le Breton of Walton, Derbyshire
mj...@btinternet.com
Bekerings, Rempstons etc, married Isabel, daughter and heiress of
Robert le Breton of Walton, Brimington and Rowditch, CO Derby.
The following PROCAT reference doubtless relates to Isabel's father,
who according to his IPM died c1350:
C 143/162/16:
Robert le Breton of Walton to retain the manor of Walton acquired from
Roger de Eynecourt to himself and Margaret his wife, now deceased, and
the heirs of their bodies. [Derby]
17 EDWARD II.
Perhaps this indicates that his wife was a de Eyncourt.
mj...@btinternet.com
which she contributed in May 2004 dealing with various aspects of the
Breton/Loudham family.
This allows me to put together a more detailed stemma, but also calls
into question (by reference to primary sources) one or two of the
details previously listed in relation to the Loudhams.
1. John Deincourt (d 1257) married Agnes Percy nee Neville [Cal. IPMs
Henry VII V3 #370; also the source of the following, unless stated
otherwise]. Issue:
2a. Edmund Deincourt (CP)
2b. Roberta Deincourt married Roger le Breton of Walton [see Notts
Archives DD/FJ/1/107/7: 'Roger le Breton, Lord of Walton, 13 July
1305]. Issue:
3a. Robert le Breton, son and heir of Roger le Breton [Notts Archives
DD/FJ/1/59/1 dated 14 August 1323; Cal. IPMs Vol 6 #408]; IPM 24 Edward
III [Cal IPM Vol 9 #392-3]; married Margaret [c 143/162/16] dead by 17
Edward II. Issue:
4a. Isabel le Breton, daughter and heiress, aged 26 in 1350 and married
to Sir John Loudham [Cal IPMs Vol 9 #392-3]
3b. John le Breton, remainderman to the manor of Timberland, Lincs;
married Alice Kirketon, widow of Sir John Loudham [parents of the
foregoing Sir J L]. Issue:
4a. John le Breton
4b. Catherine le Breton, married John Caltofte. Issue:
5a. Alice Caltofte married [Sir William] Chaworth, leaving issue.
+++++++++++++++++++++++
I am not presently sure where Roger Deincourt fits in. I note he was
knighted by 6 November 1337 [Notts Archives DD/FJ/1/104/4] when he
witnessed a Derbyshire deed. He also appears as a witness together
with Roger le Breton in an undated Derbyshire deed regarding land at
Haseland [DD/P/CD/118].
There is also an earlier Roger Deincourt, who is named along with
Walter Deincourt and John Deincourt in a Derbyshire Quitclaim said to
date from the reign of Henry III - ie not later than 1272.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Two documents which relate to the settlements of Kirketon family
properties makes me question the previously established Loudham stemma,
viz:
1. Sir John Loudham d c1318, married Alice de Kirketon (married 2. John
le Breton). Issue:
2. Sir John de Loudham c1314-1387, marred Isabel le Breton, born c1324.
Issue:
3a. Sir John de Loudham c1357-1390
3b. Isabel de Loudham, born c1360; coheiress, 1390, married Thomas
Bekering, c1361-1425. Issue:
4a. Thomas Bekering, born c1383; died young
4b. Alice Bekering, born c1395; heiress 1425; married Sir Thomas
Rempston
3c. Margaret de Loudham, born c1362; married Thomas Foljambe
------------
Firstly, we see from C 143/307/2, dated 26 Edward III (1352/3) that
John de Kirketon settled the castle of Tattershall with various family
remainders, including:
(i) 'John de Loudham and the heirs male of his body' [JK's nephew, 2
above];
(ii) 'Alice daughter of John de Loudham' [identified in May 2004 as
sister of the foregoing, whose father was also named JL; I read it as
referring to his daughter rather than his sister, elsewise the
remainder would appear to repeat itself by referring twice to the
'right heir of John de Loudham and the heirs of his body']
(iii) 'Isabel her sister' [I read this to be Isabel, daughter of John
de Loudham (1314-1387); if so then either she must have died young, and
another daughter, who subsequently married Thomas Bekering, have been
given the same name, or Thomas Bekering's wife Isabel was born before
January 1353 at the latest - this would make her at least 41/2 when her
eventual heiress Alice was born, which I find questionable.]
(iv) 'the right heir of John de Loudham the father and Alice his wife
and the heirs of his body' [Sir John Loudham d c1318].
----------------------
The second document is C143/342/16 dated 36 Edward III (circa 1362)
whereby John de Kirketon settles the manor of Tumby, with remainder to
John de Loudham, knight, for life, remainder to John son of the said
John de Loudham, Katherine his wife and the heirs of their bodies.
John de Loudham I identify as Sir John (c1314-1387), but it is highly
unlikely that John his son (born c1357) should have married a wife
Katherine by 1362.
Perhaps a radical possibility is that there should be an additional
generation here, viz:
1. John de Loudham, died c1318; married Alice de Kirketon. Issue:
2. John de Loudham, born c1314, living 1362, married Isabel le Breton,
born c1324. Issue:
3a. Alice de Loudham, living 1352
3b. Isabel de Loudham, living 1352
3b. John de Loudham, living 1352, died 1387; married Katherine. Issue:
4a. John de Loudham c1357-1390, married Margaret de Burgh d 1451
4b. Isabel de Loudham born c1360, married Thomas Bekering c1361-1425
(son Thomas born c1383, daughter Alice born c1395)
4c. Margaret de Loudham, born c1362, married Thomas Foljambe
MAR
mj...@btinternet.com
May 2004 Douglas Richardson stated that Roger le Bret[on] husband of
Roberta Deincourt, was son of Jordan le Breton by Joan daughter of
William de Heriz.
While a secondary source reference is given which states that William
de Heriz (grandfather of 'Robert' [recte Roger?] Bret) had a daughter
Joan married to 'Sir Jordan de Bret', a document from the Foljambe
papers at the Notts Archives (DD/FJ/5/5/1) dated 13 June 1319 refers to
Roger as "Roger son of Rob. Bretoun of Waleton".
It would seem that this document casts doubt on Roger le Breton's
Basset descent.
mj...@btinternet.com
Douglas Richardson posted the following on 13 May 2004:
"I find that Trevor Foulds in his book, Thurgaton Cartulary, pg. clvi,
states that Roger le Bret above married Sarah of Coston (Leics.),
granddaughter of Alice, sister of Richard III of Wiverton. I suspect,
however, there were two separate and distinct Roger le Bret's, one who
married Roberta Deincourt and one who married Sarah of Coston. I
believe Roger le Bret (husband of Roberta Deincourt) had his chief seat
at Wiverton, Nottinghamshire and Williamsthorpe, Derbyshire. He was
presumably living in 1319, as indicated by a record provided below from
the A2A Catalogue. His son and heir was named John le Bret. The other
Roger le Bret resided at Coston, Leicestershire. He was living in
1302/3, and died before 1313/4, being survived by his wife, Sarah. His
son and heir was named Roger le Bret."
This has some significance, because the Bretons of Wiverton are
ancestral to the Chaworths of the same place, and are supposed to be
descended from the Bassets.
Douglas is quite right when he says that it is important to distinguish
between two different men named Roger le Breton. However, it appears
some confusion has crept into his account above, because the Coston and
Wiverton le Bretons are one and the same, and the Williamsthorpes may
be as well. They are in any case quite separate to the Bretons of
Walton, as will be seen below.
++++++++++
1. Roger le Breton of Walton, died 1250
IPM: writ to Sheriff of Nottingham 16 October 34 Henry III: Robert aged
24 is son and heir; Derby: Waleton town or manor with 120 acres of land
in Calehale held of the King in chief of Peverel fee by service of one
knight's fee; Rudich: two carucates of land held of the heirs of Robert
Duyn [Cal IPMs Vol 1 #192 p 48]
Issue:
2. Sir Robert le Breton of Walton, c1226-c1279;
heir to his father, 1250, then aged 24;
IPM: Robert le Bretun alias le Breton alias de Breton: writ 24 May 7
Edward I [1279], Inquisition Thursday before St John Baptist, 7 Edward
I: Derby: Rudiche manor; Roger his heir is aged 19 1/2; Walton manor
with the hamlet of Calale held of the King by service of one knight's
fee; Roger his son aged 19 at the Feast of St Michael last is his heir
[Cal. IPMs Vol 2 #317 p 185]
Bore: per pale gules and azure, a fesse between two chevrons argent.
[Knights of Edward I, Vol A-D, p 141]
married Mary [op.cit. "dower to widow Mary 17 Jy 1279 (CR)"]; issue:
3. Roger le Breton of Walton, cSeptember 1259-1322;
heir to his father, 1279, then aged 19 1/2;
named in deeds relating to Walton dated 18 August 1290 and 13 July 1305
(in latter referred to as "Roger le Breton, Lord of Walton") [Notts
Archives DD/FJ/1/107/6-7]; and in Acquittance dated 13 June 1319
[DD/FJ/5/1]: (1) Henry de Faucomberg, (2) Roger son of Rob. Bretoun of
Waleton: (1) to (2) for 8 marks in part of £22 which (2) adjudged, in
assize of novel disseisin, to pay Roger le Bret of Williamesthorp" -
[so we see that Roger of Walton and Roger of Williamsthorp in 1319 were
two distinct men - MAR]
IPM: writ 6 November 16 Edward II [1322]; inquisition at Derby, Sunday
after St Marin, 16 Edward II: Walton: the manor held of the King in
chief; Whytyngton and Brymyngton: manor held of Sir Thomas Wack';
Roudich: messuage and land held of Sir Robert Tochet. Robert his son
aged 32 and more is his next heir [Cal. IPMs Vol 6 #408 pp 239-240]
Issue:
4. Robert le Breton of Walton c1290-1350
heir to his father, 1322, then aged 32 and more;
C143/162/16: "Robert le Breton of Walton to retain the manor of Walton
acquired from Roger de Eynecourt [presumably as a feoffee to uses: MAR]
to himself and Margaret his wife, now deceased, and the heirs of their
bodies: 17 Edward II"
IPM: writ 14 May 24 Edward III [1350]: inquisition at Chesterfield,
Saturday before St Barnabas 24 Edward III: Derby: Walton and Calal
manor; Brymyngton and Wyttyton manor; Roudiches by Derby: 100 acres of
arable, 4 acres of meadow; two watermills and a windmill at Walton; he
died Saturday after St John before the Latin Gate 24 Edward III; Isabel
his daughter, wife of Sir John de Lowdham, knight, aged 26 years, is
his heir [Cal. IPMs Vol 9 #567 pp 392-393]
married Margaret, dead by 1324; issue:
5. Isabel de Breton, born circa 1324; heiress to her father, 1350;
married Sir John Lowdham; issue, inherited Walton, Brimington and
Rowditch.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
This is to be contrasted with the Wiverton de Bretons:
1. Roger le Breton of Coston and Wiverton
(said to have borne: gules, bezante or, "une daunce de or"; "his wife
Sarah inherits land at Wyverton, Notts, 1279-80"; overlord at Burton
Noverary, Leics, 1307" [Knights of Edward I, Vol A-D, pp 139-140] - NB
the accuracy of these three statements is not unimpeachable; I have not
yet seen evidence that they each relate to the same man)
dead by 1314 - see below
married Sarah, daughter of Alice Bottlesford: "IPM Nottingham, Monday
before St Peter in Cathedra, 8 Edward I: Alice late the wife of Walter
de Bottlesford: Wyverton and Berneston, including land at former held
of the priory of Thurgarton; Coleston Bassett. Sarah her daughter aged
28, wife of Roger le Breth, and Alice, daughter of Beatrice another
daughter who is dead, aged 15 and unmarried, are her next heir(s)"
[Cal. IPMs Vol II # 372 p 370]
cf "Order to the King's steward, 8 March 1280, to deliver to Roger le
Breth and Sarah his wife, first born daughter and one of the heirs of
Alice late the wife of Walter de Botlisford, tenant in chief, a moiety
of the lands of her said mother, he having done homage and she having
done fealty, retaining in the King's hands the other moiety falling to
Alice, daughter (sic) and other heir of the said Alice, and answering
therefor and for the marriage of Alice" [Cal. Fine Rolls Vol 1 p 124]
PROCAT C143/98/2: "Sarah late the wife of Roger le Bret of Coston, and
John de Mendham to grant messuages, land and rent in Wiverton and
Barnston to High le Vaus of Garthorpe, Maud his wife and his heirs:
Notts: 7 Edward II"
Issue:
2a. Roger le Breton, son and heir; living 1313
PROCAT C143/44/7: Roger le Bret the elder to grant a messuage and land
at Coston to Roger his son and heir, retaining a messuage and land in
Coston, Leics: 31 Edward I"
PROCAT C143/95/11: "Roger, son of Roger le Bret, and Thomas his
brother, to retain land in Wiverton and Tithby acquired to them and the
heirs of Roger from John son of John de Mendham: Notts: 7 Edward II"
(NB I am indebted to Douglas Richardson for these and several of the
foregoing references, from his posts of May 2004)
2b. Thomas le Breton, living 1313
+++++++++++++++
Presumably therefore the Chaworths of Wiverton descend from the Bretons
of Wiverton. Apparent confirmation of this comes from Chris Phillips'
post of 20 May 2004 detaling the Chaworth brass formerly in the Savoy
Chapel, which included quarterings thus:
1. Chaworth
2. Alfreton
3. Caltofte
4. Brett: gules a fess dancetty between ten billets or - i.e. those
arms attributed above to Roger le Breton of Wiverton, ff 1280-1302.
++++++++++++++
The Chaworths claimed descent from the Bretons is detailed in Rosie
Bevan's post in which she notes the IPM of Joan Ormond nee Chaworth
from 1508 [Cal. IPMs Henry VII Vol 3 #370]; this states that the line
was as follows:
1. Agnes de Percy, widow of John Deincourt
2. Roberta, married Roger le Bretton
3. John le Breton
4a. John le Breton
4b. Catherine le Breton, married John Caltofte
5. Alice Caltofte, married Chaworth etc
++++++++++++++++
It is tempting - if not irresistible - to tie in here Alice de
Kirketon, widow of Sir John Loudham (d 1318). As stated above, she had
a son, John de Loudham born c1314, by her first husband, and very
shortly after being widowed remarried to John le Breton, and had a
second son, John le Breton the younger. These relationships are
evidenced by contemporary records, includes the Kirketon family
settlements. We know that the younger Sir John de Loudham was feoffee
for John Caltofte in 1351, so it makes sense to equate John Caltofte's
brother- and father-in-law, John le Breton the younger and elder, with
the second son and second husband of Alice de Kirketon.
Having said this, because the le Breton ancestors of the Caltofte
appear to be from the Wiverton line, I withdraw my earlier conjecture
that the elder John le Breton and Robert le Breton of Walton were
brothers. Both seem to have been heirs of fathers called Roger le
Breton: the former of Wiverton/Coston, and the latter of Walton. It
appears that the fact that the former were descended from the
Deincourts, and the latter were connected with the Deincourts through
relationships such as feoffees is not enough to entitle us to fuse the
two le Breton lines.
+++++++++++++++
Alice Chaworth nee Caltofte claimed in 1391 to be an heir to the
Bassets through the Heriz family. Douglas quoted a secondary source in
May 2004 which claimed that Roger le Breton of Williamsthorpe (sic) was
grandson of William de Heriz (husband of Maud Basset), and that William
Heriz's daughter Joan married 'Sir Jordan le Bret', presumably posited
as Roger's parents. Clearly these are not the ancestors of the Walton
family; whether they are ancestors of the Wiverton family remains to be
tested.
MAR
mj...@btinternet.com
Wiverton line.
1. Agnes Neville ff 1291 married John Deincourt died 1257
2. Roberta Deincourt, born no later than 1258, marr. Roger le Breton
3. John le Breton married 1318 Alice Loudham nee de Kirketon
4. Catherine le Breton married John Caltofte
5. Alice Caltofte born circa 1343
cf
1. Roger le Breton, dead by 1314; married by 1280 Sarah [?Bottlisford]
born circa 1252, survived her husband
2. Roger le Breton living 1313, his father's heir
How then could Roger le Breton, husband of Roberta Deincourt, and John
their son fit into the Wiverton stemma? Chronology would suggest that
he could not be the son of Roger and Sarah above, unless his wife were
some years his senior?
Betty Gorrie
John Deincourt and Neville had
Edmund Deincourt, Lord, who had application in 1314 concerning this nephew Edmund, son of John, (Edmund the uncle's brother), who had a daughter Isabel who died after 1325 and before 1327. Edmund Deincourt the Uncle, in 1325 granted William FitzWilliam, the Manor of Plumtree als Plumtree, which was a grant to him and the heirs named, which included Joan and Isabel. Edmund the Nephew's wife was that said Joan, and Isabel was her daughter with Edmund the Nephew.
Isabel was in fact the granddaughter of William FitzWilliam and his wife Dame Isabel who died 1346.
This mess all started when the translation from Latin to English conflated the Edmund's. Steve Hunt was nice enough to send me a copy of the latin, and it says
"Isabel the daughter and heir apparent of Edmund". The English version May 5 1317 says "Isabel HIS daughter and heir apparent". The reason this is significant, i that the application was sought by Edmund the Uncle, who died 1327, not the Edmund( father of Isabel) who had died 1313. So all along people thought Isabel was the wife of William FitzWilliam and that Edmund was one person only.
So 1. John Deincourt married Agnes De Neville
2.a Edmund Deincourt, Lord
2.b John Deincourt, died before 1313
2.b John Deincourt died before 1313 (wife Joanna de Annesley? I cannot find a source)
3.a Roberta Deincourt married Lebrett
3.b Margaret Deincourt d 1333, co-executor of 2 a Edmund's will
3.c Edmund Deincourt who married Joan FitzWilliam of William FitzWilliam and Dame Isabella
3.c Edmund Deincourt who died before 1314
4.a Isabella Deincourt who died aft 1325 befor 1327, dsp
and from that Point, the FitzWilliam family had Plumtree and they were also of Elmeley. the son William I believe known as William De Emley.
Betty Gorrie
Thoroton places this Joanna as the daughter of the son of John c 1250. I just have too much background on the Deincourts at this point to contemplate changes in dates to 2 generations. But if anyone has further info, I will always listen.