GLANVILLE
Richard Borthwick
justiciar of England. This is what I have.
(1) Ranulph m. Bertha dau. of Theobald de Valognes lord of Parham in
Suffolk. He succeeded his elder brother Bartholomew (who d.s.p.)to their
father's lordship in Suffolk. He had another brother Osbert and a sister,
Helewise, who m. Robert fitz Ralph lord of Middleham, Yorks. He also had a
niece, Bertha (dead by 1205/06), who married William de Stuteville (d.1203).
Ranulph's father was a William de G. Ranulph's coheirs were his three
daughters whose names and marriages (if any) I know nothing of. [West, F J
*The Justiciarship in England 1066-1232*(Cambridge UP, 1966) 54-63; DNB
VII:1292; ES XIII:104]
(2) Another branch presumably of the same family centres on a Roger de
Glanville (dead by 7 Ric.I) who married (1) Christiana and (2) Gundreda
(d.1200/08) widow of Hugh Le Bigod earl of Norfolk. Roger had two brothers,
Hervey and William and the latter two had daughters, Alice (wife of Geoffrey
de Lodnes) and Agnes (wife of Robert de Creke), respectively (these nieces
were Roger's eventual coheirs). Roger's father was Hervey de Glanville.
[Rokewode, J G *Chronici Jocelini de Brakelonda*(Camden Society, 1840
[reprint 1968]) 144-147; CP IX:586, XII/1:717-718]
(3) Beatrice de Glanville is said to be the great grandmother of Emma de
Cauz. Emma m.Sir John de Grey of Shirland. Beatrice m. Hugh de Leigh of
Thurleigh, Beds. She evidently had a brother, William de Glanville. [CP
VI:171-172]
(4) Turton (following W U Glanville-Richards *Records of the House of
Glanville* (1882) - not a work well thought of by the DNB) makes Helewise
daughter of Ranulph de G rather than his sister. Also he makes Hervey and
Matilda the parents of Ranulph, with Hervey being son of Ranulph son of Rainald.
Turton also mistakenly makes Bertha (niece of Ranulph) and William de
Stuteville ancestors of the later Stutevilles.
[Turton, W H *The Plantagenet Ancestry* (London, 1928 [Reprint by GPC 1993])
123, 106]
So if anyone has material on the ancestry/descendants of Ranulph, the
connection if any between the William/Ranulph group and the Hervey/Roger
group, and whether Beatrice de G (3) fits in with one, other or neither of
(1) or (2), I would be most interested.
Richard
Cristopher Nash
Richard, from what you say I gather you don't have Glanville-Richards (or
the text of 1882 listed as _Records of the Anglo-Norman House of Glanville_
at the Bodleian under A C Hervey), and wish you had, if only so that we
might get our stuff together and begin to sort out the thing. It's a
classic e.g. of C19 antiquarian mayhem - built from a mass of
unquestionably invaluable Glanville source material assembled into a
dismally ill-considered narrative/pedigree. (The most blatant and - because
it is so patently berserk - ultimately least crucial example being his
persistently calling Ran(d)ulph, William and Gilbert de Glanville the 1st,
2d and 3d 'Earls of Suffolk' when no such earldom existed.)
To try to answer your 'has anyone material on the ancestry' it'd be hard to
know where to start. I'll just say that, re Emma, this compilation gives
her as da. of 'Sir Geoffrey de Glanville 1240' (& Margaret da. of Sir
Geoffrey De-la-Haye), <-s. of 'Bartholomew de Glanville 1189' (& Isabel de
Berking), <-s. of 'Earl William de Glanville, Baron of Bromholm 1113' (&
Beatrix da. & coh. of Sir William Sackville), <-s. of 'Ranulph de
Glanville, Lord of Glanville, Normandy, 1045', and that - on the basis of
other evidence - the de la Haye connection appears to be about right. As
to the rest, on purely chronological grounds alone you can see we're in
deep trouble.
Can you get the book? If it looks like not, I can send you photocopies of
its leading pedigree chart (2-page spread facing pp 62-63) and the 1st 7
pages of its literal (more detailed) version (pp. 175-181, for the period
down to 1665), and supplement it, if you then wish, with material down to
appx the 13th generation (from the earliest claimed ancestor - see above),
all of which I have on hand. The original aged text, not to mention my
copy of it, is intractable to scanning without massive (scanner-training)
work I haven't time for.
If I've discouraged you re that 'source', maybe this posting will be taken
by anyone watching as an appeal for info leading to the discovery of more
promising Glanville research. Anyone favouring ES where Glanville-Richards
(Hervey) turns out to be the source need not apply. My sense is that the
business's been muddled by others' (e.g. Turton's, CP's) persistent
reference to this text (for which a partial critique is already tendered in
its own 'Introduction' by a contemporary, John Pym Yeatman) for most of the
century since. To be honest, here's a project I've not yet even started,
seeing the labyrinth ahead.
I've got to go abroad again Monday (to the States, in fact) but will be
back after the 17th.
Cris
G . EDWARD ALLEN
This is from G. Andrews Moriarty, New England Historic Genealogical
Register 102:292-300, esp. cht. 296f, "The Parentage of Ranulf de
Glanville."
Ranulf de Glanville = N.
From Glabville nr. Lisieux .
d. -1086. .
.
.
.....................................................
Robert Hervey = N. dtr. of Roger Salt-les-
dsp. de Glanville . Dames and sister of William
. of Felstead, Essex.
.
.....................................................................
William = Beatrice Hervey = N.
de Glanville 1 dtr. of
of Bromholme, 1 Robert (?) de Sauqueville/
d. ca. 1113. 1 Sackville Farrer's Honors & Kts.
1 Fees I:211.
1
_______________________________............................
Bartholomew =Isabel Adam of Gilbert Reynald
of Bromholm, 1 Felsted, Bp. of
Bacton, etc. 1 Essex Rochester
Suffolk. 1 d. 29 June 1214
d. 1175 1
1
_______________________________....................
William = Dionisia Geoffrey Stephen = N.
of Bromholme d. after dtr. of
dsp 1234 1200 Warin de
Montchensey
and Agnes, dtr.
Payn FitzJohn
Hervey de Glanville = N. (as above son of Hervey)
1
1
________________________________________________________________________
Hervey William = N. Roger = (1) Christina Gerard 1
d. after 1 dsp 1196/7 (2) Gundreda d. after 1
1166. Issue ? 1 wid. Hugh Bigod 1189 1
1 1
Agnes = before 1199 Robert de Crec 1
1 1
Bartholomew de Crec 1
1
__________________________________________............................
Ranulf = Bertha Robert Guthe Osbert
1 d. after = N. d. after 1189
1 1207/8
1
1
________________________________________________________________________
Maud = William Amabel = Ralf Helwise/Hawise = Robert
de Auberville de Arden fitz
Ralf of
Middleham,
Yorkshire
Hope this helps.
Kay Allen AG all...@pacbell.net
Alan B. Wilson
ALLEN) wrote:
FWIW VHC Yorkshire North Riding, vol. i, ed. by William Page, has a
few mentions of the later Glanvilles:
(1) p. 46. "Abbot S[avericus] granted Gilmonby to R[anulf de
Glanville] the sheriff on condition that he maintain an inn there, fire,
hay for horses and other conveniences to receive the abbot and his train."
(2) p. 158. "Harsculph Rufus married a daughter of Aldred de
Richmond, and so was related to the Rollos family; his sister Oriolda
married Ranulf (de Glanville) the sheriff and had children, William and
Cecily."
(3) pp. 218-219. "At COVERHAM, where 4 carucates of land were at
geld, the two 'manors' held by Tor and Egbrand before the Conquest were in
1086 held by Count Alan in demesne. The count's younger brother Ribald
was already tenant of 3 carcates of land in Scrafton, but Coverham,
according to an 'old roll' transcribed by Dodsorth, was acquired by his
descendant Robert, who married Helewise daughter and co-heir of Berta
daughter of Theobald de Valoignes the elder by her husband Ranulph de
Glanville, Chief Justice of England and lord of Coverham. Helewise died
in 1195 and her son and heir Waleran gave the church of Coverham to the
abbey founded by his mother at Swainby in the parish of Pickhill (q.v.).
The abbey, however, was removed to the bank of the Cover by Ranulph,
brother and heir of Waleran, in 1212. To this spot the bones of Helewise
were removed, and here the subsequent lords of Middleham found burial."
(4) p. 274. "This mesne lordship [Leyburn] seems to have comprised
at lest 2&1/2 carucates beyond these 6 oxgangs, though the jurors of
1286-7 did not say of whom these 2&1/2 carucates were held. In 1318 this
fee consisted of 2 carucates, only one of which paid foreign service.
Some, if not all, of this land must be that which Ranulph son of Robert
acquired, as heir of his mother Helewise, about 1205 from William de
Stutville, after the death of William's wife Berta.*
*"Rot. de Oblatis et Fin, (Rec. Com.), 337. Berta was niece
(neptis) of Ranulph de Glanvill (ibid. 348). It may possibly also
represent the lands of Aschil, who was succeeded by Swainby (see V.C.H.
Yorks. N. R. ii) by the lords of Middleham,"
(5) p. 378. "The Premonstratensian abbey of Coverham was first
founded at Swainby by Helewise the daughter of Ranulf de Glanvill, but was
removed to Coverham by her son Ralph."
(6) p. 379, n. 9. "Gale, Reg. Honor. de Richmond, App. III; Ralph
de Ganvill, who died in 1190 (Dict. Nat. Biog.), was one of the witnesses
to the charter." [Gift of Pickhill.]
Number 3 above can be charted:
Theobald de Valognes
|
Ranulph de Glanvill = Berta
of Coverham |
Chief Justice |
|
Robert FitzRalph = Helewise
[(Talybois) | (-1195)
of Middleham] |
|
給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給
| |
Waleran Ranulph FitzRobert
-bef. 1213)
Number 5 above is congruent with Helewise being daughter of Ranulph
de Glanvill, wife of Robert FitzRalph (as indicated by Moriarty), and
mother of Ranulph FitzRobert.
Number 4 above seems to be referring to Robert FitzRalph, his wife
Helewise, and son Ranulph FitzRobert. The Bertha, wife of William de
Stuteville, is said to be a niece of Ranulph de Glanvill. [This would be
consistent with ES xiii, 107.] (But one cannot tell from this which of
Ranulph's siblings would be her father.)
If the above is correct, Ranulph FitzRobert would seem to be the one
who married Mary Bigod, and whose son, Ranulph FitzRanulph married
Anastasia Percy. [See, e.g., Weis, Magna Charta Surities, 164:2; ES iii,
117.]
I do not know how (or if) the persons mentioned in number 2 above are
related to persons in this chart or in Moriarty's as provided by Kay
Allen.
--
Alan B. Wilson
abwi...@uclink2.berkeley.edu