Affair of Alice Fitzalan & Cardinal Henry Beaufort - Evidence?
Brad Verity
husband Sir Edward Stradling are mentioned in his will.
Does anyone know what the contemporary evidence is that makes Alice,
daughter of the earl of Arundel and wife of John de Cherleton, lord of
Powis, the mistress of the Cardinal and mother of his daughter?
The only source I can find in an archive search is from a Feb. 1999
post by John C. Parsons:
"Antony Wagner's *English Genealogy* acknowledges that Cardinal
Beaufort and
Alice Fitzalan had a daughter who married into the Stradling family."
Wagner's book was published in 1972, and I'll try to track it down but
if anyone has access and can post Wagner's source for Alice Fitzalan
being the mother, I'd appreciate it.
Also, I vaguely remember mention of a modern biography of Cardinal
Beaufort - does one exist? Anyone know the author or title?
Cheers and Thanks, --------Brad
John Higgins
reference to the connection between Henry Beaufort and the Stradlings.
Perhaps Parsons was mistaken...??
PA2 says that the mother of Henry's illegitimate daughter "was said by
Stradling descendants" to be Alice FitzAlan....no particularly
authoritative.
John Higgins
jthi...@surfree.com
"Who begot whom is a most amusing kind of hunting" - Horace Walpole
all...@pacbell.net
the 1400-1500 series shows the Stradling marriage. It shows a reference to
DNB. So there is a place to start.
Kay Allen AG
Original Message:
-----------------
From: John Higgins jthi...@surfree.com
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 09:03:02 -0700
To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
Subject: RE: Affair of Alice Fitzalan & Cardinal Henry Beaufort - Evidence?
John Higgins
jthi...@surfree.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .
Linda Jack
In regard to your inquiry on Cardinal Beaufort, I did see this
biography. Linda
ISBN: 0198201354
Author: Harriss, G. L.
Title: Cardinal Beaufort : a study of Lancastrian ascendancy and
decline / G.L. Harriss.
Imprint: Oxford : Clarendon Press ; New York : Oxford University Press,
c1988.
Brad Verity
> Neither _English Genealogy_ or Pedigree and Progress_ have this. Bartrum in
> the 1400-1500 series shows the Stradling marriage. It shows a reference to
> DNB. So there is a place to start.
> From: John Higgins jthi...@surfree.com
> In the 3rd edition (1983) of Wagner's "English Genealogy", I cannot find any
> reference to the connection between Henry Beaufort and the Stradlings.
> Perhaps Parsons was mistaken...??
>
> PA2 says that the mother of Henry's illegitimate daughter "was said by
> Stradling descendants" to be Alice FitzAlan....no particularly
> authoritative.
This newsgroup is such a great reference source. Thank you, John and
Kay, for your replies.
UCLA Library had Wagner's "English Genealogy", and though the origins
of the Stradlings are discussed in it, no mention is made of either
Cardinal Beaufort and his daughter Jane, nor of Alice (Fitzalan), lady
of Powis.
I also found Bartrum's "Welsh Genealogies 1400-1500" series, and as
Kay pointed out, the marriage of Sir Edward Stradling with Jane, the
daughter of Henry Beaufort, and their resulting son Henry Stradling,
is given. But it is DWB (Dictionary of Welsh Biography), not DNB,
that Bartrum cites as his source, and unfortunately, I could not find
a copy of DWB.
Luckliy, though, I found a 1994 book "Conquerors and Conquered in
Medieval Wales" by Welsh medieval historian R. A. Griffiths, who has a
chapter 'The Rise of the Stradlings of St Donat's':
"Born in 1389, Sir Edward Stradling married Jane, the illegitimate
daughter of Henry Beaufort (later bishop of Winchester and cardinal),
a great-uncle of Henry VI and leader of one of the factions in the
young king's Council. At Agincourt in 1415 he had fought in the
retinue of Duke Humphrey of Gloucester, a brother of Henry V and,
later, Beaufort's principal antagonist. But his marriage about 1423
brought Sir Edward into the political orbit of his shrewd and
assertive father-in-law, and to the bishop he may have owed his
appointment as chamberlain of south Wales in December 1423, a position
he held until March 1437."
In footnotes, Griffiths cites among his sources for the above:
1) DWB, p. 925
2) J. Nichols (ed.), "A Collection of Royal Wills" (1780), p.329
3) K.B. McFarlane, 'At the Death-bed of Cardinal Beaufort', "Studies
in Medieval History presented to F.M. Powicke" (Oxford, 1948), p. 425
n.5
So, Jane as illegitimate daughter of Cardinal Beaufort appears to be
confirmed (I ordered from the Reserve Library the 1988 biography of
the Cardinal and will check it tomorrow), but so far no mention of
Alice, lady of Powis as her mother.
According to Griffiths, Jane and Sir Edward Stradling had three sons,
1) Henry "born in 1423 and married to a sister of Sir William Herbert,
later earl of Pembroke"; 2) John Stradling, who "entered the Church
and became archdeacon of Llandaff in 1448; but he too may have
deserted Wales, acquiring the rectory of North Tawton in the diocese
of Exeter in 1454"; and 3) David Stradling, the youngest, who "lived
in Somerset, where he kept close to his mother's apron-strings."
Alice, lady of Powis, must have died before 1401, as there is no
mention of her or dower lands in the IPM of her husband John de
Cherleton, lord of Powis. With Jane Beaufort married and a mother in
1423, it's not impossible for Alice to have been her mother, but it's
certainly not likely that Alice and Henry Beaufort had a liaison
BEFORE Alice married the lord of Powis, which was probably in the
mid-to-late 1370s, as her father was granted custody of all the
Cherleton lands in 1374.
Hopefully, Cardinal Beaufort's biography will shed some further light,
or at least point to a source for the Alice Fitzalan affair.
Cheers, --------Brad
Brad Verity
I had a look at this book this afternoon. Harriss makes mention of
Jane, Cardinal Beaufort's illegitimate daughter, twice.
"Finally, he made a number of bequests by name to his relatives and
members of his familia. In the original will [dated 20 Jan. 1447]
these were confined to his natural daughter, Joan, the wife of Sir
Edward Stradling, who received plate, and to one Hans Nulles, an
unidentified member of his household." [Harriss, p. 379-80]
As the will is not transcribed, I don't know exactly how Jane
Stradling is referred to in the document, i.e. as "my daughter"?
More relevant is Harriss' first statement on p. 16: "Bishop Henry was
forging a less orthodox connection, for at about this time [August
1402, when his younger brother Thomas Beaufort received his first
military command as captain of Ludlow] he fathered his only known
bastard, Joan, by Alice, the recently widowed Lady Charleton of Powys
and daughter of the late earl of Arundel. [Footnote: K.B. McFarlane,
'At the deathbed of Cardinal Beaufort' in "England in the Fifteenth
Century", 135 n. 113]"
So, here is what Harriss' source historian Bruce McFarlane had to say:
"Joan Stradling is said to have been Beaufort's child by Alice,
daughter of Richard, earl of Arundel. The Earl Richard who died in
1375 had a daughter Alice, from 1364 to 1397 the wife of Thomas
Holland, earl of Kent; she died in 1416 (G.E.C., "Complete Peerage",
new ed. vii. 156; M.R. James, "Catalogue of MSS. of St. John's
College, Cambridge", pp. 269-70). She is a less likely candidate than
her niece, Alice, daughter of the Earl Richard who died in 1397. This
Alice is generally described but without evidence as the earl's
youngest daughter ("Royal Wills", pp. 128 and 144; M.A. Tierney,
"History of Arundel", pp. 192-3; "Dict. Nat. Biog.", s.n. Richard
Fitzalan III): if so she must have been born between 1383 and 1385).*
Before Mar. 1393 she had married John Charleton of Powys who died in
1401 (ibid. iii. 161). Her liaison with Beaufort therefore probably
took place in her widowhood, i.e. when he was already a bishop.**
This is borne out by the date of their daughter's marriage with Sir
Edward Stradling (c.1389-1453) of St. Donat's, Glamorgan and Halsway,
Somerset, in or before 1423 ("Cal. Papal Registers, Letters", vii.
300; "Cartae et Munimenta de Glamorgan", ed G.T. Clark, 1910 ed., iv.
1580-5). Sir Henry Stradling, the eldest son of this marriage, was
thirty years old when he succeeded his father in 1453 ("Stradling
Correspondence", ed. J.M. Traherne, pp. xviii-xx)."
*This is certainly wrong. Margaret was the youngest daughter, still
unmarried when her father wrote his will in March 1392. The birth
order of the girls is most likely: Eleanor, Elizabeth, Alice, Joan,
Margaret, but I'm working on a separate post about them.
**Henry Beaufort was made bishop of Lincoln in the summer of 1398.
Since McFarlane does not give us a source for the statement "Joan
Stradling is said [by whom???] to have been Beaufort's child by Alice,
daughter of Richard, earl of Arundel", we're back to square one.
The historiography on this is fascinating in and of itself.
Cheers, ------------Brad
Tim Powys-Lybbe
bat...@hotmail.com (Brad Verity) wrote:
<On Harriss' book on Cardinal Beaufort>
> I had a look at this book this afternoon. Harriss makes mention of
> Jane, Cardinal Beaufort's illegitimate daughter, twice.
>
> "Finally, he made a number of bequests by name to his relatives and
> members of his familia. In the original will [dated 20 Jan. 1447]
> these were confined to his natural daughter, Joan, the wife of Sir
> Edward Stradling, who received plate, and to one Hans Nulles, an
> unidentified member of his household." [Harriss, p. 379-80]
>
> As the will is not transcribed, I don't know exactly how Jane
> Stradling is referred to in the document, i.e. as "my daughter"?
Here's the words from Testamenta Vetusta p. 251 (the will is printed
over six pages but may be an abstract nevertheless):
"Item I bequeath to Johanna, wife of Edward Stradling, Knight, two dozen
dishes, four chargers, XII salt-cellars, etc and c li in gold."
And in the second codicil to his will, p. 255, there is:
"Item, I bequeath to Edward Stradling, Knight, a certain portion of
silver vessels, according to the discretion of my executors."
The bequest to Johanna was the first ot named persons after the gift of
a cup of gold to the king, Henry.
The will was dated 20 Jan 1446 and the second codicil was 2 Sept 1447.
Nicolas adds a note to say that Johanna was "said to have been his
natural daughter by Alice, daughter of Richard Earl of Arundel, and
sister of Thomas Fitz-Alan alias Arundel, Archbishop of Canterbury"
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a patchwork of bygones: http://powys.org
Brad Verity
> Here's the words from Testamenta Vetusta p. 251 (the will is printed
> over six pages but may be an abstract nevertheless):
>
> "Item I bequeath to Johanna, wife of Edward Stradling, Knight, two dozen
> dishes, four chargers, XII salt-cellars, etc and c li in gold."
>
> And in the second codicil to his will, p. 255, there is:
>
> "Item, I bequeath to Edward Stradling, Knight, a certain portion of
> silver vessels, according to the discretion of my executors."
>
> The bequest to Johanna was the first ot named persons after the gift of
> a cup of gold to the king, Henry.
Thank you very much for this, Tim. As I feared, no direct statement
of paternity was made in the Cardinal's will.
> The will was dated 20 Jan 1446 and the second codicil was 2 Sept 1447.
This is an error on Nicolas' part - the Cardinal's will "was dated 20
Jan. 1447 and the codicils 7 and 9 Apr. He died 11 Apr." [Harriss, p.
378 n. 7]
> Nicolas adds a note to say that Johanna was "said to have been his
> natural daughter by Alice, daughter of Richard Earl of Arundel, and
> sister of Thomas Fitz-Alan alias Arundel, Archbishop of Canterbury"
Well, this is very interesting - it's not Alice, lady of Powis, who
was "said" in Nicolas' time to have been the mother of Jane Stradling,
it was her aunt Alice, the Countess of Kent (who we know died in
1416).
But the whole thing seems guesswork that has become permanent part of
the historical record. McFarlane went by the statement of Hunt in
DNB, who seems to have gone by the statement of Nicolas in "Royal
Wills".
Meanwhile, Beaufort's will does not describe Jane Stradling as "my
daughter", and, though the fact that she and her husband are among the
handful of persons directly named in it leads weight to the assumption
that she was his daughter, it is not a direct statement of paternity.
Other than the Cardinal's will, which doesn't give us a direct
statement of relationship, we so far have no other 15th-century
document that offers evidence of Jane being the daughter of the
Cardinal by an affair with Alice Fitzalan. Alice is already married
to Lord Cherleton in her father's will dated March 1392, so she could
not have born Jane between that year and 1401, or English law would
have Jane as the daughter and heiress of Lord Cherleton.
The Cherleton lands that made up the lordship of Powys were held in
chief. As the dower of the previous widowed lady of Powis (Joan
Stafford, d. 1397), and the dower of the subsequent widowed lady of
Powis (Elizabeth Berkeley of Beverstone, d. 1478) are documented in
the Chancery, I find it very puzzling why Alice (Fitzalan) Cherleton's
dower, if she survived her husband past 1401, would not be.
As there's no mention of Alice after 1401, I have to assume she
predeceased her husband, and thus could not be Jane's mother.
I'm really curious now as to what Nicolas' source was for his footnote
in "Royal Wills."
Thanks again, Tim.
Cheers, --------Brad
Leo van de Pas
Cahiers de Saint Louis mentions Henry de Beaufort and Alice Fitzalan's
relationship on (at least) two pages, page 95 and 875. On page 95 no sources
are given, but for page 875 three sources are given. I hope they can help?
Dictionary of Welsh Biography
G.T.Clark, Genealogies of the Older families of... Glamorgan (1886) (sic)
J.E.Griffith, Pedigrees of Anglesey and Cornarvonshire Families (1914) (sic)
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
John Higgins
work, it's pretty well buried. The only reference I can find to Henry
Beaufort, cardinal and bishop of Lincoln, says that he died sp, without any
qualification of illegitimate offspring or mention of Alice FitzAlan. If
the Stradling family is covered in Griffith, it's also well-buried and
doesn't appear in the index (they're definitely outside the gographic scope
of Griffith's work).
Clark's work (also titled "Limbus Patrum Morganiae et Glamorganiae") seems
to be the most commonly cited reference for the genealogy of the Stradling
family. I believe there's a film copy available through the FHL, but I
haven't seen it yet.
John Higgins
jthi...@surfree.com
"Who begot whom is a most amusing kind of hunting" - Horace Walpole
Brenda...@xtra.co.nz
but check his will
"His will names his daughter and her husband. The mother of his
daughter was said to have been Alice fitz Alan, wife of John
Cherleton, 4th Lord Cherleton of Powis "
Brendan Wilson
Researching: Lowther of Lowther,Westmoreland:Clifford Yks:Brennan,Ballyhack,Wexford:Fitzgibbon,of French Park Rosscommon:Prendergast Waterford:Rowsell & Gregory, Yeovill Som:Wilson,Stockholm:Peters,Hamburg
Brad Verity
> Ihave in my records can't say where I saw this.
> but check his will
>
> "His will names his daughter and her husband. The mother of his
> daughter was said to have been Alice fitz Alan, wife of John
> Cherleton, 4th Lord Cherleton of Powis "
Thanks, Brendan. Tim Powys-Lybbe has already kindly posted the
relevant passages from the Cardinal's will and codicil. Jane
Stradling and her husband are mentioned and given generous bequests,
but no direct relationship ("my daughter", "my son") is stated.
Still, the fact that they are in the will is very strong evidence that
Jane was the Cardinal's daughter.
As for Alice being Jane's mother, we are still trying to determine the
original source for "said to have been". The earliest source checked
in this thread so far has been Nicolas, who stated in his 1826
"Testamenta Vetusta" that Jane's mother was Alice, sister of the
Archbishop Arundel (who would be Alice, Countess of Kent, aunt of
Alice, lady of Powis). Nicolas, who was the source for the statement
in the 1885 Cardinal Beaufort article by Hunt in DNB, didn't provide a
source for his assertion, but a source that Douglas Richardson
provided me, I think, is the key to the matter.
The sixth volume of "Collectanea Top. et Gen.", published in 1840,
has, on p. 20 footnote f :
"Vincent says she [Alice Arundel] was married to Cardinal Beaufort,
before he was in orders, and had a daughter, Jane, married to Sir
Edward Stradling (Vinc. upon Brooke, pg. 27), and, quotes as his
authority, Dr. Powell's treatise of the Conquest of Glamorganshire..
In the pedigrees of Stradling (Vinc. Chaos, p. 118, and Le Neve's
Baronets, vol. i, p. 5.) Sir Edward Stradling is said to marry Jane,
daughter of Henry Beaufort, where Alice Fitzalan is given to the
Cardinal as a wife. Sandford and Le Neve style her base daughter".
Le Neve, I believe, was Somerset Herald Peter Le Neve (1661-1729), and
Sandford was Francis Sandford (1630-1694), who wrote the definitive
17th-century genealogy of the Kings of England. I'll try and track
down both of their works (the UCLA Library catalogue says they are in
the Special Collections) and see if they provide sources for their
statements.
But for Windsor Herald Augustine Vincent (abt. 1584-1626), the
footnote provides us the man's statement from his 1622 book on
corrections to York Herald Ralph Brooke, and his source for it.
Vincent stated that Alice was married to Cardinal Beaufort before he
entered holy orders. This is impossible. Alice was married to Lord
Cherleton before March 1392 (when her father wrote his will), and
Henry Beaufort, according to the DNB article on him, "spent the
greater part of his youth at Aachen, where he read the civil and the
canon law. He was made prebendary of Thame 1389, and of Sutton 1391,
both at Lincoln, and of Riccall at York in 1390. He held the deanery
of Wells in 1397, and, having been appointed bishop of Lincoln by
papal provision, was consecrated 14 July 1398, after the death of John
Bokyngham [q.v.]. The previous year he became chancellor of the
university of Oxford." Vincent's authority for his erroneous
assertion is Dr. Powell's treatise on the Conquest of Glamorganshire.
Luckily, modern Welsh historian R.A. Griffiths discussed Dr. Powel's
work in the chapter 'The Rise of the Stradlings of St Donat's' in his
1994 book "Conquerors and Conquered in Medieval Wales".
"In 1584 there came from a London press Dr David Powel's 'The Historie
of Cambria'. Although primarily based upon a translation of the
'Chronicle of the Princes', Powel had his own distinctive contribution
to make to the volume, for among other things he included the treatise
recently written by Edward Stradling under the title 'The Winning of
the lordship of Glamorgan'. On one of his visits to the court of
Queen Elizabeth, Stradling had met Sir William Cecil, her principal
secretary; the conversation had turned to pedigrees and coats of arms,
for Cecil was concerned to secure a respectable lineage for himself.
The Welsh border seemed to offer the best prospect and he eagerly
besought Stradling to bring his own pedigree when next he was in
London. Cecil's interest in the Stradlings was all the greater
because they, like the Cecils, claimed to have had ancestors who
assisted Robert fitz Hamo in the conquest of Glamorgan. Powel, a
fellow of All Souls, thus became the publicist of the desired descents
of both Cecils and Stradlings."
So, the root of the Alice Fitzalan/Cardinal Beaufort affair seems to
be a legend of Tudor-era descendants of Sir Edward and Jane Stradling.
There is no late-14th/early-15th century documentation to support
this affair at all. In fact, the surviving documentation entirely
discounts it. We know Alice was married to Lord Cherleton before
1392, and could not have had Jane before her marriage. An affair with
Henry Beaufort during her marriage, would have legally made Jane the
daughter and sole heiress of Lord Cherleton, and there would have had
to have been proceedings to bastardize her. That leaves the affair of
Alice and Beaufort occurring after the 1401 death of Lord Cherleton,
which is what modern historians K.B. McFarlane and G.L. Harriss
proposed.
But the documentation doesn't support Alice having survived her
husband. According to his IPMs, Sir John Cherleton of Powys died on
19 October 1401. The king issued a writ to the escheator in the
county of Salop and the adjacent march of Wales from Westminster on 23
October, and to the escheator and mayor of London from Westminster on
28 October, to take into the king's hand the lands Cherleton held.
The Shropshire and adjacent march of Wales inquisition was held at
Shrewsbury on 3 November 1401, and the London IPM on 12 November.
Neither mention Alice at all – they both return Edward Cherleton,
knight (aged 28 and more according to Shropshire and aged 30 and more
according to London), brother of John, as the sole heir.
From Fine Rolls: "22 Nov. 1401, Westminster. Order to the escheator
in the county of Salop and the adjacent march of Wales to cause Edward
de Cherlton, knight, the brother and heir of John de Cherlton of
Powys, 'chivaler', to have full seisin of all the lands which his said
brother held of the king in chief or was seised of in his demesne as
of fee on the day of his death, as the king has taken his homage and
fealty. By p.s. Order in like terms to William (recte John)
Shadeworth, mayor of London and escheator therein."
No dower – the widow of the lord of Powis could not simply disappear
from records and land transactions if she was living beyond 1401, even
if she was having an affair with the brother of the king. Alice had
to have predeceased her husband.
This Beaufort/Fitzalan affair is a very interesting example of a
Visitation-like legend that has become part of established history via
Nicolas and the DNB. The Tudor-era Stradlings either wanted to tie
themselves more strongly into the great noble families of the 14th
century (Fitzalan, Bohun, Warenne, etc.), or the family legend had
some kernels of truth to it – perhaps Jane's mother was a woman in the
household of the lord and lady of Powis, or in the household of Alice,
the widowed Countess of Kent (whose daughter Margaret was married to
Henry Beaufort's brother).
But, in the absence of more definitive evidence, I think we need to
recognize it as a legend.
Cheers, ----------Brad
Reedpcgen
it as a legend.>>
That this female (and her husband) was so prominently mentioned and provided
for in the Cardinal's will is an indication there may be a direct blood tie.
One normally would not put such bequests on a female servant, and certaily we
are not suggesting she was a mistress of the cardinal. What we do not have any
evidence for is the identity of the mother.
It has been a while since I looked at this line, but I'll try to remember to
glance at Dwnn and Llyfr Baglan to see what they say. It is also worth noting
that Welshmen took much more care and pride in their pedigrees than Englishmen
of the same period did. I've seen the pedigrees drawn up by Cecil among the
State Papers.
I think there is still much to check before dismissing it as complete fiction
(which is the direction this seems to be taking here). A blood connection to
Cardinal Beaufort would itself be quite an important matter, regardless of the
mother. Illegitimacy was not viewed the same way in Wales were political
matches were concerned.
Paul
Brad Verity
> That this female (and her husband) was so prominently mentioned and provided
> for in the Cardinal's will is an indication there may be a direct blood tie.
> One normally would not put such bequests on a female servant, and certaily we
> are not suggesting she was a mistress of the cardinal. What we do not have any
> evidence for is the identity of the mother.
Whoops - sorry I was unclear. I didn't mean there was no evidence for
Jane being the daughter of Cardinal Beaufort - I feel there's very
strong evidence for that (the will, Sir Edward Stradling's political
appointments after the 1423 marriage, etc.)
What I feel is not established at all except - apparently - by
Tudor-era Stradling family account, is an Alice, daughter of an Earl
of Arundel, being the mother.
> It has been a while since I looked at this line, but I'll try to remember to
> glance at Dwnn and Llyfr Baglan to see what they say. It is also worth noting
> that Welshmen took much more care and pride in their pedigrees than Englishmen
> of the same period did. I've seen the pedigrees drawn up by Cecil among the
> State Papers.
Who were Dwnn and Llyfr Baglan?
> I think there is still much to check before dismissing it as complete fiction
> (which is the direction this seems to be taking here). A blood connection to
> Cardinal Beaufort would itself be quite an important matter, regardless of the
> mother.
Of course. Again, I don't feel the Cardinal Beaufort paternity is
simply legend. The evidence is not definitive, but it's very strong.
> Illegitimacy was not viewed the same way in Wales were political
> matches were concerned.
No, but the chronology just doesn't seem to work with the evidence so
far, for Alice, Lady of Powis, to be the mother.
Cheers, --------Brad
Glyn Jones
lose out in their share of loot, if they could not prove descent.
And illegitimacy was no bar to inheritance of belongings or position -
illegitimate children had the same rights as their legitimate siblings.
Glyn
Glyn Jones FRPS
www.glynphoto.com
Remember Tryweryn
Join the Royal Photographic Society
Join Creative Monochrome
----- Original Message -----
From: "Reedpcgen" <reed...@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2003 2:01 AM
Subject: Re: Affair of Alice Fitzalan & Cardinal Henry Beaufort - Evidence?
> ______________________________
Reedpcgen
Jane being the daughter of Cardinal Beaufort - I feel there's very strong
evidence for that (the will, Sir Edward Stradling's political appointments
after the 1423 marriage, etc.)
What I feel is not established at all except - apparently - by Tudor-era
Stradling family account, is an Alice, daughter of an Earl of Arundel, being
the mother.>>
Yes, I hope I didn't take your comments out of context. At least we've
clarified things, and are in agreement. One would need good, specific reason
for determining who the mother was.
Dwnn refers to _Heraldic Visitations of Wales and Part of the Marches between
the years 1586 and 1613 by Lewys Dwnn_ and Llyfr Baglan is _Llyfr Baglan, or,
The Book of Baglan, compiled between the years 1600 and 1607_, by John
Williams. Neither is without flaw, but Llyfr Baglan tends to be very accurate,
overall.
The problem with Clark's Genealogies of Morgan and Glamorgan (Limbus Patrum
Morganiae et Glamorganiae) is that it is a modern compilation, so no better
than a general guide.
I was not intending these sources to be primary evidence, but a possible
indication of what was believed. Dwnn and Llyfr Baglan did not suffer the same
problems as Tudor and Stuart visitations in England at that period, where
families were attempting to pay off the herald to establish a more noble
lineage (is some instances).
I did see a reference in a rather early published source concerning Jane's
parentage to the papers of the Stradling Baronet, two centuries ago, so it is
possible there may be some family muniments (perhaps now deposited somewhere),
but I don't know if they would necessarily mention her mother.
Paul
Reedpcgen
illegitimate children had the same rights as their legitimate siblings.>>
Not where English law concerning landed property held in capite was involved
(but I understand what you are saying). If someone objected to an heir because
they were illegitimate, where land was held by the crown, there could be a
problem. If no one said anything, it might be passed over.
Paul
Douglas Richardson
I found the following information online tonight regarding Sir Edward
Stradling and his wife, Joan. I presume the source given below for
this information is the same one I mentioned this past week in an
e-mail from the PRO which work they indicated was edited or written by
T. Carte. Curiously, the PRO cited this book using a French
translation of the title. I believe T. Carte the author/editor is an
English historian. I presume that "E S, Militi" below is intended for
Edward Stradling, Knight, who is known to have had a wife, Joan
["Johanne"] and a son, Henry ["Henrico"]. If I interpret the record
below correctly, it indicates that Joan (Beaufort) Stradling was
living as late as 1451/2.
If anyone has access to the actual volume by T. Carte, I'd appreciate
it if they would post a transcript of the specific item found in
Volume II, page 326 here on the newsgroup.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
- - - - - - - - -
Source: Catalog of the Gascon Roll ( two vols from Henry III - Edward
IV)
vol II:-
· p 260 dated 1426-7 or 5th year of Henry VI "Edwardus Stradling,
Miles. Teste Rege apud Westminster 24 Martii"
· p.326 -1451/2 - or 30th year HVI
"De licentia danda E S, Militi, Johanne uxori ejus, Henrico filio fuo,
& aliis eskippandi lanas ad partes Britanniae pro redemptione fua.
Teste Rege apud Cantuariam 16 die Augusti.
· p.297 - 1439/40 - 18th year H.VI "Johannes Stradling, Armiger, qui
ad partes Picardie profecturus est, habet literas de protectione.
Teste ut supra 3 Januarii"
bat...@hotmail.com (Brad Verity) wrote in message news:<8ed1b63.03041...@posting.google.com>...
Douglas Richardson
Below please find references to Sir Edward Stradling taken from
various volumes of Calendar of Patent Rolls. I found this information
online this evening. The website address for this information is:
http://www.stradling.org.uk/docs/Cpr.htm
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
- - - - - -
1422-1429
· p168 - Dec.4.1423, Westminster -
Appointment., during pleasure, by advice of the council, of Edward
Stradlyng, king's knight, to be his chamberlain and receiver of South
Wales, at the.usual wages and fees; the said Edward having, found
security, viz, himself in 500 marks and John Cheyne and William Wolf,
king's knights, in 100 marks each, to be of good bearing in such
office towards the king and his people without extortion or
wrong-doing,, and to render to the king 10 marks yearly more than
other chamberlains and receivers have done. By p.s.
· p 218 - June 8.1424, Westminster -
Commission of oyer and terminer to James de Audeley, knight, Edward
Stradlyng, knight, and William Rede,, and to two of them including
Rede, for all treasons and felonies in South Wales. Mandate to empanel
juries, is addressed to the sheriff of the county of Carmarthen only.
By C.
· p254 - Nov.8.1424, Westminster -
Grant, during pleasure, by advice of the council, to Edward Stradlyng,
king's knight of the office of steward and receiver of the lordships
of Cantreselly, Alsandreston and Penkethly, which are held of the earl
of Hereford, the said office of steward and receiver of the
king’s lordships having been previously held as one office, with
the fees of 40s. [a year]. By p.s.
· p424 - June 20.1427, Westminster -
Commission, by advice of the council, to James de Audeley, knight
Edward Stradlyng, knight, and William Rede, and to two of them
including Rede, to inquire by inquest of South Wales, into the
treasons done by Matthew ap Llewellyn Dduy, canon of Talley of the
Premonstratensian order, in Kermerdyn county and the parts of South
Wales, and to hear and determine the same according to the law and
customs of those parts. By p.s.
1429-1436
· p116 - April 29. 1431, Westminster -
Appointment of Richard Vernon, Edward Stradlyng, and John Skydmore,
knights, Thomas Mollesley and William Lee, and two or more of them,
including either Mollesley or Lee, to be the king's justices in the
parts of South Wales, so long as James de Audeley, knight, chief
justice in those parts, shall be in France on the king's service. But
he is not hereby to be removed from the office in any way or from the
wages and profits thereof. By p.s.
· p130 - Feb. 20. 1431, Westminster -
Commission of oyer and terminer to David Morys, Edward Stradlyng,
knight, and Edmund Morys, or to the first-named with either of the
others, for treasons and felonies done in the county of Cardygan in
the parts of South Wales.
· p194 - June 6. 1432, Westminster -
Protection for four years for the priory of St. John the Evangelist,
Kermerdyn, South Wales, which has been wasted by misrule, and
appointment of Humphrey, duke of Gloucester, Edward Stradelyng,
knight, Willam ap Thomas, knight, and Gruffin Don, esquire, to the
custody thereof. By p.s.
· p220 - July 31. 1432, Dogmersfield -
Commission to Edward Stradelyng, knight, and William ap Thomas,
knight, to enquire as to the malefactors who took at sea a ship called
‘le George’ of Sluys laden with wines and honey of certain
merchants of Flanders and Picardy, and brought her to the town of
Dynby and sold the ship there with part of the wines and honey, giving
the remainder to divers persons. The circumstances are to be
ascertained and persons refusing to make restitution are to find.
surety to appear in Chancery in the quinzaine of Michaelmas next.
· p356 - April 28.1434, Westminster -
Commission to James Audeley, knight, Edward Stradlyng, knight, William
ap Thomas, knight, Robert Grendour, knight, Thomas Arundell, knight,
John Herle, knight, John Polryden and John Hunte, sarjeant at arms, to
make inquisition touching a petition by Peter Preere, Richard Goulle,
Francis Sarratt, William Lorget and their fellows, burgesses and
merchants of the king's cities of Paris and Rouen, shewing that,
whereas they recently laded two vessels of Rouen at Leseluse with
goods worth 2,000 marks for the victualling of the said cities, these
vessels were taken off Brumalet in Caux by certain of the king's
lieges in two balingers of Wynchelse and Sandewyche and carried as if
belonging to enemies to the parts of Cornwall and Wales, where they
were disposed of. All goods whereof the petitioners can prove their
ownership by the merchants' marks or otherwise are to be restored, or
their value paid if they have been consumed, and any persons proving
contumacious are to be brought before the king in chancery. By C.
· p368 (starts 367) 1434 -
**********Nicholas Alderley and John Codryngton, and their heirs, of
the manor of Derham, co. Gloucester, and the advowson of Derham
church, also of 2 acres of land in Horsyngton and of the advowsons of
Horsyngton church and of the free chapel of Southcheryton, co.
Somerset, except one acre of land in the said manor, all held of the
king in chief; and also to grant to the same the reversion of one
third part of 6 carucates of land in Derham, one third part of the
said manor of Horsyngton, one third part of the manor of Kyngeston
Russell, co. Dorset, and the advowson of the free chapel of Kyngeston
Russell, also held in chief, which are now held in dower by John
Stradelyng, knight, and Joan his wife, of the inheritance of the said
Margaret and Isabel, after the death of the said Joan.
· p476 - July 18.1435, Westminster -
Commission to John, earl of Huntingdon, Edward Stradlyng, knight,
Geoffrey Louther, Richard Waller, Robert Whitgreve and Richard Alred,
and to two or more of them, to take at Berhamdoune, on 23 July next,
the muster of Robert de Wylughby, knight, Bertin Guterwesull (sic),
knight, Thomas Pygot, Thomas Longeford, Thomas Gryslay, Nicholas
Donnell, Henry Bertin, Robert Dutton, Thomas Stathom, Ralph Stathom,
Richard Pemberton, Richard Mellyng and Nicholas Preston and of the men
at arms and archers who are about to proceed to France in their
retinues.
1436-1441
· p183 - July 27. 1438, Dogmersfield -
Appointment, during pleasure, of Edward Stradelyng knight, to be
sheriff of Kermerdyn in South Wales, accounting at the exchequer of
Kermerdyn. By C.
· p538 April 20. Dogmersfield -
Commission to Edward Stradelyng, knight, Alexander Hody, William
Chount, John Priscote and the sheriff of Somerset to make inquisition
in the said county into whose hands have come certain goods and
merchandise captured from a ship called la Marie of Bilbawe, whereof
John Martyn was master, lately taken contrary to the form of letters
of safe-conduct, and touching their value, and to make restitution,
committing to prison such as refuse to do the same.
1441-6, Henry VI
· p 118 - Nov 10, 1442, Westminster
Pardon to Edward Stradlyng of Halseweye, co. Somerset, knight, for not
appearing before the justices of the bench to answer Thomas Bataill,
citizen and mercer of London, touching a plea of debt of 36l.12s
· p 247 - Jan 20, 1444, Westminster
Commission to Edward Stradelyng, knight, Alexander Hody, Robert Warre,
John Sydenham and Richard Clyvedon, setting forth that , whereas
Fernandus Dalvys of Vermia, Spain, master of a ship called Seint Anton
of Biskay, Spain, sailing with the ship and merchants, mariners and
merchandise therin with letters of safe-conduct, touched at the port
of Dalkey, Ireland, and sold their mechandise to merchants of Dublin
and caused to be delivered to them all thereof save 40 tuns of wine
and 300 quarters of salt, and afterwards John Colwell ina ship, wherof
Thomas Cradok of Bruggewater is owner, and William Cooke in a
'spinace' with divers the kings lieges attacked the said ship and took
the same with the said wine and salt to the port of Bruggewater,
disposing therof at will - they are to make inquisition in the county
of Somerset into whose hands the ship and cargo have come, and to
cause restitution therof to be made, committing to prison such as
refuse the same.
· p 287 - March 8, 1444, Westminster
A repeat of the last entry with minor variation in the wording
· p 477 - 1441-4 Commissions of the peace
Somerset - Edward Stradlyng, knight.
1446-1452
· p 28 - 4, Feb 5, 1449, Westminster
Licence, for 10 marks paid in the hanaper, for James Lutrell, esq, son
and heir of John Lutrell, knight, deceased, to grant to Edward
Stradelyng, knight, John Sydenham the younger and Richard , Popham the
castle and borough of Dunster, the manors of Mynhed, Carhampton and
Culveton and the hundred of Carhampton county Somerset, held in chief,
and for them to grant the same to John, archbishop of Canterbury,
Humphrey, duke of Buckingham, Walter Rodeney, knight, John Seymour,
knight, the said James Lutrell, Thomas Wake,esq, Richard Arthur, esq,
William Arthur, esq, and Alexander Hody and the heirs of the body of
James, with remainder after the decease of the said archbishop and
others to the heirs of the body of Richard Lutrell, with remainder
over to th right heirs of James.
· p 594 - Commissions of the Peace - 1447-51
bat...@hotmail.com (Brad Verity) wrote in message news:<8ed1b63.03041...@posting.google.com>...
Reedpcgen
>Dear Brad ~
>>I found the following information online tonight regarding Sir Edward
>Stradling and his wife, Joan.
The information is from
http://www.stradling.org.uk/docs/Var_roll.htm
which site has much information about the Stradlings.
Paul
PS You will note that this, too, is in Latin, not French.
Brad Verity
> >Dear Brad ~
> >>I found the following information online tonight regarding Sir Edward
> >Stradling and his wife, Joan.
> [snip]
>
> The information is from
>
> http://www.stradling.org.uk/docs/Var_roll.htm
>
> which site has much information about the Stradlings.
What a great site - I love the photo of the old coat of arms. The
information on the heads of the family and their wives is not very
detailed, but does seem fairly accurate.
I might e-mail the site owner and see if he is aware of R.A.
Griffiths' 1994 chapter on the Stradlings. It could help him fill in
some detail.
Thanks for the link, Paul, and the info, Doug.
Cheers, --------Brad
Brad Verity
> I found the following information online tonight regarding Sir Edward
> Stradling and his wife, Joan. [snip]
> I presume that "E S, Militi" below is intended for
> Edward Stradling, Knight, who is known to have had a wife, Joan
> ["Johanne"] and a son, Henry ["Henrico"]. If I interpret the record
> below correctly, it indicates that Joan (Beaufort) Stradling was
> living as late as 1451/2.
Thanks, Douglas. I don't know anything about historian T. Carte, so
I'm sorry I can't help you there.
Paul recently posted this from the index of IPMs:
p. 400, 20 Edw. IV [ca. 1480]. Num' 52. Joh'a Stradlyng.
Compton Hawey manr' - Dorset'.
Combehaweye maner' - } Somerset'.
Halsewey manr' - }[Somerset]
This may be the IPM for Jane Beaufort Stradling. The manors were in
the possession of her late husband Sir Edward Stradling of St.
Donat's, and there seems to be no other late-15th-century
Joan/Jane/Joanna Stradling who would have possession of them. If it
was Jane who died about 1480, it supports a birth year for her after
1401 - further evidence that Alice (Fitzalan), lady of Powis, was not
her mother. Sir Edward left overseas on a pilgrimage in his 60s and
died in 1453 aged about 64, so it's possible for his widow to have
survived until 1480, especially as she was probably over ten years
younger than him.
I don't believe the above IPM is published, but I can query the PRO to
see if they can confirm it was Jane Beaufort Stradling's.
Cheers, --------Brad
Douglas Richardson
The PRO Online catalogue lists the following two inquisitions:
C 139/148/13 Stradlyng, Edward, kt: Som, Dors 31 Hen VI [1451/2]
C 140/75/52 Stradlyng, Joan Dors, Som 20 Edw IV [1480/1]
If the latter party, Joan Stradlyng, is the widow of the first party
as you allege, then we should find Joan's assignment of dower in the
records about 1451/2. Have you found that record?
My own guess is that the Joan Stradlyng who died in 1480/1 was the
widow of Sir Edward Stradling's son and heir, Sir Henry Stradling, who
is thought to have died about 1476/7. Further research should reveal
if this is the case or not.
Thomas Carte's Gascon Rolls volumes appear to be somewhat rare.
However, I'm sure someone in our midsts has access to a copy and can
locate the marriage contract to Margaret of Kent and Amanieu d'Albret
in the first volume and the reference to Sir Edward Stradling, his
wife, Joan, and son, Henry, in the second volume. Have you tried the
Huntingdon Library for the Carte volumes?
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
bat...@hotmail.com (Brad Verity) wrote in message news:<8ed1b63.03041...@posting.google.com>...
Apsg...@aol.com
> If the latter party, Joan Stradlyng, is the widow of the first party as you
> allege, then we should find Joan's assignment of dower in the records about
> 1451/2. Have you found that record?
If all the lands Edward inherited had been entailed jointly on Edward and
Joan Beaufort, for their lives (under the influence of Cardinal Beaufort),
would she be assigned dower out of lands she already held? We don't know the
terms of her marriage contract, which contracts often pre-assign the lands to
be held in dower, but this IPM does not state that she held only 1/3 of those
manors (which would be a definite indication these manors were held in
dower). The brief abstract of the IPM indicates that Joan held the whole of
those manors, which for a female either means she was a sole heiress, or that
she held the lands in succession solely according to the terms of an
agreement made during the lifetime of her husband (given that his ancestors
held them previously). Nothing is mentioned about lands in Glamorgan or the
Marches of Wales, of the manors in Oxfordshire and Monmouthshire that had to
be sold to ransom the heir from the Bretton pirate.
Harry Stradling had married Elizabeth Herbert, sister of William Herbert,
Earl of Pembroke, who was born ca. 1423 (the same year Harry Stradling was
born).
The reason Brad and I theorized that this might be Joan's IPM was because it
was attached to the same manors that had been held by Harry's father Sir
Edward, but Hutchins said that Dame Joan was succeeded by Edward, who would
not be her son, but son of her grandson Thomas (son of Henry). But that
Edward would be a boy in 1480, not 40 - though if his father Thomas (who also
died in 1480) was the heir, he might have been aged 40 (born about 1440, or a
handful of years later, given that Harry was born in or before 1423).
I had posted, from Hutchins: << In 31 Hen. VI. Edward Stradling at his death
held this manor of the Abbot of Sherborne; also the manors of Halsway and
Comb Hawey, co. Somerset; Henry his son and heir, aet. 30 [citing "Esch."
(i.e., IPM)]. Dame Joan Stradling at her death, held this manor as before
and the manors of Combe Hawey and Halsway; Edward her son and heir, aet. 40."
>>
It will only be by checking these two original IPMs that we can verify what
Hutchins says, or discover if he made an error.
Thomas Stradling married Janet Mathew.
We do not claim with certitude that the 1480 IPM was for Joan Beaufort, but
it is something to look into, especially as Hutchins' statement does not
quite match the known information for this family.
Thanks for the comments,
Paul
Janet
Sir Thomas Johnes father Sir Henry Johnes m'd Elizabeth dau of Matthew
Herbert Esa of Swanses
Matthew Herbert father George Herbert Esq of Swansea. George Herbert father
was Richard Herbert of Ewias was knighted d 1570: brother of 1st William
Herbert Earl of Pembroke c 1551 (from whom descend the Earls of Pembroke and
Carnarvorn)
and father of Matthew Herbert Esq of Swanses and William Herbert Esq of
Cogan, who built the house at Cogan.
Richard Herbert, Esq of Ewias, m Margaret dau Sir Matthew Cradock by first
wife Alice Mansel.
Who were Richard Herbert parents?.
Janet
irish...@gmail.com
joe...@gmail.com
> Has anyone on different ancestral lines from Richard Fitzalan 1346-1397 had DNA test done? If one line is through Alice Fitzalan and another done through a sibling, wouldn't this show if Jane was Alice's daughter or has that already been proved and just want to know if Cardinal Beaufort was the father?
1cra...@gmail.com
> I know that Cardinal Beaufort's illegitimate daughter Jane and her
> husband Sir Edward Stradling are mentioned in his will.
>
> Does anyone know what the contemporary evidence is that makes Alice,
> daughter of the earl of Arundel and wife of John de Cherleton, lord of
> Powis, the mistress of the Cardinal and mother of his daughter?
>
> The only source I can find in an archive search is from a Feb. 1999
> post by John C. Parsons:
>
> "Antony Wagner's *English Genealogy* acknowledges that Cardinal
> Beaufort and
> Alice Fitzalan had a daughter who married into the Stradling family."
>
> Wagner's book was published in 1972, and I'll try to track it down but
> if anyone has access and can post Wagner's source for Alice Fitzalan
> being the mother, I'd appreciate it.
>
> Also, I vaguely remember mention of a modern biography of Cardinal
> Beaufort - does one exist? Anyone know the author or title?
>
> Cheers and Thanks, --------Brad
taf
> On Thursday, April 10, 2003 at 12:54:45 AM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:
> > I know that Cardinal Beaufort's illegitimate daughter Jane and her
> > husband Sir Edward Stradling are mentioned in his will.
> >
> > Does anyone know what the contemporary evidence is that makes Alice,
> > daughter of the earl of Arundel and wife of John de Cherleton, lord of
> > Powis, the mistress of the Cardinal and mother of his daughter?
> to see if the link is real. Any ideas?
taf
D. Spencer Hines
Alice FitzAlan, Baroness Cherleton
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Alice FitzAlan
Baroness Cherleton
Spouse(s): John Charleton, 4th Baron Cherleton
Issue: Jane Beaufort (allegedly by Cardinal Henry Beaufort
Noble family: FitzAlan (by birth), Cherleton (by marriage)
Father: Richard Fitzalan, 11th Earl of Arundel
Mother: Elizabeth de Bohun
Born: 1378 Arundel Castle, Sussex, England
Died: 1415 (aged 36-37)
Alice FitzAlan, Baroness Cherleton (1378-1415) was an English noblewoman,
being the daughter of Richard FitzAlan, 11th Earl of Arundel. She was the
wife of John Charleton, 4th Baron Cherleton.
This section does not cite any sources. Please help improve this section by
adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged
and removed. (April 2016) (Learn how and when to remove this template
message)
Lady Alice was born in Arundel Castle, Sussex in 1378, one of the seven
children of Richard Fitzalan, 11th Earl of Arundel by his first wife
Elizabeth de Bohun. She had two brothers, including Thomas Fitzalan, 12th
Earl of Arundel, and four sisters, Lady Eleanor FitzAlan, Lady Elizabeth
FitzAlan, Lady Joan FitzAlan, and Lady Margaret FitzAlan. Her paternal
grandparents were Richard Fitzalan, 10th Earl of Arundel and Eleanor of
Lancaster, and her maternal grandparents were William de Bohun, 1st Earl of
Northampton and Elizabeth de Badlesmere.[citation needed]
On 21 September 1397, her father was executed at Tower Hill, Cheapside for
high treason against King Richard II of England. [citation needed]
Marriage and love affair
Sometime before March 1392 Alice married John Cherleton, 4th Lord Cherleton
(25 April 1362 - 19 October 1401).[1] According to popular belief, following
her marriage she became the mistress of Cardinal Henry Beaufort, and bore
him an illegitimate daughter, Jane Beaufort. In Philip Yorke's The Royal
Tribes of Wales, he states that Cardinal Beaufort left an illegitimate
daughter by Alice, daughter of Fitzalan, Earl of Arundel.[2]
Genealogist Douglas Richardson also confirms the affair between Alice and
the Cardinal. Beaufort did indeed father an illegitimate daughter, Jane
Beaufort, possibly before Henry took holy orders on 7 April 1397, although
the idea of Jane's mother being Alice Fitzalan is a possible legend
disseminated by Tudor-era descendants of Jane Beaufort and her husband, Sir
Edward Stradling. There is no late-14th/early-15th century documentation to
support this affair at all, and surviving documentation discounts it.
[citation needed]
Jane and Sir Edward Stradling had three sons and a daughter, Katherine.
Alice's husband died on 19 October 1401, and she herself died before October
1415 around the age of 37. [citation needed]
References: 1 Charles Cawley, Medieval Lands, Earls of Arundel
2.Yorke, p. 88.
Sources: Philip Yorke, The Royal Tribes of Wales Google Books; accessed 30
August 2009.
Charles Cawley, Medieval Lands, Earls of Arundel.
This page was last modified on 21 April 2016, at 01:01.
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led, like sheep to the slaughter."
George Washington - Newburgh Address to Officers of the Continental Army, 15
March 1783, Headquarters, Newburgh, New York, United States of America
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