CP Addition: Birthdate of Alice (Sergeaux), Countess of Oxford
Brad Verity
June 1400, Alice, wife of Guy de St. Aubyn, and one of the daughters
of Philippa, wife of Richard Sergeaux, knight, was "born at Colquite
in the parish of St. Mabyn and baptised in the church there on 1 Sept.
1384, and is therefore aged 15."
Alice, the third of the four daughters and coheiresses of her mother,
later married, in 1406 or 1407, Richard de Vere, 11th Earl of Oxford
(d. 1417), and thirdly, Nicholas Thorley, of Asslyns, co. Essex,
sheriff of Essex (d. 1442), and died 18 May 1452, aged 67.
At the time of her proof of age, Alice was a ward of John Cornwall
(later Lord Fanhope), her stepfather.
Cheers, ------Brad
Brad Verity
> Dear Brad,
>
> Many thanks for this. I have copied this into my computer. One question,
> perhaps a dumb one, if she was married to Guy de st.Aubyn, why was she
> still
> a ward of her step-father?
> Leo
Thanks, Leo.
If a daughter was under age when her father died, even if she was
contracted to marry, she was considered a ward until she reached the
age of majority to inherit. Alice's husband Guy de St. Aubyn was
about 8 years older than her (he was said to be age 7 and more when
his father died in 1383, the year before Alice was born), so in 1400,
he was about age 24, old enough to have livery of his own inheritance
as well as hers.
Since her husband Guy himself must've been a ward of someone until he
was 21 in about 1397, he was too young to have the wardship of his
young bride when they were first contracted to marry, and her
stepfather was allowed wardship of Alice as well as control of her
share of her parents' estates until she proved her age.
I believe that's what probably happened, but I too get confused with
wardship, ages of majority, child marriages, etc. - there are probably
some folks who could answer in better detail than I just did.
Cheers, ---------------Brad
Cristopher Nash
might be able to help unravel a century-old puzzle.
>According to the Proof of Age taken at Hellandbridge, Cornwall, on 21
>June 1400, Alice, wife of Guy de St. Aubyn, and one of the daughters
>of Philippa, wife of Richard Sergeaux, knight, was "born at Colquite
>in the parish of St. Mabyn and baptised in the church there on 1 Sept.
>1384, and is therefore aged 15."
Another daughter of Sir Richard Sergeaux, Elizabeth, married Sir
William Marney (d. 1414), fa. of Sir Thomas Marney, the 1st husband
of Margaret (---) who m. 2d Sir Thomas de Etchingham. (E.g. Cal.
Anc. Deeds, I, C.112, and Early Chanc. Proceedings, I, p. 214:16.)
Kilkwyte/Colquite (etc) then for a considerable period went with the
Marneys (and Sir Thomas de Etchingham -- otherwise based in Sussex --
subsequently served as commissioner in relation to several events
there and elsewhere nearby in Cornwall).
My interest is in the E(t)chinghams, and the riddle concerns
traditional claims to the effect that Margaret who m. Sir Thomas de
Etchingham (who d. 1444) was Margaret Knyvet, da. of Sir John Knyvet,
about which -- as some here will recall -- I've tediously raised
questions (and an occasional eyebrow) from time to time. (One fair
reason for my querying the claim is that the elaborate arguments
offered -- e.g. classically and influentially by F H Suckling in _The
Genealogist_, 21:124-42, 243-50 -- fail to mention Margaret [---]'s
first marriage to Marney and an important dower/inheritance
associated with it, and in fact have her as married 1st and at the
same time to Sir Robert de Tye of Barsham, Suff.)
For any who've followed discussions of this line here I probably
don't have to say I'd not only welcome evidence of a second
contemporaneous Sir Thomas de Etchingham but would actually find it a
relief, since it would help to resolve a more serious glitch -- the
claim that the universally alluded-to Sir Thomas had, along with his
son Thomas, a daughter Elizabeth who married John de Lunsford, which
is most probably a chronological impossibility.
One of the problems in the history of E(t)chingham and Knyvet studies
has been that family historians've been lured by the excitement of
finding unexpected East Anglian (Essex and Suffolk) connections for a
Sussex family into altogether missing significant -- and potentially
cartupsetting -- ones in the West Country. It would help enormously
to hear if in your scanning of Sergeaux (or other Cornish or
associated) records you've seen references to E(t)chingham, Marney
(and/or Knyvet or Tye) that might help us to tease out evidence of
the sequence of events and relationships in a peculiarly tangled and
maladroitly researched family cluster.
Thanks for anything!
Cris
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