Reginald de St. Valery and His Descendants

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The...@aol.com

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Sep 30, 2002, 12:52:24 AM9/30/02
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Sunday, 29 September, 2002


Dear Chris, Cris, et al.,

The ongoing thread re: the Beauchamps of Elmley (later Earls of
Warwick) has stirred up a question as to the pedigree of the family
of St. Valery, of Tetbury, co. Gloucester & c.

The following is how I currently show this family with extensions to 3
generations from Reginald (or Reynold) de St. Valery, with latest
additions from VCH Gloucestershire as cited by Chris Phillips earlier
today (citations below). Your comments, observations and criticism
is welcome as always.

Best regards,

John *

___________________


1 Reginald de St. Valery
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1147[1]

of Tetbury, co. Glocs.

Children: Bernard (-ca1191)

1.1a Bernard de St. Valery*[2]
----------------------------------------
Death: ca 1191[1]

of Tetbury, co. Glocs. & c.

made gifts of land to Oseney Abbey, 1182-1189[3]

called Reginald in other sources[4] (possible confusion with his son)

cf. VCH Gloucestershire 11:264 as to tenure of Tetbury[1]

Spouse: Maud[2], 1st wife

Children: Maud (-1210)
Reginald (-<1189)

Other Spouses Eleanor [Aenor] de Dommart, 2nd wife

1.1a.1 Maud de St. Valery[2]
----------------------------------------
Death: 1210[5]

captured by royal forces in pursuit of her husband; held to
have been starved to death (together with son William) by
order of King John, 1210[6]

Spouse: William de Braose of Abergavenny, Brecon and Bramber
Death: Sep 1211, Corbeil, France[7]
Father: William de Braose (-ca1192)
Mother: Bertha of Hereford

Children: William (-1210)
Margaret (->1254)
Isabella (-<1248)
Giles (-1215)
Reginald (-1228)
Eleanor (->1240)
Lauretta
Bertha

1.1a.1.1 William de Braose
----------------------------------------
Death: 1210[5]

of Bramber and Gower

captured by royal forces in pursuit of his father; held to
have been starved to death by the order of King John[6]

Spouse: Maud de Clare
Father: Richard de Clare (~1162-<1217)
Mother: Amicia of Gloucester (~1160-ca1224)

Children: John (~1197-<1232) of Bramber and Gower
Giles

1.1a.1.2 Margaret de Braose[8]
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1254[9]

Spouse: Walter de Lacy[10], lord of Meath
Death: bef 24 Feb 1240[5]
Father: Hugh de Lacy (-1186)
Mother: Rose de Monmouth
Marr: bef Nov 1200[9]

Children: Giles (Egidia) (->1242)
Gilbert (-<1230)
Petronilla (->1288)
Katherine

1.1a.1.3 Isabella de Braose[11]
----------------------------------------
Death: bef Feb 1248[12]

Spouse: Dafydd ap Llywelyn of Wales, prince of Gwynedd
Birth: ? 1208[13],[14]
Death: 25 Feb 1246, Aber[12]
Father: Llywelyn 'Fawr' [the Great] ap Iorwerth of Wales (~1173-1240)
Mother: Joan of England (-1237)
Marr: 1229[11]

1.1a.1.4 Giles de Braose
----------------------------------------
Death: 17 Nov 1215
Occ: Bishop of Hereford

made Bishop of Hereford by influence of King John, 1200

fled England during the King's campaign against William de
Braose, ca 1209[6]

1.1a.1.5a Reginald de Braose*
----------------------------------------
Death: Jun 1228[5]
Occ: lord of Abergavenny

Lord of Abergavenny

evidently received Tetbury, co. Glocs. (or a moiety thereof)
as part of his restored patrimony or inheritance: VCH
Gloucestershire states in re: Tetbury,
' ...that Reynold, a son of William, had secured his title
by 1221 when he granted part of the manor to Walter Beauchamp;
p. 265 describes this as a confirmation to Walter of a large
estate described as a moiety of Tetbury manor
[citing CP25(1)/73/4, no 20]. '[1]

reestablished in his lordships by King Henry III, 1216/17

Spouse: Grace de Briwere, 1st wife
Father: Sir William de Briwere
Mother: Beatrice de Vaux

Children: William (-1230) of Abergavenny and Brecknock

Other Spouses Gwladys 'Ddu' ferch Llywelyn, 2nd wife

1.1a.1.5b Reginald de Braose* (See above)
----------------------------------------

Spouse: Gwladys 'Ddu' ferch Llywelyn
Birth: ? 1207[14]
Death: 1251[5]
Father: Llywelyn 'Fawr' [the Great] ap Iorwerth of Wales (~1173-1240)
Mother: Joan of England (-1237)
Marr: 1215[13],[14]

Other Spouses Grace de Briwere, 1st wife

1.1a.1.6 Eleanor de Braose[5]
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 26 Jan 1240, d. at Iffley (a recluse)[5]

had as her maritagium the manors of Tetbury and Hampnett
(possession given to her husband Hugh, 17 May 1215)[5]

Spouse: Hugh de Mortimer of Wigmore, co. Hereford
Death: 10 Nov 1227, d.s.p.s.[5]
Father: Roger de Mortimer (-<1214)
Mother: Isabel de Ferrieres (-<1252)
Marr: bef 1210[5]

1.1a.1.7 Lauretta de Braose[15]
----------------------------------------

Spouse: Robert de Beaumont, 4th Earl of Leicester
Death: 21 Oct 1204, d.s.p.[5]
Father: Robert de Beaumont (-1190)
Mother: Petronilla de Grandmesnil (-1212)

1.1a.1.8 Bertha de Braose
----------------------------------------

identified in an inquisition post mortem of 1305, in re: a moiety
of Tetbury, co. Glocs. and other lands:
' "no 1971. Writ to Walter de Gloucestre, escheator south of
Trent. Fyndon. 19
June 33 Edward I. [1305.]
Gloucester.
Inquisition:- Ywelegh. 22 August.
A rent of 14£ in Upton, Dughton, and Tettebury, which John de
Thorndon acquired from William de Bello Campo, sometime earl
of Warwick, is not held of the king immediately but of Peter de
Breouse as mesne lord; because William de Breouse, long since
deceased, who once held the manor of Tettebury together with
the said rent and other tenements belonging to the said manor of
the king in chief by service of a knight's fee, gave the said rent a
hundred and sixty years and more past to William de Bello
Campo, great grandfather of the said earl, and Berta, daughter of
the said William de Brewose, in free marriage.'[1]

Spouse: William de Beauchamp
Death: 1197[16]
Father: William de Beauchamp (-1170)
Mother: NN

Children: Walter (-1236) of Elmley, co. Worcester

1.1a.2 Reginald de St. Valery
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1189, d.v.p.[3]

also called Reynold[3]

1.1b Bernard de St. Valery* (See above)
----------------------------------------

Spouse: Eleanor de Dommart, 2nd wife

Children: Thomas
Bernard (->1182)

Other Spouses Maud

1.1b.1 Thomas de St. Valery[2]
----------------------------------------

of Tetbury, co. Glocs.

'deprived of his estates before 1197'
[C. Phillips, citing VCH Gloucestershire 11: 264][1]

evidently opted for France and retained French lands (or had
same restored) following the Pacification of 1204.

Spouse: Adela de Ponthieu
Death: 1241[17]
Father: Jean I of Ponthieu (-1191)
Mother: Matilda

Children: Aenor (->1250)

1.1b.1.1 Aenor de St. Valery[2]
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 15 Nov 1250[2]

Spouse: Robert III de Dreux, comte de Dreux
Death: 3 Mar 1233[2]
Father: Robert II of Dreux (ca1154-1218)
Mother: Yolande de Coucy (ca1168-1221)

Children: Yolande (-1248)
Jean (-1249)

1.1b.2 Bernard de St. Valery
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1182[18]

alive at the time of his father's gift to Oseney Abbey[3]


1. Chris Phillips, Cristopher Nash, Doug Thompson,
Barbara Watkins and John P. Ravilious, "Re: Maud de Beauchamp,
wife of Robert Marmion," September 25 to 29, 2002, incl. citation
by Chris Phillips of Cal. Inq. Misc., vol. 1, p. 534,
(C. Inq. Misc. File 64. (29.) ), identifying relationship of
William de Beauchamp, Earl of Warwick (d. 1298) to Bertha de
Braose/Breuse, also, VCH Gloucestershire 11:264, as to
relationship of William de Braose, d. 1211, to the family of Maud
de St. Valery and the tenure of Tetbury, co. Glocs.
2. Leo van de Pas, "Parents of Alix de Bourgoyne," Jul 24, 1998,
GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com.
3. Douglas Richardson, "St Valery-Picquiny Connection," Apr 1, 1999,
GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com.
4. Doug Thompson, "Re: de la Haie/Hay," Dec 4 1999,
GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com.
5. "The Complete Peerage," G. E. Cokayne, 1910 -
[microprint, 1982 (Alan Sutton) ], The Complete Peerage of England
Scotland Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom.
6. "King John," W. L. Warren, New Haven: Yale University Press, 1997
(orig. published 1981 in UK, Eyre Methuen Ltd), Yale English
Monarchs series.
7. Todd A. Farmerie, "De Braose," Mar 10, 1997,
GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com.
8. "The Magna Carta Sureties, 1215," Frederick L. Weis, Th. D.,
Gen Pub Co., Baltimore, MD, 5th ed., 1997 (W. L. Sheppard Jr &
David Faris).
9. Timothy Powys-Lybbe, "Re: De Lacy Family - Confusing Two Walters -
Correction," Jan 8, 2001, GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com.
10. Stewart Baldwin, "Oldest Female Line?," Nov 20, 1996,
GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com.
11. "A History of Wales," John Davies, New York: Penguin Press, 1993
(orig. published in Welsh, 1990).
12. "Brewer's British Royalty," David Williamson, Cassell/Wellington
House, 1996.
13. William Addams Reitwiesner, "The Children of Joan, Princess of
North Wales," The Genealogist, Vol. 1, No. 1, (Spring 1980),
p. 80 et seq.
14. John P. Ravilious, "The Betrothal of Gwladys Ddu," Dec 2, 2001,
GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com, part of a thread including posts by
Paul C. Reed, FASG, Douglas Richardson, Ken Finton, Leo van de
Pas and others, original information re: onomastic evidence from
Douglas Richardson, original information re: Annales Prioratus de
Wigornia from Paul Reed.
15. "The Baronage of England," William Dugdale, Norroy King of Arms,
Tho. Newcomb [reprint Georg Verlag, New York], London, 1675
[reprint New York, 1977].
16. Alan B. Wilson, "Beauchamps of Salwarpe," January 11, 1999, paper
copy: library of John Ravilious, cites Sanders, English Baronies
pp. 75-6 as to ancestry of Beauchamp, of Salwarpe; also CP; and
Turton,, Plantagenet Ancestry, pp. 97, 117.
17. Dave Utz, "Parents, etc. of Alix of Bourgogne," Jul 28, 1998,
GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com.
18. Leo van de Pas, "'Stretched Generations' Records," Dec 22, 1998,
GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com.

* John P. Ravilious

Rosie Bevan

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Sep 30, 2002, 1:51:35 AM9/30/02
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Dear John

Keats -Rohan pushes the St Valery ascent further in DP: 453 and DD:698 as
below.

1.Gilbert=daughter Richard III and Papia 'de Envermeu' (acc to Ord. Vit.)
2.Bernard de Sancto Walerico
3.Walter de St Valery, Domesday holder of lands in Gloucs.=Elisabeth, sister
of Miles de Montlhery
4.Bernard de St Valery
5.Rainald de St Valery, Steward of Normandy 1146-1153
6.Bernard de St Valery=Matilda (Maud) d.c. 1151
7.Rainald de St Valery d.s.v.p.
7.Thomas de St Valery successor of his father
Bernard married secondly Aanor
7.Henry de St Valery

However, K-R does not mention Maud de St Valery, which seems a significant
omission. Maud is mentioned in various monkish chronicles - by Mathew of
Paris and Mathew of Westminster - I believe. K-R does not mention anything
from the Oseney or Eynsham cartulary in connection with the St Valery
tenancy of the barony of Beckley in Oxfordshire. I wonder if this is a case
of an assumed connection because of the Tetbury land transfer to the Braose
family. Perhaps the annals of Margam pinpoints her parentage?

Cheers

Rosie

Todd A. Farmerie

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Sep 30, 2002, 5:38:17 AM9/30/02
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Rosie Bevan wrote:

> Dear John
>
> Keats -Rohan pushes the St Valery ascent further in DP: 453 and DD:698 as
> below.
>
> 1.Gilbert=daughter Richard III and Papia 'de Envermeu' (acc to Ord. Vit.)


There seems to be conflicting information regarding this
generation. I don't have access to Orderic, but Stasser quotes
some relevant texts (although he is using a different edition
than that used in DP). Apparently there are three references to
this relationship:

Robert de Torigny wrote: "Successit ei filius ejus Ricardus
tercius. Hic genuit Nicolaum, postea abbatem Sancti Audoeni, et
duas filias, Papiam videlicet uxorum Walterii de Sancto Walerico,
et Aeliz, uxorem Ranulfi vicecomitis de Baiocis."

Orderic wrote: "Gualterius comes de Sancto Gualerico, Ricardi
junioris, ducis Normannorum, ex filia nomine Papia, nepos . . ."

and elsewhere that Papia married "Guilbertus cognomen Advocatus
de Sancto Gualerico"

Apparently it is this last quote from which KR draws her account,
as the other two either fail to name the husband or call him
Walter. One wonders if in this case, Robert was following
Orderic's first entry, but mistakenly confused the nepos with the
-in-law (perhaps simply the alliteration between Gualterius and
Gualerico led to a slip).

Published reconstructions likewise disagree on the father of
Papia. I have seen Papia, wife of Gilbert(/Walter) portrayed as
both sister and daughter of Richard II, as well as KR's
preference (and Robert's explicit claim), niece. And yet, this
is not perfectly true, as in naming the mother as Papia 'of
Envermeu', KR is certainly refering to the second wife of Richard
II, of whom Douglas long ago said "About Papia little has been
discovered, but a charter by her step-son, Robert I, suggests
that she came from Envermeu, being daughter of a certain
Richildis by a father whose name is unknown." This is clearly a
mistake - either this girl was child of Richard II and Papia of
Envermeu, or else she was daughter of Richard III and not of
Papia (or is she suggesting that the Papia named in the charter
of Duke Robert was his brother's mistress and not his
step-mother?). Chronology fails to distinguish the latter two
possibilities, as a daughter of Richard II by his wife Papia
would have been of similar age to a daughter of Richard III.
Robert is certainly unambiguous, and Orderic appears to intend
the same in his "ex filia nomine Papia, nepos", yet the
chronology seems a bit long for Walter, the Domesday tennant, to
be great-grandson of Richard III (a chronology in no way repaired
by making her daughter of Richard II, born about the same time).

Does anyone have access to the exact quote in the second Orderic
reference? or any other primary record that may be relevant?

taf

The...@aol.com

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Sep 30, 2002, 7:13:20 AM9/30/02
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Monday, 30 September, 2002


Dear Rosie, Todd, et al.,

Thanks greatly for the information from DD, and the cites re: the family
de St. Valery and its (alleged) relationship to the Dukes of Normandy. Added
to the mix, as a son of Papia, was one Richard of Hugleville (possibly
otherwise known as Richard d'Auffay), re: whom Douglas wrote, concerning a
rebellion in Normandy in 1052,

' In what is now the small village of Hugleville,
some twelve miles south of Arques, there was
established a certain Richard who was related to
the ducal house since his mother, Papia, who had
married Gulbert, advocatus of Saint-Valery, was
herself a daughter of Duke Richard III. ' [1]

Added to the mix, Douglas also wrote of 'Richard's daughter', that 'The
full brother of this girl was Gulbert of Auffay, who was present at the
battle of Hastings, founded the abbey of Auffay in 1079, and died 14 or 15
August 1087' [Douglas, p. 65, note 7]. A strong possibility: that K-R
confused this Gulbert d'Auffay, alleged son of Richard III, as the husband of
Papia his sister [perish the thought] who was married to Walter de St.
Valery. This then opens the way for Richard d'Auffay, and presumably Walter
de St. Valery, to appear as the issue of Papia.

As to the chronology, Richard d'Auffay is indicated as being personally
active on behalf of Duke William in 1052; this would seem to indicate his
being born say 1034 or before, which should certainly place his mother's
birth some time before 1020 and probably earlier (say 1000-1010 ?).

Todd, you had asked re: cites concerning Papia and the St. Valery family.
Douglas, besides the Ordericus Vitalis quotes you've provided, cites also:

' Robert de Torigni (ed. Delisle), vol. I,
pp. 33-34'

This would be, from his bibliography:

~ Robert of Torigny, Chronique de Robert de Torigni
suivie de divers opuscules historiques de cet
auteur, ed. L. Delisle, 2 vols. (SHN, 1872, 1873)

Cheers,

John *


* John P. Ravilious

NOTES

[1] Douglas, D.C., William the Conqueror (Berkeley:
UC Press, 1964), p. 65.

The...@aol.com

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Sep 30, 2002, 12:39:27 PM9/30/02
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Monday, 30 September, 2002


Dear Rosie,

I believe that Tetbury (or a moiety thereof) was the maritagium of Maud de St. Valery - she was not an heiress (unless possibly of her mother).

Beckley was one of the St. Valery lands that passed into the hands of Thomas de St. Valery, noted in my post as the son and heir of Bernard de St. Valery by his (evidently) 2nd wife Aenor or Eleanor de Dommart. Concerning the subsequent history of Beckley, I find the following details:


' Reynold of St. Valery supported Empress Maud against King Stephen in the civil wars, and in 1158 went on crusade. He died probably in 1166-7 and was succeeded by his eldest son Bernard, who in 1166-7 paid a fine for livery of Beckley and Horton. He seems to have died shortly after 1191, and was succeeded by his second son Thomas, who paid a relief in 1191--2. Not long afterwards, Beckley and Horton, along with his other lands, were seized by the king, and in 1196-7 they appear among the escheats, no doubt as a consequence of Thomas's support of Philip Augustus in Normandy. Between 1198 and 1215 Thomas changed sides at least three times, alternately regaining and forfeiting his English lands. He finally made his peace with King John in 1215 and died early in 1219 leaving as his heiress his only daughter Annora.
In 1210 or 1211 Annora had married Robert de Dreux, eldest son of Count Robert II o£ Dreux, and brother of Peter de Dreux later Duke of Brittany. Robert consistently supported Philip Augustus against King John, but made his peace with Henry III in 1217. He became Count of Dress in 1218 and in February 1219 was awarded the lands that Thomas of St. Valery had held in England. By the end of 1226, as he had again chosen to side with France, Henry III seized all his English lands.
In 1227 Henry III granted all Robert de Dreux's English lands to his brother, Richard of Cornwall. The grant was confirmed by charter to 1231. Under Richard of Cornwall, Beckley, as a part of the honor of St. Valery, was the most important of the five demesne manors of the honor in Oxfordshire‑the others being Willaston, Blackthorn with Ambrosden, Asthall, and Yarnton; the honor was sometimes called 'of St. Valery of Beckley'; or simply `of Beckley'.' Richard's tenure at Beckley suffered one brief interruption after his capture by the Montfortiana at Lewes in 1264, but he recovered his lands in 1265 after Evesham Richard died in 1272 and was succeeded by his eldest surviving son, Edmund, who held the manor of St Valery, including Beckley and Horton for 28 years.
He died in 1300, leaving no children, and his cousin, King Edward I, inherited his lands. Beckley and Horton were among the lands which Edward I granted for life to Roger Bigod, Earl of Norfolk. In 1302, on Roger's death in 1306 they reverted to the Crown.
In 1308 Edward II gave Beckley to Hugh Despenser the elder, who later in the same year, leased the manor for life to his follower Sir John de Hadlow, who had been keeper of the manor and park in 1307. When the honor o£ St. Valery was conferred upon Piers Gaveston in 1309, Beckley was excluded. ' [1]


The authors used VCH Oxfordshire amongst their sources, but beyond this I have not yet read the entire webpage. Given that Beckley lands later wound up in Buckinghamshire, possibly VCH carries other details there as well.

Hope this is helpful.

Cheers,

John *

NOTES

[1] A HISTORY OF HORTON CUM STUDLEY , from
http://oxfordconsultants.tripod.com/
a_history_of_horton_cum_studley.htm.

* John P. Ravilious

Stewart Baldwin

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Sep 30, 2002, 11:48:49 PM9/30/02
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On Mon, 30 Sep 2002 03:38:17 -0600, "Todd A. Farmerie"
<farm...@interfold.com> wrote:

>Does anyone have access to the exact quote in the second Orderic
>reference?

There is a nice 6 volume parallel Latin-English edition of Orderic by
Chibnall. Unfortunately, the passage you ask for is not in the three
volumes of Chibnall's edition to which I have access (vols. 1, 5, 6),
so I had to take the Latin below from Migne vol. 188 col. 463, and the
English from Forester's 1853-6 translation (vol. 2, p. 266).

"Nunc de generositate Alfagensium neroum, et moribus eorum libet
parumper adnotare. Gulbertus, cognomento Advocatus de Sancto
Gualerico, filiam Richardi ducis uxorem duxit; ex qua Bernardum,
patrem Gualterii de Sancto-Gualerico, et Richardum de Huglevilla
genuit. Richardus autem duci Normanniæ, avunculo videlicit suo, diu
militavit, cujus dono nobilem Adam, Herluini senis de Huglevilla
relictam, cum toto patrimonio ejus accepit. ..."

It is now my intention to give some account of the origin of the lords
of Aufay and their acts. Gilbert, surnamed the Advocate of St.
Valeri, married a daughter of Duke Richard, by whom he had Bernard,
father of Walter de St. Valery and Richard Heugleville. Richard was
long employed in the military service of his uncle, Richard, duke of
Normandy, from whom he received in marriage the noble Ada, widow of
the elder Herluin of Heugleville, with all her inheritance. ...

[Note: Forester's wording is careless in the sentence giving the
parentage of Richard de Heugleville, making it look as if he might
have been Bernard's son. However, since "Richardum" and "Bernardum"
are both in the accusative, and "Gualterii" is in the genetive, the
"et" ("and") must link Bernard and Richard, so that Richard was a
brother (and not son) of Bernard (at least according to this passage
of Orderic).]

Stewart Baldwin

Todd A. Farmerie

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Oct 1, 2002, 2:39:04 AM10/1/02
to
The...@aol.com wrote:

> Monday, 30 September, 2002
>
>
> Dear Rosie, Todd, et al.,
>
> Thanks greatly for the information from DD, and the cites re: the family
> de St. Valery and its (alleged) relationship to the Dukes of Normandy. Added
> to the mix, as a son of Papia, was one Richard of Hugleville (possibly
> otherwise known as Richard d'Auffay), re: whom Douglas wrote, concerning a
> rebellion in Normandy in 1052,
>
> ' In what is now the small village of Hugleville,
> some twelve miles south of Arques, there was
> established a certain Richard who was related to
> the ducal house since his mother, Papia, who had
> married Gulbert, advocatus of Saint-Valery, was
> herself a daughter of Duke Richard III. ' [1]
>
> Added to the mix, Douglas also wrote of 'Richard's daughter', that 'The
> full brother of this girl was Gulbert of Auffay, who was present at the
> battle of Hastings, founded the abbey of Auffay in 1079, and died 14 or 15
> August 1087' [Douglas, p. 65, note 7]. A strong possibility: that K-R
> confused this Gulbert d'Auffay, alleged son of Richard III, as the husband of
> Papia his sister [perish the thought] who was married to Walter de St.
> Valery. This then opens the way for Richard d'Auffay, and presumably Walter
> de St. Valery, to appear as the issue of Papia.

I think somewhere the person to whom "Richard's sister" refers
has become confused. Richard III had no son Gulbert. Certainly
the intended pedigree is (material in parentheses is from
Sheppard/Weis, Orderic, and KR):

Richard III [actually Richard I - see my other post]
|
|
|
Papia(=Gulbert de St. Valery, fl. 1011)
|
|(-----------------------------|)
| (|)
Richard, fl. (1025-)1052 (Bernard)
| (|)
| (|)
|----------------| (|)
(Geoffrey=Ada) Gulbert (Walter)
(|)"Richard's of Auffay (fl. 1086
(|) daughter" fl. 1079 -1096)
(|) d. 1087
(Bernard, d. 1093)
(de Neufmarche)


taf

Todd A. Farmerie

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Oct 1, 2002, 2:39:12 AM10/1/02
to
Stewart Baldwin wrote:

> so I had to take the Latin below from Migne vol. 188 col. 463, and the
> English from Forester's 1853-6 translation (vol. 2, p. 266).
>
> "Nunc de generositate Alfagensium neroum, et moribus eorum libet
> parumper adnotare. Gulbertus, cognomento Advocatus de Sancto
> Gualerico, filiam Richardi ducis uxorem duxit; ex qua Bernardum,
> patrem Gualterii de Sancto-Gualerico, et Richardum de Huglevilla
> genuit. Richardus autem duci Normanniæ, avunculo videlicit suo, diu
> militavit, cujus dono nobilem Adam, Herluini senis de Huglevilla
> relictam, cum toto patrimonio ejus accepit. ..."
>
> It is now my intention to give some account of the origin of the lords
> of Aufay and their acts. Gilbert, surnamed the Advocate of St.
> Valeri, married a daughter of Duke Richard, by whom he had Bernard,
> father of Walter de St. Valery and Richard Heugleville. Richard was
> long employed in the military service of his uncle, Richard, duke of
> Normandy, from whom he received in marriage the noble Ada, widow of
> the elder Herluin of Heugleville, with all her inheritance. ...

So it is clear that Orderic makes Richard de Huglevilla the
maternal nephew of one Duke Richard, and daughter of another.
(This is certainly the item to which KR refers, as it names the
husband as Gilbert, and does not name the mother, but it is
overinterpreting (and clearly wrong) to specify that the parents
are either Richard III or Papia of Envermeu.) Thus:

Richard
|-----------|----------------|
Richard Gulbert=N
|
|---------------| 2 1
Bernard Richard=Ada=Herluin
|
Walter


Returning to his other quote:

"Gualterius comes de Sancto Gualerico, Ricardi junioris, ducis
Normannorum, ex filia nomine Papia, nepos . . ."

Walter, Count of St. Valery, 'nepos', [via a daughter] Papia, of
Richard 'junioris', Duke of Normandy.

This is somewhat ambiguous. We all know nepos can be grandfather
or nephew, while literally, "ex filia" would meant 'through a
daughter', but ? perhaps could be 'through a female', and Richard
'junioris' is not necessarily clear as to which Richard is in
mind. If we assume that Orderic is consistant, then we have to
conclude that either 'through a female' is intended, or else
Richard II is the Duke in question (does "Richard junioris"
appear anywhere else that would enable his identification?)

|---------------------?
Richard 'junioris' ?
|---------------------?
Papia
|
\|/
V
Walter

In summary then:

Richard
|--------|---------------|
Richard Gulbert=Papia
|
|---------------| 2 1
Bernard Richard=Ada=Herluin
|
Walter


Given Orderic alone, this seems the most likely reconstruction.

However, as I posted this morning, Robert of Torigny differs with
this:

"Successit ei filius ejus Ricardus tercius. Hic genuit Nicolaum,
postea abbatem Sancti Audoeni, et duas filias, Papiam videlicet
uxorum Walterii de Sancto Walerico, et Aeliz, uxorem Ranulfi
vicecomitis de Baiocis."

(Roughly:) He was succeeded by his son Richard III. To him was
born Nicholas, who became abbot of St. Ouen, and two daughters,
Papia that married Walter de St. Valery and Alice, married to
Ranulf, Vicount of Bayeux. Thus:

(Richard II)
|
Richard III
|
|------------------|-------------------|
Nicholas Walter=Papia Ranulf=Alice

We know that Robert had access to some of the same sources as
Orderic (specifically, they both made their own interpolations
into William of Jumieges), and it would not surprise me if his
version represents a confused account of either Orderic's first
(second here) entry, or of Orderic's source for that statement.
(As I already suggested, Torigny's account shares with this
Orderic entry a Duke Richard related "ex filia" Papia to a Walter
of St. Valery. One way or another, assuming that the same Papia
is intended, the identification of Richard III as father is flawed.

I say this because of the chronology. According to AR7
(Weis/Sheppard), Richard de Hugleville was active in 1025, as
well as his 1052 participation mentioned earlier today by John.
This puts his birth no later than, say, 1009, which is just 12
years after Richard III (and likewise, 11 years before Richard II
married Papia). Likewise, he was probably the younger son (based
on how Orderic lists them, and his need to be given Hugleville,
while Bernard seems to have inherited the family posessions at
St. Valery). Thus Gulbert and Papia must have married by about
1005. This is not inconsistant with another date given by AR7,
that Gulbert is found in a document of 1011. This would put
Papia's birth no later than, say, 990. The question, then, is
not whether Papia was daughter of Richard III or of Richard II
and Papia of Envermeu, but rather "what were they thinking?"
Richard II, himself born 978, he could not have been father of a
girl born 990 or before, nor grandfather of a man active in 1025.
(FWIW, AR7 cites Searle's Predatory kinship and Douglas'
William the C for this information. I would appreciate someone
confirming these dates, presumably from Searle.)

Orderic's Richard 'junioris' _must_ have been Richard II, and his
'ex filia' _must_ have meant via a female line, and his 'nepos'
must mean (grand-)nephew, else this entire entry must be rejected
on chronological grounds.


1. Richard I, Duke of Normandy had, presumably by some mistress
other than Gunnora, a daughter:

2. Papia, b. say 980, m. Gulbert, Advocate of St. Valery, fl. 1011.
a. Bernard de St. Valery, b. say 1003, presum. d. bef 1086
i. Walter de St. Valery, b. say 1035, fl. 1096
b. Richard

3. Richard 'de Hugleville', b. say 1005, fl. 1025, 1052, m. Ada,
wid. Herluin de Hugleville.

4. Gulbert d'Auffay, b. say 1030, d. 1087.


taf

D. Spencer Hines

unread,
Oct 1, 2002, 2:49:01 AM10/1/02
to
All very speculative ---- and just concerning a bastard line.

Small beer......Small beer indeed....

Grasping at straws....

Deus Vult.

"It may be said that, thanks to the 'clercs', humanity did evil for two
thousand years, but honoured good. This contradiction was an honour to
the human species, and formed the rift whereby civilisation slipped into
the world." "La Trahison des clercs" [The Treason of the Intellectuals]
(1927) Julien Benda (1867-1956)

Ubique Quo Fas Et Gloria Ducunt --- Motto of the Royal Artillery

All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly. All original
material contained herein is copyright and property of the author. It
may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an attribution
to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly given, in
writing.
------------------

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor.

"Todd A. Farmerie" <farm...@interfold.com> wrote in message
news:3D994310...@interfold.com...

The...@aol.com

unread,
Oct 1, 2002, 7:27:33 AM10/1/02
to
Tuesday, 1 October, 2002


Dear Todd, Stewart, Rosie, et al.,

Many thanks for the sources (both citations and translations) and
analyses provided. This certainly moves us toward an acceptable solution to
the St. Valery pedigree and the relationship of that family to the dukes of
Normandy.

It is interesting that Richard II's second wife (and presumably former
mistress, based on Norman predilection if not custom) was Papia; certainly a
good basis for ascribing the wife of St. Valery of the same name as a
daughter of descendant of Richard II. I presume this is either closely
related to the name Poppa, or is actually the same name? This would then
indicate that Papia, daughter of Richard I, had been given the name of her
paternal great-grandmother, the wife of Rolf/Hrolf, progenitor of the Norman
ducal line.

That being said, Todd, I think you've delivered an excellent
reconstruction of this family based on the sources.

Best regards,

Hal Bradley

unread,
Oct 1, 2002, 12:14:29 PM10/1/02
to
Is there a connection between this St. Valery family and Lorette de St.
Valery, wife of Aleaure de Fontaines? Moriarty in NEHGR 106:281 mentions
that the ancestry of the Fountaines can be found in the "Dict. de la
Noblesse of Cheneye des Bois (vol. VIII, p. 242)." However, I have not been
able to locate this source. Does anyone have access to this source? If so,
is there a connection to the St. Valery family of this thread? Thank you.

Hal Bradley

Rosie Bevan

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Oct 1, 2002, 9:54:43 PM10/1/02
to
Dear Brad

Keats-Rohan (DD ; 698) places Laura as daughter of Rainauld de St Valery,
Steward of Normany who d. shortly after 1164. She was married first to John,
Count of Ponthieu by whom she was repudiated, and secondly Alleaume de
Fontaines.

Laura's other siblings were
-Bernard
-Walter, archdeacon of Rouen d.1171
-Guy
-NN, mother of Gerard II de Picquigny

Cheers

Rosie

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