Otgiva of Luxemburg
Stewart Baldwin
but there is an alternate possibility about which I have been
wondering. The earliest source to state the parentage of Otgiva makes
her a daughter of an otherwise unidentified count Giselbert
["Balduinus Barbatus duxit filiam Gisleberti comitis Odgivam, ex qua
suscepit Balduinus Insulanum, ..." Genealogia comitum Flandriae
Bertiniana, MGH SS 9: 306]. The qualification of this Giselbert as a
count of Luxemburg evidently begins with Lambert of Saint-Omer (ca.
1120) ["Balduinus autem Barbatus Gandavi sepultus, accepit Otgivam
filiam Gisleberti comitis de Lizelenbors, ex qua suscepit Balduinum
Insulanum." MGH SS 9: 309]. The observation that Giselbert of
Luxemburg (d. 1059) does not make a chronologically believable father
for Otgiva, along with the additional data first appearing in
"Flandria Generosa" (ca. 1164) ["Iste Balduinus vir pulcher, formosus
corpore et stature grandis, uxorem accepit Ogivam, filiam Gisleberti
comitis de Lixelenborg, cuius fratres fuerunt hi: Adalbero Metensis
episcopus, Fredericus dux Lotharingie, Henricus dux Baioarie,
Gislebertus comes de Salinis, Theodericus de Luzelenburch" MGH SS 9:
318], has generally tilted opinion in favor of Frederick of Luxemburg,
known to be the father of the "fratres" in the above list.
In looking over Frederick's family, one thing that bothers me is that
those discussing Otgiva's parentage do not generally consider the
possibility that Frederick's BROTHER Giselbert (d. 1004) might have
been Otgiva's father. The only example of which I can think at the
moment which mentions (and rejects) this possibility is Siegfried
Hirsch's "Jahrbücher des Deutschen Reichs unter Heinrich II." [p. 538,
n. 8].
The main argument that would seem to make it difficult to make Otgiva
a daughter of this Giselbert is that he is called "iuvenis" by
Thietmar of Merseberg in his account of Giselbert's death [Thietmar,
Chron., vi, 6, MGH SS 3: 806; also by Adelbold, Vita Henrici Imp., c.
39, MGH SS 4: 693, which, however, is not an independent source]. The
term "iuvenis" is vague enough that declaring the relationship
impossible on those grounds alone seems hasty to me, for Giselbert
would only have to have been in his late 20's at death in order for
the possibility to be chronologically plausible (say, Giselbert b. ca.
975, and Otgiva b. ca. 995). Given that the sources provide a
contradiction which needs to be explained, and the fact that "of
Luxemburg" would have been pretty vague at Otgiva's time, there might
be an argument for accepting the early information regarding the name
of Otgiva's father and rejecting the later statement regarding the
identity of her siblings.
This leads to the obvious question(s): Is the word "iuvenis" alone
enough to exclude Giselbert as the father of Otgiva, and is there any
other reason why he should be excluded as a candidate for Otgiva's
father?
I should note that I am not (yet) claiming that this detail of the
Luxemburg genealogiccal tree necessarily needs to be redrawn, but I do
think that this is a point that needs to be covered in order to be
thorough.
Looking ahead (obviously prematurely) to what the consequences would
be of such a redrawing, the most notable (from the point of view of
the Henry Project on which I have been working) is that Henry II would
lose his Konradiner descent (but keep his Luxemburg descent via a
slightly different route). More conjecturally, Otgiva's uncommon name
might then come from her mother's family (an explanation that seems
unlikely if her mother was the Konradiner wife of Frederick).
Stewart Baldwin
Peter Stewart
a candidate to be father of Otgiva.
In classical usage this term could indicate a person aged between 20 and 40;
according to Isidore of Seville's etymologies the range of the fourth age of
man was from 28 to 50 ("Tertia adolescentia...porrigitur usque ad viginti
octo annos. Quarta iuventus...finiens in quinquagesima anno").
Giselbert was called "iuvenis" at the time of his death in battle at Pavia
on 18 May 1004, and he might have been born ca 960-975 for all that tells
us.
Otgiva was evidently married by ca 1012 but we don't know when she was born.
He name suggests a link to Eadgifu, the English princess who was the second
wife of King Charles the Simple. If Otgiva was actually descended from her,
this was most likely through one of the daughters of Eadgifu's son King
Louis IV, either Mathilde who was second wife of King Conrad the Peaceable
of Burgundy or more plausibly Gerberga who married Count Lambert I of
Louvain. Alternatively, the name might have been transmitted to the family
of Luxemburg by other means - for instance, possibly conferred by a
godparent, maybe Eadgifu's grandson Charles of Laon before his imprisonment.
Whether or not he was married (there is no record of this) and Otgiva's
father, Giselbert's title correctly may have been count of Vaudevrange
following a charter of Volcmar, abbot of Saint-Maximin, dated 996, "in
comitatu Waldelevinga, cui Gisilbertus comes preesse videtur". Nonetheless
he may have been more commonly known as count "of Luxemburg" from his
father's lordship.
It does seem odd, however, that Otgiva was not identified by Flemish writers
as niece of Empress Kunigunde.
Peter Stewart
"Stewart Baldwin" <sba...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:64heh2po9dkeh9ho2...@4ax.com...
Peter Stewart
"Peter Stewart" <p_m_s...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:yxMRg.35707$rP1...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> The description "iuvenis" would not alone rule Count Giselbert in or out
> as a candidate to be father of Otgiva.
>
> In classical usage this term could indicate a person aged between 20 and
> 40; according to Isidore of Seville's etymologies the range of the fourth
> age of man was from 28 to 50 ("Tertia adolescentia...porrigitur usque ad
> viginti octo annos. Quarta iuventus...finiens in quinquagesima anno").
>
> Giselbert was called "iuvenis" at the time of his death in battle at Pavia
> on 18 May 1004, and he might have been born ca 960-975 for all that tells
> us.
>
> Otgiva was evidently married by ca 1012 but we don't know when she was
> born. He name suggests a link to Eadgifu, the English princess who was the
> second wife of King Charles the Simple. If Otgiva was actually descended
> from her, this was most likely through one of the daughters of Eadgifu's
> son King Louis IV, either Mathilde who was second wife of King Conrad the
> Peaceable of Burgundy or more plausibly Gerberga who married Count Lambert
> I of Louvain.
On second thoughts, a descent from Queen Eadgifu is highly implausible
through Gerberga and Count Lambert I of Louvain, because if they had been
parents of Otgiva's mother then Count Henri III of Louvain and his wife
Gertrude of Flanders would have been second cousins twice removed, and so
too would Count Balduin II of Hainaut and his wife Ida of Louvain. There are
other occurrences of consanguinity and affinity that would also have come to
notice with such a lineage.
Mathilde and King Conrad of Burgundy could possibly have been grandparents
of Otgiva's mother through their daughter Gerberga (Guepa) by her first
husband Count Hermann I of Werl. In this case Otgiva's mother would
necessarily have been born ca 980 and Otgiva herself by ca 998. NB I have
not yet looked into this family beyond this bare chronology.
Peter Stewart
The...@aol.com
Dear Stewart, Peter, et al.,
In addition to the evidence you cite concerning the likely
descent of Otgiva of Luxembourg from Eadgifu, there was a citation
provided some time ago by Hans Vogels which provides further
indirect support for this relationship:
"Id. cec. dom. Hadewich comitissa, mater Chunigundis
imperatoricis. Agnes imperatrix ejus consanguinea." [1]
If Hedwig, wife of Siegfried, mother of the empress Cunigunda
and apparent grandmother of Otgiva (whether Otgiva was the daughter
of Frederick or Giselbert) was a descent of Eadgifu, she would have
been closely related to Agnes of Poitou (wife of the emperor Henry
III) as shown below [the conjectured descent of Hedwig shown
.......]. An interesting possibility also arises: that the name
Hedwig (already current in the Ottonian family of Gerberga) was
used/conflated with Eadgifu to leave us with the rendering
Odgiva/Otgiva, as suggested below.
Charles III 'the Simple' = Ædgiva/EADGIFU of England
I________________
I
1) Giselbert = Gerberga = 2) [939] Louis IV
D of Lorraine I of Saxony : fl. 921-954
k. 939 I :
____________I :......
I :
Alberada = Raynald :
______I C of Roucy :
I :
Ermentrude = 2) Otto-William HEDWIG [ "Odgiva" ? ]
I C of Mâcon = Siegfried of Luxembourg
________I ______I_________________
I I I I
Agnes = Guillaume V Giselbert Frederick CUNIGUNDA
I D of Aquitaine : : = Henry II
____I :...........:
I :
AGNES ODGIVA
'imperatrix' = Baldwin IV
= Henry III of Flanders
There is no other close Carolingian ancestry in common between
Agnes of Poitou and Cunigunda: a common descent from Gerberga of
Saxony is the sole apparent answer to the relationship between
these two.
The chronology would be a bit less tight if Hedwig, wife of
Siegfried of Luxembourg were a daughter (and not a granddaughter)
of Louis IV. I show there was a daughter of Louis IV not otherwise
accounted for [see ES I Tafel 6]. The absence of Carolingian or
Ottonian names amongst the progeny of Siegfried and Hedwig is
somewhat bothersome - only the name Henry reflects a connection.
At the same time, I note among the issue of Matilda and Conrad
'the Pacific', besides Matilda only the name Gerberga (Matilda's
mother) was given to a child of theirs.
There is the matter of consanguinity between Siegfried and a
daughter of Louis IV (3rd-3rd degree) or a granddaughter of Louis
IV (3rd-4th degree). This relationship would likely not have
escaped notice, and certainly deserves further discussion.
Cheers,
John
NOTES
[1] Hans Vogels, <Re: Siegfried of Luxembourg>, SGM, 24 April
2003, citing MGH (Monumenta Germaniae Historica) SS IV, p. 791.
Peter Stewart
<The...@aol.com> wrote in message news:564.66106e...@aol.com...
> Monday, 25 September, 2006
>
>
> Dear Stewart, Peter, et al.,
>
> In addition to the evidence you cite concerning the likely
> descent of Otgiva of Luxembourg from Eadgifu, there was a citation
> provided some time ago by Hans Vogels which provides further
> indirect support for this relationship:
>
> "Id. cec. dom. Hadewich comitissa, mater Chunigundis
> imperatoricis. Agnes imperatrix ejus consanguinea." [1]
Other descents have been postulated to explain this relationship. Hadwig may
have been a Saxon lady, perhaps from the Ottonian family. Depoin speculated
that she was daughter of Duke Giselbert of Lorrain & Gerberga of Saxony,
though this was refuted by Renn. Another suggestion is that she was daughter
of Count Everard II of Hamaland by his wife Amalrada, again with imperial
connections.
> If Hedwig, wife of Siegfried, mother of the empress Cunigunda
> and apparent grandmother of Otgiva (whether Otgiva was the daughter
> of Frederick or Giselbert) was a descent of Eadgifu, she would have
> been closely related to Agnes of Poitou (wife of the emperor Henry
> III) as shown below [the conjectured descent of Hedwig shown
> .......]. An interesting possibility also arises: that the name
> Hedwig (already current in the Ottonian family of Gerberga) was
> used/conflated with Eadgifu to leave us with the rendering
> Odgiva/Otgiva, as suggested below.
This is an unnecessary stretch - no woman named Hadwig occurs as "Odvisa" as
far as I'm aware, but rather as Advisa, and there is no linguistic warrant
for either the substitution of initial O for (H)A or the reversal of order
with the consonants g and w/v in these names. Queen Eadgifu was called
"Orgiva" (by Witger) and "Eadgiva" (by a continuator of Ado of Vienne), so
that O(t)giva represent no stretch from these variants.
Apart from other considerations - especially the extreme unlikelihood of
such a Carolingian princess going missing - the chronology could only work
if Hedwig was a daughter of King Louis IV: the one not otherwise accounted
for (presumably because she died as an infant or child) was baptised in the
summer of 948, and must have been born a few monthes earlier to allow for
her brother Louis to be born in December of the same year. Count Sigfrid
and Hedwig were having children by ca 960 - their son Heinric occurs in 964
and their daughter Liutgard was married ca 980. (I don't have time to check
the marriages of her descendants, but would be surprised if there isn't a
problem of consanginity with this proposal about Hedwig's origin further
down the lineage.)
Peter Stewart
Stewart Baldwin
<p_m_s...@msn.com> wrote:
>Mathilde and King Conrad of Burgundy could possibly have been grandparents
>of Otgiva's mother through their daughter Gerberga (Guepa) by her first
>husband Count Hermann I of Werl. In this case Otgiva's mother would
>necessarily have been born ca 980 and Otgiva herself by ca 998. NB I have
>not yet looked into this family beyond this bare chronology.
I have another candidate that I have been thinking of for some time:
Mathilde of Burgundy, daughter of king Conrad of Burgundy and Mathilde
of France. There are a number of reason that I have been looking at
her as a possible candidate for Otgiva's mother.
1. Conrad and Mathilde were married between 963 and 966, so a daughter
of this marriage makes a chronologically plausible candidate for
Otgiva's mother.
2. It would provide a simple explanation for both Otgiva's name and
the name of her sister Gisele.
3. Conrad's daughter Mathilde is known to have been married: an
addition to one of the manuscripts of Flodoards annals shows that
Mathilde, sister of Rudolf III of Burgundy, was mother of a certain
Bertha, the mother of Gerald of Geneva [MGH SS 3: 407]. The identity
of Mathilde's husband has apparently not yet been satisfactorily
explained.
4. Most importantly, there is the obviously false claim of "Genealogia
ex stirpe sancti Arnulfi descendentium Mettensis" [MGH SS 25: 384],
which would make Mathilde of Burgundy the wife of Baldwin III of
Flanders (in fact married to another Mathilde, daughter of Hermann of
Saxony). Could this chronologically impossible claim be a mangling of
an earlier statement that a daughter of Mathilde was married to
another Baldwin of Flanders (i.e., Baldwin IV). Curiously, this
source gives "Chunegunde" as the name of the wife of Baldwin IV. If
Mathilde were Otgiva's mother, then all of the confusion in this
source would have a plausible explanation.
I was originally planning to wait until I had investigated the
possibilities of this conjecture more thoroughly before mentioning it,
but since we are already in speculation mode in this thread, I guess
it is time to bring it up.
Stewart Baldwin
John P. Ravilious
A very interesting conjecture indeed.
There is another individual who would then show as a sibling (or
half-sibling * ) of Otgiva under your theory: Matilda's son Conrad, a
candidate for the German throne in 1024 (Conrad II of Swabia, husband
of Matilda's niece Gisela, was the individual ultimately elected):
'Iunioris Chuononis mater Mathilda de filia Chuonradi regis
Burgundiae nata fuit. ' [Gesta Chuonradi II imperatoris, Capitulum II]
There would then be (in no particular order), Conrad, Bertha, and
Otgiva.
* Of course, Matilda could have had more than one spouse (in
theory, anyway).....
Cheers,
John
Birds
Peter Stewart schreef:
[snip]
>
> Apart from other considerations - especially the extreme unlikelihood of
> such a Carolingian princess going missing - the chronology could only work
> if Hedwig was a daughter of King Louis IV: the one not otherwise accounted
> for (presumably because she died as an infant or child) was baptised in the
> summer of 948, and must have been born a few monthes earlier to allow for
> her brother Louis to be born in December of the same year. Count Sigfrid
> and Hedwig were having children by ca 960 - their son Heinric occurs in 964
> and their daughter Liutgard was married ca 980. (I don't have time to check
> the marriages of her descendants, but would be surprised if there isn't a
> problem of consanginity with this proposal about Hedwig's origin further
> down the lineage.)
>
> Peter Stewart
Eduard Hlawitschka, "War Graf Siegfried I. von Luxemburg ein Sohn
Herzog Giselberts van Lothringen? Ein Diskussionsbeitrag", in:
Forschungsbeiträge der Geisteswissenschaftlichen Klasse. Schriften der
Sudetendeutschen Akademie der Wisschaften und Künste, Band 23,
München 2002, wrote a nice demolition of an theory proposed by René
Klein in 1998. This theory was previously discussed here on the
newsgroup.
Hlawitschka mentions the fact that in 964 Siegfried, his wife Hadwig
and their son Heinrich are mentioned. Heinrich was at that time surely
no longer a small child. He could easily have reached the age of
maturity and therefore been born around 950.
So far Hlawitschka. Heinrich could have been fourteen but need not have
been. His minimal age at that time could have been at least seven
years. Seven being the minimal age when children could confirm actions
when their father, mother or gardian made deeds and gifts or made other
decisions important for them. Drs. T. Klaversma points out that this
fase started when the children were no longer "infans", so minimaly
seven years of age, the time when they came to the years of
distinction/discretion.
The Dutchman Klaversma - in a dicussion with the German Severin Corsten
- points to a charter of 1173 in which duke Godfried III of Brabant and
his sons Hendrik and Albert made a memorial donation for their wife and
mother. As it is known that Hendrik was born in 1265 he could have been
eight and his brother seven years at most. This and more can be read in
his paper "Wassenberg en de hertogen van Limburg in de twaalfde eeuw",
in: De Maasgouw jrg. CVII (1988), 41-47.
That puts the birth of Heinrich minimaly at 957. Counts Siegfrieds
older brother Friedrich got engaged in 951 and married 954 Beatrix
daughter of Hugh of Francia. Siegfried being the youngest brother
(having and older brother Giselbert) might have thus have married in
the period between 951 and 957.
Hans Vogels
Birds
The Dutchman Klaversma - in a dicussion with the German Severin Corsten
> - points to a charter of 1173 in which duke Godfried III of Brabant and
> his sons Hendrik and Albert made a memorial donation for their wife and
> eight and his brother seven years at most. This and more can be read in
> his paper "Wassenberg en de hertogen van Limburg in de twaalfde eeuw",
> in: De Maasgouw jrg. CVII (1988), 41-47.
Addition:
With a marriage for count Siegfried in the mid fifties, his son count
Giselbert (+ 1004) could be older then previously presumed.
As one certainly knows the name Konrad pops up in a younger Luxemburger
generation. Konrad (1059 - + 1088), son of Giselbert (1035 - 1057),
son of Friedrich + 1019, son of count Siegfried + 988.
Hans Vogels
Birds schreef:
Birds
Eduard Hlawitschka assumes that Hadwig, wife of count Siegfried is the
key to the Saxon possessions of the younger Luxemburgers, "einen
bezeichnenden Hinweis auf die Herkumft Hadewigs, von der bisher
überhaubt nichts bekannt ist".
See:
Eduard Hlawitschka, "War Graf Siegfried I. von Luxemburg ein Sohn
Herzog Giselberts van Lothringen? Ein Diskussionsbeitrag", in:
Forschungsbeiträge der Geisteswissenschaftlichen Klasse. Schriften der
Sudetendeutschen Akademie der Wisschaften und Künste, Band 23,
München 2002.
Several German researchers have tried to tie Hadwig to a Saxon dynasty
like for instance Northeim.
See:
http://www.genealogie-mittelalter.de/
luxemburger/hadwig_von_lothringen_graefin_993/hadwig_von_lothringen_graefin_von_luxemburg_+_993.html
I guess that a decision will remain open.
Hans Vogels
The...@aol.com schreef:
Peter Stewart
This looks more promising than a descent from one of her sisters. I don't
have information to hand on the descendants of Mathilde's daughter Berta by
Aymard of Geneva - have you checked these for connections to descendants of
Otgiva?
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
"Birds" <h.vo...@chello.nl> wrote in message
news:1159214561.3...@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Eduard Hlawitschka, "War Graf Siegfried I. von Luxemburg ein Sohn
> Herzog Giselberts van Lothringen? Ein Diskussionsbeitrag", in:
> Forschungsbeiträge der Geisteswissenschaftlichen Klasse. Schriften der
> Sudetendeutschen Akademie der Wisschaften und Künste, Band 23,
> München 2002, wrote a nice demolition of an theory proposed by René
> Klein in 1998. This theory was previously discussed here on the
> newsgroup.
>
> Hlawitschka mentions the fact that in 964 Siegfried, his wife Hadwig
> and their son Heinrich are mentioned. Heinrich was at that time surely
> no longer a small child. He could easily have reached the age of
> maturity and therefore been born around 950.
>
> So far Hlawitschka. Heinrich could have been fourteen but need not have
> been. His minimal age at that time could have been at least seven
> years. Seven being the minimal age when children could confirm actions
> when their father, mother or gardian made deeds and gifts or made other
> decisions important for them. Drs. T. Klaversma points out that this
> fase started when the children were no longer "infans", so minimaly
> seven years of age, the time when they came to the years of
> distinction/discretion.
This theory may have come to be applied practically later on, but in the
10th and 11th centuries it was not observed as a rule.
Babies occur gibing assent to charters of their parents and siblings -
assuming they were actually present and that their names were not just added
by a copyist after the fact, the document was held to their touch to signify
assent.
Presumably if the baby flinched and/or howled it was not taken as
registering an objection, because as you say the age of discretion had not
been reached.
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
<snip>
>> If Hedwig, wife of Siegfried, mother of the empress Cunigunda
>> and apparent grandmother of Otgiva (whether Otgiva was the daughter
>> of Frederick or Giselbert) was a descent of Eadgifu, she would have
>> been closely related to Agnes of Poitou (wife of the emperor Henry
>> III) as shown below [the conjectured descent of Hedwig shown
>> .......]. An interesting possibility also arises: that the name
>> Hedwig (already current in the Ottonian family of Gerberga) was
>> used/conflated with Eadgifu to leave us with the rendering
>> Odgiva/Otgiva, as suggested below.
>
> This is an unnecessary stretch - no woman named Hadwig occurs as "Odvisa"
> as far as I'm aware, but rather as Advisa, and there is no linguistic
> warrant for either the substitution of initial O for (H)A or the reversal
> of order with the consonants g and w/v in these names. Queen Eadgifu was
> called "Orgiva" (by Witger) and "Eadgiva" (by a continuator of Ado of
> Vienne), so that O(t)giva represent no stretch from these variants.
This should read: Queen Eadgifu was called "Otgiva" (by Witger)....
Peter Stewart
Birds
custom. As a historical en genealogical researcher he is quite well
informed so he can't be taken lightly.
Thus Hlawitschka sees in the Heinrich of 964 a person of age, not a
baby or todler.
But then again a marriage around 949/950 for Siegfried would seem quite
early with regards to the children born from this union and their
marriages.
Hans Vogels
Peter Stewart schreef:
Peter Stewart
> That would explain why Hlawitschka does not mention this later attested
> custom. As a historical en genealogical researcher he is quite well
> informed so he can't be taken lightly.
>
> Thus Hlawitschka sees in the Heinrich of 964 a person of age, not a
> baby or todler.
>
> But then again a marriage around 949/950 for Siegfried would seem quite
> early with regards to the children born from this union and their
> marriages.
I agree, Hans - the best point of reference for this generation may be the
marriage ca May/June 1000 of Kunigunde to Heinrich of Bavaria, soon to be
German king & later emperor, who was born in May 973. She is not likely to
have been still unmarried at that time unless she was somewhat younger than
her husband's 27 years. Say she was born ca 980, this makes it scarcely
plausible that she had a full sibling born more than about 20 years earlier.
The consequence would be that Heinric was only an infant or young child on
17 September 964 when he first occurs, and his brothers who do not appear at
the same time would presumably have been born afterwards. On the other hand
if Heinric was 14 in 964 his sister Kunigunde would apparently have been
born when he was ca 30 years old, and for all we know she may not have been
the youngest sibling. If the two churchmen amongst them became bishops at
the age of eligibility, Thierry of Metz would have been born by 965/6 and
Adalbero of Trier by 968. Of the sisters, Liutgard was married ca 980, Eva
(Aenza) was evidently married before 1000, and the unnamed wife of Count
Thietmar probably was too since her daughter became an abbess in 1019.
It looks to me as if Kunigunde was younger than all of them except perhaps
Irmentrud, who became an abbess, and they were all seemingly born between ca
960 and ca 980, give or take maybe 5 years at either end.
Peter Stewart
Roger LeBlanc
reconstruction would not remain satisfactory. As I understand it,
Otgiva's mother is the nameless wife of Frederick of Luxembourg, who is
known to be a daughter of Heribert of Kinziggau. Why might one not
hypothesize that the nameless wife may also have been an Otgiva? Is it
not true that the parentage of Heribert of Kinziggau has not yet been
established?
Another ramification of note- in the identification of Judith of
Flanders, one of the key factors in placing her as a daughter of Baldwin
IV's second marriage was the consanguinity issues which would have
arisen due to Otgiva and Gisele being sisters. How would the new
reconstructions affect this placement?
Very interesting discussion nonetheless.
Roger LeBlanc
Stewart Baldwin
I have found no clear link between any descendants of Bertha (what few
I have seen) and of Otgiva. There is evidently no evidence that
Bertha's husband was Aymard of Geneva, and the current consensus seems
to be that Bertha was married to Gerhard, brother of Pope Leo IX
(which would at least give her Lotharingian connections). The main
basis for this is Wibert's life of Leo IX, which states that Gerhard
married a "neptis" of king Rudolf III. [See, e.g., René Poupardin,
"Le royaume de Bourgogne (888-1038) - Étude sur les origines du
royaume d'Arles" (Paris, 1907), 390; Eduard Hlawitschka, Die Anfang
des Hauses Habsburg-Lothringen (Saarbrücken, 1969), 107]. Eduard
Hlawitschka, "Zur Herkunft und zu den Seitenverwandten des Gegen
königs Rudolf von Rheinfelden" [in Weinfurter & Kluger, eds., Die
Salier und das Reich (Band 1: Salier, Adel und Reichsverfassung,
1991), 175-220] has an attempt (pp. 210-5) to reconstruct the family
of Bertha's son Gerold of Geneva, but I see nothing there that could
be used to support a connection to Otgiva.
Stewart Baldwin
Stewart Baldwin
LeBlanc) wrote:
>Please bear with me on this one, but I am wondering why the current
>reconstruction would not remain satisfactory. As I understand it,
>Otgiva's mother is the nameless wife of Frederick of Luxembourg, who is
>known to be a daughter of Heribert of Kinziggau. Why might one not
>hypothesize that the nameless wife may also have been an Otgiva? Is it
>not true that the parentage of Heribert of Kinziggau has not yet been
>established?
The current reconstruction has never been entirely satisfactory,
because every early source giving the name of Otgiva's father gives
the name Giselbert. (No early source gives the name of Otgiva's
mother.) Most have noted that the most obvious Giselbert of Luxemburg
(Frederick's son, the one who died in 1059) can be ruled out as
Otgiva's father, and then made her a sister of Giselbert instead
(aided by the statement of "Flandria Generosa" 100 years or so later
which appears to name some of Otgiva's siblings). However, this
assumes that there is no other Giselbert who would make a good
candidate for Otgiva's father. If Frederick's brother Giselbert
cannot be ruled out as Otgiva's father, then that weakens Frederick's
case.
As for Heribert, I have found the attempts of Armin Wolf and Donald
Jackman to redraw his ancestry to be unconvincing, and I think that
the so-called "orthodox" view, i.e., that Heribert was the son of Udo
by his Vermandois marriage, is probably correct. In any case, Otgiva
is evidently an Anglo-Saxon name, and there is nothing about Heribert
or his wife to suggest an Anglo-Saxon descent, so I seriously doubt
that Frederick's wife was named Otgiva.
>Another ramification of note- in the identification of Judith of
>Flanders, one of the key factors in placing her as a daughter of Baldwin
>IV's second marriage was the consanguinity issues which would have
>arisen due to Otgiva and Gisele being sisters. How would the new
>reconstructions affect this placement?
It is true that placing Otigiva as a daughter of Frederick's brother
Giselbert would increase the distance of relationship between Otgiva
and Welf of Bavaria (Judith's second husband) by one generation, and
thus weaken the negative evidence that would make the relationship
between Otgiva and Judith doubtful. However, I don't think it would
affect Judith's case in a material way, for there is strong evidence
that she was closely related to Edward the Confessor, and Baldwin IV's
second wife, a first cousin of Edward, is the only wife of a count of
Flanders known to have had a close relationship to Edward.
Stewart Baldwin
Peter Stewart
My arithmetic gets worse by the day - this should read "Thierry of Metz
would have been born by 975/6 and Adalbero of Trier by 978".
Peter Stewart
Jwc...@aol.com
Edgiva / Otgiva, Queen of Charles III
of France was the niece of Count Baldwin II of Flanders wife Aethelthyrth,
who was the daughter of King Alfred and so 1st cousin of Count Arnulf I of
Flanders
Hedwig if Edgiva`s daughter was 2nd cousin to Count Baldwin III
Otgiva herself was 3rd cousin to Count Arnulf II and 3rd once removed to her
husband Count Baldwin IV.
Apparently, according to eu.webgenealogy Otto I `s
1st wife Edith, sister of Edgiva, Queen of France died without issue ? In the
past several genealogical tables and articles in Encyclopedias and history
books indicated that Liudolf, Otto I`s oldest son who rebelled againest him was
Empress Edith`s son. Additionally, Hugues, Duke of the Franks` wife Edhilda,
also a sister and daughter of King Edward the Elder is indicated to have died
without surviving children.
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings
Dixmont,
Maine USA
Peter Stewart
<Jwc...@aol.com> wrote in message news:3b8.966e57...@aol.com...
> Dear Stewart and others,
> Edgiva / Otgiva, Queen of Charles
> III
> of France was the niece of Count Baldwin II of Flanders wife
> Aethelthyrth,
> who was the daughter of King Alfred and so 1st cousin of Count Arnulf I of
> Flanders
> Hedwig if Edgiva`s daughter was 2nd cousin to Count Baldwin III
> Otgiva herself was 3rd cousin to Count Arnulf II and 3rd once removed to
> her
> husband Count Baldwin IV.
Elsewhere in this thread the proposal that Hedwig might have been the
daughter of Louis IV and therefore granddaughter of Queen Eadgifu is
discussed: if a possibility at all this is a very remote one indeed - but
there is no possibility that Hedwig could have been a daughter of Charless
III and Eadgfu, whose only child was born in 920/1. Hedwig's children, as
also discussed elsewhere in the thread, were born ca 960-ca980. Mysterious
as he may be in some respects, Hedwig's husband could have been
brother-in-law to King Louis IV, and nor for that matter would the name
Hedwig have occurred out of the blue in the Caroloingian family.
> Apparently, according to eu.webgenealogy Otto I `s
> 1st wife Edith, sister of Edgiva, Queen of France died without issue ?
> In the
> past several genealogical tables and articles in Encyclopedias and history
> books indicated that Liudolf, Otto I`s oldest son who rebelled againest
> him was
> Empress Edith`s son. Additionally, Hugues, Duke of the Franks` wife
> Edhilda,
> also a sister and daughter of King Edward the Elder is indicated to have
> died
> without surviving children.
Otto and Edith married in September 929 and were parents of at least two,
perhaps three, children: Liudolf as noted above and his sister Liutgard
(wife of Konrad the Red, duke of Lotharingia). There may also have been a
daughter named Hedwig who died on a 16 August according to the necrology of
Echternach ("Hatawich, filia regis Ottonis"). Winfrid Glocker suggested that
the king's name may be an error for "Heinrici", so that the notice refers to
Otto the Great's sister Hedwig who was the wife of Hugo Magnus, duke of the
Franks. However, this lady's death is recorded on 9 January in the
necrologies of Saint-German des Prés and Saint-Denis, and it is unlikely
that the wife of the Frankish duke would be noted only as daughter of a
foreign king - especially the wrong one - instead of being identified by her
own title and/or linked to her husband. An otherwise unknown daughter of
Otto is more plausible, perhaps one who died young. No such daughter is
mentioned in the life of his second wife Adelais of Burgundy, that is
comprehensive on her descendants, so that a child of his first marriage
would seem to be indicated.
Eadhild, the second wife of Duke Hugo Magnus, died childless about ten years
after their marriage.
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
>
> <Jwc...@aol.com> wrote in message news:3b8.966e57...@aol.com...
>> Dear Stewart and others,
>> Edgiva / Otgiva, Queen of Charles
>> III
>> of France was the niece of Count Baldwin II of Flanders wife
>> Aethelthyrth,
>> who was the daughter of King Alfred and so 1st cousin of Count Arnulf I
>> of
>> Flanders
>> Hedwig if Edgiva`s daughter was 2nd cousin to Count Baldwin III
>> Otgiva herself was 3rd cousin to Count Arnulf II and 3rd once removed to
>> her
>> husband Count Baldwin IV.
>
> Elsewhere in this thread the proposal that Hedwig might have been the
> daughter of Louis IV and therefore granddaughter of Queen Eadgifu is
> discussed: if a possibility at all this is a very remote one indeed - but
> there is no possibility that Hedwig could have been a daughter of Charless
> III and Eadgfu, whose only child was born in 920/1. Hedwig's children, as
> also discussed elsewhere in the thread, were born ca 960-ca980. Mysterious
> as he may be in some respects, Hedwig's husband could have been
> brother-in-law to King Louis IV, and nor for that matter would the name
> Hedwig have occurred out of the blue in the Caroloingian family.
Another lapse - this should read "Mysterious as he may be in some respects,
Hedwig's husband could not have been brother-in-law to King Louis IV".
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
I'm not sure about Hlawitschka (I will check these references when I can),
but Poupardin provides nothing definite and not much otherwise to establish
his argument. He simply states that the marriage of Bertha to Aimon, count
of the Genevois, was supposed by Guichenon and the authors of _L'art de
vérifier les dates_ only to attach Gerold to the family of his predecessors.
However, he fails to provide sufficient rationale for preferring to separate
Gerold from the family of his predecessor and attach him instead to the
counts of Egisheim, the family of Pope Leo IX.
The statement by Wibert probably does mean niece rather than kinswoman more
generally - but I can't see why this limits the search to Mathilde of
Burgundy's daughter Berta. We know that the name Gerberga and its diminutive
Guepa were used for a woman who appears to belong to the family of Egisheim
without knowing her exact parentage, the abbess at Neuss ca 1050. This could
well indicate a relationship to Gerberga aka Guepa of Burgundy who was
another sister of King Rudolf III - I mentioned her earlier in this thread.
If, for instance, a daughter of Gerberga by her second husband, Hermann II,
duke of Swabia, had been the wife of Gerhard of Egisheim, then the
relationship mentioned by Wibert would exist. The name Cunegonde/Kuniza
belonged in Duke Hermann's family, and a Kuniza married to a Count Gerhard
is recorded.
Assuming that Hlawitschka did give some particular reason/s for rejecting a
possible relationship through Gerberga/Guepa of Burgundy in favour of one
through her sister Mathilde and the latter's daughter Berta, could you tell
us what he says about this matter and the inheritance or otherwise of
comital rights in Geneva?
Peter Stewart
Stewart Baldwin
<p_m_s...@msn.com> wrote:
>"Stewart Baldwin" <sba...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
>news:b31jh2tislj9hp8cn...@4ax.com...
>> I have found no clear link between any descendants of Bertha (what few
>> I have seen) and of Otgiva. There is evidently no evidence that
>> Bertha's husband was Aymard of Geneva, and the current consensus seems
>> to be that Bertha was married to Gerhard, brother of Pope Leo IX
[snip]
This statement was carelessly worded on my part, making the case sound
stronger than what is justified (at least from what I have seen). I
should have worded it more cautiously, saying that Gerhard was the
most frequently suggested candidate for Bertha's husband.
>I'm not sure about Hlawitschka (I will check these references when I can),
>but Poupardin provides nothing definite and not much otherwise to establish
>his argument. He simply states that the marriage of Bertha to Aimon, count
>of the Genevois, was supposed by Guichenon and the authors of _L'art de
>vérifier les dates_ only to attach Gerold to the family of his predecessors.
>However, he fails to provide sufficient rationale for preferring to separate
>Gerold from the family of his predecessor and attach him instead to the
>counts of Egisheim, the family of Pope Leo IX.
[snip]
I agree. I have not yet seen enough to justify this conclusion to the
exclusion of other interpretations, but I also have not yet had access
to most of the literature on this particular topic to see what
additional arguments there might be.
[snip]
>Assuming that Hlawitschka did give some particular reason/s for rejecting a
>possible relationship through Gerberga/Guepa of Burgundy in favour of one
>through her sister Mathilde and the latter's daughter Berta, could you tell
>us what he says about this matter and the inheritance or otherwise of
>comital rights in Geneva?
He says nothing about it in the articles I have seen. His main topic
was the relatives of Rudolf von Rheinfelden, whose sister evidently
married Gerold (Hlawitschka's conclusion based on Gerold being called
a "sororinus" of Rudolf). Thus, he was interested in Gerold's
marriages (1st to a sister of Rudolf; 2nd to Teutberga, widow of Louis
of Faucigny), but does not discuss Gerold's father other than to cite
some literature (which I haven't seen).
Stewart Baldwin
Stewart Baldwin
>Eduard Hlawitschka, "War Graf Siegfried I. von Luxemburg ein Sohn
>Herzog Giselberts van Lothringen? Ein Diskussionsbeitrag", in:
>Forschungsbeiträge der Geisteswissenschaftlichen Klasse. Schriften der
>Sudetendeutschen Akademie der Wisschaften und Künste, Band 23,
>München 2002, wrote a nice demolition of an theory proposed by René
>Klein in 1998. This theory was previously discussed here on the
>newsgroup.
I was also unconvinced by Klein's arguments, but I have not yet seen
the above article by Hlawitschka. I would be especially interested in
knowing if Hlawitschka would still make Siegfried a son of Wigerich.
In particular, does he discuss the statement in the Life of Abbot John
of Gorze that bishop Adalbero I of Metz has several brothers "ex
matre" ("..., quod fratres ei [i.e., of bishop Adalbero] plures ex
matre erant, ..." Vita Iohannis Gorziensis, c. 110, MGH SS 4: 368)?
From this statement, I have a hard time believing that all of
Cunigunde's children were by Wigerich.
Stewart Baldwin
Birds
Kunigunde. The eldest son Adalbero became bishop op Metz in 929.
Therefore (Hlawitschka) he must have been born in the period 900-905
(most likely 905). In note 48 we see that K. Wichmann dates his birth
around 900, H. Renn ca. 904 and M. Parisse about 902-905.
Father Wigerich is last seen in 916. He is not present at court in 919
so the consensus is that he must have died between 916-919. This is not
quite necessairy as he might have been ill in 919 and thus detained to
visit the courtday (Hoftag). Therefore he could easily have died a few
years later in 920/921.
His widow Kunigunde could have remarried in 922 with the widower
Richwin of Verdun. Richwin had a near adult son Otto from his previous
marriage. In 923 they tried to gain possesion over the property of
Wigerich and Kunigunde which led to resistance of Adalbero and the
murder of Richwin.
All in all with the result that Siegfried as son of Wigerich and
Kunigunde could have been two to three years younger then previously
was assumed. No children therefore from Kunigundes second marriage. And
no third marriage for Kunigunde.
Adalbero as eldest son was taking care of the wellfare of his younger
brothers and sisters, of whom Siegfried must have been a baby child,
maybe born around 920. That would make Siegfried around 78 at his death
in 998, a not impossible age.
Hans Vogels
Stewart Baldwin schreef:
Jwc...@aol.com
Is the name Edith
transliterated in German asa Hedwig?
Peter Stewart
<Jwc...@aol.com> wrote in message news:464.7422e4...@aol.com...
> Dear Peter, Leo, Hans and others,
> Is the name Edith
> transliterated in German asa Hedwig?
No, definitely not. German contemporaries wrote the unfamiliar name of Otto
the Great's wife Queen Edith as Edgid, Edit, Etheid, etc, but the name
Hadwig was well known to them, for instance from Otto's paternal
grandmother, in distinctive forms such as Hathui, Hadui(di)s, etc.
Peter Stewart
Jwc...@aol.com
Thank You.
Roger LeBlanc
It occurs to me that a re-examintation of Otgiva's parentage may warrant
another look at the consanguinity concern between Matilda of Flanders
and William of Normandy that it seems has been largely dismissed. Is it
possible there was anything substantial to the relationship?
Roger LeBlanc