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PA3 Additions: Anne Dennys Ragland Carne
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Brad Verity
May 6, 2012, 6:38:32 PM5/6/12
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On p. 52 of the 3rd Edition (2004) of Plantagenet Ancestry (sub
Aubrey), Anne Dennis is shown as m. 1) Sir John Raglan, and having 2
sons (Sir John & Sir Thomas) and 3 daughters (Alice, Margred, and
Catrin). The daughter Alice Raglan (who continues the line of descent
down to Barbara Aubrey, wife of John Bevan) is shown to have had two
husbands, William Mathew of Castell y Mynach, then William Herbert of
Cogan Pill. The daughter Margred Raglan is assigned three husbands
(John Carne, John Shepard & William Basset), and daughter Catrin
Ragland is not assigned any husband. Anne Dennis is shown to have m.
2) Sir Edward Carne of Ewenny, and had a furher son Thomas Carne.
Meanwhile, Sir John Raglan is said to have had a previous wife,
Eleanor, daughter of Hugh Courtenay, Knight, and had by her two
daughters (Mary and Ann). The daughter Mary Raglan is assigned a
husband, John Fleming. Nowhere is it noted that the above assignment
of children and spouses to Sir John Ragland is not certain & conflicts
in various sources. Also, it appears that Sir Edward Carne of Ewenny
& Anne Dennys had additional children than just one son, Thomas.
In the 1978 book 'The Raglands: A History of a British-American
Family', Volume I,
http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/2768927/the-raglands-volume-1-pdf-april-25-2011-7-22-pm-3-3-meg?dn=y
author Charles J. Ragland Jr., presents a different version of Sir
John Ragland's wives and children: "In 1519 he married Eleanor
Courtenay in London. She was the daughter of Sir Hugh Courtenay, knt.,
of co. Devon, and a distant cousin of King Henry VIII. Returning to
Glamorgan in 1521, Sir John purchased the manor of Rawley in Llantwit
par., co. Glamorgan, and there established his seat. On the death of
his father in 1527 he acquired Carnllwyd. He appears to have divided
his time between Rawley, Carnllwyd, and London. Sometime after 1530 he
married for a second time one Anne Dennis (Eleanor appears to have
died sometime between 1527 and 1530). She was the daughter of Sir
William Dennis of Byrham, co. Gloucesterand granddaugher of Maurice,
Lord Berkeley....Sir John had seven children, two sons by his first
wife, and five daughters by his second marriage.” Ragland Jr. gives
Sir John's children as:
1) Sir Thomas Ragland m. Anne, widow of Christopher Conysby & dau of
Sir Roger Woodhouse of county Norfolk. This was Christopher Coningsby
of Wallington Hall (d. 1547) & Sir Roger Wodehouse of Kimberley (d.
1560). Sir Thomas has a biography in HOP (not cited as a source in
PA3), which does not state which of Sir John Ragland's wives was his
mother:
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/ragland-sir-thomas
2) Sir John Ragland - became a Knight of Rhodes and died unmarried. I
haven't yet come upon anything to confirm Ragland Jr's statement.
3) Alice Ragland m. 1) William Mathew of Castell y Mynach; m. 2) Sir
George Herbert [sic- should be William Herbert; Sir George was his
father] of Cogan Pill. Alice and her marriages are confirmed by the
bio of her 2nd husband in HOP (not cited as a source by PA3), which
doesn't say which of Sir John Ragland's wives was Alice's mother:
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/herbert-william-ii-1530-76
4) Margaret Ragland m. 1) John Carne of Nash, Glamorganshire; m. 2)
John Shepard of Alston, Wiltshire; m. 3) Sir Richard Basset of
Beaupre. These husbands match up to those given for Margaret in PA3,
except for the final one: PA3 has William Bassett; Ragland Jr has Sir
Richard Bassett. The bio of William Bassett of Beaupre in HOP doesn't
shed any further light:
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/bassett-william-i-1586
5) Mary Ragland m. John Fleming of Flimston co. York [sic- Flimstone
was in Glamorganshire, not Yorkshire]. The Flemings were near
neighbours of the Raglands, but beyond that fact, I've beeb unable to
confirm this marriage.
6) Barbara Ragland m. Thomas Turberville of Llantwit Major,
Glamorganshire. Like the Flemings, the Turbervilles of Llantwit Major
were close neighbours of the Raglands, but also, like the Flemings,
I've not yet been able to confirm this marriage. It's also possible
that Barbara, wife of Thomas Turberville, was a granddaughter (not
daughter) of Sir John Ragland, being the daughter of Margaret Ragland
& her 1st husband John Carne of Nash (see below).
7) Katherine Ragland m. Richard Buckler of Causeway, co. Dorset,
nephew & heir of Sir Walter Buckler. PA3 gives no marriage for Catrin
Ragland, but the following National Archives document & Buckler
pedigree from the 1565 Visitation of Dorset confirm that Ragland Jr
was correct:
http://archive.org/stream/visitationofdors00harvuoft#page/8/mode/2up
1558-1579 “Buckler v Buckler. Plaintiffs: Andrew Buckler. Defendants:
Richard Buckler, Katherine Buckler his wife and another. Subject:
manor of Warnald alias Cawseway in the parish of Radipole,
Dorset.” [The National Archives/The Catalogue/C3/8/114]
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATLN=6&CATID=4656748&j=1
Sir Walter Buckler was the second husband of Katherine Dennys (d.
1582), widow of Sir Edmund Tame of Fairford (d. 1544), and the sister
of Anne Dennys, wife of Sir John Ragland. Neither of the sources
above state which of the wives of Sir John Ragland was the mother of
Katherine. Though there's always a possibility Anne Dennys helped to
arrange a stepdaughter in marriage, the most likely case, given that
Richard Buckler was made the heir of his uncle Sir Walter, was that
Richard's wife Katherine Ragland was indeed the daughter of Anne
Dennys. Ragland Jr states that Richard Buckler had children by
Katherine. The 1565 Visitation pedigree does not assign any children
to the couple, and the Buckler pedigree in the 1623 Visitation of
Dorset merely follows the line of Richard's elder brother Alexander
Buckler:
http://archive.org/stream/visitationofcound00stge#page/n43/mode/2up
Ragland Jr doesn't state his sources for the daughters & wives of Sir
John Ragland. Another source that discusses them is "Some Account of
the Parish of Llancarvan, Glamorganshire" in 'Archaeologia
Cambrensis'. In Third Series, No. XLV (January 1866), the series
discusses the 'Manor of Carnllwyd' and the 'Pedigree of Raglan'. On p.
5:
http://archive.org/stream/archaeologiacam14moorgoog#page/n15/mode/2up
Sir John Ragland m. "1st, Elinor or Elizabeth, daughter of Sir Hugh
Courtenay", by whom he had
1) Thomas; 2) Sir John, Knight of Rhodes
Sir John Ragland m. "2nd, Mary or Ann, daughter of Sir William
Dennis", by whom he had
3) Alice, m. "1st, William Mathew of Castell-y-Mynach; 2nd, William
Herbert of Cogan-Pill, son of Sir George Herbert"
4) Margaret, m. "1st, John Carne of Nash; 2nd, John Sheppard of
Allston, Wilts; and 3rd, Richard Basset of Beaupre"
5) Mary "whose parentage is more doubtful, married John Fleming of
Flimston; 2nd, Thomas Havard"
6) Ann, "married William Lewis of St. Pierre"
Moving on to the second marriage of Anne Dennys, with Sir Edward Carne
(1495-1561) of Ewenny, Glamorganshire, PA3, as well as the bio of Sir
Edward Carne in ODNB (not cited as a source by PA3), give the couple
one son Thomas. But the bio of Sir Edward Carne in HOP (also not
cited as a source by PA3), says they had one son & four daughters.
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/carne-sir-edward-149596-1561
Three of their daughters are given in 'The Descent of Frances Carne,
Wife of Edward Turberville of Sutton' in the 1901 book 'Ewenny Priory:
Monastery and Fortress' (p. 85):
http://archive.org/stream/ewennypriorymona00turbuoft#page/84/mode/2up
The chart lists the children of Sir Edward Carne and Anne Denis as:
1) Thomas Carne m. Catherine Wyndham. This son is confirmed by his
own bio in HOP:
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/carne-thomas-1538-1603
2) Cecil Carne m. "Sir John Wogan of Wiston, Pembroke" Her husband
(who was not actually a knight) is confirmed by his bio in HOP:
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/wogan-john-1538-80
3) Barbara Carne m. 1) "Sir R. Long of Wraxal"; m. 2) "Bowyer, gent.
usher to Queen Elizabeth" Each of Barbara Carne's husbands has a bio
in HOP:
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/long-robert-151516-81
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/bowyer-simon-1550-1606
[The 4th child is not given in the chart]
5) Mary Carne m. "Paulet"
I've not yet been able to confirm this marriage.
The fourth child (a daughter) left off of the pedigree chart above
appears to have been Jane Carne, the wife of Charles Brydges of Wilton
Castle (d. 1619), a younger son of the 1st Lord Chandos. They were
ancestors of the Duke of Chandos.
So just how many children did Anne Dennys have? Another source PA3
cites for her is Smyth's 'Lives of the Berkeleys', which can be found
online here:
http://books.google.ca/books?id=uiUcAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA185&dq=Margaret+Ragland+married+John+Carne&hl=en&sa=X&ei=YMKmT_-dLMeUiAK4lf3NAg&ved=0CF0Q6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=Margaret%20Ragland%20married%20John%20Carne&f=false
Smyth, in a somewhat garbled account assigns Anne the following
children by Sir John Ragland:
1) "Sr Thomas Ragland, father of Thomas and others"
2) "And Margaret married to Mr Carne. Which Margaret had iffue Cicely
married to Mr Kemys: Barbara marryed to Mr Turvill: And one other
married to Mr Baffet; and one other married to Mr Griffiths; And one
other marryed alfo to ----." [Note: I'm assuming Smyth meant for
Barbara Turvill, Mrs Baffet, Mrs Grifiths, and the other dau, to have
been daus of Margaret Ragland Carne, but the wording is vague and he
may have meant that they were the daughters of Anne Dennys Ragland.
This may, however, explain Ragland Jr assigning a daughter Barbara,
wife of Thomas Turberville, to Sir John Ragland - see above]
By Sir Edward Carne, Smyth says Anne Dennys had the following:
3) "Thomas Carne; who married the daughter and coheire of St Walter
Hungerford, who had iffue"
4) And one other married to John Huntley Egqr fon of George, fon of
John (called with the great legge) who had iffue George Huntley of
Frocefter knight...."
Per the Huntley pedigree in the 1623 Visitation of Gloucestershire,
http://archive.org/stream/visitationofcoun00inchit#page/92/mode/2up
John Huntley, son & heir of George Huntley of Frocester & Catherine
Walshe, married "Jane d. to Sr Edward Karne of Glamorgansh. Knt.", and
were parents of "George Huntley of Frowster Knight". George Huntley
of Frocester (c.1512-1580) has a bio in HOP, which states he left his
goods to his widow, then to George, the son of his eldest son John.
It's possible that Jane Carne was married 1st to John Huntley (d.
before 1580), heir of Frocester, then 2nd to Charles Brydges of Wilton
(d. 1619).
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/huntley-george-1512-80
Exactly how many children did Anne Dennys have? At least four by her
second husband can be confirmed: 1) Thomas Carne of Ewenny (c.
1538-1603); 2) Cecily Carne m. John Wogan of Wiston (1538-1580); 3)
Barbara Carne m. 1st, Sir Robert Long of Draycot Cerne (1515-1581),
and 2nd, Simon Bowyer of London (c.1550-1606); 4) Jane Carne m. 1st,
John Huntley, heir of Frocester (d. bef. 1580), and 2nd, Charles
Brydges of Wilton (d. 1619).
In addition, two other children are very likely: 5) Mary Carne, m. to
---- Paulet (or possibly one or other of the two husbands above
assigned to Jane Carne?); 6) Katherine Ragland m. Richard Buckler of
Causeway House (for the reasons given above).
In the "probable" category, I'll add, 7) Margaret Ragland m. to John
Carne, &c., as it seems unlikely Smyth would follow her issue if she
wasn't a Berkeley descendant. I'm inclined to add Alice Ragland (m.
1st to William Mathew of Castell y Mynach &2nd to William Herbert of
Cogan Pill) as a daughter of Anne Dennys because of her first name
(perhaps she was named for Anne's mother Anne Berkeley Dennys), but if
so, it's odd that Smyth makes no mention of her. Even though Smyth
states Anne had a son Thomas with Sir John Ragland, I'm hesitant to
say that his eldest son & heir Sir Thomas Ragland of Carnllwyd (d.
1591) was from his second wife Anne Dennys. That would mean she gave
both of her sons the first name Thomas. Perhaps the younger son, John
Ragland, said to have been a Knight of Rhodes, was in reality the one
Smyth (in his garbled account) was referring to?
George Ragland Jr states that Sir John Ragland married his first wife
in 1519, and that she died between 1527 and 1530, when he married his
second wife Anne Dennys. He doesn't provide a source for these any of
these dates, unfortunately. In Magna Carta Ancestry, p. 29 (sub
Aubrey), Douglas Richardson provides a date of death for Sir John
Ragland of 1531 or 1532:
http://books.google.ca/books?id=wHZcIRMhSEMC&pg=PA29&dq=Elizabeth+Courtenay+Ragland&hl=en&sa=X&ei=IJamT5z0K6m0iQLY9ozKAg&ved=0CEEQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Elizabeth%20Courtenay%20Ragland&f=false
The date of death Douglas provides for Sir John Ragland is supported
by the following National Archives document:
1533-1538 “John Seynt John, knight, guardian to Thomas, son of John
Ragland, knight, deceased. v. Thomas (ap) David, steward to the said
Sir John Ragland.: Embezzlement of dues and detention of deeds
belonging to the manor of Molton, held of complainant by the said Sir
John Ragland.: Glamorgan.” [National Archives/The Catalogue/C
1/889/16-18]
The span 1530-1532/3, or even 1527-1532/3, does not provide a lot of
time for Anne Dennys to have had the 5 children with Sir John Ragland
assigned to her in PA3 & Magna Carta Ancestry. It seems some more
research is needed before it can be definitively shown that Alice
Ragland, wife of William Mathew, was the daughter of Anne Dennys.
Cheers, -----Brad
Aubrey), Anne Dennis is shown as m. 1) Sir John Raglan, and having 2
sons (Sir John & Sir Thomas) and 3 daughters (Alice, Margred, and
Catrin). The daughter Alice Raglan (who continues the line of descent
down to Barbara Aubrey, wife of John Bevan) is shown to have had two
husbands, William Mathew of Castell y Mynach, then William Herbert of
Cogan Pill. The daughter Margred Raglan is assigned three husbands
(John Carne, John Shepard & William Basset), and daughter Catrin
Ragland is not assigned any husband. Anne Dennis is shown to have m.
2) Sir Edward Carne of Ewenny, and had a furher son Thomas Carne.
Meanwhile, Sir John Raglan is said to have had a previous wife,
Eleanor, daughter of Hugh Courtenay, Knight, and had by her two
daughters (Mary and Ann). The daughter Mary Raglan is assigned a
husband, John Fleming. Nowhere is it noted that the above assignment
of children and spouses to Sir John Ragland is not certain & conflicts
in various sources. Also, it appears that Sir Edward Carne of Ewenny
& Anne Dennys had additional children than just one son, Thomas.
In the 1978 book 'The Raglands: A History of a British-American
Family', Volume I,
http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/2768927/the-raglands-volume-1-pdf-april-25-2011-7-22-pm-3-3-meg?dn=y
author Charles J. Ragland Jr., presents a different version of Sir
John Ragland's wives and children: "In 1519 he married Eleanor
Courtenay in London. She was the daughter of Sir Hugh Courtenay, knt.,
of co. Devon, and a distant cousin of King Henry VIII. Returning to
Glamorgan in 1521, Sir John purchased the manor of Rawley in Llantwit
par., co. Glamorgan, and there established his seat. On the death of
his father in 1527 he acquired Carnllwyd. He appears to have divided
his time between Rawley, Carnllwyd, and London. Sometime after 1530 he
married for a second time one Anne Dennis (Eleanor appears to have
died sometime between 1527 and 1530). She was the daughter of Sir
William Dennis of Byrham, co. Gloucesterand granddaugher of Maurice,
Lord Berkeley....Sir John had seven children, two sons by his first
wife, and five daughters by his second marriage.” Ragland Jr. gives
Sir John's children as:
1) Sir Thomas Ragland m. Anne, widow of Christopher Conysby & dau of
Sir Roger Woodhouse of county Norfolk. This was Christopher Coningsby
of Wallington Hall (d. 1547) & Sir Roger Wodehouse of Kimberley (d.
1560). Sir Thomas has a biography in HOP (not cited as a source in
PA3), which does not state which of Sir John Ragland's wives was his
mother:
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/ragland-sir-thomas
2) Sir John Ragland - became a Knight of Rhodes and died unmarried. I
haven't yet come upon anything to confirm Ragland Jr's statement.
3) Alice Ragland m. 1) William Mathew of Castell y Mynach; m. 2) Sir
George Herbert [sic- should be William Herbert; Sir George was his
father] of Cogan Pill. Alice and her marriages are confirmed by the
bio of her 2nd husband in HOP (not cited as a source by PA3), which
doesn't say which of Sir John Ragland's wives was Alice's mother:
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/herbert-william-ii-1530-76
4) Margaret Ragland m. 1) John Carne of Nash, Glamorganshire; m. 2)
John Shepard of Alston, Wiltshire; m. 3) Sir Richard Basset of
Beaupre. These husbands match up to those given for Margaret in PA3,
except for the final one: PA3 has William Bassett; Ragland Jr has Sir
Richard Bassett. The bio of William Bassett of Beaupre in HOP doesn't
shed any further light:
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/bassett-william-i-1586
5) Mary Ragland m. John Fleming of Flimston co. York [sic- Flimstone
was in Glamorganshire, not Yorkshire]. The Flemings were near
neighbours of the Raglands, but beyond that fact, I've beeb unable to
confirm this marriage.
6) Barbara Ragland m. Thomas Turberville of Llantwit Major,
Glamorganshire. Like the Flemings, the Turbervilles of Llantwit Major
were close neighbours of the Raglands, but also, like the Flemings,
I've not yet been able to confirm this marriage. It's also possible
that Barbara, wife of Thomas Turberville, was a granddaughter (not
daughter) of Sir John Ragland, being the daughter of Margaret Ragland
& her 1st husband John Carne of Nash (see below).
7) Katherine Ragland m. Richard Buckler of Causeway, co. Dorset,
nephew & heir of Sir Walter Buckler. PA3 gives no marriage for Catrin
Ragland, but the following National Archives document & Buckler
pedigree from the 1565 Visitation of Dorset confirm that Ragland Jr
was correct:
http://archive.org/stream/visitationofdors00harvuoft#page/8/mode/2up
1558-1579 “Buckler v Buckler. Plaintiffs: Andrew Buckler. Defendants:
Richard Buckler, Katherine Buckler his wife and another. Subject:
manor of Warnald alias Cawseway in the parish of Radipole,
Dorset.” [The National Archives/The Catalogue/C3/8/114]
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATLN=6&CATID=4656748&j=1
Sir Walter Buckler was the second husband of Katherine Dennys (d.
1582), widow of Sir Edmund Tame of Fairford (d. 1544), and the sister
of Anne Dennys, wife of Sir John Ragland. Neither of the sources
above state which of the wives of Sir John Ragland was the mother of
Katherine. Though there's always a possibility Anne Dennys helped to
arrange a stepdaughter in marriage, the most likely case, given that
Richard Buckler was made the heir of his uncle Sir Walter, was that
Richard's wife Katherine Ragland was indeed the daughter of Anne
Dennys. Ragland Jr states that Richard Buckler had children by
Katherine. The 1565 Visitation pedigree does not assign any children
to the couple, and the Buckler pedigree in the 1623 Visitation of
Dorset merely follows the line of Richard's elder brother Alexander
Buckler:
http://archive.org/stream/visitationofcound00stge#page/n43/mode/2up
Ragland Jr doesn't state his sources for the daughters & wives of Sir
John Ragland. Another source that discusses them is "Some Account of
the Parish of Llancarvan, Glamorganshire" in 'Archaeologia
Cambrensis'. In Third Series, No. XLV (January 1866), the series
discusses the 'Manor of Carnllwyd' and the 'Pedigree of Raglan'. On p.
5:
http://archive.org/stream/archaeologiacam14moorgoog#page/n15/mode/2up
Sir John Ragland m. "1st, Elinor or Elizabeth, daughter of Sir Hugh
Courtenay", by whom he had
1) Thomas; 2) Sir John, Knight of Rhodes
Sir John Ragland m. "2nd, Mary or Ann, daughter of Sir William
Dennis", by whom he had
3) Alice, m. "1st, William Mathew of Castell-y-Mynach; 2nd, William
Herbert of Cogan-Pill, son of Sir George Herbert"
4) Margaret, m. "1st, John Carne of Nash; 2nd, John Sheppard of
Allston, Wilts; and 3rd, Richard Basset of Beaupre"
5) Mary "whose parentage is more doubtful, married John Fleming of
Flimston; 2nd, Thomas Havard"
6) Ann, "married William Lewis of St. Pierre"
Moving on to the second marriage of Anne Dennys, with Sir Edward Carne
(1495-1561) of Ewenny, Glamorganshire, PA3, as well as the bio of Sir
Edward Carne in ODNB (not cited as a source by PA3), give the couple
one son Thomas. But the bio of Sir Edward Carne in HOP (also not
cited as a source by PA3), says they had one son & four daughters.
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/carne-sir-edward-149596-1561
Three of their daughters are given in 'The Descent of Frances Carne,
Wife of Edward Turberville of Sutton' in the 1901 book 'Ewenny Priory:
Monastery and Fortress' (p. 85):
http://archive.org/stream/ewennypriorymona00turbuoft#page/84/mode/2up
The chart lists the children of Sir Edward Carne and Anne Denis as:
1) Thomas Carne m. Catherine Wyndham. This son is confirmed by his
own bio in HOP:
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/carne-thomas-1538-1603
2) Cecil Carne m. "Sir John Wogan of Wiston, Pembroke" Her husband
(who was not actually a knight) is confirmed by his bio in HOP:
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/wogan-john-1538-80
3) Barbara Carne m. 1) "Sir R. Long of Wraxal"; m. 2) "Bowyer, gent.
usher to Queen Elizabeth" Each of Barbara Carne's husbands has a bio
in HOP:
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/long-robert-151516-81
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/bowyer-simon-1550-1606
[The 4th child is not given in the chart]
5) Mary Carne m. "Paulet"
I've not yet been able to confirm this marriage.
The fourth child (a daughter) left off of the pedigree chart above
appears to have been Jane Carne, the wife of Charles Brydges of Wilton
Castle (d. 1619), a younger son of the 1st Lord Chandos. They were
ancestors of the Duke of Chandos.
So just how many children did Anne Dennys have? Another source PA3
cites for her is Smyth's 'Lives of the Berkeleys', which can be found
online here:
http://books.google.ca/books?id=uiUcAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA185&dq=Margaret+Ragland+married+John+Carne&hl=en&sa=X&ei=YMKmT_-dLMeUiAK4lf3NAg&ved=0CF0Q6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=Margaret%20Ragland%20married%20John%20Carne&f=false
Smyth, in a somewhat garbled account assigns Anne the following
children by Sir John Ragland:
1) "Sr Thomas Ragland, father of Thomas and others"
2) "And Margaret married to Mr Carne. Which Margaret had iffue Cicely
married to Mr Kemys: Barbara marryed to Mr Turvill: And one other
married to Mr Baffet; and one other married to Mr Griffiths; And one
other marryed alfo to ----." [Note: I'm assuming Smyth meant for
Barbara Turvill, Mrs Baffet, Mrs Grifiths, and the other dau, to have
been daus of Margaret Ragland Carne, but the wording is vague and he
may have meant that they were the daughters of Anne Dennys Ragland.
This may, however, explain Ragland Jr assigning a daughter Barbara,
wife of Thomas Turberville, to Sir John Ragland - see above]
By Sir Edward Carne, Smyth says Anne Dennys had the following:
3) "Thomas Carne; who married the daughter and coheire of St Walter
Hungerford, who had iffue"
4) And one other married to John Huntley Egqr fon of George, fon of
John (called with the great legge) who had iffue George Huntley of
Frocefter knight...."
Per the Huntley pedigree in the 1623 Visitation of Gloucestershire,
http://archive.org/stream/visitationofcoun00inchit#page/92/mode/2up
John Huntley, son & heir of George Huntley of Frocester & Catherine
Walshe, married "Jane d. to Sr Edward Karne of Glamorgansh. Knt.", and
were parents of "George Huntley of Frowster Knight". George Huntley
of Frocester (c.1512-1580) has a bio in HOP, which states he left his
goods to his widow, then to George, the son of his eldest son John.
It's possible that Jane Carne was married 1st to John Huntley (d.
before 1580), heir of Frocester, then 2nd to Charles Brydges of Wilton
(d. 1619).
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/huntley-george-1512-80
Exactly how many children did Anne Dennys have? At least four by her
second husband can be confirmed: 1) Thomas Carne of Ewenny (c.
1538-1603); 2) Cecily Carne m. John Wogan of Wiston (1538-1580); 3)
Barbara Carne m. 1st, Sir Robert Long of Draycot Cerne (1515-1581),
and 2nd, Simon Bowyer of London (c.1550-1606); 4) Jane Carne m. 1st,
John Huntley, heir of Frocester (d. bef. 1580), and 2nd, Charles
Brydges of Wilton (d. 1619).
In addition, two other children are very likely: 5) Mary Carne, m. to
---- Paulet (or possibly one or other of the two husbands above
assigned to Jane Carne?); 6) Katherine Ragland m. Richard Buckler of
Causeway House (for the reasons given above).
In the "probable" category, I'll add, 7) Margaret Ragland m. to John
Carne, &c., as it seems unlikely Smyth would follow her issue if she
wasn't a Berkeley descendant. I'm inclined to add Alice Ragland (m.
1st to William Mathew of Castell y Mynach &2nd to William Herbert of
Cogan Pill) as a daughter of Anne Dennys because of her first name
(perhaps she was named for Anne's mother Anne Berkeley Dennys), but if
so, it's odd that Smyth makes no mention of her. Even though Smyth
states Anne had a son Thomas with Sir John Ragland, I'm hesitant to
say that his eldest son & heir Sir Thomas Ragland of Carnllwyd (d.
1591) was from his second wife Anne Dennys. That would mean she gave
both of her sons the first name Thomas. Perhaps the younger son, John
Ragland, said to have been a Knight of Rhodes, was in reality the one
Smyth (in his garbled account) was referring to?
George Ragland Jr states that Sir John Ragland married his first wife
in 1519, and that she died between 1527 and 1530, when he married his
second wife Anne Dennys. He doesn't provide a source for these any of
these dates, unfortunately. In Magna Carta Ancestry, p. 29 (sub
Aubrey), Douglas Richardson provides a date of death for Sir John
Ragland of 1531 or 1532:
http://books.google.ca/books?id=wHZcIRMhSEMC&pg=PA29&dq=Elizabeth+Courtenay+Ragland&hl=en&sa=X&ei=IJamT5z0K6m0iQLY9ozKAg&ved=0CEEQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Elizabeth%20Courtenay%20Ragland&f=false
The date of death Douglas provides for Sir John Ragland is supported
by the following National Archives document:
1533-1538 “John Seynt John, knight, guardian to Thomas, son of John
Ragland, knight, deceased. v. Thomas (ap) David, steward to the said
Sir John Ragland.: Embezzlement of dues and detention of deeds
belonging to the manor of Molton, held of complainant by the said Sir
John Ragland.: Glamorgan.” [National Archives/The Catalogue/C
1/889/16-18]
The span 1530-1532/3, or even 1527-1532/3, does not provide a lot of
time for Anne Dennys to have had the 5 children with Sir John Ragland
assigned to her in PA3 & Magna Carta Ancestry. It seems some more
research is needed before it can be definitively shown that Alice
Ragland, wife of William Mathew, was the daughter of Anne Dennys.
Cheers, -----Brad
Douglas Richardson
May 6, 2012, 11:40:52 PM5/6/12
to
Brad ~
Your list of the children of Anne Dennis and her 2nd husband, Sir
Edward Carne (died in Rome 1561), is bloated.
According to Sir Edward Carne's will proved in 1561 (PCC, 21 Loftes),
he had a wife, Anne, one son, Thomas, one daughter, Jane, and one
illegitimate son, Thomas.
The marriage of Sir Edward Carne and Anne Dennis apparently took place
shortly before October 1538, when it was reported that he was "lately"
married "to a widow in his country" [Reference: Letters & Papers,
Henry VIII, 13:2, no. 715].
A transcript of the memorial tablet of Sir Edward Carne in the
cloister of San Gregorio in Monte Celi in Rome was recently published
in Lansford, Latin Inscriptions of Rome: A Walking Guide (2009):
201. This transcript may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=0DPzpiQqiFsC&pg=PA201
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Your list of the children of Anne Dennis and her 2nd husband, Sir
Edward Carne (died in Rome 1561), is bloated.
According to Sir Edward Carne's will proved in 1561 (PCC, 21 Loftes),
he had a wife, Anne, one son, Thomas, one daughter, Jane, and one
illegitimate son, Thomas.
The marriage of Sir Edward Carne and Anne Dennis apparently took place
shortly before October 1538, when it was reported that he was "lately"
married "to a widow in his country" [Reference: Letters & Papers,
Henry VIII, 13:2, no. 715].
A transcript of the memorial tablet of Sir Edward Carne in the
cloister of San Gregorio in Monte Celi in Rome was recently published
in Lansford, Latin Inscriptions of Rome: A Walking Guide (2009):
201. This transcript may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=0DPzpiQqiFsC&pg=PA201
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
John
May 6, 2012, 11:44:26 PM5/6/12
to
On May 6, 3:38 pm, Brad Verity <royaldesc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On p. 52 of the 3rd Edition (2004) of Plantagenet Ancestry (sub
> Aubrey), Anne Dennis is shown as m. 1) Sir John Raglan, and having 2
> sons (Sir John & Sir Thomas) and 3 daughters (Alice, Margred, and
> Catrin). The daughter Alice Raglan (who continues the line of descent
> down to Barbara Aubrey, wife of John Bevan) is shown to have had two
> husbands, William Mathew of Castell y Mynach, then William Herbert of
> Cogan Pill. The daughter Margred Raglan is assigned three husbands
> (John Carne, John Shepard & William Basset), and daughter Catrin
> Ragland is not assigned any husband. Anne Dennis is shown to have m.
> 2) Sir Edward Carne of Ewenny, and had a furher son Thomas Carne.
> Meanwhile, Sir John Raglan is said to have had a previous wife,
> Eleanor, daughter of Hugh Courtenay, Knight, and had by her two
> daughters (Mary and Ann). The daughter Mary Raglan is assigned a
> husband, John Fleming. Nowhere is it noted that the above assignment
> of children and spouses to Sir John Ragland is not certain & conflicts
> in various sources. Also, it appears that Sir Edward Carne of Ewenny
> & Anne Dennys had additional children than just one son, Thomas.
>
> In the 1978 book 'The Raglands: A History of a British-American
> Family', Volume I,http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/2768927/the-raglands-volume-1-pdf-apr...
> On p. 52 of the 3rd Edition (2004) of Plantagenet Ancestry (sub
> Aubrey), Anne Dennis is shown as m. 1) Sir John Raglan, and having 2
> sons (Sir John & Sir Thomas) and 3 daughters (Alice, Margred, and
> Catrin). The daughter Alice Raglan (who continues the line of descent
> down to Barbara Aubrey, wife of John Bevan) is shown to have had two
> husbands, William Mathew of Castell y Mynach, then William Herbert of
> Cogan Pill. The daughter Margred Raglan is assigned three husbands
> (John Carne, John Shepard & William Basset), and daughter Catrin
> Ragland is not assigned any husband. Anne Dennis is shown to have m.
> 2) Sir Edward Carne of Ewenny, and had a furher son Thomas Carne.
> Meanwhile, Sir John Raglan is said to have had a previous wife,
> Eleanor, daughter of Hugh Courtenay, Knight, and had by her two
> daughters (Mary and Ann). The daughter Mary Raglan is assigned a
> husband, John Fleming. Nowhere is it noted that the above assignment
> of children and spouses to Sir John Ragland is not certain & conflicts
> in various sources. Also, it appears that Sir Edward Carne of Ewenny
> & Anne Dennys had additional children than just one son, Thomas.
>
> In the 1978 book 'The Raglands: A History of a British-American
> author Charles J. Ragland Jr., presents a different version of Sir
> John Ragland's wives and children: "In 1519 he married Eleanor
> Courtenay in London. She was the daughter of Sir Hugh Courtenay, knt.,
> of co. Devon, and a distant cousin of King Henry VIII. Returning to
> Glamorgan in 1521, Sir John purchased the manor of Rawley in Llantwit
> par., co. Glamorgan, and there established his seat. On the death of
> his father in 1527 he acquired Carnllwyd. He appears to have divided
> his time between Rawley, Carnllwyd, and London. Sometime after 1530 he
> married for a second time one Anne Dennis (Eleanor appears to have
> died sometime between 1527 and 1530). She was the daughter of Sir
> William Dennis of Byrham, co. Gloucesterand granddaugher of Maurice,
> Lord Berkeley....Sir John had seven children, two sons by his first
> wife, and five daughters by his second marriage.” Ragland Jr. gives
> Sir John's children as:
>
> 1) Sir Thomas Ragland m. Anne, widow of Christopher Conysby & dau of
> Sir Roger Woodhouse of county Norfolk. This was Christopher Coningsby
> of Wallington Hall (d. 1547) & Sir Roger Wodehouse of Kimberley (d.
> 1560). Sir Thomas has a biography in HOP (not cited as a source in
> PA3), which does not state which of Sir John Ragland's wives was his
> mother:http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/ragl...
> John Ragland's wives and children: "In 1519 he married Eleanor
> Courtenay in London. She was the daughter of Sir Hugh Courtenay, knt.,
> of co. Devon, and a distant cousin of King Henry VIII. Returning to
> Glamorgan in 1521, Sir John purchased the manor of Rawley in Llantwit
> par., co. Glamorgan, and there established his seat. On the death of
> his father in 1527 he acquired Carnllwyd. He appears to have divided
> his time between Rawley, Carnllwyd, and London. Sometime after 1530 he
> married for a second time one Anne Dennis (Eleanor appears to have
> died sometime between 1527 and 1530). She was the daughter of Sir
> William Dennis of Byrham, co. Gloucesterand granddaugher of Maurice,
> Lord Berkeley....Sir John had seven children, two sons by his first
> wife, and five daughters by his second marriage.” Ragland Jr. gives
> Sir John's children as:
>
> 1) Sir Thomas Ragland m. Anne, widow of Christopher Conysby & dau of
> Sir Roger Woodhouse of county Norfolk. This was Christopher Coningsby
> of Wallington Hall (d. 1547) & Sir Roger Wodehouse of Kimberley (d.
> 1560). Sir Thomas has a biography in HOP (not cited as a source in
> PA3), which does not state which of Sir John Ragland's wives was his
>
> 2) Sir John Ragland - became a Knight of Rhodes and died unmarried. I
> haven't yet come upon anything to confirm Ragland Jr's statement.
>
> 3) Alice Ragland m. 1) William Mathew of Castell y Mynach; m. 2) Sir
> George Herbert [sic- should be William Herbert; Sir George was his
> father] of Cogan Pill. Alice and her marriages are confirmed by the
> bio of her 2nd husband in HOP (not cited as a source by PA3), which
> doesn't say which of Sir John Ragland's wives was Alice's mother:http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/herb...
> 2) Sir John Ragland - became a Knight of Rhodes and died unmarried. I
> haven't yet come upon anything to confirm Ragland Jr's statement.
>
> 3) Alice Ragland m. 1) William Mathew of Castell y Mynach; m. 2) Sir
> George Herbert [sic- should be William Herbert; Sir George was his
> father] of Cogan Pill. Alice and her marriages are confirmed by the
> bio of her 2nd husband in HOP (not cited as a source by PA3), which
>
> 4) Margaret Ragland m. 1) John Carne of Nash, Glamorganshire; m. 2)
> John Shepard of Alston, Wiltshire; m. 3) Sir Richard Basset of
> Beaupre. These husbands match up to those given for Margaret in PA3,
> except for the final one: PA3 has William Bassett; Ragland Jr has Sir
> Richard Bassett. The bio of William Bassett of Beaupre in HOP doesn't
> shed any further light:http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/bass...
> 4) Margaret Ragland m. 1) John Carne of Nash, Glamorganshire; m. 2)
> John Shepard of Alston, Wiltshire; m. 3) Sir Richard Basset of
> Beaupre. These husbands match up to those given for Margaret in PA3,
> except for the final one: PA3 has William Bassett; Ragland Jr has Sir
> Richard Bassett. The bio of William Bassett of Beaupre in HOP doesn't
>
> 5) Mary Ragland m. John Fleming of Flimston co. York [sic- Flimstone
> was in Glamorganshire, not Yorkshire]. The Flemings were near
> neighbours of the Raglands, but beyond that fact, I've beeb unable to
> confirm this marriage.
>
> 6) Barbara Ragland m. Thomas Turberville of Llantwit Major,
> Glamorganshire. Like the Flemings, the Turbervilles of Llantwit Major
> were close neighbours of the Raglands, but also, like the Flemings,
> I've not yet been able to confirm this marriage. It's also possible
> that Barbara, wife of Thomas Turberville, was a granddaughter (not
> daughter) of Sir John Ragland, being the daughter of Margaret Ragland
> & her 1st husband John Carne of Nash (see below).
>
> 7) Katherine Ragland m. Richard Buckler of Causeway, co. Dorset,
> nephew & heir of Sir Walter Buckler. PA3 gives no marriage for Catrin
> Ragland, but the following National Archives document & Buckler
> pedigree from the 1565 Visitation of Dorset confirm that Ragland Jr
> was correct:http://archive.org/stream/visitationofdors00harvuoft#page/8/mode/2up
>
> 1558-1579 “Buckler v Buckler. Plaintiffs: Andrew Buckler. Defendants:
> Richard Buckler, Katherine Buckler his wife and another. Subject:
> manor of Warnald alias Cawseway in the parish of Radipole,
> Dorset.” [The National Archives/The Catalogue/C3/8/114]http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails....
> 5) Mary Ragland m. John Fleming of Flimston co. York [sic- Flimstone
> was in Glamorganshire, not Yorkshire]. The Flemings were near
> neighbours of the Raglands, but beyond that fact, I've beeb unable to
> confirm this marriage.
>
> 6) Barbara Ragland m. Thomas Turberville of Llantwit Major,
> Glamorganshire. Like the Flemings, the Turbervilles of Llantwit Major
> were close neighbours of the Raglands, but also, like the Flemings,
> I've not yet been able to confirm this marriage. It's also possible
> that Barbara, wife of Thomas Turberville, was a granddaughter (not
> daughter) of Sir John Ragland, being the daughter of Margaret Ragland
> & her 1st husband John Carne of Nash (see below).
>
> 7) Katherine Ragland m. Richard Buckler of Causeway, co. Dorset,
> nephew & heir of Sir Walter Buckler. PA3 gives no marriage for Catrin
> Ragland, but the following National Archives document & Buckler
> pedigree from the 1565 Visitation of Dorset confirm that Ragland Jr
> was correct:http://archive.org/stream/visitationofdors00harvuoft#page/8/mode/2up
>
> 1558-1579 “Buckler v Buckler. Plaintiffs: Andrew Buckler. Defendants:
> Richard Buckler, Katherine Buckler his wife and another. Subject:
> manor of Warnald alias Cawseway in the parish of Radipole,
>
> Cheers, -----Brad
[This reply is with respect to only the children of Sir John Raglan by
his two wives - not the children of Anne Dennis by Edward Carne.]
This is quite a puzzle, as three of the sources given in DR's books
give quite different lists of the distribution of children between the
two marriages of Sir John Raglan. And the books take no notice of
these differences, nor do they explain why one version is preferred to
the others.
The Ragland Jr. version listed in detail above by Brad seems to be
largely based on George T. Clark's "Limbus Patrum Morganiae et
Glamorganiae" - one of the sources cited by DR (but not the one he
apparently used). This assigns Sir Thomas and Sir John to the first
marriage and 4 daughters (Alice, Margaret, Mary, and Barbara) to the
2nd marriage. There is no Katherine/Catrin (m. Buckler) for either
marriage, and the husbands for Alice, Mary and Margaret match what's
given in the Arch. Camb. article cited above. Clark also doesn't
mention a daughter Ann (m. William Lewis) listed in the Arch. Camb.
article.
One of the other sources cited by DR for Raglan is identified by him
as "Heard, Glamaorganshire Pedigrees", which is more fully identified
as Sir Thomas Phillipps, Bt., "Glamorganshire Pedigrees from the MSS
of Sir Isaac Heard, Garter King of Arms" (1845). This source, which
also disagrees with what DR finally published, assigns a son Thomas to
the 1st marriage and only 2 daughters (Alice and Margaret) to the 2nd
marriage (which is said to be to Mary - not Anne - Dennis) and gives
only the first husbands of these two daughters.
The third source cited by DR for Raglan is Bartrum's "Welsh
Genealogies", and the specific page that DR cites is available here
(although not necessarily exactly in the form of the published version
that DR presumably referenced at the FHL):
http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/4760/GODWIN%209%28A%2c%20C%29_791.png?sequence=4
This matches pretty closely what DR has published, although this
version of Bartrum (apparently his final revision) has some additions
not picked up by DR (notably the husbands of the daughters Catrin and
Ann).
So the question comes down to: Which is more accurate, Bartrum or
Clark? I don't know the answer, although I suspect that Bartrum would
probably be preferred now. It's unfortunate that DR didn't mention
this discrepancy in his books and explain WHY he preferred Bartrum to
the other versions (notably Clark).
[I suspect that the online version of Bartrum may also address the
issue of the children of Anne Dennis' 2nd marriage to Edward Carne -
but I haven't yet figured out how to navigate Bartrum to figure this
one out.]
John
May 6, 2012, 11:55:46 PM5/6/12
to
Brad's list of the children of Anne Dennis and Sir Edward Carne is
"bloated".
The fact that Sir Edward Carne's will mentions only one daughter
certainly doesn't rule out the existence of other daughters -
especially when they're supported by other evidence, as pointed out by
Brad. There are many reasons why they might not have been mentioned
in his will - as you should well know.
BTW Bartrum is no help on the children of this marriage - see this
page:
http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/5110/YNYR%20GWENT%202%28A1%29_1765.png?sequence=3
[unless someone can explain Bartrum's cryptic notations after this
marriage]
Don Stone
May 7, 2012, 12:28:33 AM5/7/12
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
On 5/6/2012 9:55 PM, John wrote:
> BTW Bartrum is no help on the children of this marriage [of Anne Dennis and Sir Edward Carne] - see this
SA: Harley 2414 by Llywelyn Siôn (d.1615?).
SC: Cardiff 2.1 (= 10 of RWM) by Dafydd Benwyn.
SE: Harley 5835, c. 1610.
Monms: Monmouthshire Bodleian Add. C.179 (by David Edwardes, d. c.1690).
-- Don Stone
> BTW Bartrum is no help on the children of this marriage [of Anne Dennis and Sir Edward Carne] - see this
> page:
> http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/5110/YNYR%20GWENT%202%28A1%29_1765.png?sequence=3
>
> [unless someone can explain Bartrum's cryptic notations after this
> marriage]
From the Abbreviations section of Bartrum's vol. 1:
> http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/5110/YNYR%20GWENT%202%28A1%29_1765.png?sequence=3
>
> [unless someone can explain Bartrum's cryptic notations after this
> marriage]
SA: Harley 2414 by Llywelyn Siôn (d.1615?).
SC: Cardiff 2.1 (= 10 of RWM) by Dafydd Benwyn.
SE: Harley 5835, c. 1610.
Monms: Monmouthshire Bodleian Add. C.179 (by David Edwardes, d. c.1690).
-- Don Stone
Brad Verity
May 7, 2012, 1:34:22 AM5/7/12
to
On May 6, 8:44 pm, John <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> The third source cited by DR for Raglan is Bartrum's "Welsh
> Genealogies", and the specific page that DR cites is available here
> (although not necessarily exactly in the form of the published version
> that DR presumably referenced at the FHL):http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/4760/GODWIN%209...
> The third source cited by DR for Raglan is Bartrum's "Welsh
> Genealogies", and the specific page that DR cites is available here
> (although not necessarily exactly in the form of the published version
> This matches pretty closely what DR has published, although this
> version of Bartrum (apparently his final revision) has some additions
> not picked up by DR (notably the husbands of the daughters Catrin and
> Ann).
Many thanks for the link to the Bartrum page, and for the summary of
> version of Bartrum (apparently his final revision) has some additions
> not picked up by DR (notably the husbands of the daughters Catrin and
> Ann).
the accounts by G.T. Clark and Isaac Heard. I could not access those
sources (at least not from Canada) and was wondering what they
contained.
> So the question comes down to: Which is more accurate, Bartrum or
> Clark? I don't know the answer, although I suspect that Bartrum would
> probably be preferred now. It's unfortunate that DR didn't mention
> this discrepancy in his books and explain WHY he preferred Bartrum to
> the other versions (notably Clark).
should have a better idea of Bartrum. But, I've tried to steer clear
of Welsh pedigrees whenever possible as I'm easily confused by them.
What exactly is Bartrum's work again? It certainly looks very
detailed. Is it his efforts at combining and sorting through earlier
Welsh pedigrees? George Thomas Clark, I know, was a Victorian-era
historian specializing in Glamorganshire who was the first to publish
many medieval documents involving that county and its families.
Thanks again, and Cheers,
--Brad
Brad Verity
May 7, 2012, 2:02:04 AM5/7/12
to
> On May 6, 8:40 pm, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
> > Your list of the children of Anne Dennis and her 2nd husband, Sir
> > Edward Carne (died in Rome 1561), is bloated.
>
> > According to Sir Edward Carne's will proved in 1561 (PCC, 21 Loftes),
> > he had a wife, Anne, one son, Thomas, one daughter, Jane, and one
> > illegitimate son, Thomas.
>
> > The marriage of Sir Edward Carne and Anne Dennis apparently took place
> > shortly before October 1538, when it was reported that he was "lately"
> > married "to a widow in his country" [Reference: Letters & Papers,
> > Henry VIII, 13:2, no. 715].
> > Your list of the children of Anne Dennis and her 2nd husband, Sir
> > Edward Carne (died in Rome 1561), is bloated.
>
> > According to Sir Edward Carne's will proved in 1561 (PCC, 21 Loftes),
> > he had a wife, Anne, one son, Thomas, one daughter, Jane, and one
> > illegitimate son, Thomas.
>
> > The marriage of Sir Edward Carne and Anne Dennis apparently took place
> > shortly before October 1538, when it was reported that he was "lately"
> > married "to a widow in his country" [Reference: Letters & Papers,
> > Henry VIII, 13:2, no. 715].
On May 6, 8:55 pm, John <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> The fact that Sir Edward Carne's will mentions only one daughter
> certainly doesn't rule out the existence of other daughters -
> especially when they're supported by other evidence, as pointed out by
> Brad. There are many reasons why they might not have been mentioned
> in his will - as you should well know.
Fully agree with John here, Douglas. According to the HOP bio of Sir
> The fact that Sir Edward Carne's will mentions only one daughter
> certainly doesn't rule out the existence of other daughters -
> especially when they're supported by other evidence, as pointed out by
> Brad. There are many reasons why they might not have been mentioned
> in his will - as you should well know.
Robert Long, he was married to Barbara Carne before 1560. Have you
seen the actual will of Sir Edward Carne? What date was it written?
It may be that Jane was the only daughter mentioned in it because she
was the only one still unmarried when he wrote it. Since her
(second?) husband Charles Brydges did not die until 1619, I would
guess Jane was Carne's youngest daughter. It's true that Jane
(identified by her marriage not her first name) is the only daughter
of Anne Dennys & Sir Edward Carne mentioned by Smyth in his 'Lives of
the Berkeleys', but he was writing at least 150 years after this
generation. Jane was also the only Carne daughter who took husbands
from Gloucestershire, the Berkeley home county. The husbands of the
other Carne daughters were from Wiltshire, Pembrokeshire & London
families, and the Berkeleys may have lost track of these more distant
relations by the time Smyth wrote his account.
L.E. Hunt, the author of Sir Edward Carne's bio in ODNB, states that
Sir Edward married Anne Dennys in 1537. So she was about five years
Sir John Ragland's widow before she re-married. As any children she
had with Ragland were still very young at that point (if Ragland Jr
was correct in his statement that Sir John and Anne Dennys were
married in 1530), I would imagine that the marriage of Margaret
Ragland to John Carne of Nash (Sir Edward's nephew) took place after
the marriage of Sir Edward and Anne.
Cheers, ------Brad
Brad Verity
May 7, 2012, 2:41:05 AM5/7/12
to
> One of the other sources cited by DR for Raglan is identified by him
> as "Heard, Glamaorganshire Pedigrees", which is more fully identified
> as Sir Thomas Phillipps, Bt., "Glamorganshire Pedigrees from the MSS
> of Sir Isaac Heard, Garter King of Arms" (1845).
One other point I've just noticed: this source above (Sir Thomas
> as "Heard, Glamaorganshire Pedigrees", which is more fully identified
> as Sir Thomas Phillipps, Bt., "Glamorganshire Pedigrees from the MSS
> of Sir Isaac Heard, Garter King of Arms" (1845).
Phillipps), says that the first wife of Sir John Ragland was
"Elizabeth, daughter to Sir Hugh Courtenay, Knt". The Archaeologia
Cambrensis account of the Raglands from 1866 says that his first wife
was "Elinor or Elizabeth, daughter of Sir Hugh Courtenay." George
Ragland Jr in 1978 said that she was Eleanor, "the daughter of Sir
Hugh Courtenay, knt.,
of co. Devon, and a distant cousin of King Henry VIII." PA3 keeps
this parentage for her.
But Bartrum, in his Raglan pedigree which John Higgins provided,
identifies her as "Eleanor f. Sir Wm Courtenay of Devon".
It would be nice if we could establish Sir John Ragland's first wife
in the Courtenay family, as she was no doubt, like his second wife
Anne Dennys, a descendant of Edward I. The only Sir Hugh Courtenay I
can locate in the late 15th-century is Sir Hugh Courtenay of Boconnoc
(c.1420-1471). He did have a daughter Elizabeth, married to John
Tretherffe (d. 1510). Elizabeth could have taken a second husband
after Tretherffe's death (Ragland Jr says Sir John Ragland married his
1st wife in London in 1519, though he doesn't cite a source for that
date), but she would've been too old for childbearing if so. Plus,
the Boconnoc branch of the Courtenays were seated in Cornwall, not
Devon.
If Bartrum was correct, however, and the father of Sir John Ragland's
first wife was Sir William (not Sir Hugh) Courtenay of Devon, then
this would be Sir William Courtenay of Powderham Castle (d. 1512). I
have (so far) in my database four children assigned to him & his wife
Cecily Cheney:
1) Sir William Courtenay (by 1485-1535), the son & heir
2) Joan Courtenay (d. 1554) m. by 1505, Sir William Carew of Mohun
Ottery (by 1485-1537)
3) Elizabeth Courtenay (d. 1518) m. by 1506, Sir John Rogers of
Bryanston (d. 1535)
4) Margaret Courtenay (d. aft. 1535) m. 1510, Thomas Danvers, Heir of
Dauntsey (by 1492-1532)
Chronologically, Eleanor Courtenay Ragland fits perfectly in this
family group. Hopefully further research will uncover something to
corroborate this placement for her.
Cheers, -------Brad
Brad Verity
May 7, 2012, 2:45:51 AM5/7/12
to
> One of the other sources cited by DR for Raglan is identified by him
> as "Heard, Glamaorganshire Pedigrees", which is more fully identified
> as Sir Thomas Phillipps, Bt., "Glamorganshire Pedigrees from the MSS
> of Sir Isaac Heard, Garter King of Arms" (1845).
> as "Heard, Glamaorganshire Pedigrees", which is more fully identified
> as Sir Thomas Phillipps, Bt., "Glamorganshire Pedigrees from the MSS
> of Sir Isaac Heard, Garter King of Arms" (1845).
One other point I've just noticed: this source above (Sir Thomas
Phillipps), says that the first wife of Sir John Ragland was
"Elizabeth, daughter to Sir Hugh Courtenay, Knt". The Archaeologia
Cambrensis account of the Raglands from 1866 says that his first wife
was "Elinor or Elizabeth, daughter of Sir Hugh Courtenay." George
Ragland Jr in 1978 said that she was Eleanor, "the daughter of Sir
Phillipps), says that the first wife of Sir John Ragland was
"Elizabeth, daughter to Sir Hugh Courtenay, Knt". The Archaeologia
Cambrensis account of the Raglands from 1866 says that his first wife
was "Elinor or Elizabeth, daughter of Sir Hugh Courtenay." George
Hugh Courtenay, knt.,
John
May 7, 2012, 12:02:09 PM5/7/12
to
AFAIK. I have a photocopy of the Heard work from the FHL (it's not
very long), and some years ago I happened to locate a reprint edition
of the Clark work through an online bookseller.
As to Bartrum, this website gives a good summary of his work:
http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/handle/2160/4026
It seems that all of the pages of Bartrum have been scanned and can be
viewed online - but you have to know the name of the page that Bartrum
assigned to each pedigree (for example, Godwin for the Raglan
pedigree). There apparently are plans to put the data (not just the
images) into an online database, but this is a massive effort and I
don't see any progress reports on it.
In the interim, most if not all of the Bartrum data, along with other
Welsh sources, has been incorporated into the Welsh nobility database
of the FHL's Community Trees project. This has been discussed before
here and can be accessed at http://histfam.familysearch.org/showtree.php?tree=Welsh.
However this database doesn't seem to be very stable, as I've often
experienced technical problems in using it. (Today, for example, if I
search for John Raglan, I can get a list of individuals but I can't
access the specific individuals from the search results list.) But
when it works, it's a very useful tool.
Hal Bradley
May 7, 2012, 1:31:02 PM5/7/12
to royald...@hotmail.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Brad,
Vivian's Vis. of Devon, p. 246 gives six daughters to William & Cecily
(Cheyne) Courtenay:
Margaret m. Thomas Danvers
Joan m. William Beaumont
Ann m. Thomas Gibbes
Cecily m. Nicholas Francis
Eleanor (no husband indicated)
Elizabeth (no husband indicated)
William Courtenay apparently did have a daughter named Eleanor, but the
chronology is a little stretched, though not impossible, for her to be the
wife of Sir John Ragland.
Hal Bradley
May 7, 2012 12:00:10 AM, royald...@hotmail.com wrote:
<snip>
If Bartrum was correct, however, and the father of Sir John Ragland's
first wife was Sir William (not Sir Hugh) Courtenay of Devon, then
this would be Sir William Courtenay of Powderham Castle (d. 1512). I
have (so far) in my database four children assigned to him & his wife
Cecily Cheney:
1) Sir William Courtenay (by 1485-1535), the son & heir
2) Joan Courtenay (d. 1554) m. by 1505, Sir William Carew of Mohun
Ottery (by 1485-1537)
3) Elizabeth Courtenay (d. 1518) m. by 1506, Sir John Rogers of
Bryanston (d. 1535)
4) Margaret Courtenay (d. aft. 1535) m. 1510, Thomas Danvers, Heir of
Dauntsey (by 1492-1532)
Chronologically, Eleanor Courtenay Ragland fits perfectly in this
family group. Hopefully further research will uncover something to
corroborate this placement for her.
Cheers, -------Brad
-------------------------------
first wife was Sir William (not Sir Hugh) Courtenay of Devon, then
this would be Sir William Courtenay of Powderham Castle (d. 1512). I
have (so far) in my database four children assigned to him & his wife
Cecily Cheney:
1) Sir William Courtenay (by 1485-1535), the son & heir
2) Joan Courtenay (d. 1554) m. by 1505, Sir William Carew of Mohun
Ottery (by 1485-1537)
3) Elizabeth Courtenay (d. 1518) m. by 1506, Sir John Rogers of
Bryanston (d. 1535)
4) Margaret Courtenay (d. aft. 1535) m. 1510, Thomas Danvers, Heir of
Dauntsey (by 1492-1532)
Chronologically, Eleanor Courtenay Ragland fits perfectly in this
family group. Hopefully further research will uncover something to
corroborate this placement for her.
Cheers, -------Brad
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Brad Verity
May 7, 2012, 4:39:31 PM5/7/12
to
On May 7, 9:02 am, John <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> The works by Clark and heard (Phllipps ed.) are not available online
> AFAIK. I have a photocopy of the Heard work from the FHL (it's not
> very long), and some years ago I happened to locate a reprint edition
> of the Clark work through an online bookseller.
Thanks again for sharing the information from these. I've often
>
> The works by Clark and heard (Phllipps ed.) are not available online
> AFAIK. I have a photocopy of the Heard work from the FHL (it's not
> very long), and some years ago I happened to locate a reprint edition
> of the Clark work through an online bookseller.
thought we as a newsgroup should create a wish list of genealogy works
that we'd like to have available online. I'm not technologically
savvy enough to know how to make scanned pages into web pages, but I
do have access to large university libraries & (once in awhile) the
FHL in Salt Lake City, as well as having a scanner, & would be happy
to scan works into pdf pages, which maybe someone else could then
convert into online pages.
> As to Bartrum, this website gives a good summary of his work:http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/handle/2160/4026
> It seems that all of the pages of Bartrum have been scanned and can be
> viewed online - but you have to know the name of the page that Bartrum
> assigned to each pedigree (for example, Godwin for the Raglan
> pedigree). There apparently are plans to put the data (not just the
> images) into an online database, but this is a massive effort and I
> don't see any progress reports on it.
that's a fantastic start. Thanks for the link to that project.
> In the interim, most if not all of the Bartrum data, along with other
> Welsh sources, has been incorporated into the Welsh nobility database
> of the FHL's Community Trees project. This has been discussed before
> However this database doesn't seem to be very stable, as I've often
> experienced technical problems in using it. (Today, for example, if I
> search for John Raglan, I can get a list of individuals but I can't
> access the specific individuals from the search results list.) But
> when it works, it's a very useful tool.
It seems to be up & running again now. Here's a link to the page on
> experienced technical problems in using it. (Today, for example, if I
> search for John Raglan, I can get a list of individuals but I can't
> access the specific individuals from the search results list.) But
> when it works, it's a very useful tool.
Barbara Carne, the daughter of John Carne of Nash and Margaret
Ragland:
http://histfam.familysearch.org/getperson.php?personID=I71337&tree=Welsh
I don't agree with the estimated birthdate assigned to her of "about
1570" (the latest year her mother Margaret could have been born was
1532), but it seems she was married to a Turberville, and this may be
the origin of George Thomas Clark (in 'Limbus'), followed by George
Ragland Jr in 1978, assigning a daughter Barbara, wife of Thomas
Turberville, to Sir James Ragland & Anne Dennys.
The database does assign all four daughters discussed up-thread to
Anne Dennys & second husband Sir Edward Carne:
http://histfam.familysearch.org/getperson.php?personID=I53975&tree=Welsh
Thanks & Cheers, -----Brad
Wjhonson
May 7, 2012, 4:54:26 PM5/7/12
to royald...@hotmail.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
If you provide me with the PDFs, and you don't do more than fifty a day (!) I could make these into web pages.
<<FHL in Salt Lake City, as well as having a scanner, & would be happy
o scan works into pdf pages, which maybe someone else could then
onvert into online pages.>>
-----Original Message-----
From: Brad Verity <royald...@hotmail.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Mon, May 7, 2012 1:46 pm
Subject: Re: PA3 Additions: Anne Dennys Ragland Carne
On May 7, 9:02 am, John <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:
The works by Clark and heard (Phllipps ed.) are not available online
AFAIK. I have a photocopy of the Heard work from the FHL (it's not
very long), and some years ago I happened to locate a reprint edition
of the Clark work through an online bookseller.
Thanks again for sharing the information from these. I've often
hought we as a newsgroup should create a wish list of genealogy works
hat we'd like to have available online. I'm not technologically
avvy enough to know how to make scanned pages into web pages, but I
o have access to large university libraries & (once in awhile) the
HL in Salt Lake City, as well as having a scanner, & would be happy
o scan works into pdf pages, which maybe someone else could then
onvert into online pages.
> As to Bartrum, this website gives a good summary of his work:http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/handle/2160/4026
Wow - what an impressive life's work!
> It seems that all of the pages of Bartrum have been scanned and can be
viewed online - but you have to know the name of the page that Bartrum
assigned to each pedigree (for example, Godwin for the Raglan
pedigree). There apparently are plans to put the data (not just the
images) into an online database, but this is a massive effort and I
don't see any progress reports on it.
At least they have all of his pages scanned & available online -
> As to Bartrum, this website gives a good summary of his work:http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/handle/2160/4026
Wow - what an impressive life's work!
> It seems that all of the pages of Bartrum have been scanned and can be
viewed online - but you have to know the name of the page that Bartrum
assigned to each pedigree (for example, Godwin for the Raglan
pedigree). There apparently are plans to put the data (not just the
images) into an online database, but this is a massive effort and I
don't see any progress reports on it.
At least they have all of his pages scanned & available online -
hat's a fantastic start. Thanks for the link to that project.
> In the interim, most if not all of the Bartrum data, along with other
Welsh sources, has been incorporated into the Welsh nobility database
of the FHL's Community Trees project. This has been discussed before
here and can be accessed athttp://histfam.familysearch.org/showtree.php?tree=Welsh.
However this database doesn't seem to be very stable, as I've often
experienced technical problems in using it. (Today, for example, if I
search for John Raglan, I can get a list of individuals but I can't
access the specific individuals from the search results list.) But
when it works, it's a very useful tool.
It seems to be up & running again now. Here's a link to the page on
> In the interim, most if not all of the Bartrum data, along with other
Welsh sources, has been incorporated into the Welsh nobility database
of the FHL's Community Trees project. This has been discussed before
here and can be accessed athttp://histfam.familysearch.org/showtree.php?tree=Welsh.
However this database doesn't seem to be very stable, as I've often
experienced technical problems in using it. (Today, for example, if I
search for John Raglan, I can get a list of individuals but I can't
access the specific individuals from the search results list.) But
when it works, it's a very useful tool.
It seems to be up & running again now. Here's a link to the page on
arbara Carne, the daughter of John Carne of Nash and Margaret
agland:
http://histfam.familysearch.org/getperson.php?personID=I71337&tree=Welsh
I don't agree with the estimated birthdate assigned to her of "about
http://histfam.familysearch.org/getperson.php?personID=I71337&tree=Welsh
I don't agree with the estimated birthdate assigned to her of "about
570" (the latest year her mother Margaret could have been born was
532), but it seems she was married to a Turberville, and this may be
he origin of George Thomas Clark (in 'Limbus'), followed by George
agland Jr in 1978, assigning a daughter Barbara, wife of Thomas
urberville, to Sir James Ragland & Anne Dennys.
The database does assign all four daughters discussed up-thread to
The database does assign all four daughters discussed up-thread to
nne Dennys & second husband Sir Edward Carne:
http://histfam.familysearch.org/getperson.php?personID=I53975&tree=Welsh
Thanks & Cheers, -----Brad
------------------------------
http://histfam.familysearch.org/getperson.php?personID=I53975&tree=Welsh
Thanks & Cheers, -----Brad
o unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com
ith the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of
he message
Brad Verity
May 7, 2012, 6:02:28 PM5/7/12
to
On May 7, 10:31 am, Hal Bradley <hw.brad...@verizon.net> wrote:
> Brad,
> Vivian's Vis. of Devon, p. 246 gives six daughters to William & Cecily
> (Cheyne) Courtenay:
Many thanks for posting this Hal! Vivian's 'Visitation of Devon' is
> Brad,
> Vivian's Vis. of Devon, p. 246 gives six daughters to William & Cecily
> (Cheyne) Courtenay:
another resource I cannot access online.
> Margaret m. Thomas Danvers
Their grandson, Sir John Danvers of Dauntsey (1540-1594) was the
husband of Elizabeth Neville (1550-1630), one of the coheirs of the
Barony of Latimer.
> Joan m. William Beaumont
This is an error by Vivian. The Joan Courtenay who married William
Beaumont of Shirwell & Gittisham (1427-1454) belongs two generations
back, as the daughter of Sir Philip Courtenay of Powderham (1404-1463)
& Elizabeth Hungerford (c.1410-1476). That Joan married 2ndly, Sir
Henry Bodrugan of Bodrugan (c.1426-1489). She was involved in a
scandal, for she had her son John Beaumont of Bodrugan (c.1450-1487),
by her second husband while she was still married to her first one.
There is a bio of her son in Wedgwood's HOP.
The Joan Courtenay (d. 1554) who was a daughter of Sir William
Courtenay of Powderham (d. 1512) & Cecily Cheney, was married to Sir
William Carew of Mohun Ottery (by 1485-1537), and was mother to (among
others) Sir George Carew (by 1505-1545) & Sir Peter Carew (1514-1575),
each of whom have bios in ODNB and HOP. Here are links to their HOP
bios:
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/carew-george-1505-45
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/carew-sir-peter-1510-75
> Ann m. Thomas Gibbes
This daughter is new to me, but it appears her husband was Thomas
Gibbes of Venton & Rewe, Devon. Their son, William Gibbes (d. 1570),
according to his bio in HOP, was involved in January 1554 in a plot to
overthrow Queen Mary with Sir Gawain Carew, Sir Peter Carew, Henry
Grey, Duke of Suffolk, & others. Sir Peter Carew was his first cousin
(see above).
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/gibbes-william-i-1570
I've now added Anne, her husband & their son to my database.
> Cecily m. Nicholas Francis
This daughter is also new to me. Her husband appears to be Nicholas
Francis of Comb Flory, Somersetshire, whose will was dated 13 June
1526, and proved 26 December 1526:
http://books.google.ca/books?id=RktFAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA21&dq=Nicholas+Francis+of+Comb+Flory&hl=en&sa=X&ei=7DWoT_flJKGRiQKt8KWYAg&sqi=2&ved=0CDkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Nicholas%20Francis%20of%20Comb%20Flory&f=false
It will be interesting to further research the Francises of Comb
Flory.
> Eleanor (no husband indicated)
> Elizabeth (no husband indicated)
Bryanston, Dorset (d. 1535). Her son Sir John Rogers (by 1507-1565)
has a bio in HOP:
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/rogers-sir-john-1507-65
She also had at least one daughter, Joan Rogers, who was the first
wife of Richard, 9th Lord Zouche of Haryngworth (c.1510-1552).
Elizabeth Courtenay & Sir John Rogers are ancestors (thru their great-
granddaughter, Honora Rogers), of the Seymour Dukes of Somerset.
Since we know Elizabeth married in spite of not being assigned a
husband by Vivian, it's quite possible Eleanor married as well.
> William Courtenay apparently did have a daughter named Eleanor, but the
> chronology is a little stretched, though not impossible, for her to be the
> wife of Sir John Ragland.
William Courtenay of Powderham (d. 1535), born by 1485, using the date
of his marriage - by 4 Nov. 1506 - as the starting point. It seems he
was definitely born in the 1480s. We don't have a date of birth for
Sir John Ragland (d. by 1533), but according to Ragland Jr's account
of him, he was in the battle of Flodden Field in 1513 and knighted at
Tournai, which is impossible (they were simultaneous campaigns - he
was either at one or the other). Sir Edward Carne, the second husband
of Ragland's second wife Anne Dennys, was born 1495/96, and I would
guess Sir John Ragland was also born in the 1480s/early 1490s, first
coming into prominence in 1513.
The Courtenays of Powderham had nothing to do with Glamorganshire,
where the Raglands were seated, so that the marriage happened at all
is interesting. According to Sir William Courtenay's HOP bio, he was
on Henry VIII's military campaigns in 1514 & 1523, and spent much time
at Court in that period. According to Ragland Jr's account of Sir
John Ragland, he married Eleanor Courtenay in London in 1519, and
divided his time between London and Gloucestershire in this period.
My guess would be that Sir William and Sir John were together on the
1514 military campaign & grew to know each other thru Court. Eleanor
was likely Sir William's youngest sister, and as their father had died
a few years back, it was up to Sir William to settle her in marriage.
Another interesting tidbit from Sir William Courtenay's HOP bio is
that he was closely associated with Sir Thomas Denys (by 1477-1561).
Sir Thomas was of the Devon Denys family of Holcombe Burnell. I don't
know if they were related to the Dennys family of Gloucestershire that
Sir John Ragland's second wife Anne was from, but Sir William
Courtenay could as well be the link to how Sir John's second marriage
took place.
At this point, I'm entering Eleanor Courtenay, 1st wife of Sir John
Ragland, in my database as the daughter of Sir William Courtenay of
Powderham (d. 1512) & Cecily Cheney.
Cheers, --------Brad
Brad Verity
May 7, 2012, 9:35:05 PM5/7/12
to
On May 7, 1:54 pm, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
> If you provide me with the PDFs, and you don't do more than fifty a day (!) I could make these into web pages.
Thanks, Will! Hal Bradley has offered to send me a pdf of Vivian's
> If you provide me with the PDFs, and you don't do more than fifty a day (!) I could make these into web pages.
'Visitation of Devon'. Apparently it's available online thru the BYU
Library website, but, though I can bring up the list of their holdings
on their website, when I click on any of the titles, the only thing
that comes up is a gray screen.
Would you like to make Vivian's 'Devon' the first project?
Does anyone else have any requests?
Thanks and Cheers,
---Brad
John
May 8, 2012, 12:31:53 AM5/8/12
to
plus more, have now been incorporated into the FHL catalog. For items
that are downloadable, you should see a catalog entry like this one,
for Vivian's Devon:
https://www.familysearch.org/eng/library/fhlcatalog/supermainframeset.asp?display=titledetails&titleno=278428&
[watch the line wrap]
Clicking on either of the indicated links (in this case) should open a
window that will download the entire book (or the indicated part of
the book, in this case) into your browser in an Adobe reader. Once
the download is completed, you can save it to your own repository
(hard drive or otherwise) as a PDF.
In addition to checking Google Books and the Internet Archive, it's
now a good idea to also check the FHL catalog to see if an item may be
available in PDF format.
Brad Verity
May 8, 2012, 11:55:14 AM5/8/12
to
On May 7, 9:31 pm, John <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> All the scanned books that started out on the BYU Library website,
> plus more, have now been incorporated into the FHL catalog. For items
> that are downloadable, you should see a catalog entry like this one,
> for Vivian's Devon:
>
> https://www.familysearch.org/eng/library/fhlcatalog/supermainframeset...
> All the scanned books that started out on the BYU Library website,
> plus more, have now been incorporated into the FHL catalog. For items
> that are downloadable, you should see a catalog entry like this one,
> for Vivian's Devon:
>
> [watch the line wrap]
>
> Clicking on either of the indicated links (in this case) should open a
> window that will download the entire book (or the indicated part of
> the book, in this case) into your browser in an Adobe reader. Once
> the download is completed, you can save it to your own repository
> (hard drive or otherwise) as a PDF.
Thanks, John. I was finally able to open up Vivian's 'Devon'. There
>
> Clicking on either of the indicated links (in this case) should open a
> window that will download the entire book (or the indicated part of
> the book, in this case) into your browser in an Adobe reader. Once
> the download is completed, you can save it to your own repository
> (hard drive or otherwise) as a PDF.
was a problem with my Adobe reader or something. My partner fixed it
and all is good. Great to have access to all of the online works from
FHL catalog!
Offer still stands - if someone from this newsgroup cannot access a
genealogy book online, and if it's one that I can access thru one of
the major libraries near me, I'm happy to copy & scan the pages, and
with Will's help, make it available online.
Thanks & Cheers, -------Brad
Wjhonson
May 8, 2012, 12:18:01 PM5/8/12
to royald...@hotmail.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
I don't mind starting with any of the Vis Brad.
I'm constantly starting a Vis, to index the contents, and getting lost after the first page, because I am making dozens of connections and spinning out on tangents through families.
The very first family in Vivian's Devon through me an odd loop I'm still trying to untangle.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brad Verity <royald...@hotmail.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tue, May 8, 2012 9:08 am
Subject: Re: PA3 Additions: Anne Dennys Ragland Carne
On May 7, 9:31 pm, John <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> All the scanned books that started out on the BYU Library website,
plus more, have now been incorporated into the FHL catalog. For items
that are downloadable, you should see a catalog entry like this one,
for Vivian's Devon:
https://www.familysearch.org/eng/library/fhlcatalog/supermainframeset...
[watch the line wrap]
Clicking on either of the indicated links (in this case) should open a
window that will download the entire book (or the indicated part of
the book, in this case) into your browser in an Adobe reader. Once
the download is completed, you can save it to your own repository
(hard drive or otherwise) as a PDF.
Thanks, John. I was finally able to open up Vivian's 'Devon'. There
> All the scanned books that started out on the BYU Library website,
plus more, have now been incorporated into the FHL catalog. For items
that are downloadable, you should see a catalog entry like this one,
for Vivian's Devon:
https://www.familysearch.org/eng/library/fhlcatalog/supermainframeset...
[watch the line wrap]
Clicking on either of the indicated links (in this case) should open a
window that will download the entire book (or the indicated part of
the book, in this case) into your browser in an Adobe reader. Once
the download is completed, you can save it to your own repository
(hard drive or otherwise) as a PDF.
Thanks, John. I was finally able to open up Vivian's 'Devon'. There
as a problem with my Adobe reader or something. My partner fixed it
nd all is good. Great to have access to all of the online works from
HL catalog!
Offer still stands - if someone from this newsgroup cannot access a
Offer still stands - if someone from this newsgroup cannot access a
enealogy book online, and if it's one that I can access thru one of
he major libraries near me, I'm happy to copy & scan the pages, and
ith Will's help, make it available online.
Thanks & Cheers, -------Brad
Thanks & Cheers, -------Brad
John
May 8, 2012, 1:00:23 PM5/8/12
to
> ith the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of
> he message
Virtually all of the published visitations are already online -
> he message
although admittedly many are available only via Google Books, which
causes problems for many users outside the US. Joe Cochoit's list (at
https://sites.google.com/site/cochoit/home/visitations) is an
excellent guide to these - although he does not yet include references
to items available through the FHL catalog (like Vivian's Devon).
It's the non-visitation items that are often harder to find - county
or local histories, or family histories.
I've made a practice of downloading almost anything I find of
interest, because you can never know how long they will remain
available online. Some items that were once full-view on Google are
no longer so. Occasionally I've considered offering copies of these
downloaded PDFs to readers here, but they're generally too big to be
sent by email. Oh, well....
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