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The Three Husbands of Joan de Melton
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John Watson
Jan 13, 2013, 1:44:28 AM1/13/13
to
Dear all,
Following my recent discovery that it is possible to download PhD
theses from British Universities for free, I have been looking for
medieval material which might be available.
I have recently downloaded a copy of the mainly 14th century cartulary
of the Scrope family of Bolton, Yorkshire, available from the British
Library Electronic Theses Online Service, Ethos http://ethos.bl.uk/Home.do
(free registration required). The cartulary contains a wealth of
information on the Scropes and other Richmondshire families in the
13th and 14th centuries. The document is by Brigette Vale, The Scropes
of Bolton and of Masham, c. 1300 - c. 1450 : A study of a northern
noble family with a calendar of the Scrope of Bolton Cartulary. It is
in two volumes, volume 2 is the cartulary, translated into English.
One surprising find in the cartulary concerns Joan de Melton, niece of
William de Melton, Archbishop of York who died on 5 April 1340.
Joan was the daughter of William's brother Henry and in 1333 she was
married to Robert, son of Thomas de Conyers of Norton Conyers, Hutton
Conyers and Badsworth, Yorkshire:
1333, York. Three weeks of Michaelmas, 7 Edw. III, 1333. Robert de
Conyers, knight, quer., William de Ponte Burgi, clerk, def, of the
manors of Hoton Conyers, Norton Conyers, and Overdydensale'-: To hold
to Robert for life ; remainder, as to the manors of Hoton and Norton,
to Robert son of Thomas de Conyers and Joan daughter of Henry de
Melton and the heirs of their bodies ; remainder to the right heirs of
Robert de Conyers [the party]. As to the manor of Overdydensale, to
hold to Thomas son of Robert de Conyers for life ; remainder to the
said Robert (son of Thomas) and Joan and the heirs of their bodies ;
remainder to the right heirs of Robert [the party].
Yorkshire Archaeological Society, Record Series, Vol. 42, Feet of
Fines for Yorkshire, 1327-47 (1910) p. 52, No. 52
Robert Conyers and Joan had one daughter, Margaret. Robert Conyers
died sometime before 1343, when Joan had re-married to Thomas de
Eland. In 1343, the wardship of Margaret, daughter of Robert son of
Thomas de Conyers was granted to Thomas Eland and Joan, his wife.
Surtees Society, Vol. 119, Richard D'Aungerville of Bury (1910) p. 77
What happened to Margaret Conyers is uncertain, but she probably died
shortly afterwards.
Thomas de Eland and Joan Melton had one daughter, Isabel. Thomas pre-
deceased his father Sir John de Eland, who was murdered in a feud in
1350 and his elder brother John who was also murdered in 1351. Isabel,
who by that time was married to Sir John de Saville, became the
heiress of the Elands and carried Elland and Tankersley to the
Savilles.
The Scrope cartulary contains a deed which shows that after the death
of Thomas de Eland, Joan Melton married for a third time, to Sir
Christopher Mallory. In or before 1350, they sold the manor of Norton
Conyers to John de Carlton:
17 June 1350 at Norton Conyers, Re-grant by Christopher Maillore and
Joanna his wife to John son of Walter de Carleton, of their whole
manor of Norton Conyers with appurtenances. Also their lands in
'Armelay' and 'Heton Scales' which Joanna held in dower after the
death of her husband Sir Robert Coigners. To be held in perpetuity by
John and his heirs. Witnesses: John de Clother, Adam Forester of
Norton, John his son, Adam Warde of Norton, John Canan of Norton.
Scrope of Bolton Cartulary, p. 188, No. 502
I think that this deed puts paid to all those pedigrees where Joan
wife of Christopher Mallory is said to be the daughter of Robert
Conyers. Joan Melton and Christopher Mallory were the ancestors of the
Mallorys of Studely Royal, Yorkshire.
In 1355, Christopher and Joan quitclaimed all their rights in the
manor of Norton Conyers to John de Carlton:
Westminster. Octave of Trinity, 29 Edw. III , 1355. John de Carleton,
by Walter de Askham, his attorney, quer., Christopher Maillore,
chivaler, and Joan his wife, def., of the manor of Norton-Coignyers :
Release by Christopher and Joan of whatsoever they had in the manor
for the life of Joan, to John and his heirs. John gave 100 marks.
Yorkshire Archaeological Society, Record Series, Vol. 52, Feet of
Fines for Yorkshire, 1347-1377 (1915) p. 51, No. 16
In 1375, John de Carlton sold the manor of Norton Conyers to Richard
Scrope:
Westminster. Quindene of Michaelmas, 49 Edw. III, 1375. Quindene of
St. John Baptist, 50 Edw. III, 1376 Richard Lescrope, chivaler, quer.,
John de Carleton [?] and Alice his wife, def., of the manor of Norton-
Coniers near Ripon : To hold to Richard and his heirs (together with
10s. rent and the moiety of one knight's fee in the same manor, and
also the homage and service of William son of Robert de Norton-Coniers
and Margaret daughter of Robert de Tollerton, and their heirs), paying
£10 yearly to John and Alice, for their lives, and also to John for
his life one robe of an esquire's suit [unam robam de secta
armigerorum]. Power of distress. Warranty by John and Alice for
themselves and the heirs of John. Richard gave 200 marks.
Yorkshire Archaeological Society, Record Series, Vol. 52, Feet of
Fines for Yorkshire, 1347-1377 (1915) p. 199, No. 36
I'm not quite sure what happened next, but Richard Scrope probably
sold Norton Conyers to Richard Norton, Justice of the Common Pleas -
in 1395 he was holding Norton Conyers (Feet of Fines Yorkshire, CP
25/1/279/147, number 30). Richard Norton almost certainly wasn't born
before 1340-43 when Robert Conyers died. He was probably born about
1370, and is first noted as an advocate in 1399 and became serjeant-at-
law in 1401 (ODNB), I can't see how the later Nortons claimed to be
descended from the Conyers and adopted their arms. Successors they may
have been, but descendants seems highly unlikely.
If I find any more interesting snippets in British academia on the
internet, I'll let you know - anything for free appeals to my
Yorkshireness. I'm off to download the cartularies of Lanercost and
Nostell right now.
Regards,
John
Following my recent discovery that it is possible to download PhD
theses from British Universities for free, I have been looking for
medieval material which might be available.
I have recently downloaded a copy of the mainly 14th century cartulary
of the Scrope family of Bolton, Yorkshire, available from the British
Library Electronic Theses Online Service, Ethos http://ethos.bl.uk/Home.do
(free registration required). The cartulary contains a wealth of
information on the Scropes and other Richmondshire families in the
13th and 14th centuries. The document is by Brigette Vale, The Scropes
of Bolton and of Masham, c. 1300 - c. 1450 : A study of a northern
noble family with a calendar of the Scrope of Bolton Cartulary. It is
in two volumes, volume 2 is the cartulary, translated into English.
One surprising find in the cartulary concerns Joan de Melton, niece of
William de Melton, Archbishop of York who died on 5 April 1340.
Joan was the daughter of William's brother Henry and in 1333 she was
married to Robert, son of Thomas de Conyers of Norton Conyers, Hutton
Conyers and Badsworth, Yorkshire:
1333, York. Three weeks of Michaelmas, 7 Edw. III, 1333. Robert de
Conyers, knight, quer., William de Ponte Burgi, clerk, def, of the
manors of Hoton Conyers, Norton Conyers, and Overdydensale'-: To hold
to Robert for life ; remainder, as to the manors of Hoton and Norton,
to Robert son of Thomas de Conyers and Joan daughter of Henry de
Melton and the heirs of their bodies ; remainder to the right heirs of
Robert de Conyers [the party]. As to the manor of Overdydensale, to
hold to Thomas son of Robert de Conyers for life ; remainder to the
said Robert (son of Thomas) and Joan and the heirs of their bodies ;
remainder to the right heirs of Robert [the party].
Yorkshire Archaeological Society, Record Series, Vol. 42, Feet of
Fines for Yorkshire, 1327-47 (1910) p. 52, No. 52
Robert Conyers and Joan had one daughter, Margaret. Robert Conyers
died sometime before 1343, when Joan had re-married to Thomas de
Eland. In 1343, the wardship of Margaret, daughter of Robert son of
Thomas de Conyers was granted to Thomas Eland and Joan, his wife.
Surtees Society, Vol. 119, Richard D'Aungerville of Bury (1910) p. 77
What happened to Margaret Conyers is uncertain, but she probably died
shortly afterwards.
Thomas de Eland and Joan Melton had one daughter, Isabel. Thomas pre-
deceased his father Sir John de Eland, who was murdered in a feud in
1350 and his elder brother John who was also murdered in 1351. Isabel,
who by that time was married to Sir John de Saville, became the
heiress of the Elands and carried Elland and Tankersley to the
Savilles.
The Scrope cartulary contains a deed which shows that after the death
of Thomas de Eland, Joan Melton married for a third time, to Sir
Christopher Mallory. In or before 1350, they sold the manor of Norton
Conyers to John de Carlton:
17 June 1350 at Norton Conyers, Re-grant by Christopher Maillore and
Joanna his wife to John son of Walter de Carleton, of their whole
manor of Norton Conyers with appurtenances. Also their lands in
'Armelay' and 'Heton Scales' which Joanna held in dower after the
death of her husband Sir Robert Coigners. To be held in perpetuity by
John and his heirs. Witnesses: John de Clother, Adam Forester of
Norton, John his son, Adam Warde of Norton, John Canan of Norton.
Scrope of Bolton Cartulary, p. 188, No. 502
I think that this deed puts paid to all those pedigrees where Joan
wife of Christopher Mallory is said to be the daughter of Robert
Conyers. Joan Melton and Christopher Mallory were the ancestors of the
Mallorys of Studely Royal, Yorkshire.
In 1355, Christopher and Joan quitclaimed all their rights in the
manor of Norton Conyers to John de Carlton:
Westminster. Octave of Trinity, 29 Edw. III , 1355. John de Carleton,
by Walter de Askham, his attorney, quer., Christopher Maillore,
chivaler, and Joan his wife, def., of the manor of Norton-Coignyers :
Release by Christopher and Joan of whatsoever they had in the manor
for the life of Joan, to John and his heirs. John gave 100 marks.
Yorkshire Archaeological Society, Record Series, Vol. 52, Feet of
Fines for Yorkshire, 1347-1377 (1915) p. 51, No. 16
In 1375, John de Carlton sold the manor of Norton Conyers to Richard
Scrope:
Westminster. Quindene of Michaelmas, 49 Edw. III, 1375. Quindene of
St. John Baptist, 50 Edw. III, 1376 Richard Lescrope, chivaler, quer.,
John de Carleton [?] and Alice his wife, def., of the manor of Norton-
Coniers near Ripon : To hold to Richard and his heirs (together with
10s. rent and the moiety of one knight's fee in the same manor, and
also the homage and service of William son of Robert de Norton-Coniers
and Margaret daughter of Robert de Tollerton, and their heirs), paying
£10 yearly to John and Alice, for their lives, and also to John for
his life one robe of an esquire's suit [unam robam de secta
armigerorum]. Power of distress. Warranty by John and Alice for
themselves and the heirs of John. Richard gave 200 marks.
Yorkshire Archaeological Society, Record Series, Vol. 52, Feet of
Fines for Yorkshire, 1347-1377 (1915) p. 199, No. 36
I'm not quite sure what happened next, but Richard Scrope probably
sold Norton Conyers to Richard Norton, Justice of the Common Pleas -
in 1395 he was holding Norton Conyers (Feet of Fines Yorkshire, CP
25/1/279/147, number 30). Richard Norton almost certainly wasn't born
before 1340-43 when Robert Conyers died. He was probably born about
1370, and is first noted as an advocate in 1399 and became serjeant-at-
law in 1401 (ODNB), I can't see how the later Nortons claimed to be
descended from the Conyers and adopted their arms. Successors they may
have been, but descendants seems highly unlikely.
If I find any more interesting snippets in British academia on the
internet, I'll let you know - anything for free appeals to my
Yorkshireness. I'm off to download the cartularies of Lanercost and
Nostell right now.
Regards,
John
TJ Booth
Jan 13, 2013, 10:07:54 AM1/13/13
to GenMedieval
On Sunday, January 13, 2013 12:44 AM, "John Watson" <watso...@gmail.com>
wrote :
<Snip>
John,
This was a great find - keep looking.
The chief justice was a Conyers by blood not by marriage. Glover's pedigree
for Norton p. 244 shows Justice Richard Norton's descent as :
Egbertus Conyers [ancestry not shown and uncertain]
I
Roger Conyers = Margaret dau & heir to Richard Norton of Norton
I
Adam Conyers called himself first Norton = Alice dau of . . Nunwicke
I
Sir Richard Norton, knight, chief justice of the Common Pleas . . [The
visitation of Suffolk shows Sir Richard with a brother, John, from whom the
Nortons of Halesworth Suffolk]
I do not think that Joan de Melton was mother of Isabel Eland. Foster's
pedigree identifies her as a dau of Gilbert Umfreville, but I've seen no
contemporary evidence to document that or further identify her Umfreville
ancestry . My chronology suggests that Isabel Eland m. Sir John Savile
sometime around 1350 (you noted before 1351) and they had children soon
thereafter. Given that Margaret Conyers became a ward of the Elands in 1343,
it would seem likely the Eland marriage was shortly before then, not enough
time for children shortly after 1350.
I have Joan de Melton and 3rd husband Christopher Mallory with a son Sir
William of Hutton Conyers, b. perhaps 1355, who m. Katherine Nunwicke
co-heir of Nunwicke by her father Sir Ralph. Alice Nunwicke who m. Adam
Conyers in the above pedigree as the heir of the other half of Nunwicke but
her father was apparently Sir Thomas [a short Nunwicke discussion in William
Grainge; Ripon Millenary; page 17 @
books.google.com/books?id=oJ4gAQAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA17]. The grandson of Sir
William Mallory and Katherine, William Esq., m. Dyonisia Tempest co-heir of
Studley, from whom the Mallorys of Studley. Dyonisia's sister, Isabel
Tempest, married Richard Norton son of Sir Richard the Chief Justice. For
documentation of this extra generation to the standard Norton pedigree see
my 2011 post @
archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2011-11/1321456869 .
Terry Booth
Chicago IL
wrote :
<Snip>
The Scrope cartulary contains a deed which shows that after the death of
Thomas de Eland, Joan Melton married for a third time, to Sir Christopher
Mallory. In or before 1350, they sold the manor of Norton Conyers to John de
Carlton:
<Snip>
Thomas de Eland, Joan Melton married for a third time, to Sir Christopher
Mallory. In or before 1350, they sold the manor of Norton Conyers to John de
Carlton:
In 1355, Christopher and Joan quitclaimed all their rights in the manor of
Norton Conyers to John de Carlton:
<Snip>
Norton Conyers to John de Carlton:
In 1375, John de Carlton sold the manor of Norton Conyers to Richard Scrope:
<Snip>
I'm not quite sure what happened next, but Richard Scrope probably sold
Norton Conyers to Richard Norton, Justice of the Common Pleas - in 1395 he
was holding Norton Conyers (Feet of Fines Yorkshire, CP 25/1/279/147, number
30). . . . I can't see how the later Nortons claimed to be descended from
Norton Conyers to Richard Norton, Justice of the Common Pleas - in 1395 he
was holding Norton Conyers (Feet of Fines Yorkshire, CP 25/1/279/147, number
the Conyers and adopted their arms. Successors they may have been, but
descendants seems highly unlikely.
<Snip>
descendants seems highly unlikely.
John,
This was a great find - keep looking.
The chief justice was a Conyers by blood not by marriage. Glover's pedigree
for Norton p. 244 shows Justice Richard Norton's descent as :
Egbertus Conyers [ancestry not shown and uncertain]
I
Roger Conyers = Margaret dau & heir to Richard Norton of Norton
I
Adam Conyers called himself first Norton = Alice dau of . . Nunwicke
I
Sir Richard Norton, knight, chief justice of the Common Pleas . . [The
visitation of Suffolk shows Sir Richard with a brother, John, from whom the
Nortons of Halesworth Suffolk]
I do not think that Joan de Melton was mother of Isabel Eland. Foster's
pedigree identifies her as a dau of Gilbert Umfreville, but I've seen no
contemporary evidence to document that or further identify her Umfreville
ancestry . My chronology suggests that Isabel Eland m. Sir John Savile
sometime around 1350 (you noted before 1351) and they had children soon
thereafter. Given that Margaret Conyers became a ward of the Elands in 1343,
it would seem likely the Eland marriage was shortly before then, not enough
time for children shortly after 1350.
I have Joan de Melton and 3rd husband Christopher Mallory with a son Sir
William of Hutton Conyers, b. perhaps 1355, who m. Katherine Nunwicke
co-heir of Nunwicke by her father Sir Ralph. Alice Nunwicke who m. Adam
Conyers in the above pedigree as the heir of the other half of Nunwicke but
her father was apparently Sir Thomas [a short Nunwicke discussion in William
Grainge; Ripon Millenary; page 17 @
books.google.com/books?id=oJ4gAQAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA17]. The grandson of Sir
William Mallory and Katherine, William Esq., m. Dyonisia Tempest co-heir of
Studley, from whom the Mallorys of Studley. Dyonisia's sister, Isabel
Tempest, married Richard Norton son of Sir Richard the Chief Justice. For
documentation of this extra generation to the standard Norton pedigree see
my 2011 post @
archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2011-11/1321456869 .
Terry Booth
Chicago IL
John P. Ravilious
Jan 13, 2013, 11:17:47 AM1/13/13
to
On Jan 13, 10:07 am, "TJ Booth" <tjbo...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Sunday, January 13, 2013 12:44 AM, "John Watson" <watsonjo...@gmail.com>
Sunday, 13 January, 2013
Dear John (and Terry),
A grand find! The basis for the later confusion over the origin
of Christopher Mallory's wife. And there are a few more notable
descendants for the otherwise poorly known Henry de Melton.
Terry, there is evidence for both (A) the birth of Isabel Eland
in or after 1348, and (B) her parents being Thomas de Eland and Joan
de Melton.
A. Isabel Eland's inheritance included the advowson of
Tankersley. Based on the evidence provided in Hunter's
South Yorkshire, she was born after 25 June 1348,
as she was still under guardianship on 25 June 1369. The
following presented to the living of Tankersley:
' Henry de Thornton, 19 Jan. 1363, on the presentation of
the guardian of the heir of sir John Eland, deceased.
He was removed because he had been ordained priest while
under age.
' William de Mirfield, 23 Aug. 1365, on the same
presentation. Died here.
' John Herle, 25 June 1369, on the same presentation.
Died here. ' [1]
B. Isabel Eland founded a chantry at Eland before 22 Jun
1396 [end of regnal year 19 Ric II] together with her
husband Sir John Savile, the foundation record of which
identifies her parents as 'Thomas de Eland and Joan his
wife:
' There was formerly a Chantry at Elland, which by
inquisition taken at Pontefract, 19 Richard II. appears
to have been founded for one chaplain, presentable by
sir John Savill, knt. and Isabel his wife, and their
heirs, within fifteen days from the time of any
vacation, for the said chaplain to celebrate therein,
at the altar of St. John Baptist, for the good estate
of John duke of Aquitain and Lancaster, of John Sayvill,
knt. and Isabel his wife, and the children of the said
John and Isabel, and the souls of their children after
death; and for the souls of Henry late earl of Lancaster,
John Sayvill, and Margery his wife, parents of said John
Sayvill, knt. also of Thomas de Eland, and Joan his wife,
parents of the said Isabel, of John Rylay, Thomas Cross,
Chaplain, and Richard Schepard, of Eland, and the friends
and benefactors of said John Sayvill, knt. and Isabel,
and for the souls of all the faithful deceased. ' [2]
I have not as yet found any earlier record for the activities of
the sons of Sir John Savile and Isabel Eland than a record of 10 April
1390 in which 'John Savyll, jun.' was a witness. I would theorize at
present that he was born ca 1365-1370, and his younger brother Henry
(later of Thornhill) ca 1366-1372. Henry's wife Elizabeth Thornhill
was allegedly born shortly before 24 Jan 1367/8, identified as being 2
years of age on 24 Jan 1369/70 [3].
Cheers,
John (R.)
Notes
[1] Hunter, South Yorkshire: the History and Topography of the
Deanery of Doncaster, in the Diocese and County of York, Vol. II
(London: Printed for the Author, by J. B. Nichols and Son, 1831), p.
304.
[2] John Crabtree, Gent., A Concise History of the Parish and
Vicarage of Halifax in the County of York (Halifax: Hartley and
Walker, 1836), p. 437.
[3] J. Horsfall Turner, Biographia Halifaxiensis, vol. I, p. 263.
> On Sunday, January 13, 2013 12:44 AM, "John Watson" <watsonjo...@gmail.com>
Dear John (and Terry),
A grand find! The basis for the later confusion over the origin
of Christopher Mallory's wife. And there are a few more notable
descendants for the otherwise poorly known Henry de Melton.
Terry, there is evidence for both (A) the birth of Isabel Eland
in or after 1348, and (B) her parents being Thomas de Eland and Joan
de Melton.
A. Isabel Eland's inheritance included the advowson of
Tankersley. Based on the evidence provided in Hunter's
South Yorkshire, she was born after 25 June 1348,
as she was still under guardianship on 25 June 1369. The
following presented to the living of Tankersley:
' Henry de Thornton, 19 Jan. 1363, on the presentation of
the guardian of the heir of sir John Eland, deceased.
He was removed because he had been ordained priest while
under age.
' William de Mirfield, 23 Aug. 1365, on the same
presentation. Died here.
' John Herle, 25 June 1369, on the same presentation.
Died here. ' [1]
B. Isabel Eland founded a chantry at Eland before 22 Jun
1396 [end of regnal year 19 Ric II] together with her
husband Sir John Savile, the foundation record of which
identifies her parents as 'Thomas de Eland and Joan his
wife:
' There was formerly a Chantry at Elland, which by
inquisition taken at Pontefract, 19 Richard II. appears
to have been founded for one chaplain, presentable by
sir John Savill, knt. and Isabel his wife, and their
heirs, within fifteen days from the time of any
vacation, for the said chaplain to celebrate therein,
at the altar of St. John Baptist, for the good estate
of John duke of Aquitain and Lancaster, of John Sayvill,
knt. and Isabel his wife, and the children of the said
John and Isabel, and the souls of their children after
death; and for the souls of Henry late earl of Lancaster,
John Sayvill, and Margery his wife, parents of said John
Sayvill, knt. also of Thomas de Eland, and Joan his wife,
parents of the said Isabel, of John Rylay, Thomas Cross,
Chaplain, and Richard Schepard, of Eland, and the friends
and benefactors of said John Sayvill, knt. and Isabel,
and for the souls of all the faithful deceased. ' [2]
I have not as yet found any earlier record for the activities of
the sons of Sir John Savile and Isabel Eland than a record of 10 April
1390 in which 'John Savyll, jun.' was a witness. I would theorize at
present that he was born ca 1365-1370, and his younger brother Henry
(later of Thornhill) ca 1366-1372. Henry's wife Elizabeth Thornhill
was allegedly born shortly before 24 Jan 1367/8, identified as being 2
years of age on 24 Jan 1369/70 [3].
Cheers,
John (R.)
Notes
[1] Hunter, South Yorkshire: the History and Topography of the
Deanery of Doncaster, in the Diocese and County of York, Vol. II
(London: Printed for the Author, by J. B. Nichols and Son, 1831), p.
304.
[2] John Crabtree, Gent., A Concise History of the Parish and
Vicarage of Halifax in the County of York (Halifax: Hartley and
Walker, 1836), p. 437.
[3] J. Horsfall Turner, Biographia Halifaxiensis, vol. I, p. 263.
hsone
Jan 13, 2013, 3:42:02 PM1/13/13
to
I too find this of enormous interest and will throw out another possible piece of confusion which may or not prove helpful.
Check out:
J. M. Kaye, The Eland Murders 1350-1351: A Study of Legend of the Eland Feud, The Yorkshire Architectural Journal, Vol 51, 1979, p. 69
If my notes are correct, this article suggests that Thomas Eland died January 3, 1344 at Tankersley. Also if correct this would be in conflict with some of the other interpretations above and place Isabel Eland's birthdate circa 1343-1344.
At any rate hope this helps you guys and that all of this together will give a clearer view of the possibilities and more importantly the correct placements.
Thanks for posting this interesting information.
HS
Check out:
J. M. Kaye, The Eland Murders 1350-1351: A Study of Legend of the Eland Feud, The Yorkshire Architectural Journal, Vol 51, 1979, p. 69
If my notes are correct, this article suggests that Thomas Eland died January 3, 1344 at Tankersley. Also if correct this would be in conflict with some of the other interpretations above and place Isabel Eland's birthdate circa 1343-1344.
At any rate hope this helps you guys and that all of this together will give a clearer view of the possibilities and more importantly the correct placements.
Thanks for posting this interesting information.
HS
TJ Booth
Jan 13, 2013, 6:40:02 PM1/13/13
to GenMedieval
On Sunday, January 13, 2013 10:17 AM, John P. Ravilious" <the...@aol.com>
wrote :
<Snip>
<Snip>
John,
Many thanks for these Eland records which I'd not found. They clearly
document Isabel's 'born after' birth date, the names of her parents and her
marriage to Sir John Savile.
I have Isabel's second son Henry Savile Esq. (m. Eliz Thornhill) as b. bef
1370 based on a 1390/91 record. [1] I've had problems with the dates for his
older brother John Savile - too many John Savile records. Given the evidence
you supplied for Isabel Eland's birthdate (b. aft 25 Jun 1348), your
earliest theorized birth dates for John and Henry look fine, but the latest
dates can likely be shortened by 2 years based on the above.
Terry Booth
Chicago IL
[1] UK National Archives; DD/SR/28/1/35; 14 Rich II [1390-91]. Contents:
Grant by Henry Sayvill' de Thornhill' and Elizabeth his wife to William de
Thornhill' son of Simon de Thornhill' of their manor of Colby etc and of all
their other lands etc presently held in Halton, Burton, Flekysburgh',
Haytheby, Theleby, Walcoytes, and Frisby, and else-where in the county of
Lincoln (Coleby, Li Halton, Li Burton, Li Flyxborough, Li Haytheby, Li
Thellby, Li Walcot, Li Firsby, Li)
wrote :
<Snip>
John,
Many thanks for these Eland records which I'd not found. They clearly
document Isabel's 'born after' birth date, the names of her parents and her
marriage to Sir John Savile.
I have Isabel's second son Henry Savile Esq. (m. Eliz Thornhill) as b. bef
1370 based on a 1390/91 record. [1] I've had problems with the dates for his
older brother John Savile - too many John Savile records. Given the evidence
you supplied for Isabel Eland's birthdate (b. aft 25 Jun 1348), your
earliest theorized birth dates for John and Henry look fine, but the latest
dates can likely be shortened by 2 years based on the above.
Terry Booth
Chicago IL
[1] UK National Archives; DD/SR/28/1/35; 14 Rich II [1390-91]. Contents:
Grant by Henry Sayvill' de Thornhill' and Elizabeth his wife to William de
Thornhill' son of Simon de Thornhill' of their manor of Colby etc and of all
their other lands etc presently held in Halton, Burton, Flekysburgh',
Haytheby, Theleby, Walcoytes, and Frisby, and else-where in the county of
Lincoln (Coleby, Li Halton, Li Burton, Li Flyxborough, Li Haytheby, Li
Thellby, Li Walcot, Li Firsby, Li)
Renia
Jan 13, 2013, 7:46:41 PM1/13/13
to
On 13/01/2013 06:44, John Watson wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> Following my recent discovery that it is possible to download PhD
> theses from British Universities for free, I have been looking for
> medieval material which might be available.
>
> I have recently downloaded a copy of the mainly 14th century cartulary
> of the Scrope family of Bolton, Yorkshire, available from the British
> Library Electronic Theses Online Service, Ethos http://ethos.bl.uk/Home.do
> (free registration required).
Thanks for this link. I've downloaded this, but instead of getting a
> Dear all,
>
> Following my recent discovery that it is possible to download PhD
> theses from British Universities for free, I have been looking for
> medieval material which might be available.
>
> I have recently downloaded a copy of the mainly 14th century cartulary
> of the Scrope family of Bolton, Yorkshire, available from the British
> Library Electronic Theses Online Service, Ethos http://ethos.bl.uk/Home.do
> (free registration required).
PDF, I've ended up with a .zip file which won't open. Any ideas?
Renia
Jan 13, 2013, 8:03:19 PM1/13/13
to
John Watson
Jan 13, 2013, 8:19:31 PM1/13/13
to
On Jan 14, 6:40 am, "TJ Booth" <tjbo...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Sunday, January 13, 2013 10:17 AM, John P. Ravilious" <ther...@aol.com>
Terry and John,
John de Saville and Isabel were married before 1353:
Westminster. Octave of St. John Baptist, 27 Edw. III, 1353. Quindene
of Easter, 28 Edw. III, 1354. Hugh de Brerelay and Maude his wife,
quer., Robert de Nevill of Horneby, chivaler, def., of the manor of
Brerelay (except the advowson of the Priory of Bretton in the same
manor) : To hold (together with 10s. rent and 2 knights' fees in the
same manor, and the homage and service of : .. John de Seyvill of
Tankerslay and Isabel his wife ...
Yorkshire Archaeological Society, Vol. 52, Feet of Fines Yorkshire
1347-1377 (1915) p. 45, No. 34
John de Saville and Isabel had two sons born before 1372:
Westminster. Octave of Martinmas, 46 Edw. III , 1372. John Sayville of
Eland, chivaler, and Isabel his wife, quer., John de Brampton, parson
of the church of Baddesworth, def., of the manor of Eland, and the
moiety of the manor of Tankerslay : To hold to John Sayville and
Isabel for their lives ; remainder to John son of the same John
Sayvill and the heirs of his body ; remainder to Henry brother of John
the son and the heirs of his body ; remainder to the right heirs of
Isabel.
Yorkshire Archaeological Society, Vol. 52, Feet of Fines Yorkshire
1347-1377 (1915) p. 157, No. 2
Regards,
John
> On Sunday, January 13, 2013 10:17 AM, John P. Ravilious" <ther...@aol.com>
John de Saville and Isabel were married before 1353:
Westminster. Octave of St. John Baptist, 27 Edw. III, 1353. Quindene
of Easter, 28 Edw. III, 1354. Hugh de Brerelay and Maude his wife,
quer., Robert de Nevill of Horneby, chivaler, def., of the manor of
Brerelay (except the advowson of the Priory of Bretton in the same
manor) : To hold (together with 10s. rent and 2 knights' fees in the
same manor, and the homage and service of : .. John de Seyvill of
Tankerslay and Isabel his wife ...
Yorkshire Archaeological Society, Vol. 52, Feet of Fines Yorkshire
1347-1377 (1915) p. 45, No. 34
John de Saville and Isabel had two sons born before 1372:
Westminster. Octave of Martinmas, 46 Edw. III , 1372. John Sayville of
Eland, chivaler, and Isabel his wife, quer., John de Brampton, parson
of the church of Baddesworth, def., of the manor of Eland, and the
moiety of the manor of Tankerslay : To hold to John Sayville and
Isabel for their lives ; remainder to John son of the same John
Sayvill and the heirs of his body ; remainder to Henry brother of John
the son and the heirs of his body ; remainder to the right heirs of
Isabel.
Yorkshire Archaeological Society, Vol. 52, Feet of Fines Yorkshire
1347-1377 (1915) p. 157, No. 2
Regards,
John
TJ Booth
Jan 14, 2013, 9:48:49 AM1/14/13
to GenMedieval
On Sunday, January 13, 2013 7:19 PM, John Watson wrote:
<Snip>
John de Saville and Isabel were married before 1353:
Westminster. Octave of St. John Baptist, 27 Edw. III, 1353. Quindene
of Easter, 28 Edw. III, 1354. Hugh de Brerelay and Maude his wife,
quer., Robert de Nevill of Horneby, chivaler, def., of the manor of
Brerelay (except the advowson of the Priory of Bretton in the same
manor) : To hold (together with 10s. rent and 2 knights' fees in the
same manor, and the homage and service of : .. John de Seyvill of
Tankerslay and Isabel his wife ...
Yorkshire Archaeological Society, Vol. 52, Feet of Fines Yorkshire
1347-1377 (1915) p. 45, No. 34
<Snip>
Interesting. Any possibility this Fine is misdated (i.e. 37/38 Edw III?).
Per John Ravilious' post, Isabel Eland was b. aft 25 Jun 1348. Easter time
1353 means Isabel was only 4 years old.
If correctly dated, the term 'robbing the cradle' would seem applicable. No
doubt it caused a bit of gossip among Savile's family, neighbors and
tenants - along with my own some 6 centuries later.
Terry Booth
Chicago IL
<Snip>
John de Saville and Isabel were married before 1353:
Westminster. Octave of St. John Baptist, 27 Edw. III, 1353. Quindene
of Easter, 28 Edw. III, 1354. Hugh de Brerelay and Maude his wife,
quer., Robert de Nevill of Horneby, chivaler, def., of the manor of
Brerelay (except the advowson of the Priory of Bretton in the same
manor) : To hold (together with 10s. rent and 2 knights' fees in the
same manor, and the homage and service of : .. John de Seyvill of
Tankerslay and Isabel his wife ...
Yorkshire Archaeological Society, Vol. 52, Feet of Fines Yorkshire
1347-1377 (1915) p. 45, No. 34
Interesting. Any possibility this Fine is misdated (i.e. 37/38 Edw III?).
Per John Ravilious' post, Isabel Eland was b. aft 25 Jun 1348. Easter time
1353 means Isabel was only 4 years old.
If correctly dated, the term 'robbing the cradle' would seem applicable. No
doubt it caused a bit of gossip among Savile's family, neighbors and
tenants - along with my own some 6 centuries later.
Terry Booth
Chicago IL
Matthew Langley
Jan 31, 2016, 10:52:15 PM1/31/16
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mirandan...@gmail.com
Jun 28, 2018, 12:25:39 PM6/28/18
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