lines of Charlemagne, Robert the Bruce, and Campbells
kah...@ix.netcom.com
I have made some modifications to my genealogical web site that might be
of particular interest to the readers of soc.genealogy.medieval
site URL is http://members.aol.com/ftnkid/index.htm
Specifically, I have pages with:
graphical representations of descent of Robert the Bruce from William the
Conqueror;
graphical representations of"descent" of William the Conqueror from
Charlemagne (I KNOW, he isn't, but all his kids and descendants are!!!!)
detail of Alexander Magruder and Lady Margaret Campbell, both of whom
figure very prominently in the genealogies of thousands of people. Both
these names have been mentioned quite a few times on here. The last
"royal or noble" ancestor of this line is Archibald Campbell, the Second
Earl of Argyll, who fell at Flodden Field in 1513.
In addition, I have utilized some of the wisdom posted to this newsgroup
over the years on the website.....some musings on the whole veracity of
royal descendancy, plus other stuff. I have displayed all the pertinent
posting details, to ensure that proper attribution is given!!
I especially hope that y'all will closely examine the detail on the
pages, and LET ME KNOW if there is any missing or incorrect
detail.....and where to get extra details to "spice it up." Web
resources for such materials are especially requested!!
All my "new" stuff is prominently marked with animated "new" arrows,
natch!!!
http://members.aol.com/ftnkid/index.htm
Please visit! Hope you like it!
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
D. Spencer Hines
>Specifically, I have pages with:
>
>graphical representations of descent of Robert the Bruce from William the
>Conqueror;
>
>graphical representations of "descent" of William the Conqueror from
>Charlemagne (I KNOW, he isn't, but all his kids and descendants are!!!!)
"kahless"
Where did you ever get the absurd idea that William the Conqueror is not
descended from Charlemagne?
[Yes, it's probably better to hide your name if you are going to make an
assertion as ridiculous as that.]
Of course he is.
D. Spencer Hines
--
"Well, that's what I mean. You know, if all the people who are named
...deny it....That's all, I mean, I expect them to come looking into it and
interview you and everything, uh, but I just think that if everybody's on
record denying it you've got no problem.....I wonder if I'm going to be
blown out of the water with this. I don't see how they can...if they don't,
if they don't have pictures."
Governor Bill Clinton --- Telephonic Advice to Gennifer Flowers [1991]
Frank H. Johansen
But William the Conqueror IS a descendant of Charlemagne trough three
different lines! The descent goes as following:
1. Charlemagne (2 Apr 742-28 Jan 814); m. Hildegard von Allemanien
2. Pippin, King of Italy, Lord of Peronne and St.Quentin (Apr 773-8 Jul 810);
m. ?
3. Bernhard, King of Italy (ca.797-17 Apr 818); m. Kunigunde
4. Pippin, Count near Paris, Lord of Peronne and St.Quentin (ca.815-after
840)
5. Heribert I, Count of Vermandois (ca.850-6 Nov 907); m. ?
6a. Beatrix of Vermandois (ca.880-Mar 931); m. Robert, King of France
6b. Heribert II, Count of Vermandois (ca.880-23 Feb 943); m. Adela of
Neustria
7a. Hugues, Duke of Neustria (ca. 895-956); m. Hedwig of Saxony
7b. Ledgard of Vermandois; m. Guillaume I, Duke of Normady
7c (6b). Robert, Count of Meaux; m. Adelheid of Burgundy
8a . Emma of Francia (ca.945-after 18 Mar 968); m. Richard I, Duke of
Normandy
8b. Richard I, Duke of Normandy (933-20 Nov 996); m. Emma of Fracia
8c. Adele of Meaux (ca.950-974); m. Gauzfred, Count of Anjou
9ab. Richard II, Duke of Normandy (d. 28 Aug 1027); m. Judith of Brittany
9c. Eremgarde of Anjou; m. Conan, Duke of Brittany
10ab. Robert I, Duke of Normandy (ca.1000-22 Jul 1035); with Harlette
10c. Judith of Brittany (ca.982-1017); m. Richard II, Duke of Normandy
11ab. William I, King of England
11c. See 10ab.
12c. See 11ab.
FHJ
Nathaniel Taylor
In article <886959584....@dejanews.com>, kah...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>... http://members.aol.com/ftnkid/index.htm
...
>graphical representations of"descent" of William the Conqueror from
>Charlemagne (I KNOW, he isn't, but all his kids and descendants are!!!!)
Actually, William the Conqueror is descended from Charlemagne, through
Brittany, Anjou, and Vermandois.
>detail of Alexander Magruder and Lady Margaret Campbell.
>I especially hope that y'all will closely examine the detail on the
>pages, and LET ME KNOW if there is any missing or incorrect
>detail.....and where to get extra details to "spice it up."
My fervent wish for this and other gateway lineage websites is that you
see fit to provide source citations for the material you have put on the
page. For the Magruder descent from King Robert II, you should check your
material against, and then cite, the most authoritative and useful
sources: Charles G. Kurz & Thomas G. Magruder, Jr's "The Ancestral
History of Margaret Campbell of Keithick," _Yearbook of the American Clan
Gregor Society_, 62 (1978), 55-65; and their "The McGruder Lineage in
Scotland to Magruder Family in America," _Yearbook..._ 63 (1979), 53-71.
Since you follow Kurz & Magruder's correction of the Campbell part of this
lineage in your website (as opposed to the earlier versions in Wurts'
_Magna Charta_ or in Buck's _Pedigrees of Some of the Emperor
Charlemagne's Descendants_), I'm surprised you revert to an assertion from
Wurts in your identification of the first American Magruder's wife as
'Margaret Braithwaite.' Kurz & Magruder state that it was clearly
Magruder's wife Sarah (___) who was mother of his son Samuel; they also
note that "the tradition of Margaret Braithwaite as having been a wife of
Alexander Magruder cannot be documented" ("Ancestral History...", 63;
"McGruder Lineage", 68-69). They also clearly show that the antecedents,
for several generations, of the Scottish Alexander McGruder bore the name
McGruder, derived from "McCrouder" or "McCruiter", rather than "McGregor",
so you shouldn't misleadingly show the paternal line as being named
"McGregor", nor state that the name was changed as a proscription
following the battle of Worcester (there is no precedent or evidence for
this, and Kurz & Magruder doubt, for chronological reasons, that he could
have been at Worcester at all). Some other tidbits, like representing the
date on which Alexander Magruder and Margaret (Campbell) (Drummond) are
shown as man and wife in a contemporary document (25 May 1605), as their
wedding date, are also erroneous.
Finally, you may wish to take the responsibility to note for the visitors
to your website (though Kurz and Magruder don't state this as clearly as
*they* should have) that the identification of the Marylander as the son
of Alexander and Margaret (Campbell) (Drummond) Magruder, and thus the
validity of the whole gateway, is based purely on the coincidence of
names, approximate age, and the (not overwhelmingly conclusive)
geographical clues found in the names the Marylander gave to his
plantations. That Alexander Magruder & Margaret (Campbell) (Drummond)
(Magruder) (Drummond) had a son Alexander at all does not seem to be
supported by any explicit evidence; it is only suggested by the 1622
notice of an Alexander Magruder having been fined for "illegally carrying
arms and shooting deer and wildfowl" in the vicinity, after the elder
Alexander was known to have been dead by 1617 ("McGruder lineage...", 67,
citing _Register of the Privy Council_ 13:101-2).
Nat Taylor
Nathaniel Taylor
In article <34DE1156...@hm.telia.no>, "Frank H. Johansen"
<frank.j...@hm.telia.no> wrote:
>5. Heribert I, Count of Vermandois (ca.850-6 Nov 907); m. ?
>
>6a. Beatrix of Vermandois (ca.880-Mar 931); m. Robert, King of France
>6b. Heribert II, Count of Vermandois (ca.880-23 Feb 943); m. Adela of
>Neustria
>
>7a. Hugues, Duke of Neustria (ca. 895-956); m. Hedwig of Saxony
>7b. Ledgard of Vermandois; m. Guillaume I, Duke of Normady
>7c (6b). Robert, Count of Meaux; m. Adelheid of Burgundy
>
>8a . Emma of Francia (ca.945-after 18 Mar 968); m. Richard I, Duke of
>Normandy
>8b. Richard I, Duke of Normandy (933-20 Nov 996); m. Emma of Fracia
>8c. Adele of Meaux (ca.950-974); m. Gauzfred, Count of Anjou
>
>9ab. Richard II, Duke of Normandy (d. 28 Aug 1027); m. Judith of Brittany
>9c. Eremgarde of Anjou; m. Conan, Duke of Brittany
>
>10ab. Robert I, Duke of Normandy (ca.1000-22 Jul 1035); with Harlette
>10c. Judith of Brittany (ca.982-1017); m. Richard II, Duke of Normandy
...
Actually, of these three lines, only the descent through Vermandois, Anjou
and Brittany (line 'c') is what people accept. The earlier dukes of
Normandy had matches with French countesses/princesses, as you show (nos.
7b and 8a/b), but their sons & heirs were apparently not born of these
unions. Katherine S. B. Keats-Rohan discusses the various arguments pro
and con in her article "Poppa of Bayeux and her Family," TAG 72 (1997),
187-204 (and see her summary chart, 188).
Nat Taylor
ED MANN
kah...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> graphical representations of"descent" of William the Conqueror from
> Charlemagne (I KNOW, he isn't, but all his kids and descendants are!!!!)
Hmm. I have the following:
Direct Descendants of Charlemagne
1 [1] Charlemagne b: 2 Apr 747 d: 28 Jan 813/14 ref #: Ä50-13
.. +Himiltrude b: ca. 742
2 Aupais b: ca. 738 ref #: (Ä191-14)
.. +Begue de Paris b: ca. 738 d: 816 ref #: Ä191-14
3 Lisiard de Fezensac ref #: S264-40
4 Gerard de Rousillon b: ca. 790 d: 877 ref #: S264-39
... +Bertha de Tours b: ca. 790
5 Eve de Rousillion b: ca. 820 ref #: (Ä50-17)
.... +Guerri I de Morvois b: ca. 820 ref #: (Ä50-17)
6 [3] Beatrice de Morvois b: ca. 845 ref #: (Ä50-17)
.... +[2] Herbert I de Vermandois b: ca. 840 d: ca. 903 ref #: Ä50-17
. 7 [4] Herbert II de Vermandois b: ca. 885 d: 22 Feb 942/43 ref #:
Ä50-18
..... +[5] Hildebrande de Neustria b: ca. 887 d: Aft. Mar 930/31 ref #:
Ä48-19
. 8 [6] Robert de Vermandois b: ca. 920 d: ca. 968 ref #: Ä118-19
..... +[7] Adelaide de Bourgogne d: ca. 959 ref #: (Ä118-19)
.. 9 [8] Adelaide de Vermandois b: 950 d: ca. 977 ref #: Ä118-20
...... +[9] Geoffrey I de Anjou b: ca. 940 d: 21 Jul 987 ref #:
(Ä118-20)
.. 10 [10] Ermengarde de Anjou ref #: Ä121-21
...... +[11] Conan I de Bretagne d: 27 Jun 992 ref #: (Ä39-21)
... 11 [12] Judith de Bretagne b: 982 d: 16 Jun 1017 ref #: Ä121-22
....... +[13] Richard II de Normandy b: 958 d: 28 Aug 1026 ref #:
Ä121E-21
... 12 [14] Robert I de Normandy b: ca. 1000 d: 22 Jul 1035 ref #:
Ä121E-22
....... +[15] Harlette de Falaise b: ca. 1003 ref #: (Ä121-23)
.... 13 [16] William I of England b: 1027 d: 9 Sep 1087 ref #: Ä121-24
*2nd Wife of [1] Charlemagne:
.. +Hildegarde von Linzgau b: 758 d: 30 Apr 783 ref #: Ä182-5
2 Pepin of Lombardy b: Apr 773 d: 8 Jul 810 ref #: Ä50-14
.. + ref #: (Ä50-14)
3 Bernard of Italy b: ca. 797 d: 17 Apr 818 ref #: Ä50-15
... +Cunigunde d: 15 Jun 835 ref #: (Ä50-15)
4 Pepin de Peronne b: ca. 817 d: Aft. 840 ref #: Ä50-16
5 [2] Herbert I de Vermandois b: ca. 840 d: ca. 903 ref #: Ä50-17
.... +[3] Beatrice de Morvois b: ca. 845 ref #: (Ä50-17)
6 [4] Herbert II de Vermandois b: ca. 885 d: 22 Feb 942/43 ref #:
Ä50-18
.... +[5] Hildebrande de Neustria b: ca. 887 d: Aft. Mar 930/31 ref #:
Ä48-19
. 7 [6] Robert de Vermandois b: ca. 920 d: ca. 968 ref #: Ä118-19
..... +[7] Adelaide de Bourgogne d: ca. 959 ref #: (Ä118-19)
. 8 [8] Adelaide de Vermandois b: 950 d: ca. 977 ref #: Ä118-20
..... +[9] Geoffrey I de Anjou b: ca. 940 d: 21 Jul 987 ref #:
(Ä118-20)
.. 9 [10] Ermengarde de Anjou ref #: Ä121-21
...... +[11] Conan I de Bretagne d: 27 Jun 992 ref #: (Ä39-21)
.. 10 [12] Judith de Bretagne b: 982 d: 16 Jun 1017 ref #: Ä121-22
...... +[13] Richard II de Normandy b: 958 d: 28 Aug 1026 ref #:
Ä121E-21
... 11 [14] Robert I de Normandy b: ca. 1000 d: 22 Jul 1035 ref #:
Ä121E-22
....... +[15] Harlette de Falaise b: ca. 1003 ref #: (Ä121-23)
... 12 [16] William I of England b: 1027 d: 9 Sep 1087 ref #: Ä121-24
2 [17] Louis I de France b: Aug 778 d: 20 Jun 840 ref #: Ä140-14
.. +Ermengarde de Hesbaye b: ca. 777 d: 3 Oct 818 ref #: (Ä140-14)
3 Adele de France ref #: (Ä48-18)
... +Robert I de Paris b: 866 d: 15 Jun 923 ref #: Ä48-18
4 [5] Hildebrande de Neustria b: ca. 887 d: Aft. Mar 930/31 ref #:
Ä48-19
... +[4] Herbert II de Vermandois b: ca. 885 d: 22 Feb 942/43 ref #:
Ä50-18
5 [6] Robert de Vermandois b: ca. 920 d: ca. 968 ref #: Ä118-19
.... +[7] Adelaide de Bourgogne d: ca. 959 ref #: (Ä118-19)
6 [8] Adelaide de Vermandois b: 950 d: ca. 977 ref #: Ä118-20
.... +[9] Geoffrey I de Anjou b: ca. 940 d: 21 Jul 987 ref #: (Ä118-20)
. 7 [10] Ermengarde de Anjou ref #: Ä121-21
..... +[11] Conan I de Bretagne d: 27 Jun 992 ref #: (Ä39-21)
. 8 [12] Judith de Bretagne b: 982 d: 16 Jun 1017 ref #: Ä121-22
..... +[13] Richard II de Normandy b: 958 d: 28 Aug 1026 ref #:
Ä121E-21
.. 9 [14] Robert I de Normandy b: ca. 1000 d: 22 Jul 1035 ref #:
Ä121E-22
...... +[15] Harlette de Falaise b: ca. 1003 ref #: (Ä121-23)
.. 10 [16] William I of England b: 1027 d: 9 Sep 1087 ref #: Ä121-24
*2nd Wife of [17] Louis I de France:
--
FWIW; AFAIK; IMHO; YMMV; yadda, yadda, yadda.
Regards, Ed Mann mailto:edl...@mail2.lcia.com
References:
Ä = Weis, _Ancestral_Roots_, 7th ed.
BxP = _Burke's_Dormant_&_Extinct_Peerages_, [page].
BPci = _Burke's_Peerage_, 101st ed., [page].
BRF = Weir, _Britain's_Royal_Families_, [page].
F = Faris, _Plantagenet_Ancestry_, [page:para].
W = Weis, _Magna_Charta_Sureties,_1215_, 4th ed.
Rodolphe Audette
Frank H. Johansen wrote:
>
> But William the Conqueror IS a descendant of Charlemagne trough three
> different lines! The descent goes as following:
Pursuant to the 911 treaty of St-Clair-sur-Epte between Rollo and
Charles le Simple (Charlemagne's great-great-grandson), the former
married the latter's daughter (sorry I can't remember her name). William
the Conqueror is descended from Rollo. Is he also descended from that
woman? This would be another line from Charlemagne to William.
Rodolphe Audette
mburley
I show the daughters name as Gisele (d 919). I don't show issue for this
marriage. If they had children perhaps someone would be good enough to
supply the necessary info.
Thanks,
M Burley
Todd A. Farmerie
Rodolphe Audette wrote:
>
> Frank H. Johansen wrote:
> >
> > But William the Conqueror IS a descendant of Charlemagne trough three
> > different lines! The descent goes as following:
>
> Pursuant to the 911 treaty of St-Clair-sur-Epte between Rollo and
> Charles le Simple (Charlemagne's great-great-grandson), the former
> married the latter's daughter (sorry I can't remember her name). William
> the Conqueror is descended from Rollo. Is he also descended from that
> woman? This would be another line from Charlemagne to William.
No. There is even doubt that the marriage took place. The mother of
William I Longsword, ancestor of William the Conqueror was either Poppa
of Bayeaux (based on Dudo) or an unnamed christian from the isles (based
on an interpretatin of a late Icelandic source. Poppa, based on
reconstructions, was a descendant of Charlemagne. The other link to
Charlemagne comes through the mother of Robert, William's father. She
was, on her father's side, a descendant of one of Poppa's siblings
(again, based on the recent reconstructions), and hence shares any
descent she would have. On the maternal side, there is a descent from
Anjou, which has one clear Charlemagne line through Vermandois, and I
have seen two other proposed descents.
taf