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C.P. Addition: Death date of Joan de Creye, widow of Richard de Dover and Sir Gilbert Pecche
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celticp...@gmail.com
Sep 10, 2018, 5:38:41 PM9/10/18
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Dear Newsgroup ~
Complete Peerage 10 (1945): 335–336 (sub Pecche) includes a good account of Sir Gilbert Pecche, of Great Thurlow, Suffolk (died 1291), which individual is the father of Sir Gilbert Pecche, Lord Pecche (died 1322). Regarding the elder Gilbert's second marriage, the following information is provided:
"He married, 2ndly, Joan, daughter of Simon de Creye, and widow of Richard de Dover, lord of Chilham, Kent. He [Gilbert] died 25 May 1291. His widow was living in 1302." END OF QUOTE.
On page 336, footnote c, the editor of Complete Peerage cites the following two sources as documentation for this marriage:
"Liber ... de Bernewell, p. 50; Rot. Hund., vol. i, p. 232."
The full citation for the first reference is Clark, Liber Memorandorum Ecclesie de Bernewelle (1907): 50. This source confirms that Gilbert's 2nd wife was Joan, daughter of Simon de Creye. Below is a transcript of the Barnwell document:
“Predictus dominus Gilbertus Pecche duas habuit vxores: vnam que uocabatur Matildis de Hastinges, genere quidem claram sed moribus multo clariorem, et habuerunt filios et filias. Que London defuncta est. Sepultum est corpus eius in ecclesia canonicorum beate marie ultra aquam … Post hec accepit dictus Gilbertus aliam uxorem filiam domini Symonis de Creye; que uocabatur Johanna … de hac quidem genuit filios et filias.”). END OF QUOTE.
The above may be viewed at the following weblink:
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.32044024314577;view=1up;seq=118
The full citation for the second source cited by Complete Peerage is Rotuli Hundredorum (Rec. Commission) 1 (1812): 232. It confirms that Joan de Creye was the widow of Richard de Dover as stated by Complete Peerage. However, it makes no mention of Richard de Dover having been lord of Chilham, Kent. Below is an English translation of the Latin text:
"The jurors state that Sir Gilbert Peche holds the manor of Lesnes, Kent in the name of Joan his wife by reason of the dower which she holds by Richard de Dover her former husband." END OF QUOTE.
The above may be viewed at the following weblink:
https://books.google.com/books?id=hNEsAQAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover
As stated by Complete Peerage, Gilbert Pecche died 25 May 1291.
His widow, Joan, was granted dower 4 August 1291. Reference: Cal. of Close Rolls, 1288–1296 (1904): 177.
My research indicates that in 1291, his widow, Joan, complained that the escheator seised Pledgchedon (in Henham), Essex and Great Thurlow, Suffolk for the crown, though she and her late husband were joint-feoffees thereof.
In Hilary term 1292 Joan sued Hamon Pecche and Robert Reda in the Court of Common Pleas regarding one messuage and three acres of land in Colchester, Essex, which she claimed as her right.
Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/92, image 25f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E1/CP40no92/aCP40no92fronts/IMG_0025.htm).
Complete Peerage states that Joan de Creye was living in 1302. The source cited for this statement is:
"Abbrev. Placit., p. 246"
The full citation for this source is Placitorum in Domo Capitulari Westmonasteriensi Asservatorum Abbrevatio (1811): 246. An English translation of the Latin text reads as follows:
Date: Trinity term [27 June-18 July] 30 Edward I [1302]. Charter of Joan who was the wife of Gilbert de Pecche granting all her right in the manor of Carlby by Witham, Lincolnshire and the advowson of half of the church to Walter de Langton, Bishop of Coventry and Lichfield and Thomas de Eadburye.
The above may be viewed at the following weblink:
https://books.google.com/books?id=epk0AQAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover
The above charter was followed by a fine recorded 3 November 1302, which fine is abstracted on Chris Phillips' medieval genealogy website. The fine reads as follows:
Source: http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/abstracts/CP_25_1_134_68.shtml#35
National Archives, CP 25/1/134/68, number 35.
Link: Image of document at AALT
County: Lincolnshire.
Place: York.
Date: The day after All Souls, 30 Edward I [3 November 1302].
Parties: Walter de Langeton', bishop of Coventry and Lichfield, and Master Thomas de Eadberburi, querents, and Joan, who was the wife of Gilbert Pecche, and Gilbert, son of Gilbert Pecche, deforciants.
Property: The manor of Carlby by Wythham [Witham] and the advowson of a moiety of the church of Carlby.
Action: Plea of covenant.
Agreement: Joan and Gilbert have acknowledged the the manor and the advowson of the moiety to be the right of Thomas, and have remised and quitclaimed them from themselves and the heirs of Gilbert to the bishop and Thomas and the heirs of Thomas for ever.
Warranty: Warranty.
For this: The bishop and Thomas have given them 100 marks of silver.
Joan de Creye, widow of Richard de Dover and Gilbert Pecche, Knt., died soon after the date of the above fine. In Easter term 1303 William de Goldington sued Gilbert Pecche and Simon his brother, executors of the will of Joan, widow of Gilbert Pecche, in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt of £20. Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/147, image 175 (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT6/E1/CP40no147/IMG_0175.htm).
In summary, contemporary records confirm the parentage and previous marriage of Joan de Creye as given by Complete Peerage. Following the death of Sir Gilbert Pecche in 1291, Joan appears regularly in the records through 3 November 1302. She died testate before Easter term [24 April-20 May] 1303, when her executors were sued for a debt.
For interest's sake, the following is a list of the 17th Century New World immigrants that descend from Sir Gilbert Pecche (died 1291) and his 2nd wife, Joan de Creye:
Judith Knapp, Jane, John, Mary, Thomas & William Lawrence.
The following is a list of the 17th Century New World immigrants that descend from Sir Gilbert Pecche (died 1291) and his 1st wife, Maud de Hastings:
William Bladen, Francis Dade, Gabriel, Roger & Sarah Ludlow, John Oxenbridge.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Complete Peerage 10 (1945): 335–336 (sub Pecche) includes a good account of Sir Gilbert Pecche, of Great Thurlow, Suffolk (died 1291), which individual is the father of Sir Gilbert Pecche, Lord Pecche (died 1322). Regarding the elder Gilbert's second marriage, the following information is provided:
"He married, 2ndly, Joan, daughter of Simon de Creye, and widow of Richard de Dover, lord of Chilham, Kent. He [Gilbert] died 25 May 1291. His widow was living in 1302." END OF QUOTE.
On page 336, footnote c, the editor of Complete Peerage cites the following two sources as documentation for this marriage:
"Liber ... de Bernewell, p. 50; Rot. Hund., vol. i, p. 232."
The full citation for the first reference is Clark, Liber Memorandorum Ecclesie de Bernewelle (1907): 50. This source confirms that Gilbert's 2nd wife was Joan, daughter of Simon de Creye. Below is a transcript of the Barnwell document:
“Predictus dominus Gilbertus Pecche duas habuit vxores: vnam que uocabatur Matildis de Hastinges, genere quidem claram sed moribus multo clariorem, et habuerunt filios et filias. Que London defuncta est. Sepultum est corpus eius in ecclesia canonicorum beate marie ultra aquam … Post hec accepit dictus Gilbertus aliam uxorem filiam domini Symonis de Creye; que uocabatur Johanna … de hac quidem genuit filios et filias.”). END OF QUOTE.
The above may be viewed at the following weblink:
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.32044024314577;view=1up;seq=118
The full citation for the second source cited by Complete Peerage is Rotuli Hundredorum (Rec. Commission) 1 (1812): 232. It confirms that Joan de Creye was the widow of Richard de Dover as stated by Complete Peerage. However, it makes no mention of Richard de Dover having been lord of Chilham, Kent. Below is an English translation of the Latin text:
"The jurors state that Sir Gilbert Peche holds the manor of Lesnes, Kent in the name of Joan his wife by reason of the dower which she holds by Richard de Dover her former husband." END OF QUOTE.
The above may be viewed at the following weblink:
https://books.google.com/books?id=hNEsAQAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover
As stated by Complete Peerage, Gilbert Pecche died 25 May 1291.
His widow, Joan, was granted dower 4 August 1291. Reference: Cal. of Close Rolls, 1288–1296 (1904): 177.
My research indicates that in 1291, his widow, Joan, complained that the escheator seised Pledgchedon (in Henham), Essex and Great Thurlow, Suffolk for the crown, though she and her late husband were joint-feoffees thereof.
In Hilary term 1292 Joan sued Hamon Pecche and Robert Reda in the Court of Common Pleas regarding one messuage and three acres of land in Colchester, Essex, which she claimed as her right.
Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/92, image 25f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E1/CP40no92/aCP40no92fronts/IMG_0025.htm).
Complete Peerage states that Joan de Creye was living in 1302. The source cited for this statement is:
"Abbrev. Placit., p. 246"
The full citation for this source is Placitorum in Domo Capitulari Westmonasteriensi Asservatorum Abbrevatio (1811): 246. An English translation of the Latin text reads as follows:
Date: Trinity term [27 June-18 July] 30 Edward I [1302]. Charter of Joan who was the wife of Gilbert de Pecche granting all her right in the manor of Carlby by Witham, Lincolnshire and the advowson of half of the church to Walter de Langton, Bishop of Coventry and Lichfield and Thomas de Eadburye.
The above may be viewed at the following weblink:
https://books.google.com/books?id=epk0AQAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover
The above charter was followed by a fine recorded 3 November 1302, which fine is abstracted on Chris Phillips' medieval genealogy website. The fine reads as follows:
Source: http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/abstracts/CP_25_1_134_68.shtml#35
National Archives, CP 25/1/134/68, number 35.
Link: Image of document at AALT
County: Lincolnshire.
Place: York.
Date: The day after All Souls, 30 Edward I [3 November 1302].
Parties: Walter de Langeton', bishop of Coventry and Lichfield, and Master Thomas de Eadberburi, querents, and Joan, who was the wife of Gilbert Pecche, and Gilbert, son of Gilbert Pecche, deforciants.
Property: The manor of Carlby by Wythham [Witham] and the advowson of a moiety of the church of Carlby.
Action: Plea of covenant.
Agreement: Joan and Gilbert have acknowledged the the manor and the advowson of the moiety to be the right of Thomas, and have remised and quitclaimed them from themselves and the heirs of Gilbert to the bishop and Thomas and the heirs of Thomas for ever.
Warranty: Warranty.
For this: The bishop and Thomas have given them 100 marks of silver.
Joan de Creye, widow of Richard de Dover and Gilbert Pecche, Knt., died soon after the date of the above fine. In Easter term 1303 William de Goldington sued Gilbert Pecche and Simon his brother, executors of the will of Joan, widow of Gilbert Pecche, in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt of £20. Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/147, image 175 (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT6/E1/CP40no147/IMG_0175.htm).
In summary, contemporary records confirm the parentage and previous marriage of Joan de Creye as given by Complete Peerage. Following the death of Sir Gilbert Pecche in 1291, Joan appears regularly in the records through 3 November 1302. She died testate before Easter term [24 April-20 May] 1303, when her executors were sued for a debt.
For interest's sake, the following is a list of the 17th Century New World immigrants that descend from Sir Gilbert Pecche (died 1291) and his 2nd wife, Joan de Creye:
Judith Knapp, Jane, John, Mary, Thomas & William Lawrence.
The following is a list of the 17th Century New World immigrants that descend from Sir Gilbert Pecche (died 1291) and his 1st wife, Maud de Hastings:
William Bladen, Francis Dade, Gabriel, Roger & Sarah Ludlow, John Oxenbridge.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
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