Carolingian table in the Munich manuscript

Stewart Baldwin

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Mar 14, 2002, 2:11:43 PM3/14/02

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An early genealogical table of the Carolingians and the early Saxon
emperors appears in an eleventh century manuscript from Munich, and is
an important primary source for the ancestry of Kunigund, wife of the
Holy Roman Emperor Henry II, and daughter of Siegfried of Luxemburg.
It was printed in Monumenta Germaniae Historica 2, 314, and can be
downloaded at the Gallica site [http://gallica.bnf.fr/] by those who
do not have access to MGH. I have presented the table below with as
much accuracy as a constant-width font will alow on the number of
lines available. The genealogical table is printed as a single table,
but is divided here into four pieces because of spacing limits. The
top of the table is given first, and the bottom part of the table is
given in three "columns" from left to right, attached in the way
indicated by the numbers [1], [2], [3]. There were three notes on the
table, all relating to the pre-Charlemagne part, which I have left
out. I have tried to keep all spacing reasonably close to the
original appearance of the table.

TOP:

BOTTOM, COLUMN l:

BOTTOM, COLUMN 2:

BOTTOM, COLUMN 3:

[3]
|
Hludowicus rex Germaniae,
magnus rex.
_______________|________________
| | |
Hludowicus Karlomannus Karolus
rex Ostro- rex Baioa- rex
franciae. riae, invi- Alaman-
ctissimus. niae.
|
Arnulfus rex Baioariae
et Franciae.
____________|____________
| |
Zouentibaldus Hludowicus rex
rex Lota- Ostrofranciae.
riensium. quo regnante ma-
xima Baioariorum
interfeccio facta;
post quem nullus
prosapiae istius re-
gale solium ultra
possedit. Postea
Chounradus rex
effectus qui filios
proprios reges fie-
ri nolens, regem
constituit Heinri-
cum praesidere.
Henricus imperator.
______________|________
| |
Heinricus dux Otto imperator.
Baioarie. |
| Otto imperator.
Heinricus dux |
Baioarie. Otto imperator.
|
Heinricus dux
Baioariae
Romanorum im-
perator.

COMMENTS

The most obvious concern would be the accuracy of the table. I have
noted only the following errors:

1. The first generation at the very top of the table is questionable.

2. In Column 1, Bertha was a daughter of Lothar, and not of his
brother Louis.

3. In Column 1, Hugh was a son of the younger Lothar, and not of the
elder Lothar.

4. There are some errors in the titles given to certain individuals
(e.g., it is not correct to call Charles the Bald king of France AND
SPAIN).

Are there are any other errors in the table not noted above? Has
anybody in the group ever examined the original manuscript of this
table? If so, does MGH give an accurate representation?

This table is discussed in more detail in the "Siegfired of Luxemburg"
thread.

Stewart Baldwin

Nathaniel Taylor

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Mar 14, 2002, 8:16:10 PM3/14/02

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In article <3c90ef5c...@news.mindspring.com>, sba...@mindspring.com
(Stewart Baldwin) wrote:

>An early genealogical table...

<snip>

>...Has

>anybody in the group ever examined the original manuscript of this
>table? If so, does MGH give an accurate representation?

It may be one of those discussed by Nora Gedeke in _Zeugnisse bildlicher
Darstellung der Nachkommenschaft Heinrichs I_. Arbeiten zur
Frühmittelalterforschung, 22. Berlin, New York: Walter de Gruyter, 1992.
These genealogical tables of the Carolingians & Saxons mostly derive from
a family of MSS apparently created in the 11th century. As such, I
wouldn't make too much of these tables as sources for accurate info. on
the earyl Carolingians. I have collected slides of some of several of
these tables; let me check if I have one of the table typeset in the MGH.

Let me look up my stuff on this.

Nat Taylor

Nathaniel Taylor

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Mar 14, 2002, 10:30:53 PM3/14/02

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In article <ntaylor-1403...@mid-tgn-nop-vty36.as.wcom.net>,
nta...@post.harvard.edu (Nathaniel Taylor) wrote:

I did not take notes on Gakeke's discussion of the Munich MS, though
surely it would have discussed it. Since she didn't reproduce it as a
plate, maybe it has been destroyed or lost since the MGH edited it in
1829. Gadeke has a plate of the earliest extant stemma in this tradition,
one from the time of Henry IV:

Trier, Stadtbiblithek, Cod. 1709, ff. 72-5 (a sort of four-page
foldout on parchment)

This gives the Carolingian genealogy precisely as in the Munich MS (with
plain text in roundels; no bust portraits as in the later versions),
except the right-hand section ends with Louis; the Saxons are in another
table on the facing page. I suspect this was true too in the Munich MS,
though the typesetters for the MGH just sort of ran them togeter.

The important thing for your purposes is that this MS (and others copied
in turn from it) has the same info. for Kunigonde's descent.

N.B. there are some interesting errors (i.e. drawing the lines between
people differently) and bald false additions in some of the later MSS.
The history of these charts is a subject in itself: see Gadeke.

Nat Taylor

Albert B. Bach

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Mar 16, 2002, 3:33:10 AM3/16/02

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http://gallica.bnf.fr/scripts/ConsultationTout.exe?E=0&O=N093430

This link will take you direct to Volume 2.

On the left go to page 314, check, and you'll be taken to the table.

Otherwise if you use the link Stewart you need to search for the title.

A real find. Thanks Stewart.

sba...@mindspring.com (Stewart Baldwin) wrote in message news:<3c90ef5c...@news.mindspring.com>...