EBALUS THE BASTARD
D. Spencer Hines
In furtherance of our ELEANOR OF AQUITAINE AHNENREIHE [just trying to do it
the way the FAQ tells us to :)] I want to make sure I don't screw up
EBALUS THE BASTARD'S patrimony [that sure is fun to write :)]
As I currently have it, CHARLEMAGNE begat LOUIS I "le Pieux" Roi de
France---who begat HILDEGARDE [French, remember] circa 802. She married
GERARD D'AUVERGNE and begat RAMNULF I Comte de Poitou---who begat RAMNULF
II---who begat EBALUS THE BASTARD---who begat GUILLAUME I [III] "Tete
d'Etoupe" Comte de Poitou who is, of course, ELEANOR OF AQUITAINE's direct
ancestor. HILDEGARDE reportedly died in 841.
"EBLES" is the French form of the Latin EBALUS? He was also called MANZER?
Why not FITZ-MANZER? :) Do we know if MANZER has any MEANING? [not
shouting] ["Der Mansch" is apparently 'slush' or 'sloshy mess'---in
German----no connection---I hope.] [Or French, "Manger"---'The Eater'?]; or
we simply don't know----and who's asking such a dumb question?
Also, if we have identified EBALUS'S [this typing all caps is hard on the
nails] Mommy and Daddy, why do we call him EBALUS THE BASTARD? Was RAMNULF
II *not* his real Daddy, or was the alleged wife of RAMNULF II, IRMGARDE,
not his real Mommy----or do we really know for sure? Perhaps his real
Mommy was also WILLIAM LONGSPEE'S Mommy-----"COUNTESS IDA"---?
Children Love Genealogy too.
I'd appreciate it if someone could give me the *Stammtafeln* citations for
Charlemagne->Louis I-> Hildegarde->Gerard d'Auvergne->Ramnulf I->Ramnulf
II->EBLES [confirmation as French form of the name?] "MANZER" Comte de
Poitou---if that is the way it goes.
Merci beaucoup
D. Spencer Hines---"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever
remains, however improbable, must be the truth."---Sherlock Holmes---Sir
Arthur Conan Doyle (1859-1930)---"The Sign of Four" (1890), Chapter 6.
Terry Oehler
It is my understanding that "Mamzer" (or "Manzer") *means* "Bastard".
I read that somewhere, but (sorry Spencer) I don't have my sources at
hand. It struck me when I read it, because "Mamzer" or "Manser" do
not seem to be related to any word for "Bastard" in any language I
know (Latin, French, German, Spanish, English).
In any event, "Ebles Mamzer the Bastard" would seem to be
a tautology, according to this source (whatever the source is).
Flames, anyone?
William Addams Reitwiesner
In article <9705080...@sfpl.lib.ca.us>,
Terry Oehler <ter...@SFPL.LIB.CA.US> writes:
No, you're right. "Mamzer" means "Bastard". The problem is that
you're not looking at the right language. Try Hebrew.
Under Jewish rules, if a married woman has a child by a man she's not
married to, that child is a "Mamzer". A child of an unmarried woman
is not a Mamzer, and a child of a married man by a woman he's not
married to is not a Mamzer (unless the woman was married to someone
else). Mamzerim are not permitted to marry non-Mamzerim, and all the
children of a Mamzer are Mamzerim -- the stain cannot be removed no
matter how many generations from the bastardy.
For further details, consult your local Rabbi.
William Addams Reitwiesner
wr...@loc.gov
D. Spencer Hines
Thank you Terry and William.
I tried to call the local Rabbi in Honolulu---but he is off looking for
a new Harley motorcycle. Something about joining the Family in
Kazakhstan.
My knowledge of Jewish Mamzerin Law is non-existent. But, looking
simply at the passage by WAR above---it would appear that RAMNULF II,
Comte de Poitou may not be the "biological" Father of EBALUS THE BASTARD
and Irmgarde, EBALUS THE BASTARD'S alleged Mother, may have had a child
fathered by someone else.
["Under Jewish rules, if a married woman has a child by a man she's not
married to, that child is a "Mamzer". A child of an unmarried woman is
not a Mamzer, and a child of a married man by a woman he's not married
to is not a Mamzer (unless the woman was married to someone else).
As I understand this passage, if EBALUS THE BASTARD had simply been born
out of wedlock, e.g., before his parents were married [marriage
date=circa 867] he would not be a Manzer under this Jewish protocol. If
RAMNULF II had an affair with a married woman---I suppose EBALUS THE
BASTARD could be a Mamzer by that route, as well.
If the first example, supra, were true, that RAMNULF II Comte de Poitou,
is not he Father of EBALUS THE BASTARD---this fact would appear to put a
severe crimp in the descent of ELEANOR OF AQUITAINE from CHARLEMAGNE,
through the Counts of Poitou. If the second example were true, she
would not be crimped.
Comments, critiques and corrections?
--
D. Spencer Hines---"Non nobis, Domine, non nobis, sed Nomini Tuo da
gloriam, propter misericordiam Tuam et veritatem Tuam." Henry V,
[1387-1422] King of England---Ordered it to be sung by his prelates and
chaplains---after the Battle of Agincourt, 25 Oct 1415,---while every
able-bodied man in his victorious army knelt, on the ground. [Psalm CXV,
Verse I]
D. Spencer Hines
Terry Oehler wrote:
<snip>
One direct question can certainly potentially unravel a pedigree can't
it. Thanks for bringing this *Manzer* to our attention.
Now-----one might ask why EBALUS "MANZER" had a Jewish moniker. I put
this to a good friend, "The Local Rabbi"---who has not yet found the
perfect Harley-Davidson---and his response was priceless.
"Check and see if he was circumsized!", said he. So I propose that task
to the Medieval Genealogical Burial and DNA Irregulars. [MGBDI] EBALUS
THE BASTARD lives on---if only because of the heightened interest in his
potentially missing ----skin.
Bob Leutner
I can only say that when I tuned in on this, "mamzer"
immediately sounded Yiddish to me, and within a few posts,
there it was. Is it at all possible it represents some
surprising presence at Court of --how can I say this?-- a sort
of Jewish jesterhood who might have supplied nicknames to the
nobility? I really mean this seriously: what might have been
the cultural presence of Jews in that time and place that
could account for this sort of nickname sticking to a member
of the high nobility? Is it a sort of euphemism, or a joke
name that has for some of reason survived, as if generations
hence we were puzzling over "Tricky Dick" as a suggestion of
somebody's having illegitimate progeny? Surely we're not
talking about Hebrew scholars at court so early? Pretty big
puzzlement. What are the precedents?
Bob Leutner
Iowa City IA
robert-...@uiowa.edu
Nathaniel Taylor
William Addams Reitwiesner wrote:
> Terry Oehler <ter...@SFPL.LIB.CA.US> writes, re Ebles Mamzer,
> count of Poitou and duke of Aquitaine (d. 934)
>
> >It is my understanding that "Mamzer" (or "Manzer") *means* "Bastard".
>
> No, you're right. "Mamzer" means "Bastard". The problem is that
> you're not looking at the right language. Try Hebrew.
>
> Under Jewish rules, if a married woman has a child by a man she's not
> married to, that child is a "Mamzer". A child of an unmarried woman
> is not a Mamzer, and a child of a married man by a woman he's not
> married to is not a Mamzer (unless the woman was married to someone
> else). Mamzerim are not permitted to marry non-Mamzerim, and all the
> children of a Mamzer are Mamzerim -- the stain cannot be removed no
> matter how many generations from the bastardy.
In response to the obvious next question, no one knows why Ebles carried
what is apparently a Hebrew epithet. David H. Kelley has noted that this
is one of a number of Hebrew-derived nicknames and epithets in use among
the Carolingian nobility in this period; Kelley has developed a hypothesis
about the dissemination of Jewish blood in some of these families which
parallels, but is not identical to, the thesis of Arthur Zuckerman in his
book _A Jewish Principality in Feudal France_ (New York, 1973).
Unfortunately Prof. Kelley has not yet published any serious statement of
this hypothesis, but there are certainly many unanswered questions here.
Another possible explanation is that the name does not necessarily reflect
Jewish blood or the strict applicability of the term under Jewish law, but
exemplifies a fashion for Hebrew names and epithets among the Frankish
nobility which was also current in the court of Charlemagne. It may just
have been deemed (by someone with a smidgeon of culture) an exotic and
therefore genteel way to mention the count's irregular birth.
Nat Taylor
D. Spencer Hines
Nathaniel Taylor wrote:
>
> In response to the obvious next question, no one knows why Ebles carried
> what is apparently a Hebrew epithet. David H. Kelley has noted that this
> is one of a number of Hebrew-derived nicknames and epithets in use among
> the Carolingian nobility in this period; Kelley has developed a hypothesis
> about the dissemination of Jewish blood in some of these families which
> parallels, but is not identical to, the thesis of Arthur Zuckerman in his
> book _A Jewish Principality in Feudal France_ (New York, 1973).
> Unfortunately Prof. Kelley has not yet published any serious statement of
> this hypothesis, but there are certainly many unanswered questions here.
>
> Another possible explanation is that the name does not necessarily reflect
> Jewish blood or the strict applicability of the term under Jewish law, but
> exemplifies a fashion for Hebrew names and epithets among the Frankish
> nobility which was also current in the court of Charlemagne. It may just
> have been deemed (by someone with a smidgeon of culture) an exotic and
> therefore genteel way to mention the count's irregular birth.
As to the question of his illegitimacy, have you seen any evidence---or
even intelligent, focused speculation ------perhaps based on fragmentary
reports----as to "which way" he was a bastard.
To be quite direct and specific, was he or was he not the biological son
of Ramnulf II Comte de Poitou?
Thank you.
D. Spencer Hines
Apropos my last, if EBALUS THE BASTARD were not the biological son of
RAMNULF II, Comte de Poitou---then ELEANOR OF AQUITAINE would allegedly
need to take her descent from CHARLEMAGNE through the Counts of
Vermandois to EMMA DE BLOIS who married GUILLAUME II/IV "Fierebrace" Duc
d'Aquitaine/Comte de Poitou.
Does she have other documented descents from CHARLEMAGNE?
D. Spencer Hines
Alan B. Wilson wrote:
>
> In article <337380...@worldnet.att.net>, shi...@worldnet.att.net (D.
> Spencer Hines) wrote:
>
> > Apropos my last, if EBALUS THE BASTARD were not the biological son of
> > RAMNULF II, Comte de Poitou---then ELEANOR OF AQUITAINE would allegedly
> > need to take her descent from CHARLEMAGNE through the Counts of
> > Vermandois to EMMA DE BLOIS who married GUILLAUME II/IV "Fierebrace" Duc
> > d'Aquitaine/Comte de Poitou.
>
> Rainulf II and an unnamed concubine [ES ii,76]. (Moriarty suggests the
> concubine was possibly an "Ermengarde".)
> >
> > Does she have other documented descents from CHARLEMAGNE?
>
> I've always had difficulty resisting the temptation to extend ancestral
> lines to Big Chuck. :) Below are several descents from Charlemagne to
> various of Eleanor's great-great-great grandparents. (Their ancestral
> numbers appear in curly brackets {} at the end of the title to each
> list.) Each list can be readily continued to Eleanor using Eleanor's
> already published ancestry.
>
Monsieur, c'est magnifique.
Alan B. Wilson
> Apropos my last, if EBALUS THE BASTARD were not the biological son of
> RAMNULF II, Comte de Poitou---then ELEANOR OF AQUITAINE would allegedly
> need to take her descent from CHARLEMAGNE through the Counts of
> Vermandois to EMMA DE BLOIS who married GUILLAUME II/IV "Fierebrace" Duc
> d'Aquitaine/Comte de Poitou.
Ebles "Manzer", Count of Poitou and Duke of Aquitaine, was the son of
Rainulf II and an unnamed concubine [ES ii,76]. (Moriarty suggests the
concubine was possibly an "Ermengarde".)
>
> Does she have other documented descents from CHARLEMAGNE?
Eleanor of Aquitaine has many lines of descent from Charlemagne.
I've always had difficulty resisting the temptation to extend ancestral
lines to Big Chuck. :) Below are several descents from Charlemagne to
various of Eleanor's great-great-great grandparents. (Their ancestral
numbers appear in curly brackets {} at the end of the title to each
list.) Each list can be readily continued to Eleanor using Eleanor's
already published ancestry.
After each generation I give a very brief bibliographic reference in
square brackets []. A roman numeral volume followed by a page number
refers to ES. In most cases that is all I give. In a few places where ES
does not provide adequate coverage I have inserted "Mr" for Moriarty,
Plantagenet Ancestry; or "AR" for Weis, Ancestral Roots.
Descent to Guillaume IV of Aquitaine {#32}
1. Charlemagne King (2 Apr 747 - 28 Jan 814)
& Hildegard of Linzgau Countess (758 - 30 Apr 783) [i,2]
2. Louis I "the Pious" of Aquitaine King (Aug 778 - 20 Jun 840)
& Ermengarde of Hesbaye (Circa 778 - 3 Oct 818) [i,2]
3. Matilda of the West Princess (Circa 800 - )
& Gerard of Auvergne Count (About 795 - 25 Jun 841) [ii,76; Mr,26;
AR,144A]
4. Ranulf I of Aquitane Duke (Circa 820 - Oct 866)
& ? of Maine (Circa 825 - ) [ii,76]
5. Rainulf II of Poitiers Count (Circa 855 - 5 Aug 890)
& Ermengarde [ii, 76]
6. Ebles "Manzer" of Aquitaine Duke (Circa 880 - 935)
& Emiliane (About 885 - ) [ii,76]
7. Guillaume III of Aquitaine Duke (Circa 925 - 3 Apr 963)
& Adele (Gerloc) of Normandy (Circa 910 - After 969) [ii,76]
8. Guillaume IV of Aquitaine Duke (937 - 3 Feb 995)
& Emma of Blois (950 - After 1003) [ii,76]
Descent to Emma of Blois {#33}
1. Charlemagne King (2 Apr 747 - 28 Jan 814)
& Hildegard of Linzgau Countess (758 - 30 Apr 783) [i,2]
2. Louis I "the Pious" of Aquitaine King (Aug 778 - 20 Jun 840)
& Judith of Bavaria (Circa 805 - 19 Apr 843) [i,2]
3. Charles II "the Bald" of France King (13 Jun 823 - 6 Oct 877)
& Richaut of Metz ( - 910/914) [i,2; AR,49]
4. Rothaut of France Princess (Circa 871 - )
& Hugh of Bourges Count (862 - 892) [Mr, 37; AR,49]
5. Richilde of Bourges (892 - )
& Theobald of Blois Count (Circa 885 - Before 943) [Mr,36-37; AR,49;
ii,46]
6. Theobald of Blois Count (Circa 915 - 16 Jan 975)
& Legarde of Vermandois (915/920 - After 978) [Mr,36, AR,49; ii,46]
7. Emma of Blois (950 - After 1003)
& Guillaume IV of Aquitaine Duke (937 - 3 Feb 995) [Mr,36; ii,46]
Descent to Otto I Guillaume of Burgundy {#34}
1. Charlemagne King (2 Apr 747 - 28 Jan 814)
& Hildegard of Linzgau Countess (758 - 30 Apr 783) [i,2]
2. Louis I "the Pious" of Aquitaine King (Aug 778 - 20 Jun 840)
& Ermengarde of Hesbaye (Circa 778 - 3 Oct 818) [i,2]
3. Lothaire I of Italy King (795 - 29 Sep 855)
& Ermengard of Tours Countess (Circa 800 - 20 Mar 851) [i,2]
4. Lothar II of Lorraine King (827 - 3 Aug 869)
& Waldrada ( - After 868) [i,2]
5. Bertha of Lorraine Princess (Circa 863 - 8 Mar 925)
& Thibault of Arles Count (Circa 844 - 887/895) [i,2; ii,186]
6. Teutberga of Arles (About 905 - Before 30 Sep 948)
& Garnier \ Warinus of Troyes Count (Circa 868 - 6 Dec 925) [ii,186]
7. Berta of Troyes
& Letalde I of Macon Count (Circa 895 - 17 Sep 965) [iii,439]
8. Gerberge of Macon (Circa 937 - 11 Dec 986/991)
& Adelbert King of Lombard (932/936 - 968) [ii,159; iii,439]
9. Otto I Guillaume of Burgundy Count (Circa 955 - 21 Sep 1026)
& Hermentrude of Roucy (958/959 - 5 Mar 1002/1005) [ii,159]
Descent to Hermentrude of Roucy {#35}
1. Charlemagne King (2 Apr 747 - 28 Jan 814)
& Hildegard of Linzgau Countess (758 - 30 Apr 783) [i,2]
2. Louis I "the Pious" of Aquitaine King (Aug 778 - 20 Jun 840)
& Ermengarde of Hesbaye (Circa 778 - 3 Oct 818) [i,2]
3. Lothaire I of Italy King (795 - 29 Sep 855)
& Ermengard of Tours Countess (Circa 800 - 20 Mar 851) [i,2,95]
4. Ermengarde of Italy Princess (Circa 830 - )
& Giselbert in Maasgau Count (Circa 825 - After 885) [i,95]
5. Regnier I of Lorraine Duke (Circa 850 - 915/916)
& Alberade of Lorraine (Circa 860 - After 919) [i,95]
6. Giselbert of Lorraine Duke (Circa 890 - 2 Oct 939)
& Gerberge of Saxony (913/914 - 5 May 984) [i,95]
7. Alberade of Lorraine (Circa 930 - 10 May 967)
& Renaud \ Ragnvald of Roucy Count (Circa 926 - 10 May 967) [i,95;
iii,675A]
8. Hermentrude of Roucy (958/959 - 5 Mar 1002/1005)
& Otto I Guillaume of Burgundy Count (Circa 955 - 21 Sep 1026) [iii,675A]
Descent to Robert II "the Pious" of France {#36}
1. Charlemagne King (2 Apr 747 - 28 Jan 814)
& Hildegard of Linzgau Countess (758 - 30 Apr 783) [i,2]
2. Pepin of Lombardy King (Apr 773 - 8 Jul 810)
& Bertha of Toulouse ? (Circa 777 - ) [i,2; iii,49]
3. Bernard of Italy King (Circa 797 - 17 Apr 818)
& Cunigunde (Kunigunde) (Circa 797 - After 15 Jun 835) [i,2; iii,49]
4. Pepin of Peronne Count (817/818 - 892) [iii,49]
5. Herbert I of Vermandois Count (Circa 840 - 902)
& Beatrice (Bertha) of Morvois [iii,49]
6. Beatrix of Vermandois (Circa 880 - After Mar 931)
& Robert I Count of Paris (866 - 15 Jun 923) [iii,49; ii,10]
7. Hugh Magnus of France Duke (Circa 895 - 16 Jun 956)
& Hedwig of Saxony (922 - 10 May 965) [ii,10,11]
8. Hugh Capet of France King (941 - 24 Oct 996)
& Adelaide of Poitou Lady (Circa 950 - 15 Jun 1004) [ii,11]
9. Robert II "the Pious" of France King (27 Mar 972 - 20 Jul 1031)
& Constance of Arles (Toulouse) (Circa 986 - 25 Jul 1032) [ii,11]
Descent to Constance of Arles {#37}
1. Charlemagne King (2 Apr 747 - 28 Jan 814)
& Hildegard of Linzgau Countess (758 - 30 Apr 783) [i,2]
2. Louis I "the Pious" of Aquitaine King (Aug 778 - 20 Jun 840)
& Ermengarde of Hesbaye (Circa 778 - 3 Oct 818) [i,2]
3. Lothaire I of Italy King (795 - 29 Sep 855)
& Ermengard of Tours Countess (Circa 800 - 20 Mar 851) [i,2]
4. Louis II le Jeune Holy Roman Emper (822 - 12 Aug 875)
& Engelberge of Alsace (Circa 826 - 890) [i,2]
5. Hermengarde of Italy (852/855 - 896)
& Boso of Vienne Count (Circa 840 - 1 Nov 887) [ii,189]
6. Louis III the Beronides "the Blind" Holy Roman Emper (883 - 5 Jun 928)
& Anna of Byzantium (886/888 - Before 915) [ii,189]
7. Charles Constantine of Vienne Count (Circa 901 - After Jan 962)
& Teutberge of Troyes (About 902 - After 960) [ii,189]
8. Constance of Vienne (Circa 920 - 961/965)
& Boso II of Arles Count (Circa 910 - 965/967) [ii,189,187]
9. William I of Provence Count (Circa 947 - 1037)
& Adelaide of Anjou (Before 940 - 1026) [ii,187]
10. Constance of Arles (Toulouse) (Circa 986 - 25 Jul 1032)
& Robert II "the Pious" of France King (27 Mar 972 - 20 Jul 1031) [ii,187]
Descent to Foulques III "Nerra" of Anjou {#38}
1. Charlemagne King (2 Apr 747 - 28 Jan 814)
& Hildegard of Linzgau Countess (758 - 30 Apr 783) [i,2]
2. Pepin of Lombardy King (Apr 773 - 8 Jul 810)
& Bertha of Toulouse ? (Circa 777 - ) [i,2; iii,49]
3. Bernard of Italy King (Circa 797 - 17 Apr 818)
& Cunigunde (Kunigunde) (Circa 797 - After 15 Jun 835) [i,2; iii,49]
4. Pepin of Peronne Count (817/818 - 892) [iii,49]
5. Herbert I of Vermandois Count (Circa 840 - 902)
& Beatrice (Bertha) of Morvois [iii,49]
6. Herbert II of Vermandois Count (880/890 - 23 Feb 943)
& Hildebrante (Liegarde) of Neustria (Circa 887 - After Mar 931) [iii,49]
7. Robert of Vermandois (920 - Aug 967)
& Adelaide of Burgundy (Circa 920 - After 967) [iii,49]
8. Adelaide of Vermandois (Circa 950 - 974)
& Geoffrey I Grisegonelle of Anjou Count (Circa 940 - 21 Jul 987)
[iii,49,116]
9. Foulques III "Nerra" of Anjou Count (Circa 970/971 - 21 Jun 1040)
& Hildegarde of Lotharingia (Circa 964/974 - 1 Apr 1046) [iii,116]
Descent to Emma of Provence {#41}
1. Charlemagne 2831 King (2 Apr 747 - 28 Jan 814)
& Hildegard of Linzgau Countess (758 - 30 Apr 783) [i,2]
2. Louis I "the Pious" of Aquitaine King (Aug 778 - 20 Jun 840)
& Ermengarde of Hesbaye (Circa 778 - 3 Oct 818) [i,2]
3. Lothaire I of Italy King (795 - 29 Sep 855)
& Ermengard of Tours Countess (Circa 800 - 20 Mar 851) [i,2]
4. Lothar II of Lorraine King (827 - 3 Aug 869)
& Waldrada ( - After 868) [i,2]
5. Bertha of Lorraine Princess (Circa 863 - 8 Mar 925)
& Thibault of Arles Count (Circa 844 - 887/895) [i,2; ii,186]
6. Teutberga of Arles (About 905 - Before 30 Sep 948)
& Garnier \ Warinus of Troyes Count (Circa 868 - 6 Dec 925) [ii,186]
7. Teutberge of Troyes (About 902 - After 960)
& Charles Constantine of Vienne Count (Circa 901 - After Jan 962) [ii,189]
8. Constance of Vienne (Circa 920 - 961/965)
& Boso II of Arles Count (Circa 910 - 965/967) [ii,189,187]
9. Rotbold II of Provence Count (Circa 940 - 1008)
& Eimilde of Gevaudun [ii,187]
10. Rotbald III of Provence ( - Circa 1005)
& Ermengarde (About 945 - 28 Aug 1057) [ii,187]
11. Emma of Provence (Circa 965 - After 1063)
& William III "Taillefer" of Toulouse Count (947 - Sep 1037) [ii,187]
--
Alan B. Wilson
abwi...@uclink2.berkeley.edu
Todd A. Farmerie
Alan B. Wilson wrote:
>
> Descent to Otto I Guillaume of Burgundy {#34}
> 1. Charlemagne King (2 Apr 747 - 28 Jan 814)
> & Hildegard of Linzgau Countess (758 - 30 Apr 783) [i,2]
> 2. Louis I "the Pious" of Aquitaine King (Aug 778 - 20 Jun 840)
> & Ermengarde of Hesbaye (Circa 778 - 3 Oct 818) [i,2]
> 3. Lothaire I of Italy King (795 - 29 Sep 855)
> & Ermengard of Tours Countess (Circa 800 - 20 Mar 851) [i,2]
> 4. Lothar II of Lorraine King (827 - 3 Aug 869)
> & Waldrada ( - After 868) [i,2]
> 5. Bertha of Lorraine Princess (Circa 863 - 8 Mar 925)
> & Thibault of Arles Count (Circa 844 - 887/895) [i,2; ii,186]
> 6. Teutberga of Arles (About 905 - Before 30 Sep 948)
> & Garnier \ Warinus of Troyes Count (Circa 868 - 6 Dec 925) [ii,186]
> 7. Berta of Troyes
> & Letalde I of Macon Count (Circa 895 - 17 Sep 965) [iii,439]
> 8. Gerberge of Macon (Circa 937 - 11 Dec 986/991)
> & Adelbert King of Lombard (932/936 - 968) [ii,159; iii,439]
> 9. Otto I Guillaume of Burgundy Count (Circa 955 - 21 Sep 1026)
> & Hermentrude of Roucy (958/959 - 5 Mar 1002/1005) [ii,159]
The ancestry of Gerberge (#8) has been subject to some debate, so I will
present an obvious alternative:
6.Boso, Count of Arles
7.Willa m. Berenger II, King of Italy (g-g-grandson of Louis I)
8.Adelbert, King of Italy
9.Otto William
taf
Matman
Nathaniel Taylor wrote:
>
> William Addams Reitwiesner wrote:
>
> > Terry Oehler <ter...@SFPL.LIB.CA.US> writes, re Ebles Mamzer,
> > count of Poitou and duke of Aquitaine (d. 934)
> >
> > you're not looking at the right language. Try Hebrew.
> >
> > Under Jewish rules, if a married woman has a child by a man she's not> > married to, that child is a "Mamzer". A child of an unmarried woman
> In response to the obvious next question, no one knows why Ebles >carried > what is apparently a Hebrew epithet. David H. Kelley has >noted that this> is one of a number of Hebrew-derived nicknames and >epithets in use among> the Carolingian nobility in this period; Kelley >has developed a hypothesis> about the dissemination of Jewish blood in >some of these families
snip
>
> Another possible explanation is that the name does not necessarily >reflect> Jewish blood or the strict applicability of the term under >Jewish law, but> exemplifies a fashion for Hebrew names and epithets >among the Frankish> nobility which was also current in the court of >Charlemagne.
I think your explanation is infinitely better than Kelley's.
The use of 'Jewish names' had been common amoung the Franks
for some time: often children destined for the church were
given names from the Old Testament. There is no need to invent
a Jewish ancestry to explain this. There was great interest
in the Old testament at this time, especially the Book of
Kings, because of Charlemagne's success. Alcuin the court
scholar often called him 'David'. In a similar way, the Franks
had been naming their children Aeneas, Hector and other names
out of the Iliad. This does not mean they were trojans.
A number of Carolingian scholars could read hebrew and even
converse with Jews in their own language: Theodulf of Orleans
(d.821) and Amalar of Metz are just 2 examples. Moreover
there was greater access to the court for Jews during this
period, and it was probably the Jews themselves who
protested about the presence of manzers.
There is an early ninth century text (c.800/20) which lists
manzers (_manzeres_) among the 'worthless and notorious'
persons to be excluded from legal proceedings at the
royal palace (of Charlemagne or Louis the Pious), along
with actors, liars, jestors, and concubines.
> It may just
> have been deemed (by someone with a smidgeon of culture) an exotic and
> therefore genteel way to mention the count's irregular birth.
>
I think 'Ebles Manzer' appears in just one source: the chronicle
of Ademar of Chabannes (c.1030) Bk III, ch 23. Ademar also calls
Arnald II Ct of Angouleme (d.c.989?) 'Manzer' as well (ch. 28).
He says both were born from concubines. Ademar was also the author
of some very anti-Jewish sermons, and though he may not have known
any Hebrew necessarily, he probably was well acquainted with the
worst term of abuse which could be used at a Jew. Just as many
around the world today can't speak english but can still tell
someone to ******** etc.
A lot of the singular things found in Ademar's writings are to be
explained by the workings of his own mind. This may one of them! The
term 'manzer' is only found in the revised text of his chronicle: the
first version doesn't use it. A recent book by the American
historian R.Landes (I don't recall the exact title) discusses
exactly why Ademar wrote the things he did.
> Nat Taylor
Matt
Don Stone
> "Never Mind," said the Church Lady.
"Never mind," said Rosanne Rosannadanna.
"Well, isn't that special," said the Church Lady.
-- DS
D. Spencer Hines
Thank you Don. You are Always Right on the Money. I confess that I was
on foreign assignment during much of the run of that program [and I also
confess that I don't remember the name of the bloody thing] and I was
pulling back a distant and obviously erroneously blurred memory. I
think I saw parts of three or four episodes.
Your memory is, *au contraire*, impeccable.
Thank you for the correction. I hope to see the show in reruns some
day---in my 90's perhaps. It was supposedly a blastedly good series.
--
D. Spencer Hines---"Some circumstantial evidence is very strong, as when
you find a trout in the milk." --- Henry David Thoreau
[1817-1862]---Journal---11 Nov 1854---[1906]