Jordan de Thornhill's father-in-law, Richard fitz Roger

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The...@aol.com

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Dec 20, 2005, 8:48:06 PM12/20/05
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Tuesday, 20 December, 2005

Dear MichaelAnne, Merilyn, Tony, David, Brom, et al.,

Thanks to our friends at Google, the following extract from The
Yorkshire Archaeological and Topographical Journal concerning the
issue of Asolf or Esulf (de Holdsworth) was noted today:

' Although Jordan, the eldest son, seems to have held Thornhill
of the honour of Wakefield in the time of Earl Hameline
(1163-1202, Mon. Angl. i. 406), and witnessed the charter of
Adeliza de Rumeli with Adam fitz Sweyn. Jordan de Thornul m.
a dau. of Ric. fitz Roger, and had with her a carucate of land
in Lancashire, which he held of the king. He was dead 1194,
and the Thornhills are either descended from his son Richard,
or, according to pedigrees, from another son, Jordan. ' [1]

This is the first statement I have found identifying a spouse
of one of the earlier Thornhills.

At present I have found only two Richards (fitz Roger) that come
close to being a chronological and/or geographical match:

1. Richard fitz Roger, of Woodplumpton in Amounderness.

2. Richard fitz Roger, son of Roger le Bigod and Adeliza
de Tony, and younger brother of Hugh le Bigod, 1st Earl
of Norfolk (d. bef 9 Mar 1176). His son, Roger fitz
Richard, of Warkworth, Northumberland (d. 1178) and
immediate descendants have been discussed regularly in
SGM posts.

Richard fitz Roger of Woodplumpton is a bit late to be a good
candidate. He was alive in 1191, and died sometime before 26
Feb 1201; further, of his five daughters, three (Margaret, Quenild,
and Amuria) are not known to have been married, and the husbands for
the other two (Avice m. William de Millom, and Maud m. Robert de
Stockport) do not obviously include Jordan de Thornhill [2].
Richard fitz Roger, of the Bigod family, has a less detailed
biography (in my database anyway), providing more fertile ground
in the absence of facts at present, and also a well-known group
of families to which the Thornhills may be related (if his
daughter was the wife of Jordan de Thornhill, that is).

There are certainly other possibilities, Richard not being an
uncommon name ca. 1100-1200. Perhaps the statement (unfortunately
undocumented by Ellis) that a carucate of land in Lancashire was the
maritagium of the daughter of Richard fitz Roger, and was held in
chief, will lead to a true identification of the mother of Richard
de Thornhill [3].

Cheers,

John *

NOTES

[1] Alfred S. Ellis, "Dodsworth's Yorkshire Notes (Agbrigg)" in
Yorkshire Archaeological and Topographical Journal (London:
printed for the Association by Bradbury, Agnew and Co.,
Whitefriars, E.C., 1884), VIII:487.


[2] A History of the County of Lancashire (Victoria County History
series) (1908), II:107-111.


[3] Among the details known at this date re: Jordan de Thornhill
and his son Richard:

A. Jordan de Thornhill, of Thornhill and Hunsworth, co. Yorks.

' Jordan son of Essulf', constable of Wakefield, 1174-78

' On 25 January 1194-5 he and his son Richard were granted by
final concord the land of Thornhill, Hunsworth and East
Bierley by Richard de Tong for the service of a quarter of a
knight's fee and 10s yearly. ' [Clay p. 91, cites EYC
iii, no. 1767]

B. Richard de Thornhill, of Thornhill and Hunsworth, co. Yorks.

' Richard son of Jordan ', witness to a grant [dated
c1199-c1216] to his brother Jordan :
' William, son of Pain de Denebj, to Jordan, son of Jordan de
Thornhill, of two bovates of land in Denebj, held of Simon,
son of Michael de Denebi, paying annually half a pound of
cumin, or two-pence.
Witnesses, John de Birkin, and Roger his brother, Germanns
de Thornhill, Richard, son of Jordan, William son of Thomas,
William son of John, Robert son of Dolrin, Adam de Mirefield,
Simon de Denebj, John de Thornhill, who wrote the Charter.'
- A2A, West Yorkshire Archive Service, Calderdale: Papers of
the Armytage family of Kirklees Hall [KM/1 - KM/857], KM/2

identified as father of John de Thornhill, and ancestor of
the subsequent Thornhills of Thornhill [Clay, EYF 91]


* John P. Ravilious

Merilyn Pedrick

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Dec 20, 2005, 11:11:08 PM12/20/05
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Dear John et al
You might be interested in the following excerpt from material sent to me
several years ago by a Freda Murray, whom I've since not been able to
contact. She did a huge amount of work on the Betham family which
straightened out many an error in the Betham tree I unearthed in 1990 in New
Zealand.
From this it appears that all five daughters of Richard fitz Roger were
married.
Merilyn Pedrick
Aldgate, South Australia

THOMAS DE BETHAM, m Amuira, daughter of Richard Fitz-Roger, Lord of Wood
Plumpton (whose wife was heir of Dunstan Banister)
TAKEN FROM A HISTORY OF WHITTINGTON:

Newton with Docker

The third of the manor of Whittington was that now
known as Newton with Docker and appears to have belonged to a native family
which had accepted the Norman king. Ravenkil son of Raganald is the first
of this family to be named, as he attested the Charter of Roger of Poitou to
the monks of Lancaster in 1094 (Farrer, Lacs. Pipe Rolls p 43) he was also
a holder of lands in Woodplumpton. His son Roger gave lands in Linacre to
the Hospital of Jerusalem and was father of Richard who died in 1201 (Ibid,
pp 43,44). This Richard, son of Roger, married Margaret daughter and
co-heir of Thurstan Banastre and was the founder of Lytham Priory - Margaret
is named in her husband's charter of 1-5 Richard 1 (1189-94)(Ibid, pp. 346,
348). Richard had five daughters and was fined £100 for marrying his eldest
daughter, Matilda, without the King's licence; this fine is accounted for
in the Pipe Roll of 1179-80. His children were:

(i) MATILDA, married to Sir Robert de Stockport, who
died in 1205, leaving a son and heir Robert de Stockport, whose inquisition
post mortem is dated 27th March 1249, who also left a son and heir, Robert
de Stockport of full age, who had livery of his lands by writ dated 4th May
1248, having given 33s 4d for his relief. He died in 1292, leaving a
daughter and heiress Joan, who married Sir. Nicholas de Eton.

(ii) QUINILDA, was married twice, first to Jordan de
Thornhill and secondly to Roger Gernet of Halton. She however died without
issue in 1252, when an inqusition post mortem, held on 13th May, found that
her heirs were Robert de Stockport and Sir Ralph de Bethum, great-nephew and
nephew respectively, and that she held in chief of the heirs of Sir William
de Lindesey 5 1/4 bovates of land in Whittington by the service of 4s 5d.
In June 1252 her heirs paid 40s and had livery of her lands.

(iii) MARGARET married in 1206 to Hugh de Morton,
died s.p.

(iv) AVICE, married in 1201 to William de Millum;
both died s.p before 1235.

(v) AMURIA, married, before 1206 to Thomas de Bethum
on whom an inquisition post mortem was held on 17th April 1249, which found
Sir Ralph de Bethum to he his son and heir.

In 1252 this Sir Ralph was found to be one of the
heirs of his aunt the Lady Quinilda. He died 8th March 1254 and his
daughter Joan, who was 7 1/2 years old, was found to be his heir by
inquisition post mortem held on 8th June 1254, when it was stated that he
held 7 1/2 bovates of land in Whittington of Walter de Lindesey by the
service of 6s 8d. Joan however died shortly afterwards and her uncle Robert
brother to Sir Ralph was found heir and had livery of his lands on 5th
March 1257. He was living in 1283 and was dead in 1297, when his heirs
rendered 8s 8d for the lands in Botle. He had a son and heir Thomas de
Bethum, who appears in an inquisition a.q.d. of the year 1300 regarding the
proposed gift of the church of Whittington to the Prior of Cartmel. This
Thomas was knight of the shire for Westmorland in 30 Edward I and in 2,4,5
and 7 Edward II. Thomas was succeeded by his brother Sir Ralph de Bethum,
who is named in the extent of the lands of the Duke of Lancaster made 20 May
1346 and in the minister's account of the same in 1348.

1206: Thomas de Beethum and Amera his wife proffer 40 marks for
having her reasonable part of the land which was Richard son of Roger's;
Lancs. Pipe Rolls.203 (the Antiquities of Kendale page 214

1206: Thomas de Bethum holds two carucates in Bootle (Botlega)
co. Lancaster for 8s 8d: Red Bk of the Exchequer, 572 (the Antiquities of
Kendale page 214)

1212: Thomas de Bethum held lands in co. Lancaster in marriage
with the daughter (and coheir) of Richard son of Roger, thegn of
Woodplumpton: Bk. of Fees, 210, Lancs. Inq. XLVIII, 22. In 1243 Thomas de
Bethum held the same lands. ib.149 (the Antiquities of Kendale page 216)

1216: The son or daughter and heir of Thomas de Bethum was to be
delivered to the king as hostage by Gilbert Fitz-Reinfrid for his fidelity:
(R. de Finibus (Rec.Com)571 (page 216 The Antiquities of Kendale) See Ralph
de Bethum.
1226: Quindene of Easter. Thomas de Bethum was summoned to
answer Adam de Yeland and Matthew de Redman by right he claims common of
pasture in their land in Yeland, seeing that they have no common in his land
nor do service to him. Thomas says that he claims no common in the manor of
Yeland with them unless they wish to have common with him, unless by chance
they wish to draw to themselves the wood and lands of the manor of Bethum
wherefore of this he does not wish in this writ to reply. Thomas goes sine
die (Cur. Reg. R 95,m 2d (Antiquities of Kendale page 216)

1228: Thomas de Bethum was appointed one of the perambulators of
the forest of co. Lancaster (Close R. 1228 p 100; Cal. Pat R. 1340 p 427
(Antiquities of Kendale page 216)

1244: Lancashire Assize Rolls 30-31 Henry III M 12 (1244-45)
relative to a suite brought against Sir Thomas de Betham for exercising
right of common in "Yholand" through its lord, Matthew de Redman, exercised
no such rights in Betham. Sir Thomas's case was "That his ancestors SINCE
THE CONQUEST and for time without mind, have wont to common in the lands of
the ancestors of Alice and Matthew in the said Vill, without any reciprocal
rights" (taken from A House of Letters edited by Ernest Betham)

1246: Alice wife of Robert de Coygners appoints an attorney
against Thomas de Bethum in a plea.(Lancs. Assize R. (Rec.Soc) XLVII, 41,47
(Antiquities of Kendal p 216)

1249: Thomas de Bethum held at his death divers lands in co.
Lancaster. Ralph de Bethum, his son was his next heir (Lancs. Inq. (Rec
Soc) XLVIII 170; Excerpt e R Fin ii 53)

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From: The...@aol.com
Date: 12/21/05 12:18:08
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Subject: Jordan de Thornhill's father-in-law, Richard fitz Roger

The...@aol.com

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Dec 21, 2005, 1:57:08 PM12/21/05
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Dear Merilyn,

Many thanks for that detailed (and informative) response.

It seems most likely that the Jordan de Thornhill who
married Quenilda, dau. of Richard fitz Roger (of Woodplumpton)
was the son of Jordan fitz Essulf, and therefor brother and not
father to Richard de Thornhill (ancestor of the subsequent
Thornhills). Given Quenilda's subsequent marriage and date of
death (with an IPM in 1252) this works better with the known
chronology, esp. as Richard de Thornhill's son Sir John died
before 1260. Certainly her IPM leaves little doubt that she
left no Thornhill progeny.

Some additional information (with evidently no extended
genealogical value), I show re: Thurstan de Banaster that
Margery or Margaret, wife of Richard fitz Roger, was coheiress
of her father: her purparty included Little Appleby, co. Leics.
as indicated by Farrer:

'Margaret the mother of Quenilda;...
'Quenilda's mother was daughter of Thurstan Banastre.' Farrer,
Honors and Knights Fees II:57 (citing Leics.Arch.Soc. xi, 428)

Farrer also wrote that ' Roger Gernet and Quenilda his
wife surrendered to William de Vernon all their share in
(Little) Appleby [co. Leics.] held by inheritance from Margaret
the mother of Quenilda;..' [Farrer, HKF II:57].

Thanks again for your ready reply, and resolution.

Cheers,


John

Sutliff

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Dec 21, 2005, 3:36:16 PM12/21/05
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VCH Lancs III:32 identifies Richard FitzRoger of Woodplumpton as father of
these daughters and he is in turn identified as son of Roger FitzRavenkil of
Bootle, Lancs.

I do not have a satisfactory source, but Eleanor de Beetham of Betham,
Westmoreland, daughter of Thomas de Beetham and Amuria may have married back
into the Banastre of Bretherton, Lancs and thus been mother of Thomas de
Banastre d. 1299. I have not yet investigated to see if there are any
chronological problems with this placement or its validity.

Hap

<The...@aol.com> wrote in message news:211.f99546...@aol.com...

Todd A. Farmerie

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Dec 23, 2005, 12:38:42 AM12/23/05
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The...@aol.com wrote:

> 2. Richard fitz Roger, son of Roger le Bigod and Adeliza
> de Tony, and younger brother of Hugh le Bigod, 1st Earl
> of Norfolk (d. bef 9 Mar 1176). His son, Roger fitz
> Richard, of Warkworth, Northumberland (d. 1178) and
> immediate descendants have been discussed regularly in
> SGM posts.

This differs significantly from the usual derivation of the Warkworth
line, Roger fil. Richard usually being shown as son of Richard fil.
Eustace. I took a quick look at the archives, and failed to find
anything suggesting this. Did I miss something?

taf

John P. Ravilious

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Dec 23, 2005, 6:36:43 AM12/23/05
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Dear Todd,

Katherine Keats-Rohan identified 'Roger filius Ricardi de
Wrkewrthe' as 'nepos' of Earl Hugh Bigod, and as a nephew of 'Thomas de
Candelent' [1]. On the same subject, in discussing the family of Roger
le Bigod and Adeliza de Tony, heiress of Belvoir, Judith A. Green wrote
in Prosopon X [note (24)]:


' Keats-Rohan, 'Belvoir'; cf. Complete Peerage, IX, 578. Roger
Bigod's charter for Rochester cathedral priory referred to his wife
Adeliza and his sons and daughters. The charter was witnessed byWilliam
Bigod our son', Humfrey Bigod, and Gunnora and Matilda our
daughters'. There was no mention here of Hugh and Cecily, nor of
another unnamed child, parent of Roger FitzRichard, lord of Warkworth:
C.T. Clay, The ancestry of the early Lords of Warkworth',
Archaeologia Aeliana, 4th ser., 32 (1954), 68. Hugh and Cecily were
clearly the children of Adeliza de Tosny as each inherited Tosny
estates, but was the latter a second identically named wife? Hugh
described Gunnora as his sister in a charter for Norwich cathedral
priory, Complete Peerage, IX, 578. Matilda could have had a claim on
the honour of Belvoir, because her son William II d'Aubigny the
butler for a short time held the title earl of Lincoln, a county where
he otherwise had no interests, R.H.C. Davis, King Stephen, 3rd edn
(London, 1990), p. 134. Keats-Rohan argued that Hugh was provided for
from the Bigod lands which he inherited after the death of his brother
William in the White Ship, plus, at some stage, the Tosny lands of his
uncle Berengar, and that Gunnora and Matilda had been provided for on
marriage so that the honour of Belvoir could be used to endow Cecily,
the youngest daughter. In Aristocratic women' (pp. 70-1), I accepted
the likelihood that Roger married twice, basically because this seemed
to make better sense of the fact that Hugh and Cecily but not their
siblings inherited Tosny lands: see also Green, Aristocracy, pp. 374-5.
After discussion with Keats-Rohan, I can see that the charter evidence
is inconclusive, and if anything the presumption must be slightly in
favour of one wife, not two, in which case the descent of Belvoir to
Cecily is more striking.' [1]


I am not aware of any documentation for the 'Richard fitz Eustace'
affiliation you mentioned. If this has been revised (or found to be in
error), please advise.

Cheers, and Happy Holidays!

John

NOTES

[1] Domesday Descendants 948, cites C. Clay, 'The ancestry of the
early lords of Warkworth', Archaeologia Aeliana, 4th ser. 32 (1954),
65-71]

[1] Judith A. Green, "The Descent of Belvoir", Prosopon X (1999), pp.
2, 5. URL for .pdf file:

http://users.ox.ac.uk/~prosop/prosopon/issue10-2.pdf

FDP...@aol.com

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Dec 23, 2005, 7:04:16 AM12/23/05
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Dear Hap:

William Farrer in his *Records of Kendale* Vol II, page 266

*The mesne manor of Farleton appears to have been given by Thomas de
Bethum in the time of Henry III to his daughter, Eleanor, who held it
in 1254. It appears to have passed to Eleanor's sister, Hawise, the
wife of Thomas Banastre of Bretherton, co. Lane., who had received a
considerable maritagium in Beetham. Thomas Banastre their son, was
father of Adam Banastre, whose daughter Katherine married John de
Harrington, younger, of Farleton in Lonsdale. Lands in Farleton in
Kendale were held by a local family. The first was Thomas de Farleton
in the reign ot John and the last was Ralph de Farleton, named in
1349, who had a daughter Cecily, named in 1352. Ralph appears to have
alienated his lands befole 1343 to John de Harrington, younger, named
above, son of Sir John de Harrington of Aldingham. The younger John
died in 1359 seised ot the manor.*

Cheers,

Dix Preston

Sutliff

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Dec 23, 2005, 2:19:57 PM12/23/05
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Many thanks. Right family, wrong daughter. So glad that this is one of those
realtionships that may actually be valid.

Thanks again,

Hap
<FDP...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1135339456.0...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

Todd A. Farmerie

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Dec 23, 2005, 2:23:13 PM12/23/05
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OK, but I don't see how any of Green's writing bears on the existence of
a Richard, son of Roger Bigod.


> I am not aware of any documentation for the 'Richard fitz Eustace'
> affiliation you mentioned. If this has been revised (or found to be in
> error), please advise.

Don't know that there is any - KR, for example, avoids the issue. That
being said, I don't think the lack of documentation justifies an
alternative that is likewise without documentary support. As far as I
can tell, the only evidence for this Richard fil. Roger Bigod is the
fact that Roger fil. Richard was nepos of Hugh Bigod, but we all know
the inherent ambiguity in the term nepos.

taf

WJho...@aol.com

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Dec 23, 2005, 2:45:18 PM12/23/05
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In a message dated 12/23/05 3:44:49 AM Pacific Standard Time, the...@aol.com
writes:

<< ' Keats-Rohan, 'Belvoir'; cf. Complete Peerage, IX, 578. Roger
Bigod's charter for Rochester cathedral priory referred to his wife
Adeliza and his sons and daughters. The charter was witnessed byWilliam
Bigod our son', Humfrey Bigod, and Gunnora and Matilda our
daughters'. There was no mention here of Hugh and Cecily, nor of
another unnamed child, parent of Roger FitzRichard, lord of Warkworth:
C.T. Clay, The ancestry of the early Lords of Warkworth',
Archaeologia Aeliana, 4th ser., 32 (1954), 68. Hugh and Cecily were
clearly the children of Adeliza de Tosny >>


Can this charter be dated?
Thanks
Will Johnson

WJho...@aol.com

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Dec 23, 2005, 2:52:43 PM12/23/05
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Thank's for that bit I was missing, that Maud (Matilda), wife of William
d'Aubigny, was also daughter of Roger Bigod, 2nd Earl of Norfolk (d 1107).

With that I can add Roger and his ancestors, as ancestors of James Claypoole
the Americn colonist.

Will Johnson

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