Charlemagne
Gerald L. Blanchard
Two issues:
1. Pere Anselm in his 8 volume treatise on the French nobility states
that Tertulle, First Count of Anjou married a Petronille, who he
believes was related to Hugh, son of Charlemagne by Regina. Any
thoughts on this?
2. I have seen a number of ancestry lists for Charlemagne. Any ideas on
how far back they are credible and when they pass into myth or
speculation?
Jerry in Atlanta
Nathaniel Taylor
In article <4r68le$p...@peach.america.net>, "Gerald L. Blanchard"
<jer...@america.net> wrote:
> 1. Pere Anselm in his 8 volume treatise on the French nobility states
> that Tertulle, First Count of Anjou married a Petronille, who he
> believes was related to Hugh, son of Charlemagne by Regina. Any
> thoughts on this?
This error has been widely repeated and showed up on this list last
October/November, and this reply is recycled from what I said back then.
Aside from the uncertainty of the early generations of the Angevin family,
there are two Hughs who have been consistently confused here.
The man known as "Hugh the Abbot" (d. 886), was not the same as Hugh, the
illegitimate son of Charlemagne (who was also an abbot), who died in 844.
Hugh the Abbot was generally believed to have died s.p.. His
identification as the father of Petronilla, wife of Tertullus, ancestor of
the Angevins, is based on a mistaken reading of the medieval text "Gesta
consulum andegavorum", edited by Louis Halphen and Rene Poupardin (Paris,
1913). The text actually says that she was a *relative* of Hugh the Abbot
and doesn't say he was her father. This link has been most recently
investigated by Professor Bernard Bachrach of the University of Minnesota
in various articles he has published on the Angevins, as well as in his
book _Fulk Nerra: the Neo-Roman Consul_ (Berkeley, 1993), see for example
table at p. 262. Bernard Bachrach discusses the accuracy of the chronicle
text, and draws a slantwise dotted line between Hugh the Abbot and
Petronilla in his genealogical tables of the Angevins. But at any rate
Hugh, possible relative of Petronilla, was not the son of Charlemagne.
That was another Hugh, abbot of Saint-Quentin, who died in battle on June
14, 844 (see Bernard W. Scholz, _Carolingian Chronicles (Ann Arbor, 1970),
p. 207, note 7).
Hugh the Abbot (d. 886) was the son of Conrad, count of Paris and Auxerre
(d. ca. 862), of the Welf family (see Europaische Stammtafeln 3:736) and
Adelaide, daughter of Hugh, count of Tours (Adelaid married second Robert
the Strong, and was mother of the first Robertine kings Odo and Robert I,
who were thus Hugh the Abbot's half-brothers. Hugh of Tours was probably
of the Etichonid family (see Vollmer, "Die Etichonen" in Studien und
Vorarbeiten zur Geschichte des grossfrankischen Adels, ed. Gerd Tellenbach
(1957), especially the chart at p. 183).
It is through this Hugh of Tours (d. 826) that the given name "Hugh"
passed both to the Capetians, and (through the Welf brother of Hugh the
Abbot) to the early Burgundian dynasty (where it appeared in the person of
Hugh "the Black", Duke of Burgundy, d. 952), and also, through Adelaide's
sister's marriage to Emperor Lothar I, to the Carolingians and their
successors in Italy and Savoy.
I should add that Bernard Bachrach proposes further Carolingian ancestry for
the early Angevins (before the infusion brought by Adele de Vermandois,
wife of Geoffrey Greymantle) in his identification of Gerberga, wife of
Fulk the good, as daughter of Ratburnus, viscount of Vienne (a descendant
of Louis II, king of Italy) and Gerberga, granddaughter of Childebrand,
count of Autun (op. cit., table at p. 274 and text in chap. 1). It first
appeared in an article "Some observations on the origins of Countess
Gerberga of the Angevins: an essay in the application of the
Tellenbach-Werner Prosopographical Method." _Medieval Prosopography_ 7/2
(1986), 1-23.
Nat Taylor
Todd A. Farmerie
In a previous article, jer...@america.net (Gerald L. Blanchard) says:
>1. Pere Anselm in his 8 volume treatise on the French nobility states
>that Tertulle, First Count of Anjou married a Petronille, who he
>believes was related to Hugh, son of Charlemagne by Regina. Any
>thoughts on this?
>
There is a genealogical tradition accepted by some that Petronille (if she
existed) was daughter of "Hugh the Abbot". This was not Charlemagne's son
however, but a member of the Welf clan, brother of Conrad I of the Burgundy
lineage (if I recall correctly). I have not looked into the contemporary
evidence for these connections, so I don't trust them.
Todd
Todd A. Farmerie
In a previous article, jer...@america.net (Gerald L. Blanchard) says:
>1. Pere Anselm in his 8 volume treatise on the French nobility states
>that Tertulle, First Count of Anjou married a Petronille, who he
>believes was related to Hugh, son of Charlemagne by Regina. Any
>thoughts on this?
>
I have not looked into the contemporary documentation for any of these
relationships, but there is a traditional link between Petronille and "Hugh
the Abbot". This was not Charlemagne's son though. The Hugh in question
was a Welf, brother of Conrad I of the Burgundian line (if I recall
correctly). I suspect that there is no good source for this connection.
Todd
ic
nta...@fas.harvard.edu (Nathaniel Taylor) wrote:
>In article <4r68le$p...@peach.america.net>, "Gerald L. Blanchard"
><jer...@america.net> wrote:
>
>> that Tertulle, First Count of Anjou married a Petronille, who he
>> believes was related to Hugh, son of Charlemagne by Regina. Any
>> thoughts on this?
>
>October/November, and this reply is recycled from what I said back then.
>Aside from the uncertainty of the early generations of the Angevin family,
>there are two Hughs who have been consistently confused here.
>
>Nat Taylor
But what about Tertulle? Did he ever exist? Does anyone know
of any contemporary source that mentions him. I remember reading
that Ingelger, father of Fulk I, had a father called Tordulf or
Tortulf the Woodman, who is supposed to have received land
from Charles the Bald. Has this ever been verified? Even so
if this Tortulf is Tertulle, was he count of Anjou?
Nathaniel Taylor
I don't have these materials to hand, but for some reason Bachrach seemed
to accept the (late) evidence of the Gesta consulum andegavorum and
assumed that the named parents of Ingelger were real people--they may not
have been counts (or marquesses), but they probably were not 'woodmen'.
It was a common device of the twelfth-century comital genealogies to
attribute the line to someone who rose by merit, like a knight errant,
under the middle or later Carolingians.
Even if Tertullus and Petronilla are historical personages and the
testimony of the gesta is to be accepted, there is no known genealogical
link from Ingelger to Charlemagne, and that was the point of the original
post.
Nat Taylor
Gerald L. Blanchard
Pere Anselm suggests that Tertulle (a/k/a Torquat or Tortulfe) was a
Breton who lived in the diocese of Rennes. I haven't translated the
rest of what he says yet. I also noted when I wnet back to Anselm that
he does not suggest that Petronille is a descendant of Hughes l'Abbe but
is a relative of another Hugh, and he discusses the various theories
presented about her ancestry.
Jerry
Nathaniel Taylor
In article <4rm8am$l...@peach.america.net>, "Gerald L. Blanchard"
<jer...@america.net> wrote:
Anselme was much more canny than a lot of modern followers. Turton, and
others, made the Hugh/Petronilla relationship one of father/daughter, and
my response was (hastily) recycled from one to someone who had posted that
relationship as such. I'm not up on the current state of knowledge (or
guesses) regarding who Tertullus was, but you might want, if you're
interested, to read what Bernard Bachrach has to say, particularly in his
biography Fulk Nerra: Neo-Roman Consul (published two years ago, I think),
which covers the early Angevins in chapter 1, reviewing the original
sources and genealogical interpretations of the dynasty.
Nat Taylor
tomBodley
In article <ntaylor-0607...@cis-ts1-slip3.cis.brown.edu>, nta...@fas.harvard.edu says...
>
>In article <4rjafc$c...@news.ox.ac.uk>, ic <exet...@sable.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>> nta...@fas.harvard.edu (Nathaniel Taylor) wrote:
>> ><jer...@america.net> wrote:
>>
snip
>> of any contemporary source that mentions him. I remember reading
>> that Ingelger, father of Fulk I, had a father called Tordulf or
>> Tortulf the Woodman, who is supposed to have received land
>> from Charles the Bald. Has this ever been verified? Even so
>> if this Tortulf is Tertulle, was he count of Anjou?
>
>I don't have these materials to hand, but for some reason Bachrach seemed
>to accept the (late) evidence of the Gesta consulum andegavorum and
>assumed that the named parents of Ingelger were real people--they may not
>have been counts (or marquesses), but they probably were not 'woodmen'.
>It was a common device of the twelfth-century comital genealogies to
>attribute the line to someone who rose by merit, like a knight errant,
>under the middle or later Carolingians.
>
>Even if Tertullus and Petronilla are historical personages and the
>testimony of the gesta is to be accepted, there is no known genealogical
>link from Ingelger to Charlemagne, and that was the point of the original
>post.
>
>Nat Taylor
It is as you say the 12th century _Gesta Consulum_, which tells
the history of the Angevin dynasty from the 9th century, which
furnishes these genealogical details.
In this source, Tertulle was the son of Tortulf, who it says
was made royal forester at Limelle near Angers by Charles the
Bald. He rose to favour with the king, and his son Tertulle
became a _clientela regis_ at court, and received the benefice
or fief of Chateau-Landon in the Gatinais. But he was not a
count, only a _miles_. The king arranged his marriage to
Petronilla relative of Hugo the Abbot (d.886). Their son Ingelgar
married the grand-daughter of the lord of Amboise, who was also
the niece of Adalard Archbishop of Tours 875-91, and Raino of
Angers 880-905. He served first as viscount of Orleans, then
'prefect of Tours', before becoming Count of Anjou.
So goes the story. However the _Gesta_ is probably not a
reliable source for the 9th century, written as it was so far
removed from the period it describes, and under direction of
Fulk IV: as you say it is doubtful whether Tertulle or Petronilla
existed. Their names are unlikely for the 9th century. The
_gesta_ uses 12th century forms and langauge which would not
be the case if they were genuinely working from 9th century
materials or sources. Moreover even Ingelgar was never count
of Anjou: his son Fulk I only took that title in 929. The
_gesta_ seeks to legitimise the dynasty's ancestral control
of Anjou and the Loire valley, by connecting it to Charles
the Bald and earlier noble families. However in ascribing a
relationship with Hugo the abbot, it may preserve a tradition
that the ancesters of Fulk I served in the retinue of the
9th century Marquis's of Neustria; Robert the Strong (d.866),
Hugo the Abbot (866-86), Odo (886-8), Robert II (886-922).
As their deputy, Ingelgar may well have been viscount of
Orleans and then Tours. While I have yet to locate a Tortulf
or a Tertulle in the sources of the second half of the ninth
century, there are several Ingelgars. I shall keep looking.
tom