The Merovingian are among us !!!
James P. Robinson III
Yes, I am familiar with this book, as are many of this list. I believe I
speak for all interested in genealogy based in fact when I say that the book
is a work of quite interesting fiction. By and large, the genealogies in
the book are created out of thin air. DO NOT RELY ON IT!
Jim
At 03:22 AM 11/24/96 +0100, Yoshiko & Laurent OHIER wrote:
>Bonjour a tous,
>
> 4 years ago, I read a book in which is given a quite "strange"
>lineage. This book is " The holy blood and the Holy Grail" by Michael
>Baigent, Richard Leigh and Henry Lincoln, publisher: Jonathan Cape Ltd,
>London. (I read the french version).
BIG SNIP
>Has anyone among you heard of or read this book ? The conclusions of these
>3 guys are quite amazing ! What do you think of that ? I would be
>interested in reading your reactions...
>
>
>Laurent OHIER
>ohi...@worldnet.fr
>
>
--
***************************************************************************
James P. Robinson, III
jpro...@ix.netcom.com
****************************************************************************
Yoshiko & Laurent OHIER
Bonjour a tous,
4 years ago, I read a book in which is given a quite "strange"
lineage. This book is " The holy blood and the Holy Grail" by Michael
Baigent, Richard Leigh and Henry Lincoln, publisher: Jonathan Cape Ltd,
London. (I read the french version).
The subject of this book is to find what is hidden behind the
secret of Rennes-Le-Chateau (France), the treasure of the Templars, the
holy grail...
It is presented as a long investigation. Then the authors declare
having found a secret about the Merovingian lineage thanks to an
"authentic" secret document.
This document gives a complete genealogy of the PLANTARD family,
still existing now, who is in direct line with the Merovingian.
I summary now what they mention:
*Merovee, Frank chieftain of Sicambrian origin in 417. m. Siegse . their
son is:
*Merovee "the young" King of the Franks 448-458, (adopted by the 2nd
husband of Siegse, Clodion VI, King of Cambrai (438-448), from Salian
origin). His son is:
*Childeric Ier, King of the Franks 458-496. His son is:
*Clovis Ier, King of the Franks 456-511. m. Clotilde. Their son is:
*Clotaire Ier, King of Soissons 511, king of the Franks 558.His son is:
*Chilperic Ier, King of Soissons 561-584, m. Fredegonde. Their son is:
*Clotaire II, King of the Franks 584-628. His son is:
*Dagobert Ier, King of Austrasia 622-639. king of the Franks 632-639. His
son is:
*Sigisbert III, king od Austrasia 632-656. m. Immachilde. Their son is:
*Dagobert II, king of Austrasia 674-679. He married first 666 Mathilda (of
Irish origin) and second 671 Gisele de Rhedae (now Rennes le Chateau)
653-676, daughter of Bera II Count of Rhedae and Gislica sister of Wamba
King of the Wisigoths. Bera II is the son of Bera Ier, son of Sigonius
"Prefet des Gaules" and brother of Annemundus bishop of Lyon 653. Gislica
is the daughter of Tulca, 1st count of Rhedae and King of the
Wisigoths.Their son is:
*Sigisbert IV 676-758, Count of Rhedae. From him exists the new lineage
called " Plant-Ard". m. Magdala, Heiress of Narbonne and Carcassone. Their
son is:
*Sigisbert V ca.695 -ca.768, Count of Rhedae. He has 2 sons: the first on
is Thierry count of Narbonne, father of St Guillaume de Gellone (ancestor
of Aquitania dukes). The second one is:
*Bera III 715-770, Count of Rhedae, m. Olba or Alda. Their son is:
*Guillaume, count of Rhedae. He's got 2 sons: Oliba (who m. Richilde and
who has 2 sons Oliba Count of Carcassone and Acfred Count of Limoux (870),
Narbonne (877) and Carcassone (881)) and:
*Bera IV 755-813, founder of The abbey of Alet, m. Romille. Their son is:
*Argila 775-836 Count of Rhedae, m. Reverge. Their son is:
*Bera V 794-860 Count of Rhedae. He has 2 sons: Bernard "Planta-Velu" or
"Planta-Pilus" Count of Limoux d.877 founder of the Aquitania Duche, and:
*Hilderic Ier d.867, Count of Rhedae. His son is:
*Sigisbert VI "Prince Ursus" d.884 or 885, Last Merovingian count of
Rhedae, m.Rotilde, dau. of Charles II of France. He tries to revolt against
Louis II of France but Fails. He must escape in Brittany. Their son is:
*Guillaume II d.914, m.Idoine. He escapes in England in 914 because of the
Viking invaders in Brittany. They have 3 kids: Berra "The Young" who will
stay in England, Gemege (female) Who marry Arnaud count of Poher ( They
have a son: Mathuedoi b.897 count of Poher who m. Havoise dau. of Alain III
of Brittany, their son is Alain IV 917-952 duke of Brittany) and:
*Guillaume III 874-936. His son is:
*Arnaud d.952. He comes back to Brittany in 939 with Mathuedoi. His son is:
*Bera VI d.975, architect in england. His descent "practised the art of
building". his son is:
*Sigisbert VII d.978/982. His daughter is Agnes who marry Hugues II de
Lusignan. His son is:
*Hugues Ier 951-971 m. Ste Anna, coming from Greece. Their son is:
*Jean Ier d.1020 m. Isabelle. They have 2 sons, Jean II and Hugues. Hugues
d.1015 m. Agnes(d.1058), dau. of Eustache count of Jumieges (she marry in a
second marriage Ernicule (d.1041) Count of Boulogne). Their son is Eustache
Ier count of Boulogne b.1010, adopted by Ernicule of Boulogne, m.Mahaut de
Louvain; their son is Eustache II d.1081, count of Boulogne, etc...The
other son:
*Jean II d.1054 m. Anne. Their son is:
*Jean III d.1068/1072 m. Beatrice of Lorraine, dau. of Gozelon duke of
Haute-Lorraine(d.1044) and sister of Pope Etienne IX.
From Jean III, the lineage continues (but not given in the book) to:
*Jean VI des Plantard, b.1130, m.1156 Idoine de Gisors 1135-1191 dau. of
Hugues II 1090-1142 lord of Gisors, and sister of Jean de Gisors 1133-1220
Lord of Gisors, founder of th "Rose-Croix" in 1188 and Great Master of the
"Prieure de Sion" 1266.
The last descent of this lineage "Plantard" is according to this book
Pierre Plantard de Saint-Clair and his son Thomas (Thomas was a kid when
the book was written in the early 80's).
In conclusion, Godefroy de Bouillon duke of Lorraine and king of Jerusalem
would be an authentic Merovingian, and the Merovingian could be the
oldest lineage in Europe, still represented !!!!!!!
And I don't talk about the origin of the Merovingian ( Jesus Christ himself
!) What a scoop !
Todd A. Farmerie
Yoshiko & Laurent OHIER wrote:
>
> lineage. This book is " The holy blood and the Holy Grail" by Michael
> Baigent, Richard Leigh and Henry Lincoln, publisher: Jonathan Cape Ltd,
> London. (I read the french version).
>
Good. Someone finally posts the line, so it can be addressed.
> *Merovee, Frank chieftain of Sicambrian origin in 417. m. Siegse . their
> son is:
As far as I know, there is no good evidence for any parentage for King
Merovee (as he is called here. I have seen Clodio in places, but doubt
it. That his father was Merovee is news to me.
> *Merovee "the young" King of the Franks 448-458, (adopted by the 2nd
> husband of Siegse, Clodion VI, King of Cambrai (438-448), from Salian
> origin). His son is:
> *Childeric Ier, King of the Franks 458-496. His son is:
> *Clovis Ier, King of the Franks 456-511. m. Clotilde. Their son is:
> *Clotaire Ier, King of Soissons 511, king of the Franks 558.His son is:
> *Chilperic Ier, King of Soissons 561-584, m. Fredegonde. Their son is:
> *Clotaire II, King of the Franks 584-628. His son is:
> *Dagobert Ier, King of Austrasia 622-639. king of the Franks 632-639. His
> son is:
> *Sigisbert III, king od Austrasia 632-656. m. Immachilde. Their son is:
> *Dagobert II, king of Austrasia 674-679. He married first 666 Mathilda (of
> Irish origin) and second 671 Gisele de Rhedae (now Rennes le Chateau)
> 653-676, daughter of Bera II Count of Rhedae and Gislica sister of Wamba
> King of the Wisigoths. Bera II is the son of Bera Ier, son of Sigonius
> "Prefet des Gaules" and brother of Annemundus bishop of Lyon 653. Gislica
> is the daughter of Tulca, 1st count of Rhedae and King of the
> Wisigoths.Their son is:
He had no son of this (or as far as I know, any other) name. Dag II is
a favorite Merovingian, to whom most attempts I have seen are traced.
> *Sigisbert IV 676-758, Count of Rhedae. From him exists the new lineage
> called " Plant-Ard". m. Magdala, Heiress of Narbonne and Carcassone. Their
> son is:
There is no evidence this person ever existed.
> *Sigisbert V ca.695 -ca.768, Count of Rhedae. He has 2 sons: the first on
> is Thierry count of Narbonne, father of St Guillaume de Gellone (ancestor
> of Aquitania dukes). The second one is:
Ditto. The father if Thierry is a matter of HOT debate, but most
traditional Merovingian Claims trace through his mother.
> *Bera III 715-770, Count of Rhedae, m. Olba or Alda. Their son is:
There is no evidence that theis person ever existed.
> *Guillaume, count of Rhedae. He's got 2 sons: Oliba (who m. Richilde and
> who has 2 sons Oliba Count of Carcassone and Acfred Count of Limoux (870),
> Narbonne (877) and Carcassone (881)) and:
This person is probably the result of confusion with St.Guillaume named
above. The parentage of Oliba is well known, and not as given here.
> *Bera IV 755-813, founder of The abbey of Alet, m. Romille. Their son is:
No evidence.
> *Argila 775-836 Count of Rhedae, m. Reverge. Their son is:
Ditto.
> *Bera V 794-860 Count of Rhedae. He has 2 sons: Bernard "Planta-Velu" or
> "Planta-Pilus" Count of Limoux d.877 founder of the Aquitania Duche, and:
Bernard "Planta-Velu" has other parents. No evidence that this Bera
ever existed.
> *Hilderic Ier d.867, Count of Rhedae. His son is:
No Evidence.
> *Sigisbert VI "Prince Ursus" d.884 or 885, Last Merovingian count of
> Rhedae, m.Rotilde, dau. of Charles II of France. He tries to revolt against
> Louis II of France but Fails. He must escape in Brittany. Their son is:
No daughter of Charles II married a Sigisbert.
> *Guillaume II d.914, m.Idoine. He escapes in England in 914 because of the
> Viking invaders in Brittany. They have 3 kids: Berra "The Young" who will
> stay in England, Gemege (female) Who marry Arnaud count of Poher ( They
> have a son: Mathuedoi b.897 count of Poher who m. Havoise dau. of Alain III
> of Brittany, their son is Alain IV 917-952 duke of Brittany) and:
No evidence.
> *Guillaume III 874-936. His son is:
No evidence.
> *Arnaud d.952. He comes back to Brittany in 939 with Mathuedoi. His son is:
No evidence.
> *Bera VI d.975, architect in england. His descent "practised the art of
> building". his son is:
No evidence. The "architect" thing makes this source sound like it is
of Masonic origin, which is not unlikely since they went for the Templar
bit, and such lineages.
> *Sigisbert VII d.978/982. His daughter is Agnes who marry Hugues II de
> Lusignan. His son is:
As far as i know, the wife of Hugh II is unknown. No evidence.
> *Hugues Ier 951-971 m. Ste Anna, coming from Greece. Their son is:
The chronology is somewhat short in this stretch.
> *Jean Ier d.1020 m. Isabelle. They have 2 sons, Jean II and Hugues. Hugues
> d.1015 m. Agnes(d.1058), dau. of Eustache count of Jumieges (she marry in a
> second marriage Ernicule (d.1041) Count of Boulogne). Their son is Eustache
> Ier count of Boulogne b.1010, adopted by Ernicule of Boulogne, m.Mahaut de
> Louvain; their son is Eustache II d.1081, count of Boulogne, etc...The
> other son:
This link to Boulogne is clearly invented to include the great crusader
Godfrey of Boulogne, Protector of the Holy Sepulcre.
> *Jean II d.1054 m. Anne. Their son is:
> *Jean III d.1068/1072 m. Beatrice of Lorraine, dau. of Gozelon duke of
> Haute-Lorraine(d.1044) and sister of Pope Etienne IX.
>
As far as I know, no daughter of Gozelon is known to have married a
Jean.
> From Jean III, the lineage continues (but not given in the book) to:
> *Jean VI des Plantard, b.1130, m.1156 Idoine de Gisors 1135-1191 dau. of
> Hugues II 1090-1142 lord of Gisors, and sister of Jean de Gisors 1133-1220
> Lord of Gisors, founder of th "Rose-Croix" in 1188 and Great Master of the
> "Prieure de Sion" 1266.
Ah yes, let's not leave out the Rosy Cross.
> Has anyone among you heard of or read this book ? The conclusions of these
> 3 guys are quite amazing ! What do you think of that ? I would be
> interested in reading your reactions...
This is standard BS. The long line of people who never appear in
contemporary documents, but who are relatives of a whole lot of
unrelated famous people and lineages is indicative of pure invention.
The Templar, Masonic, and Rosicrutian overtones suggest it comes out of
a particular (and peculiar) school of thought much given to grand
schemes of hidden secrets and conspiracies. Please read Umberto Eco's
work Faucault's Pendulum as a ballance.
taf
ic
On Tue, 26 Nov 1996, Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
> Yoshiko & Laurent OHIER wrote:
> >
> > 4 years ago, I read a book in which is given a quite "strange"
> > lineage. This book is " The holy blood and the Holy Grail" by Michael
>
> > *Merovee, Frank chieftain of Sicambrian origin in 417. m. Siegse . their
> > son is:
>
> As far as I know, there is no good evidence for any parentage for King
> Merovee (as he is called here. I have seen Clodio in places, but doubt
> it. That his father was Merovee is news to me.
>
> > *Merovee "the young" King of the Franks 448-458, (adopted by the 2nd
> > husband of Siegse, Clodion VI, King of Cambrai (438-448), from Salian
Gregory of Tours says (Bk II, 9) "Some say that Meroveus father of
Childeric descends from Clodio". There is an expression of doubt here
implied by Gregory. Most genealogists however have ignored this and made
Clodio father of Meroveus. Isn't there a more interesting account in
the much later Liber Hist. Francorum (or is it Fredegar?), which
says Meroveus was conceived after his mum went swimming in the Channel
and encountered a sea serpent?
snip
>
> > *Sigisbert IV 676-758, Count of Rhedae. From him exists the new lineage
> > called " Plant-Ard". m. Magdala, Heiress of Narbonne and Carcassone. Their
> > son is:
>
> There is no evidence this person ever existed.
>
Plantard: this is the name of the ex con man who foisted all this
stuff upon Lincoln back in the 1970's. Plantard ran an anti-semitic
newsletter during WW2 (though in his interview with Lincoln, he claimed
links with the Resistance). Later with an obscure aristocrat he wrote the
documents which formed the basis of those quoted by Lincoln in his first
book, placed them in the Bibliotheque Nationale (I think) where Lincoln
conveniently found them. The documents are written on paper common in
the 1940's. This was exposed in a BBC tv program some time ago. There's
a marvelous bit in the origianl interview which Lincoln did with
Plantard (in 1974?) where he asks him: "So you are the REAL King of
France!" Priceless.
>> *Sigisbert V ca.695 -ca.768, Count of Rhedae. He has 2 sons: the first on
>>is Thierry count of Narbonne, father of St Guillaume de Gellone (ancestor
>>of Aquitania dukes). The second one is:
>
> Ditto. The father if Thierry is a matter of HOT
debate, but most > traditional Merovingian Claims trace through his mother.
St.William of Gellone did exist, and did have a father called Theoderic
but there is no Theirry of Narbonne mentioned in any source, nor any
proof of his ancestry.
snip
>
>>*Bera IV 755-813, founder of The abbey of Alet, m. Romille. Their son is:
>
> No evidence.
There is a charter in the Histoire du Languedoc collection (vol II),
which records the foundation of Alet by Ct Bera and Romilla in 813. This
was proved a 10th cent forgery by E.Magnou-Nortier in her book on the
diocese of Narbonne (I forget the French title), p99-100.
> > > *Argila 775-836 Count of Rhedae, m. Reverge. Their son is: >
> Ditto.
>
Argila "son of the late Ct Bera" sells land in Razes & Roussillon to
his son Bera in 844 (HL, II, Preuves no 126). Neither of them are called
count.
>> *Bera V 794-860 Count of Rhedae. He has 2 sons: Bernard "Planta-Velu" or
>>"Planta-Pilus" Count of Limoux d.877 founder of the Aquitania Duche, and:
>
> Bernard "Planta-Velu" has other parents. No evidence that this Bera
> ever existed.
>
Presumably this is meant to be the Bera mentioned in 844. In 846 a
Count Bera gave Exalata to the abbey of Cuxa (HL, II, 129). However
I suspect this may also be a forgery of the 10th century since it
exhibits many of the features that led Magnou-Nortier to disprove
the one of 813 (eg, formulae, wording, titles). However I am not
an expert on this, so he may have been count in 846.
> > *Hilderic Ier d.867, Count of Rhedae. His son is:
>
> No Evidence.
>
>> *Sigisbert VI "Prince Ursus" d.884 or 885, Last Merovingian count of
>>Rhedae, m.Rotilde, dau. of Charles II of France. He tries to revolt against
>>Louis II of France but Fails. He must escape in Brittany. Their son is:
>
I do remember seeing an Ursus mentioned in one of the volumes of the HL
covering this period. I cannot at the moment recall the details or their
authenticity. But its easy to mix some genuine historical figures with
a lot of trash.
It is possible with the help of the Histoire du Languedoc, (vol II p312)
to work out the family relationship of "the Bera's", as I suppose they
must be called.
The Ct Bera mentioned as the late father of Argila in 844 is not
some mythical ct of Razes, or a founder of Alet, but the historical
Bera Ct of Barcelona 801 (or 803) until 820: in that year he was accused
of treason, lost a trial by combat, but was pardoned by Louis the Pious
and exiled to Rouen (Astron. Life of Louis).
He had a son called Willemund who in 827 joined the rebellion of Aizo
in the Spanish March (RFA).
He also had a son Argila 844, and a grandson Bera (II) 844. This Bera (II)
may have been a count in 846. At this time it is thought
that Razes lay under the Counts of Toulouse until after the revolt
of Hunfrid of Gothia (863-4). After Hunfrid went into exile, Razes may
have been detached from toulouse and given to a Count Bernard: a Bernard
is called _comes Redonensi_ in the letters of Hincmar of Reims as
recorded in the work of Flodoard "History of the Church of Reims",
BK III, ch 26 (MGH edition, SS, 13, p526?). Most historians, while they
may disagree over the recipient of these various letters, think they were
written about 865-877. The centre of the county was not Rhedae/Arettis
(the so-called 'lost city of the Visigoths') but in a nearby hilltop
village - the much abused Rennes la Chateau.
Bernard was ct of rennes la Chateau (not Rennes in Brittany for this had
been ceded to the Britons in 851 by Charles the Bald): this does not mean
he was a descendant of Jesus. Possibly in an exchange of counties, as
Bernard got promoted to be Marquis of Gothia, Razes passed into the hands
of the family of Oliba of Carcassone. This is one of many interpretations
of the _historical_ evidence. Other suggestions see Bernard as Ct of Rodez
the centre of Rouergue, though this does fit semantically. Bernard was not
a member of the Bera family: Bernards descent was worked out by K.Werner
many years ago - he was related to the Rorgonids of Maine/Glanfeuil, and
a Poitevin/Perigord family. I won't go into the question of who
Bernard 'Plantavelue' or Hairyfeet was: thats an essay in itself.
The _historical_ family of the Bera's can be extended a little further.
A Miro son of Bera rebelled in Gothia in 877, and his lands were granted
to Ct Oliba by Charles the Bald (HL II, 191, = Tessier no 428). It's
possible that this Miro was the son of the Bera (II) of 844-46.
Bera (I) of Barcelona, as well as 2 sons, also had a daughter, Rotrude
who married a man called Alaric. Both of them seem to have been dead
in 868 and 876 when their daughter Anna made several land grants, one
to the abbey of Cuxa 18.8.868 (HL II, 169), and in 876 (HL II, 190) to
Radulf and his wife. In this Anna's mother Rotrude is called daughter
of Ct Bera, and her father is named as Alaric. I do remember that
a document exists whihc names an Alaric Ct of Ampurias in 843: I also
seem to remember that it may be a forgery - however I have not yet
located it. There is though, a viscount Alaric who sits as one of
the judges in the court of Ct Udalric of Narbonne, Marquis of Gothia
(HL II, 139 - dated 852 by these editors) in a record (of a judgement)
that looks OK.
However there are a number of other Bera's who appear in the charters of
Languedoc in the ninth century. One or more Bera's acts as a judge in
court proceedings of the following years 832 at Elnes (HL II, 80),
852 at Crespian, Narbonne 852 (HL II, 139), 865 at Narbonne (HL II, 165)
868 (at Cuxa?, HL II, 169), 873 at St.Sernin de Verneto (HL II, 185).
This should act as a warning to all those who crave gapless lineages.
However, as its thanksgiving, a possible outline stemma can be drawn
so:
Bera (I) Ct of Barcelona 801-20
|
_______________|__________________________
| | |
Willemund Argila Rotrude m. Alaric
827 844 |
| |
| |
Bera (II) Anna
844-46 868-76
|
Miro
877
Nathaniel Taylor
A propos the recently-posted bogus lineage from the book _Holy Blood, Holy
Grail_, ic <exet...@sable.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
> Plantard: this is the name of the ex con man who foisted all this
> stuff upon Lincoln back in the 1970's. Plantard ran an anti-semitic
> newsletter during WW2 (though in his interview with Lincoln, he claimed
> links with the Resistance). Later with an obscure aristocrat he wrote the
> documents which formed the basis of those quoted by Lincoln in his first
> book, placed them in the Bibliotheque Nationale (I think) where Lincoln
> conveniently found them. The documents are written on paper common in
> the 1940's. This was exposed in a BBC tv program some time ago. There's
> a marvelous bit in the origianl interview which Lincoln did with
> Plantard (in 1974?) where he asks him: "So you are the REAL King of
> France!" Priceless.
I'd love more information on the exposure of Plantard's (and the obscure
aristocrat's) role in this hoax, particularly the forging of the bogus
pedigree. Can anyone cite anything that appeared in the press (either
simultaneously with the BBC program, or after it) with any of these
details? Bar that, how can one get more information on this BBC program?
Nat Taylor
Matman
In article <Pine.OSF.3.91.961128...@sable.ox.ac.uk>,
ic says...
>
>
>
>
>Gregory of Tours says (Bk II, 9) "Some say that Meroveus father of
>Childeric descends from Clodio". There is an expression of doubt here
>implied by Gregory. Most genealogists however have ignored this and made
>Clodio father of Meroveus. Isn't there a more interesting account in
>the much later Liber Hist. Francorum (or is it Fredegar?), which
>says Meroveus was conceived after his mum went swimming in the Channel
>and encountered a sea serpent?
>
Yes! This was the Quinotaur: a friendly beastie it seems. The story
is in fredegar, though he doesn't implicitly say it was the father
of Meroveus (wink, wink). Moreover fredegar adds to gregory's 'implied
doubt', and seems to deny that Chlodio was the father of Meroveus.
I wonder if Meroveus ever existed: I don't think the Merovingians
named any of their sons after him until Chilperic I. Perhaps the
whole founder myth was made up then in the absence of any real
historical detail, at a time when people (eg Gregory) were
beginning to look for and write down the history of the kings
of the Franks. It seems that about this time too, that the 'trojan
ancestry' of the Franks began to circulate.
>>
Matt
ic
On Thu, 28 Nov 1996, ic wrote:
> > Yoshiko & Laurent OHIER wrote:
> > >
> >> *Sigisbert VI "Prince Ursus" d.884 or 885, Last Merovingian count of
> >>Rhedae, m.Rotilde, dau. of Charles II of France. He tries to revolt against
> >>Louis II of France but Fails. He must escape in Brittany. Their son is:
> >
>
> I do remember seeing an Ursus mentioned in one of the volumes of the HL
> covering this period. I cannot at the moment recall the details or their
Now it comes to me. An Ursus _princeps_ is mentioned in the account of
the Translation of the body of St.Bausilus of Nimes c.878 (HL III, 4-5).
The abt of Sassi les Bois in Auxerrois asked Bernard of othia for his
help in obtaining relics of St.Bausilus. Bernard went with 2 of the
monks to Narbonne and obtained the agreement of Abp Sigehard, who sent
his archdeacon Theodard with the monks, while Bernard appointed Ursus as
his representative. But when they got to Nimes, the townspeople rose
against them and tried to prevent them from digging up the body. The
bps of Uzes and Nimes intervened and the body was found 14-4-878, and
later some were given to the monks of Saissi.
The editors of the HL think Ursus may have been vct of Nimes, successor
of Bertrand: this is possible, but nowhere attested. 'Princeps' if
translated in a non-prejorative way, can simply mean, 'an important
man': the term _principes_ was regularly used by ninth century
chroniclers to indicate the leading men or nobles: it should not
really be translated as 'prince' .
However there is no evidence that Ursus ever led a revolt in
Gothia, although there were revolts at this time by Bernard
of Gothia in Burgundy 878-80, and by Miro son of Bera in Gothia
877-8. If he was a follower of Bernard he may have been involved in his
revolt in Burgundy. He may be the same Ursus/Urso who appears as the son
in law of the late Ct Theoderic in a charter for St.Benoit sur Loire
(Fleury) dated April 885. In this Theoderic son of Ct Theoderic and
Ursus restore lands which Ct T had sent them to seize 2 years previous.
Levillain in his 'Nibelungens historiques' (Annales du Midi, 1937-38)
identified the late Ct theoderic of this charter with Ct Theoderic
chamberlain of Louis II 878, and titular ct of Autun 878-9, who along
with many other nobles drove Bernard of Gothia out of Autun in 879.
Perhaps Ursus switched sides at this point.
Either way, Ursus was not a title of some mythical ct of Razes, but
a proper name. A number of Ursus/Ursius/Urso 's appear in documents
of Septimania/Gothia in the 8-9th centuries.