CP & AR's treatment of William & Grace de Tracy & Rohese
Jim Weber
(CP) and Ancestral Roots (AR) treat with William Tracy, illegitimate son
of Henry I, Grace de Tracy wife of John de Sudeley, and Rohese,
daughter of either Henry I (by unknown mistress) or Sybil Corbet,
sometime mistress of Henry I, by Herbert FitzHerbert. I have seen
portions of this discussed on SGM, with opinion running both ways
(CP .vs. AR), seeming to tend toward AR in 1996/8, and lately seeming
to agree more with CP. I was wondering if the newsgroup has newer or
addtional sources (such as Keats-Rohan?) which tend to support one or
the other of the treatments.
The conflict is much more involved than simply a difference between one
person's parents or marriage. The arguments put forth by AR tend to support
each other. Please excuse any typos in the following material.
I will begin with CP, which has the following information in Volume XI,
Appendix D (which is entitled "HENRY I'S ILLEGITIMATE CHILDREN"),
pp. 105-121:
(6) WILLIAM de Tracy or Tracey, whose mother is unknown, and who d.
soon after his father, leaving (by an unknown wife) a daughter and heir (l).
(l) Grace, who m. John de Sudeley, of Sudeley Castle and Toddington, co.
Gloucester, 3rd s. of Harold de Ewias, lord of Ewias (co. Hereford) and
Sudeley, s. and h. of Ralph, Earl of Hereford, s. of Dreu, Count of the French
Vexin, by Godgifu, sister of Edward the Confessor. The 1st son, Ralph de
Sudeley, suc. his father at Sudeley; the 2nd son, William of Toddington,
took his mother's name of Tracy or Tracey; hence Ralph de Sudeley
confirmed a gift of his brother William de Tracy to Gloucester Abbey. The
direct line of Tracy of Toddington became extinct on the death of Henry
(Tracy), 8th Viscount Tracy, in 1797; but cadets of this very ancient house
may still exist.
(11) ROHESE, who m., not later than 1146, Henry de la Pomerai, a great
Devonshire baron, s. and h. of Joscelin de la Pomerai. He fought for Henry I in
the rebellion of 1123, and in the King's later years was a deputy or assistant
Constable in his Household. In 1136 he was one of Stephen's commanders in
Normandy. He prospered under Henry II. He was dead in 1167. His wife was
probably living in 1175 or 1176. They left sons, Henry and Joscelin.
The following items are copied from AR, 7th edition:
Line 222-27. GRACE DE TRACY, parentage unknown; m. by 1130, JOHN DE
SUDELEY (235-23), of Sudeley Castle and Toddington, co. Gloucester,
appears in the 1130 pipe roll. (Atikins, 'Gloucestershire 369'; 'VCH Warwick' V
70; 'Hist. Mon. St. Peter, Clouc.', ii 180; Sanders, 85-86).
Note: Grace is given in all standard sources as the dau. & h. of William de Tracy
of Devonshire. However, recent research reveals that William de Tracy, d. ca.
1135, was succeeded in his lands by 1165 by another William de Tracy who was
apparently his son. This second William de Tracy was not Grace's son as
commonly claimed even though she had a son with this name. Grace's son
William de Tracy was an adult by the 1140s, and he seems to have held only the
manor of Toddington, co. Gloucester, of the honour of Sudeley. Chronology
suggests that Grace herself was likely of the same generation as King Henry's
bastard son, William de Tracy. In any event, she was probably not William's
daughter and certainly no his heir.
222-28. RALPH DE SUDELEY, of age 1135, d. 1192, held 3 knight's fees 1166
(brother of William de Tracy of Toddington, ancestor of the Viscounts Tracy);
m. Emma, dau. of William I de Beauchamp, d. 1170, of Elmley, co. Worcester, by
his wife, Bertha, dau. of William de Braiose, d. ca. 1192-3, of Bramber, Sussex,
by his wife BERTHA of HEREFORD (177-5). (Authorities as before: Emma
Mason, ed., 'The Beachamp Cartulary Charters 110-1268', pub. 1980 as Publ.
Pipe Roll Soc., n.s., vol. 43, chart p. Iviii).
Note [at end of Line 222]: The assistance of Douglas Richardson in revising this
line is gratefully acknowledged.
[Note from JW: I have seen Grace's father as being said to be Henry de Tracy,
who held Barnstaple, Devon by 1130 (but not long before), according to 'The
Origins of Some Anglo-Norman Families', by Lewis C Loyd, 1999, p. 104-106.
Loyd does not mention Grace, but puts Henry de Tracy's origin at Tracy, [La]
Manche, Normandy.]
Line 25 (Revised & expanded by Douglas Richardson. This corrects and
replaces much of what has been printed in earlier editions.)
25-26. WILLIAM DE TRACY (222-26), b. aft. 1090, d. shortly aft. 1135, by
unknown wife had
25-27. N.N. de TRACY (called Eva in Devon & Cornwall N&O xix 194-201 but
this is perhaps an error for her neice, Eva or Emma de Tracy, who mar. Warin de
Bassingbourne); m. say 1165, Gervaise de Courtenay who was probably closely
related to REGINALD DE COURTENAY (138-25) as both families gave grants to
Tor Abbey and Ford Abbey (the latter abbey having the Countenay (sic) family
as its chief patron). Gervase de Courtenay and his wife had two identifiable
children, Hugh de Courtenay (who had control of his uncle Sir Willliam de
Tracy's barony of Bradninch, Devon, in the latter part of hte 1190s) and William
de Tracy (living 1198-1199). This 2nd son William de Tracy is perhaps identical
with the William de Tracy who was holding the manor of Bradford Tracy, (East)
Spreweye and Ivedon, Devon, in 1242-3. Besides these two sons there may
have been a third son, Oliver (No. 28 below), but the evidence does not prove or
disprove it. ('Book of Fees', pt. II, pp. 759 & 792; George Oliver, 'Monasticon
Dioecesis Exoniensis', pp. 183, 187, 338, 346, 347; 'Devon & Cornwall N & O' xix
194-201; 'Calendar of Documents Preserved in France', ed. Round, I:194-195;
'Curia Regis Rolls', 12:440, 13:137-138, 247, 187, 364-385, 395)
Line 124A (Prepared by Douglas Richardson)
124A-29. HENRY DE CHAMBERNON, d. ca. 1210, of Ilfracombe, Devon; m.
Rose (or Rohese), liv. 1237, app. dau. & h. Sir William de Tracy, b. say 1135,
seen 1170, of Bradninch, Devon, one of the 4 murderers of Thomas a Beckett,
Archbishop of Canterbury, s. of WILLIAM DE TRACY (222-26), d. ca. 1135,
lord of Bradninch, Devon. Rose m. (2) Robert de Sechevill (or Sacchville), d. ca.
1218, of Braunton, Cowley, Dunsford & Rewe, Devon. Rose was h. to Clistwick,
Devon (Clyst St. George or Clist Champernowne). Manor previously the
maritagium of Sir William de Tracy's wife, given name unknown. The lord of
Bradninch held Clyst St. George of the Pomeroy family; so Sir William de
Tracy's wife likely dau. of Henry de Pomeroy, seen 1156, lord of Berry Pomeroy,
Devon, by ROHESE (195-26). Rohese was a sister of REGINALD FITZ ROY
(121-26), Earl of Cornwall, a bastard son of King Henry I. Earl Reginald had
several half-siblings by his mother, Sibyl Corbet's marriage to HERBERT FITZ
HERBERT (262-27); so likely Rohese de Pomeroy was a child of her mother's
marriage to Herbert Fitz Herbert, because as her dau.'s husb. Sir William de
Tracy, himself a gr.s. of King Henry I, would be his wife's 1st cousin if she were
also Henry's grandchild. This previously undetected Tracy-Pomeroy match
gives stong circumstantial evidence that King Henry I was not Rohese de
Pomeroy's father. ('Book of Fees, Part I', pp. 97, 612-613; Pipe Rolls 12th King
John [A.D. 1210], ed. S.F. SLade (1951), 'Pub. of the Pipe Roll Soc.', Vol 64 [or
n.s., Vol. 26], pp. 167-168; George Oliver, 'Monasticon Dioecesis Exoninsis'
(1846), pp. 246-247; 'History of the Champernowne Family, cit.', p. 10; Sanders,
20-21, 106-107).
Line 195-26. ROHESE, liv. 1175/6; m. 1146, Henry de la Pomerai, a great
Devonshire baron, son and h. of Joscelin de la Pomerai, commander in
Normandy, 1136, d. 1167. (The lef sons Henry and Joscelin. CP XI, App. D, 119).
- - - - -
One comment that I have is that if Grace's son Ralph de Sudeley was of age in
1135 (b. c. 1114), then there is no way that she would be daughter of William de
Tracy, who was born after 1090. CP states that the eldest bastard son of Henry
I, Robert de Caen, was born ca. 1190.
As Douglas Richardson is a frequent contributor to the newgroup, I hope that
he adds to the discussion of who is correct: AR or CP?
Jim Weber
Chris Phillips
Jim Weber wrote:
> There is a huge difference in the manner in which The Complete Peerage
> (CP) and Ancestral Roots (AR) treat with William Tracy, illegitimate son
> of Henry I, Grace de Tracy wife of John de Sudeley, and Rohese,
> daughter of either Henry I (by unknown mistress) or Sybil Corbet,
> sometime mistress of Henry I, by Herbert FitzHerbert. I have seen
> portions of this discussed on SGM, with opinion running both ways
> (CP .vs. AR), seeming to tend toward AR in 1996/8, and lately seeming
> to agree more with CP. I was wondering if the newsgroup has newer or
> addtional sources (such as Keats-Rohan?) which tend to support one or
> the other of the treatments.
Keats-Rohan (Domesday People, p. 725) says that John de Sudeley married
Grace, daughter of William de Tracy, a natural son of Henry I. She cites D.
Bates, "Lord Sudeley's Ancestors: the family of the counts of Amiens, Valois
and the Vexin", in "The Sudeleys - Lords of Toddington", The Manorial
Society of Great Britain (1987). The same is said on p. 743.
The marriage of John and Grace is dated either c.1130/35 (p. 725) or
apparently before 1129, when p. 743 says he accounted for a plea of his
wife.
> 222-28. RALPH DE SUDELEY, of age 1135, d. 1192, held 3 knight's fees 1166
> (brother of William de Tracy of Toddington, ancestor of the Viscounts
Tracy);
> m. Emma, dau. of William I de Beauchamp, d. 1170, of Elmley, co.
Worcester, by
> his wife, Bertha, dau. of William de Braiose, d. ca. 1192-3, of Bramber,
Sussex,
> by his wife BERTHA of HEREFORD (177-5). (Authorities as before: Emma
> Mason, ed., 'The Beachamp Cartulary Charters 110-1268', pub. 1980 as Publ.
> Pipe Roll Soc., n.s., vol. 43, chart p. Iviii).
...
> One comment that I have is that if Grace's son Ralph de Sudeley was of age
in
> 1135 (b. c. 1114), then there is no way that she would be daughter of
William de
> Tracy, who was born after 1090. CP states that the eldest bastard son of
Henry
> I, Robert de Caen, was born ca. 1190. [****CGP: 1090?]
Keats-Rohan says only that John de Sudeley was succeeded before 1166 by his
sons Ralph and William. If it's correct that Ralph married a daughter of the
William de Beauchamp who d. 1170, it looks wrong for him to be born as early
as the 1110s.
Perhaps someone else can tie down the Beauchamp chronology better, but on
the information given by Emma Mason and elsewhere, it looked as though
William de Beauchamp's son William might not have been married until as late
as the 1190s. The identification of the elder William's wife as Bertha,
daughter of William de Braose, certainly seems to be incorrect - she should
be the wife of the younger William. On that mistaken basis, Emma Mason dated
the elder William's marriage to about 1140. But this was apparently dated on
a date of "160 years earlier" in an inquisition of 1305, which is clearly
wrong and refers to a different William anyway.
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=032801c1abfa%2435aba6a0%24b43086d9%40oe
mcomputer&output=gplain
So I think the chronology implies for Ralph de Sudeley above must be too
early, by quite a lot.
Chris Phillips