Neville of Scotton / Cauntelo / Ros of Ingmanthorpe / de la Haye of Arlington
John Watson
Eustache, daughter of Ralph son of Hugh of Greasley, married twice,
firstly to Nicholas de Cauntelo and secondly to William de Ros of
Ingmanthorpe, Yorkshire. Concerning her mother we have only two small
clues, which are shown in the footnotes of Complete Peerage, Vol. 3,
p. 111 “The widow of this Ralph is called Joan de Cantilupo on the
Fine Roll, 49 Hen. Ill, m. 4, under date 29 Apr. 1265. The mother of
Eustache was sister,and in her issue heir, of Piers de la Haye, of
Arlington, Sussex (Ch. Inq. p. m., Edw. I, file 64, no. 21: Exch. Inq.
p. m. Enrolments, no. 4).”
There is one thing which may be wrong with this statement, the
inquisition post mortem of Peter de la Haye does not say that Joan was
his sister, only that she was his heir [1].
So who was Joan de la Haye? From the evidence I have found, it
appears that her father was Ralph de la Haye, who was a tenant in
chief of lands in Middleton and Wirlington (Arlington?), Sussex and
Burwell, Lincolnshire.
Ralph was born in the early years of the thirteenth century. I have
yet to determine who his father was, but his mother may well have been
the ‘Sara de Haia’, was holding 10 hides in Middeltone, Sussex in
1210-12 [3]. Sometime around 1225, Ralph de la Haye married Eustache
Trian, of Oxenton, Gloucestershire [4]. She was the widow of Robert de
Neville of Scotton, Lincolnshire, who was probably the son of the
Ralph de Neville who in 1189 held 3 fees in Scotton and Manton from
Peterborough, and was sued in 1201 as to the manors of Filey, Righton,
etc. and who died about 1212 [5]. Robert de Neville and Eustache were
holding Oxenton in 1214 [4].
Eustache was the mother of Robert’s son Philip de Neville which is
shown by an entry in the Close Rolls of 13 July 1254: “Pro Philippo de
Nevill'. - Quia nulla custodia ad regem pertinet de manerio de
Toringe, quod Radulphus de la Haye tenuit per legem terre de
hereditate Eustachie quondam uxoris sue matris Philippi de Nevill'
cujus heres ipse est, mandatum est escaetori regis in comitatu Sussex'
quod, si quid ceperit de manerio supradicto post mortem predicti
Radulphi, id eidem Philippo sine dilacione restitui faciat.” [6].
This does not fit with the pedigree of Neville of Scotton given in
John Ravilious’ post, “Nevill(e) of Scotton, co. Lincs.”, of 2
December 2006, see
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2006-12/1165066263
as it appears that, Sir Robert de Neville who held Manton and Scotton
of Peterborough, 1210-12 and presented to Scotton, 1218-19 and died
before 22 Jan 1221 was the father of Philip de Neville, and not Ralph
de Neville (died before 1243) as shown in John’s post. The Ralph who
died in 1243, must have been Philip’s older brother by an earlier
wife.
Eustache died sometime after 1246, when there is a record of a fine
between Ralph de la Haye and Eustache his wife and John de la Haye
concerning the manor of Oxenton, Gloucestershire and 60 shillings of
rent in Berkeham, Sussex [7].
After her death, Ralph married secondly Isabel, daughter of John de
Montacute (d. 1228) [8]. They were married before March 1253, when the
inquisition post mortem was taken of William Echingham, who had
married Isabel’s sister [9]. Ralph de la Haye died in June 1254. His
inquisition post mortem was taken on 1 July 1254, where it was found
that ‘John de Haya’, aged 30, is his heir [10]. Following Ralph’s
death, Isabel married secondly, before 16 January 1256, Thomas de
Audeham (d. 1276) and was the mother of his son and heir Baldwin [9].
I am assuming that Joan de la Haye was the daughter of Ralph and
Eustache (since Joan named her daughter Eustache) and that John de la
Haye was her brother. John was born in or before 1224, which fits in
well with a death date of around 1220, for Eustache’s first husband,
Robert de Neville, given in John’s post.
Ralph’s heir John died before 19 July 1274, when the escheator was
ordered take into the king's hand the manors of Middelton (Milton
Street, Sussex?) and Werlington late of John de la Haye, deceased,
tenant in chief [11]. John de la Haye’s heir was found to be his son
named John, who was aged 20 at the date of his father’s inquisition
post mortem [12].
John de la Haye the younger, married Joan, and died before 27 December
1292, when the escheator beyond Trent was ordered to take into the
king's hand the lands late of John de la Haye, deceased, tenant in
chief [13]. Within 3 weeks, the escheator was given the same order
again, but this time he was also told to take into the king's hand the
lands late of Peter de la Haye, deceased, tenant in chief [14].
Peter de la Haye was the younger brother of John de la Haye, as shown
in this entry in the Patent Rolls of 13 November 1292, “Licence for
John de la Haye to enfeoff Peter de la Haye, his brother, in land to
the yearly value of 100s. in Wirlington, held in chief” [15]. Peter
must have died within a few days of John.
John de la Haye and Joan had no surviving children, as shown in an
entry in the Close Rolls after Joan’s death in 1309: “14 March 1309,
Order to deliver to Roger le Ware the manor of Middilton near Pevense,
held in chief of the king by the service of a black sparrow-hawk
(esperverium sorum) at the exchequer, taken into the king's hands by
reason of the death of Joan, wife of John de la Haye, as it appears by
a fine levied in the late king's court before Thomas de Weylond and
his fellows, justices of the Bench, between the said John and Joan and
the said Roger that Roger acknowledged the manor to be the right of
the said John, and rendered it to him and Joan in court, to have and
to hold to them and their heirs of the body, with remainder over to
him after the death of the said John and Joan in case the said John
died without an heir of his body; he having died without an heir of
his body, the king has taken the fealty of the said Roger” [16].
On 15 March 1293, the escheator on this side of Trent was ordered to
deliver to William de Ros and Eustachia his wife, kinswoman and heir
of Peter de la Haye, tenant in chief, the lands late of her said
kinsman, William having done homage [17].
From the evidence that I have given above it appears that Peter de la
Haye was the nephew of Joan de la Haye who married Ralph son of Hugh
of Greasley, Nottinghamshire, and not his sister as stated in CP.
Any correction, additions or comments would be gratefully received.
Regards,
John
References:
1. Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, Vol. 3, p. 65
http://www.archive.org/details/cu31924011387812
2. 'Houses of Augustinian canons: Priory of Michelham', A History of
the County of Sussex: Volume 2 (1973), pp. 77-80
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=36592
3. Hubert Hall, Red Book of the Exchequer, Part 2 (London: 1896) p.
555
4. 'Parishes: Oxenton', A History of the County of Gloucester: volume
8 (1968), pp. 220-228
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=66405
5. Complete Peerage, Vol. 9, p. 477
6. Calendar of Close Rolls, Henry III: volume 8: 1253-1254 (1929), pp.
79-91
7. An abstract of Feet of Fines for the County of Sussex: vol. 1:
1190-1248 (1903), pp. 107-115
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=65772
8. William Farrer, Honors and Knight’s Fees (1923) p. 200
http://books.google.com/books?id=3GO7AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA200
9. Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, Volume 1: Henry III (1904),
pp. 74-80
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=108011
10. Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, Volume 1: Henry III (1904),
pp. 74-80
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=108011
11. Calendar of Fine Rolls, Vol. 1, p. 25
12. Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, Volume 2: Edward I (1906),
pp. 31-43.
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=108076
13. Calendar of Fine Rolls, Vol. 1, p. 317
14. Calendar of Fine Rolls, Vol. 1, p. 318
15. Calendar of Patent Rolls, Edward 1, Vol. 2, p. 511
16. Calendar of Close Rolls, Edward II: volume 1: 1307-1313 (1892),
pp. 93-102
John P. Ravilious
> 2. 'Houses of Augustinian canons: Priory of Michelham', A History of
> 3. Hubert Hall, Red Book of the Exchequer, Part 2 (London: 1896) p.
> 555
> 4. 'Parishes: Oxenton', A History of the County of Gloucester: volume
> 5. Complete Peerage, Vol. 9, p. 477
> 6. Calendar of Close Rolls, Henry III: volume 8: 1253-1254 (1929), pp.
> 79-91
> 7. An abstract of Feet of Fines for the County of Sussex: vol. 1:
> 8. William Farrer, Honors and Knight’s Fees (1923) p. 200http://books.google.com/books?id=3GO7AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA200
> 9. Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, Volume 1: Henry III (1904),
> 10. Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, Volume 1: Henry III (1904),
> 11. Calendar of Fine Rolls, Vol. 1, p. 25
> 12. Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, Volume 2: Edward I (1906),
> 13. Calendar of Fine Rolls, Vol. 1, p. 317
> 14. Calendar of Fine Rolls, Vol. 1, p. 318
> 15. Calendar of Patent Rolls, Edward 1, Vol. 2, p. 511
> 16. Calendar of Close Rolls, Edward II: volume 1: 1307-1313 (1892),
> pp. 93-102
=======================
Sunday, 22 November, 2009
Dear John,
Many thanks for that. I will examine this in closer detail
later, but I did want to respond in short order to indicate that I
think this is spot on.
My notes from Complete Peerage put forward that Ralph de Neville
of Scotton (fl. ca. 1227-1242 or so) was the heir of his nephew Ralph,
evidently son of Robert [CP IX:477], but this may result from there
being another missing Neville in the mix: it would appear that the 2nd
Ralph, and Philip de Neville, were sons of Robert by Eustachia
Trian.
I wondered about the disposition of Oxenton, Gloucs. after
reading your post, as I had no notes re: same in my Nevill of Scotton
files. I find that this manor came into the hands of the de la Hayes
via a quitclaim by Philip de Neville to John de la Haye [evidently his
younger half-brother] in 1251 [1]. The text of the quitclaim should
be interesting if it can be located.
Grazie mille!
John
Notes
[1] C. R. Elrington, ed., A History of the County of Gloucester
(1968), VIII:220-228.
URL:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=66405
Douglas Richardson
I can add some additional information regarding Sir John de la Haye,
died 1274, whose wife, Margaret de Harcourt, was a granddaughter of
the Magna Carta baron, Saher de Quincy, 1st Earl of Winchester. As
best I can tell, Sir John de la Haye and his wife, Margaret, have no
living descendants. As such, I concur with your conclusion that Joan
de la Haye, wife of Ralph Fitz Hugh, of Greasley and South Muskham,
Nottinghamshire, was not the daughter of Sir John de la Haye, but
rather his sister.
Best always, Douglas RIchardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + + + +
JOHN DE LA HAYE, Knt., of Burwell, Lincolnshire and Arlington and
Middleton, Sussex, Constable of Winchelsea and Rye Castles, Sheriff of
Surrey and Sussex, Steward to King Henry III, son and heir of Ralph de
la Haye, Knt., of Burwell, Lincolnshire, born about 1224 (aged 30 in
1254). He married before 1254 MARGARET DE HARCOURT, daughter of
Richard de Harcourt, Knt., of Stanton Harcourt, Oxfordshire, by
Orabel, daughter of Saher de Quincy, Knt.., Earl of Winchester, Magna
Carta baron. They had two sons, John, Knt., and Peter. Having sworn
to abide by the Award of Kenilworth, he was received into the king’s
peace 13 July 1267. SIR JOHN DE LA HAYE died shortly before 14 April
1274.
References:
Cal. IPM 1 (1904): 76; 2 (1906): 42. Cal. Inqs. Misc. 1 1916): 102.
Moor, Knights of Edward I 2 (H.S.P. 81) (1929): 211–212. Powicke,
King Henry III & the Lord Edward (1947): 426, 518, 537. Treharne,
Baronial Plan of Reform 1258–1263 (1971): 267, 279, 313, 322, 331–
332. Treharne, Simon de Montfort & Baronial Reform (1986): 154, 161.
Howell, Eleanor of Provence (1998): 198, 202.
Alex Maxwell Findlater
be called Joan de Cauntelo, when she was married to Ralph FitzHugh.
Have I missed something, or is somehing missing?
Douglas Richardson
Here is another reference to add to your pile of citations regarding
Eustache Fitz Ralph, wife of William de Roos, being the heiress of
Peter de la Haye:
Annual Rpt. of the Deputy Keeper 7 (1846): 247. This item is
available at the following weblink:
\http://books.google.com/books?id=DhVcAAAAQAAJ&pg=RA2-PA247&dq=%22Peter
+de+la+Haye%22&lr=#v=onepage&q=%22Peter%20de%20la%20Haye%22&f=false
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
CE Wood
Do I have this right?
Robert de Neville (d bef 1220) married ?? and had Ralph I (d bef 1243)
Robert married Eustachia Trian and had Ralph II and Philip (d bef
1274)
Eustachia Trian de Neville, widowed bef 1220, then married Ralph de la
Haye (d Jun 1254). She died aft 1246.
Ralph de la Haye and Eustachia had Joan (m Ralph FitzHugh) and John de
la Haye (bef 1224-bef 1292) who married Joan ??
CE Wood
Alex Maxwell Findlater
Was she married to a Cauntelo also? That might explain the appearance
of Nicholas de Cauntelo. Perhaps she was the last wife of his
father? That would be quite a common pattern at this period.
John P. Ravilious
--------------------------
Wednesday, 25 November, 2009
Dear Alex,
My notes, in part from Complete Peerage [vol. V p. 693, sub
_Gloucester_], give Nicholas' father William de Cantelupe/Cantelou (d.
22 Feb 1250/1) a single wife Millicent de Gournay, married (1st)
before 1204 to Amauri de Montfort, count of Evreux (dsp bef Nov 1213)
and (2nd) William, as above. I also have it that Millicent survived
William, so the 2nd wife option (sans divorce) appears void.
Another Cantelupe could be involved of course. I only show 2
brothers for this William de Cantelupe, but neither appears helpful:
(1) Walter de Cantelupe, Bishop of Worcester (d. 12 Feb 1265/6) and
Mathew de Cantelupe, rector of Ribston, Yorks.
Back to the scrolls, I fear...
Cheers,
John
Doug
I think it goes like this if i followed the thread right:
1. Eustachia filia Ralph m. Nicholas de Cauntelo (of Ilkeston) and Sir
William de Ros.
2. Ralph fitz Hugh of Gresley m. Joan de la Haye
3. Ralph de la Haye m. Eustachia de Trian
4. Hugh fitz Ralph of Gresley m. Agnes de Gresley
Doug Smith
John Watson
> 2. 'Houses of Augustinian canons: Priory of Michelham', A History of
> 3. Hubert Hall, Red Book of the Exchequer, Part 2 (London: 1896) p.
> 555
> 4. 'Parishes: Oxenton', A History of the County of Gloucester: volume
> 5. Complete Peerage, Vol. 9, p. 477
> 6. Calendar of Close Rolls, Henry III: volume 8: 1253-1254 (1929), pp.
> 79-91
> 7. An abstract of Feet of Fines for the County of Sussex: vol. 1:
> 8. William Farrer, Honors and Knight’s Fees (1923) p. 200http://books.google.com/books?id=3GO7AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA200
> 9. Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, Volume 1: Henry III (1904),
> 10. Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, Volume 1: Henry III (1904),
> 11. Calendar of Fine Rolls, Vol. 1, p. 25
> 12. Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, Volume 2: Edward I (1906),
> 13. Calendar of Fine Rolls, Vol. 1, p. 317
> 14. Calendar of Fine Rolls, Vol. 1, p. 318
> 15. Calendar of Patent Rolls, Edward 1, Vol. 2, p. 511
> 16. Calendar of Close Rolls, Edward II: volume 1: 1307-1313 (1892),
> pp. 93-102
Hi all,
A small correction to my previous post. I wrote "After her death,
Ralph [de la Haye] married secondly Isabel, daughter of John de
Montacute (d. 1228) "
This is incorrect. Isabel was the daughter of William Montague,
younger brother of John Montague. Here are a few more details about
her.
John de Montague died in 1227 or 1228, leaving a daughter Katherine,
underage. Katherine de Montague died childless about the beginning of
1244.
William de Montague died about 1238, leaving two daughters, Margaret
or Margery, and Isabel, a minor. Margaret and Isabel, thus became co-
heirs of all the Montague estates. Margery was already the wife of Sir
William de Echingham; he died without issue in 1252, his brother Simon
being his heir. Margery survived him, but upon her death in 1257 her
sister Isabel became sole representative of the family of Montague.
Isabel, at the time of Katherine's death, was still under age and a
royal ward. In 1248 the King granted her wardship to Stephen de
Salines, who sold it next year to her mother Agnes de Montague. Isabel
married three times:
Firstly about 1252, to Ralph de la Haye, who died about 1254. Secondly
to Thomas de Aldham, by whom she had two children, Baldwin and Joan.
Baldwin married Nicholaa, daughter of William de Wintershull, and had
a son, Francis, who died without issue, while Joan married John de St.
Clare. Thomas de Aldham died 11th December, 1275, and within three
years of his death Isabel had married Richard de Pevensey, who was
steward of the Queen's honour of Aquila, and Sheriff of Sussex from
1285 to 1287. Isabel died at the end of August, 1285, her son and
heir, Baldwin de Aldham, being at that time just over 23.
See: Sussex Archaeological Collections, Vol. 57 (1915) L F Salzman,
"Some Sussex Domesday Tenants, Alvared Pincera and His Descendants"
http://www.archive.org/details/sussexarchaeolog57suss
Regards,
John
Douglas Richardson
< A small correction to my previous post. I wrote "After her death,
< Ralph [de la Haye] married secondly Isabel, daughter of John de
< Montacute (d. 1228) "
<
< This is incorrect. Isabel was the daughter of William Montague,
< younger brother of John Montague. Here are a few more details about
< her.
<
< John de Montague died in 1227 or 1228, leaving a daughter Katherine,
< underage. Katherine de Montague died childless about the beginning
of
< 1244.
<
< William de Montague died about 1238, leaving two daughters, Margaret
< or Margery, and Isabel, a minor. Margaret and Isabel, thus became
co-
< heirs of all the Montague estates. Margery was already the wife of
Sir
< William de Echingham; he died without issue in 1252, his brother
Simon
< being his heir. Margery survived him, but upon her death in 1257 her
< sister Isabel became sole representative of the family of Montague.
<
< Firstly about 1252, to Ralph de la Haye, who died about 1254.
Secondly
< to Thomas de Aldham, by whom she had two children, Baldwin and Joan.
< Baldwin married Nicholaa, daughter of William de Wintershull, and
had
< a son, Francis, who died without issue, while Joan married John de
St.
< Clare. Thomas de Aldham died 11th December, 1275, and within three
< years of his death Isabel had married Richard de Pevensey, who was
< steward of the Queen's honour of Aquila, and Sheriff of Sussex from
< 1285 to 1287. Isabel died at the end of August, 1285, ...
For those interested in such matters, the following is a list of the
17th Century New World immigrants that descend from Isabel de Montagu,
by her 2nd marriage to Thomas de Aldham:
Elizabeth Bosvile, Thomas Dudley, Muriel Gurdon, John Nelson
Douglas Richardson
There appears to be a reference to your Ralph de la Haye (died 1254)
and his wife, Eustacia, in the published book, Thurgarton Cartulary,
by Trevor Foulds. Here are two weblinks which show a snippet view of
the page in question, plus a second one which also refers to a Ralph
de la Haye::
http://books.google.com/books?lr=&id=EGRnAAAAMAAJ&dq=Ralph+Haye+1254&q=Eustacia+haye#search_anchor
You asked about the identity of William de Munchensey, who was termed
"heir" of Ralph de la Haye in 1254 with regard to certain Essex
manors. This man is Sir William de Munchensy, Knt., of Edwardstone,
Lindsey, and Theberton, Suffolk, who died in 1302. He married
Beatrice de Beauchamp, daughter of William de Beauchamp, Knt., of
Bedford, co. Bedfordshire. William and Beatrice are covered by my
book, Plantagenet Ancestry (1st ed., 2004).
Sir William de Munchensy's parents were William de Munchensy, of
Edwardstone and Lindsey, Suffolk, by Joan, daughter and heiress of
Geoffrey de Creke, Knt. As such, I don't know how Ralph de la Haye
was kin to Sir William de Munchensy. I ve seen at least one statement
in print which referred to Sir William de Munchensy as Ralph de la
Haye's cousin. That may or may not be true.
Since it seems clear that Ralph de la Haye left issue by his 1st wife,
Eustache, it is difficult to see how Sir William de Munchensy was
Ralph de la Haye's heir at all. However, the solution may be that
Ralph de la Haye held these properties only for the term of his life
(for whatever reason) and that the reversion belonged to William de
Munchensy.
Douglas Richardson
DR
Cherryexile
on Joan de Creke in Complete Peerage IX:415.
Apparently this states,
He [William de Munchensy] married Joan, daughter and heir of Geoffrey
DE CREK, which Joan must also have been heir of Ralph de la Hay
(possibly her uncle or grandfather). He was dead by June 1263.
[Complete Peerage IX:415,