Longchamp of Wilton, co. Hereford

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The...@aol.com

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May 23, 2002, 12:41:46 AM5/23/02
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Wednesday, 22 May, 2002

Dear Douglas, Cris, et al.,

In recent posts by yourselves and others, entries from the Yearbooks
(reign of Edward I I believe) were introduced which appeared to demonstrate
relationships between the Longchamp and Grey (Wilton) families, and also Grey
(Wilton) and Mortimer. Two items which had not been resolved in the course
of those threads were:

1. The identification of 'W' as the father of
Maud de Longchamp, heiress of Wilton, co.
Hereford and wife of Sir Reynold de Grey of
Ruthin, co. Denbigh & c. (d. 1308).

2. The identification of the manor of 'C', in
dispute between the King on the one hand, and
Sir Reynold and his wife Maud on the other.

The manor in question has not been identified to date, and wonder how
this might eventually be accomplished. However, it seems certain that the
Yearbook entries include an erroneous individual ('W') in the lineage of Maud
de Longchamp.

I have compared the account of the family of Longchamp in Dugdale
[Baronage, pp. 593-4; quoted in part in previous thread] to the records of
the royal grants for fairs and markets at Wilton, co. Hereford and find the
Dugdale account to be accurate

Account Per Details re:
Dugdale Fairs and Markets

1. Henry de held Wilton,
Longchamp 12 Hen. II (1165) ;
6 Joh. (1204) grant of market to
'Henry de Long Campo'
26 Sept 1205 [1]
died
13 Joh. (1211/2)

2. Henry de held Wilton : grant of fair and
Longchamp market 'to be held
at the manor'
8 Sept 1231 [2]

3. Maud de held Wilton : grant of fair and
Longchamp & market 'to be held
Reynold de at the manor'
Grey 1257 [3]


There seems no support for an individual, either 'W' or 'William
FitzHugh', to be placed within the above generations. The FitzHugh
identified elsewhere (Burke's as I recall) has no documentation to explore; I
would suggest that the individual 'W' is an erroneous identification, similar
to the Yearbook entries' renaming of Joan as Maud, Maud as Joan, & c. as
noted by Douglas Richardson in the earlier posts of those entries.

Most logically, this would be an understandable outgrowth of actual
relationships if William de Longchamp, identified by Dugdale as 'the Son of
Henry de Longcamp' [Baronage, p. 594], and by Dugdale and others as the (2nd)
husband of Petronilla de Craon, was the brother of the second Henry de
Longchamp. The confusion of the compiler of the Yearbook entries (or of the
original writers of the entries) would then be certainly understandable.

The following chart is then based on the account of Dugdale, as modified
by the above identifications.


Hugh de Longchamp
of Wilton, co. Hereford
d. bef 1155
I
I
Hugh de Longchamp
d. bef 1165
________________I _________________
I I I
Henry de Longchamp = Maud de William de
Sheriff of Herefords. I Cantelou Cantelou
& Worcs.; d. 1212 I d. 1239
_____________________I________ - had wardship
I I of Henry 'the
I I_______ younger' [4]
I I
2) Henry de = Joan = 1) Thomas de William de
Longchamp I Birkin Longchamp
d bef 1258 I dsp 1230 = Petronilla de
I I Craon
_______I I
I I
Maud de = Sir Reynold de Henry de = Sibyl de
Longchamp I Grey; d. 1308 Longchamp I Heringaude
I I
_________I_______________________ I
I I I
John de Grey Sir Edmund = Joan Alice
2nd Lord Grey de Mortimer I de Grey = Roger de
d. 1323 I Pedwardyne
I I
I I
from whom, from whom,
Lords Grey (Wilton, Earls of March
Ruthin) Kings of England, 1460-70,
Lords Moels 1471- to date
Lords Dinham, & c.


Good luck, and good hunting.

John *


* John P. Ravilious

NOTES :
[1] Rotuli Litterarum Clausarum, i, p. 51.
[2] Close Rolls of the Reign of Henry III, Vol. I (1902)
[3] Calendar of Charter Rolls, Vol. I (1903), p. 477
[4] Pipe Roll, Hereford' in Wall', p. 158 as cited by
Cris Nash, SGM, FitzUrse and de Cantelou/Cantilupe

John Ravilious

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May 23, 2002, 10:54:15 AM5/23/02
to
Thursday, 23 May, 2002

Hello All,

Please note correction to the genealogical chart below (re:
descendants of Joan de Grey).

John


The...@aol.com wrote in message news:<39.277e1c2...@aol.com>...


> Wednesday, 22 May, 2002
>
>
>
> Dear Douglas, Cris, et al.,
>
> In recent posts by yourselves and others, entries from the Yearbooks
> (reign of Edward I I believe) were introduced which appeared to demonstrate
> relationships between the Longchamp and Grey (Wilton) families, and also Grey
> (Wilton) and Mortimer. Two items which had not been resolved in the course
> of those threads were:
>
> 1. The identification of 'W' as the father of
> Maud de Longchamp, heiress of Wilton, co.
> Hereford and wife of Sir Reynold de Grey of
> Ruthin, co. Denbigh & c. (d. 1308).
>


<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<snip >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

> from whom, ***** Isolde de Mortimer *******
> Lords Grey (Wilton, * (identification in dispute - see SGM archives)
> Ruthin) * FROM WHOM I SHOW, Hugh de Audley, Earl of
> Lords Moels * Gloucester, d. 1347; Earls of Stafford from
> Lords Dinham, & c. * 1372; Lords Neville (Raby) from 1367
> **************************************************

Cristopher Nash

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May 26, 2002, 9:47:35 AM5/26/02
to
Hi John --

This sketch is extremely helpful, if only as grounding for more work!

I see with gratitude you've brought up the Henrici de Longo Campo
element I was holding my counsel [breath?] about. (Hope you
appreciated my self-restraint!)

Though I obviously expect no relevant discussion since her
date-terminus is way too early, I'm especially looking forward to our
reviewing/illuminating your Maud(lin?) thoughts here in the light of
any sources Keats-Rohan may yield in _Domesday Descendants_, since
it's long been a Grey area.

Cheers,

Cris


John Ravilious <The...@aol.com> wrote --


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