anthropologica et Sociologica 15 (3): 92–97,
https://www.academia.edu/9955926/The_genealogy_of_Artabanos_II_AD_8_9_39_40_King_of_Parthia_in_Miscellanea_Anthropologica_et_Sociologica_vol._15_3_pp._92-97.
Olbrycht cites both older and more recent studies, and among these
studies there are a number of different hypotheses about the father of
Artabanus and Vonones.
One hypothesis is that Artabanus and Vonones were the sons of a
Hyrcanian (Scythian), perhaps an underking, based on Tacitus's comment,
Annals 2.3, that Artabanus “had grown to manhood among the Dahae” (a
Scythian tribe).
Another hypothesis is that Artabanus and Vonones belonged to the royal
family of Media Atropatene, since both of them were kings of Media
Atropatene before becoming kings of Parthia. (Schottky's 1991 article
proposes that they were children of a Darius who was a son of Darius I,
the Darius mentioned by Appian as having fought Pompey in 65 or 64 BC.
Schottky's 1998 colloquium contribution further explores connections
between Parthia, Media Atropatene and Hyrkania.)
A third hypothesis, sometimes combined with the first one, is that
Artabanus and Vonones, as kings of Parthia, must have been Arsacid in
the male line (in addition to the female line). One supporter of the
combination of the first and third hypotheses is Olbrycht; he believes
that Artabanus sprang from an Arsacid branch (descended from Mithradates
II) which held power in Hyrcania, east of the Caspian Sea. He may be
correct, though perhaps not because of the reasoning in his article,
much of which I find unconvincing.
Thus, the Wikipedia article does not mention the significant number of
alternate proposals for the paternity of Artabanus and Vonones but
instead leads the reader to believe that there is no reason to doubt
that they are sons of Darius II, son of Artavasdes I.
Further, I have some questions about the purported numismatic
justification for Athenais as the wife of Artavasdes I. Neither of the
two numismatic references, 5 and 6, mentions the name Athenais (and they
do not use the title given in the Wikipedia article, “Coinage of
Artvasdes I and Athenais”).
Also, the first source listed, the Athenais article at Ancient Library,
is no longer a functioning web page. However, this “article” is the
entry Athenais 2 from William Smith, Dictionary of Greek and Roman
Biography and Mythology, which can be found at
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0104%3Aentry%3Dathenais-bio-2.
Could the Wikipedia contributor have misread the last sentence in this
entry, substituting Artavasdes I for Ariobarzanes I and thus ending up
with “It appears from an inscription (Eckhel, iii. p. 199), that the
wife of Artavasdes I. was also called Athenais”?
-- Don Stone
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
biographies of ancient monarchs of the eastern Mediterranean region is
the work primarily of one person, as can be seen from various Talk
pages. This person had some relevant modern works in front of him and
systematically went through these Wikipedia biographies, “updating”
their genealogical information. Unfortunately, he would take something
presented as a plausible reconstruction in a modern work (e.g., the
parentage or list of children of the monarch) and would enter it in the
Wikipedia biography as an unqualified fact.
For example, the cited article,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athenais_of_Media_Atropatene, gives a list
of children of Artavasdes I which includes as the third child a son,
Darius II, who is said to have married a Parthian Arsacid princess, who
bore him Artabanus III [II] and Vonones II of Parthia. Darius II as the
father of Artabanus II and Vonones II of Media Atropatene and Parthia is
a conjectural reconstruction made in 1991 by Christian Settipani in Nos
ancêtres de l’Antiquité.
In 1996 Stewart Baldwin criticized this proposal toward the end of a
long message to this forum, accessible at
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/1996-06/0834198614;
Stewart's critique is introduced by “What about other possibilities. The
other main one which has been suggested has been through the kings of
Commagene.” Stewart implied that he was not comfortable with
hypothesizing an otherwise unattested son of Artavasdes I, but said that
the crucial question (re linking to the Seleucids) was whether the
father (whatever his name) of Artabanus and Vonones was a son of
Artavasdes I and a Commagenian princess.
Christian wrote a response in French to Stewart's various points later
in 1996 as part of an addenda and corrigenda for his book, and Chris
Bennett posted a three-part English translation of this response in
1998:
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/1998-08/0903422305.
Christian defended in detail some of the proposals criticized by
Stewart, but later, as I recall, conceded that Artabanus and Vonones
might well be sons of Ariobarzanes II of Media Atropatene, a known son
of Artavasdes I.
Since that discussion several publications have dealt with the paternity
of Artabanus and Vonones. See, e.g., Olbrycht, Marek Jan (2014). "The
genealogy of Artabanos II (AD 8/9–39/40), King of Parthia," in
Miscellanea Anthropologica et Sociologica 15 (3): 92–97,
https://www.academia.edu/9955926/The_genealogy_of_Artabanos_II_AD_8_9_39_40_King_of_Parthia_in_Miscellanea_Anthropologica_et_Sociologica_vol._15_3_pp._92-97.
Olbrycht cites both older and more recent studies, and among these
studies there are a number of different hypotheses about the father of
Artabanus and Vonones.
One hypothesis is that Artabanus and Vonones were the sons of a
Hyrcanian (Scythian), perhaps an underking, based on Tacitus's comment,
Annals 2.3, that Artabanus “had grown to manhood among the Dahae” (a
Scythian tribe).
Another hypothesis is that Artabanus and Vonones belonged to the royal
family of Media Atropatene, since both of them were kings of Media
Atropatene before becoming kings of Parthia. (Schottky's 1991 article
proposes that they were children of a Darius who was a son of Darius I,
the Darius mentioned by Appian as having fought Pompey in 65 or 64 BC.
Schottky's 1998 colloquium contribution further explores connections
between Parthia, Media Atropatene and Hyrkania.)
A third hypothesis, sometimes combined with the first one, is that
Artabanus and Vonones, as kings of Parthia, must have been Arsacid in
the male line (in addition to the female line). One supporter of the
combination of the first and third hypotheses is Olbrycht; he believes
that Artabanus sprang from an Arsacid branch (descended from Mithradates
II) which held power in Hyrcania, east of the Caspian Sea. He may be
correct, though perhaps not because of the reasoning in his article,
much of which I find unconvincing.
Thus, the Wikipedia article does not mention the significant number of
alternate proposals for the paternity of Artabanus and Vonones but
instead leads the reader to believe that there is no reason to doubt
that they are sons of Darius II, son of Artavasdes I.
Further, I have some questions about the purported numismatic
justification for Athenais as the wife of Artavasdes I. Neither of the
two numismatic references, 5 and 6, mentions the name Athenais (and they
do not use the title given in the Wikipedia article, “Coinage of
Artvasdes I and Athenais”).
Also, the first source listed, the Athenais article at Ancient Library,
is no longer a functioning web page. However, this “article” is the
entry Athenais 2 from William Smith, Dictionary of Greek and Roman
Biography and Mythology, which can be found at
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0104%3Aentry%3Dathenais-bio-2.
Could the Wikipedia contributor have misread the last sentence in this
entry, substituting Artavasdes I for Ariobarzanes I and thus ending up
with “It appears from an inscription (Eckhel, iii. p. 199), that the
wife of Artavasdes I. was also called Athenais”?
-- Don Stone
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
D. Spencer Hines
Feb 22, 2016, 12:23:22 AM2/22/16
to
This is a Good Example of why these Genealogies of Ancient Monarchs are
often, not always, a Fool's Errand.
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"Man is condemned to be free; because once thrown into the world, he is
responsible for everything he does. Freedom is what you do with what's been
done to you. If you are lonely when you're alone, you are in bad company.
Existence precedes and rules essence. There is only one day left, always
starting over: it is given to us at dawn and taken away from us at dusk.
Hell is other people."
Jean Paul Sartre [1905-1980] Nobel Prize in Literature 1964 [Refused]
"Don Stone via" wrote in message
news:mailman.239.14560974...@rootsweb.com...
genealogy of Artabanos II (AD 8/9-39/40), King of Parthia," in
Miscellanea Anthropologica et Sociologica 15 (3): 92-97,
> title on coins is in Greek ???????? ??????? or of Queen Athenais.
often, not always, a Fool's Errand.
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"Man is condemned to be free; because once thrown into the world, he is
responsible for everything he does. Freedom is what you do with what's been
done to you. If you are lonely when you're alone, you are in bad company.
Existence precedes and rules essence. There is only one day left, always
starting over: it is given to us at dawn and taken away from us at dusk.
Hell is other people."
Jean Paul Sartre [1905-1980] Nobel Prize in Literature 1964 [Refused]
"Don Stone via" wrote in message
news:mailman.239.14560974...@rootsweb.com...
Miscellanea Anthropologica et Sociologica 15 (3): 92-97,
0 new messages