Angevine Line!
Rebeld...@aol.com
I am new to this list, and boy is a busy one! I am working on my husbands
family tree. I was wondering who all might be connected to the Angevine
Family. My husband decends from Louis (Angevine) D'Anjou, Born:1530/1550
Angiers, Anjou, (Duchy of), France. Died: 1628 During the Seige of La
Rochelle, France. Would love to share info with other family members. Louis
is my husbands 12th great grandfather.
Theresa
Richmond, VA
Janko Pavsic
realy interesting for us. About informations you expect, Could you be
more specific ?
Janko Pavsic
Montréal, Canada
In article <e.89aecd6...@aol.com>,
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Rebeld...@aol.com
I am glad that you are interested. Well here it goes. Sorry that it took so
long to get it back to you. I am no professional. This info I got from Clyde
Angevine's book on the Angevine Line. I hope that you enjoy!
Theresa Willson
Richmond, Virginia
12th Great Grandfather:
Louis (Angevine) D'ANJOU (b. 1530/1550 - Angiers, Anjou, France; d. 1628 -
During the Seige of La Rochelle, France)
Married: Unknown
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
11th Great Grandparents:
Francois ANGEVINE (b. 1560/1588 - La Rochelle, France; d. 1628 - During the
Seige of La Rochelle, France)
Married: Marie ? (b: abt. 1560; d. 1628 - During the Seige of La
Rochelle, France
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
10th Great Grandparents:
Henry ANGEVINE (b. 1588/1611 - La Rochelle, Charente, Maritime, France; d.
WFT Est. 1642 - 1702)
Married: 1632 - La Rochelle, France; Charlotte GUINERE (b. Abt. 1616 -
La Rochelle, Charente, Maritime, France; d. WFT Est. 1641/1706)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
9th Great Grandparents:
Louis Angevine (b. Abt 1633 - La Rochelle, Charente, Maritime, France; d.
Aft. 1728 -
New Rochelle, NY
Married: Abt. 1658 - La Rochelle, France; Marguerite CHALONS (b. Abt.
1635 - La Rochelle, Charente, Maritime, France; d. WFT Est. 1671/1734)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
8th Great Grandparents:
Zacharias ANGEVINE (b. 1664 - La Rochelle, Charente, Martime, France; d. 17
January 1739/1740 - New Rochelle, Westchester Co., New York)
Married: 5 March 1689/1690 - French Church, New York, New York; Marie
(Mary Ann) NAUDIN (b. 1676 - New York City; d. Aft. 10 October 1715 - New
Rochelle, Westchester Co., New York)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
7th Great Grandparents:
Zacharies ANGEVINE Jr. (b. 1704 - New Rochelle, New York; d. Abt. 1760 -
Stratfield, Connecticut)
Married: Abt. 1732; Johannah MALLET (b. 10 March 1709/1710 - Stratfield,
Fairfield, Connectcut; d. Aft. 1733)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
6th great Grandparents:
Anthony ANGEVINE (b. 1734 - New Rochelle, New York; d. 25 August 1828 -
Mendon, Monroe, New York)
Married: 23 December 1761 - Redding, Fairfield, Connecticut; Esther BURR
(b. 5 Feb. 1742/1743 - Redding, Fairfield, Connecticut; d. 6 April 1829 -
Mendon, Monroe, New York)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
5th Great Grandparents:
Philip ANGEVINE (b. 1765 - Fairfield, Connecticut; d. 1809 - Sharon,
Litchfield, Connecticut)
Married: Abt. 1791 - Dutchess, New York; Alice ELTON (b. 1772 ; d. 15
June 1839 - Washington, Litchfield, Connecticut)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
4th Great Grandparents:
Stephen ANGEVINE (b. 21 March 1791 - Dutchess, New York; d. 11 May 1861 -
Barre, Orleans, New York)
Married: Abt. 1815; Sophia TURNER (b. Abt. 1792; d, 11 December 1831 -
Barre, Orleans, New York)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
3rd Great Grandparents:
Alden H. ANGEVINE (b. Abt. 1816 - Ontario, New York; d. 1893/1903 - Newago
Co., Michigan)
Married: Aft. 1840 - Orleans, New York; Emeline WRIGHT(b. ?; d. 22 Feb.
1877 - Everett, Newago, New York)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
2nd Great Grandparents:
Eugene ANGEVINE (b. Abt 1845 - , , New York; d. Abt. 1889 - , , Michigan)
Married: no date; Mary GRAVILLE - no information
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
1st Great Grandparents:
Eugene Frank ANGEVINE (b. 27 August 1889 - Michigan; d. 4 December 1939 -
Richmond, Virginia)
Married: 24 Feb. 1909 - Richmond, Virginia; Pearl D. BARR (b. 26 May 1889
- unknown location; d. 6 March 1964 - Richmond, Virginia)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
Grandparents:
Lester Barr ANGEVINE (b. 24 March 1912 - Richmond, Virginia; d. 18 January
1977 - Richmond, Virginia
Married: Unknown date and location; Evelyn Marie SLONAKER (b. 17
September 1916 - Martinsburg, West Virginia; (Living)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
Parents:
Norma Lee ANGEVINE (b. 22 March 1939 - Richmond, Virginia; (Living)
Married: 2 August 1959 - Richmond, Virginia; James Cary WILLSON (b. 17
September 1936 - Hartford, Connecticut; (Living)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
Us:
James Michael WILLSON (b. 28 November 1959 - Richmond, Virginia; (Living)
Married: 14 Feb. 1986; Theresa Elaine TONEY b. 10 August 1960; Living
D. Spencer Hines
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing." -- Attributed to Edmund Burke [1729-1797]
"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one
by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." -- Edmund
Burke -- Thoughts on the Cause of the Present Discontents [April 23,
1770]
"You could not stand five minutes with that man [Burke] beneath a shed
while it rained, but you must be convinced you had been standing with
the greatest man you had ever seen." Samuel Johnson [1709-1784],
_Johnsonian Miscellanies [1897], edited by G.B. Hill, vol. 1, p.290
"On résiste à l'invasion des armées; on ne résiste pas à l'invasion des
idées."
Victor Hugo
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
Vires et Honor
<Rebeld...@aol.com> wrote in message
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D. Spencer Hines
Mr. Hines,
I will let you be the one to tell that to my mother-in-law, since the
adjective
"ANGEVINE" is her surname.
--
Theresa Willson
Omega
by the marriage, after the marriage of Mathilde (d.1167) widow of Henry V
and Gottfried of Anjou (Plantagenet), and his son Henry II of England and
Eleonore of Aquitaine (d. 1204). It did become part of the name and later a
"surname" simply because people used to talk about the Angevines.
However, don't take my word for it, I am not a Historian.
--
Dr. George Tsambourakis
Omega Thoroughbreds
Tooborac, Victoria, Australia
e-Mail: om...@thoroughbreds.com.au
Web-Site: http://www.thoroughbreds.com.au
<Rebeld...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:29.106d64a...@aol.com...
D. Spencer Hines
Henry II did not have the surname "Angevine" ---- from Anjou.
It is a grave mistake to hold that the Medieval Angevine line of English
Monarchs had the surname "Angevine". They did not.
Nor did they have the surname "Plantagenet."
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing." -- Attributed to Edmund Burke [1729-1797]
"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one
by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." -- Edmund
Burke -- Thoughts on the Cause of the Present Discontents [April 23,
1770]
"You could not stand five minutes with that man [Burke] beneath a shed
while it rained, but you must be convinced you had been standing with
the greatest man you had ever seen." Samuel Johnson [1709-1784],
_Johnsonian Miscellanies [1897], edited by G.B. Hill, vol. 1, p.290
"On résiste à l'invasion des armées; on ne résiste pas à l'invasion des
idées."
Victor Hugo
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
Vires et Honor
"Omega" <om...@thoroughbreds.com.au> wrote in message
news:avgi6.2$w3....@vic.nntp.telstra.net...
| Angevine was a new "province" (I don't know the exact name) that was
created
| by the marriage, after the marriage of Mathilde (d.1167) widow of
Henry V
| and Gottfried of Anjou (Plantagenet), and his son Henry II of England
and
| Eleonore of Aquitaine (d. 1204). It did become part of the name and
later a
| "surname" simply because people used to talk about the Angevines.
|
| However, don't take my word for it, I am not a Historian.
|
| --
| Dr. George Tsambourakis
| Omega Thoroughbreds
| Tooborac, Victoria, Australia
Omega
"by-name) for a King , that finished (Plantagenet) as a collective name for
a group of Kings "The Kingdom of the Plantagenets".
Angevine on the other hand, was not a nickname and it was not a surname, but
it did become a surname later and it exists as a surname. History books
talk about the "Angevins" the same way they talk about "The Planategets".
If the Angevins of today have anything to do with the Angevins of 900 years
ago, that's another story.
Dr. George Tsambourakis
Omega Thoroughbreds
Tooborac, Victoria, Australia
e-Mail: om...@thoroughbreds.com.au
Web-Site: http://www.thoroughbreds.com.au
"D. Spencer Hines" <D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu> wrote in message
news:3a897...@binarykiller.newsfeeds.com...
Rebeld...@aol.com
<<<If the Angevins of today have anything to do with the Angevins of 900 years
ago, that's another story.>>>>
Why do you say this?
Theresa
Rebeld...@aol.com
his family with my input. And maybe, see if someone out they could help me
with going further back with this line. I have been told by my mother-in-law
that this line does go back to royalty. I just want to have it down on paper
for her. Like I said before, I'm not a professional. I'm just a high school
grad. And for one that has no training in this field, I think that I have
done very well.
Theresa
Dave Hinz
: You know something? I was just trying to find more family for my husband and
: Theresa
Hi, Theresa. From the quotes I've seen, everyone here has tried to
help except for one of our resident crackpots. Please, don't take is
criticisms seriously; he's not worth it.
Dave Hinz
D. Spencer Hines
2001 does not in any way prove that she is descended from the Angevin
Kings of England ---- or some presumed "Angevine Line."
2. The Angevin Kings of England are Henry II, Richard I and John.
Their surname is not _Angevin_ or _Angevine_. They do not have a
surname.
3. Angevin simply means "from Anjou." This is the geographical area
around Angers, in Modern France.
4. So, someone whose mother-in-law has the surname _Angevine_ in 2001,
may indeed have a mother-in-law whose ancestors were "French" and who
came from Anjou. Perhaps she can trace that, perhaps not.
5. By analogy, people whose surname is _Berry_ sometimes turn out to
have ancestors who came from the French province of _Berri_.
6. None of the above proves that these people have Royal Ancestors. A
great deal of genealogical and historical proof, of an entirely
different order, is required to prove that.
Exitus Acta Probat.
Fortem Posce Animum.
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing." -- Attributed to Edmund Burke [1729-1797]
"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one
by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." -- Edmund
Burke -- Thoughts on the Cause of the Present Discontents [April 23,
1770]
"You could not stand five minutes with that man [Burke] beneath a shed
while it rained, but you must be convinced you had been standing with
the greatest man you had ever seen." Samuel Johnson [1709-1784],
_Johnsonian Miscellanies [1897], edited by G.B. Hill, vol. 1, p.290
"On résiste à l'invasion des armées; on ne résiste pas à l'invasion des
idées."
Victor Hugo
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
Vires et Honor
Robert W Fay
Eleanor of Aquitaine. It is not a province and merely refers to the collection of
realms that were brought under one rule by this royal couple, and includes
much of modern day France, England and Ireland.
Henry came to rule Anjou by the right of his father, Geoffrey of Anjou, he
ruled England and Normandy and adjacent areas by right of his mother
Matilda, the granddaughter of William the Conqueror, and he ruled with his
wife Eleanor, Aquitaine by right of her father, William X Duke of Aquitaine. In
addition he ruled Ireland by a possibly fraudulent title granted by the Pope
and reinforced militarily.
A reasonably available one volume reference for these turbulent times,
understanding that it has the inadequacies of a one volume work, is "The
Plantagenet Chronicles" by Elizabeth Hallam, Weidenfeld & Nicholson, New
York, 1986.
I am doubtful that the term Angevin was used during the rein of Henry II, and
seems to me to be a term coined later for the convenience of historians to
refer to this powerful, historically significant but short lived collection or
realms.
The term Angevin seems to derive from the province that Henry ruled, Anjou.
Thus he would be Ajouvian or, more modernly Angevin
Hines is correct in describing Angevin as an adjective when used in the
phrase Angevin Empire as it modifies the noun.
If there is any connection between the name of this empire and a surname it
is unknown to me.
Bob Fay
Date forwarded: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 20:37:05 -0800
Date sent: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 07:06:47 +1100
From: "Omega" <om...@thoroughbreds.com.au>
Organization: Customer of Telstra Big Pond Direct
Subject: Re: Angevine Line!
To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
Forwarded by: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
Omega
You must slowly go back some 750 years and try to connect with the "Anjou's"
or the 'Anger's".
According to my notes, there are some Angevines in Hungary and
Naples(Italy).
You may need some references:
1. J.E.A. Jolliffe. "Angevin Kingship". London, New York 1963.
2. Sir F.M. Powicke. "The loss of Normandy 1189-1204. Studies in the history
of the Angevin Empire". Manchester 1961.
The above books will help you for the first couple of hundred years.
regards
Dr. George Tsambourakis
Omega Thoroughbreds
Tooborac, Victoria, Australia
e-Mail: om...@thoroughbreds.com.au
Web-Site: http://www.thoroughbreds.com.au
<Rebeld...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:9e.10124e1...@aol.com...
D. Spencer Hines
Well, sort of.
If you're serious about Genealogy ---- you start from your end, as the
alleged descendant ---- and work backwards in time, one generation at a
time [yes, it's darned hard work] ---- through the GARD to the
Royals ---- if you can.
You don't just pick an "Angevin" and then try to hook up with him from a
distance of 600-800 years.
By the same token, you don't just pick a person with the surname
"Angevine" today ---- and assume that they must be descended from an
Angevin Monarch. [N.B. They may simply be descended from Angevins,
i.e., French folks from Anjou ---- simple peasants perhaps.]
Yet, that is what many tyros try to do.
Bonkers.
In Modern France, Anjou is basically the Main-et-Loire Department,
within the Pays de la Loire Region. The capital, not surprisingly, is
Angers. The capital of the Region is Nantes.
Exitus Acta Probat.
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing." -- Attributed to Edmund Burke [1729-1797]
"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one
by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." -- Edmund
Burke -- Thoughts on the Cause of the Present Discontents [April 23,
1770]
"You could not stand five minutes with that man [Burke] beneath a shed
while it rained, but you must be convinced you had been standing with
the greatest man you had ever seen." Samuel Johnson [1709-1784],
_Johnsonian Miscellanies [1897], edited by G.B. Hill, vol. 1, p.290
"On résiste à l'invasion des armées; on ne résiste pas à l'invasion des
idées."
Victor Hugo
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
Vires et Honor
"Omega" <om...@thoroughbreds.com.au> wrote in message
news:ZiHi6.21$ka....@vic.nntp.telstra.net...
Omega
I wrote "province" because I couldn't think of the correct word.
However, the word "Empire" indicates something bigger than just a couple of
realms joined together, you imply.
other wise I agree 100%.
Dr. George Tsambourakis
Omega Thoroughbreds
Tooborac, Victoria, Australia
e-Mail: om...@thoroughbreds.com.au
Web-Site: http://www.thoroughbreds.com.au
"Robert W Fay" <madg...@clsurf.com> wrote in message
news:3A8AE75E.12048.928B46@localhost...
Omega
work backwards in time" and that should always be the case.
However, if the lady seriously thinks that the family goes back 900 years
(and let's face it, everything is possible), then, learning a bit of
history will not harm anyone.
Like a road race, you start from the start, but it helps if you know where
the finishing line is.
Dr. George Tsambourakis
Omega Thoroughbreds
Tooborac, Victoria, Australia
e-Mail: om...@thoroughbreds.com.au
Web-Site: http://www.thoroughbreds.com.au
"D. Spencer Hines" <D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu> wrote in message
news:3a8b2...@binarykiller.newsfeeds.com...
Omega
their family tree.
It should be a very good start.
http://www.genealogy.com/cgi-bin/wizard_search.cgi
--
Dr. George Tsambourakis
Omega Thoroughbreds
Tooborac, Victoria, Australia
e-Mail: om...@thoroughbreds.com.au
Web-Site: http://www.thoroughbreds.com.au
"Omega" <om...@thoroughbreds.com.au> wrote in message
news:0ZHi6.25$ka....@vic.nntp.telstra.net...
Roger LeBlanc
very common, self-explanatory French surname. Could Angevine have derived from it?
Roger
Omega
I am sure they will be very pleased.
--
Dr. George Tsambourakis
Omega Thoroughbreds
Tooborac, Victoria, Australia
e-Mail: om...@thoroughbreds.com.au
Web-Site: http://www.thoroughbreds.com.au
"Roger LeBlanc" <lebl...@mb.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3A8B7210...@mb.sympatico.ca...
Rebeld...@aol.com
Your guess is as good as mine. Maybe Mr. Hines can answer that for us, since
he has an answer for everything else.
Theresa
D. Spencer Hines
You don't like my answers?
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing." -- Attributed to Edmund Burke [1729-1797]
"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one
by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." -- Edmund
Burke -- Thoughts on the Cause of the Present Discontents [April 23,
1770]
"You could not stand five minutes with that man [Burke] beneath a shed
while it rained, but you must be convinced you had been standing with
the greatest man you had ever seen." Samuel Johnson [1709-1784],
_Johnsonian Miscellanies [1897], edited by G.B. Hill, vol. 1, p.290
"On résiste à l'invasion des armées; on ne résiste pas à l'invasion des
idées."
Victor Hugo
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
Vires et Honor
<Rebeld...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:f3.7844d9...@aol.com...
Rebeld...@aol.com
I want to Thank You! I know that alot of you have been trying to help. And I
Thank Everyone for your help!
Theresa
Stewart, Peter
> From: Omega [mailto:om...@thoroughbreds.com.au]
> Sent: Thursday, 15 February 2001 13:36
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: Angevine Line!
>
>
> It is simply very difficult to prove.
> You must slowly go back some 750 years and try to connect
> with the "Anjou's" or the 'Anger's".
>
> According to my notes, there are some Angevines in Hungary and
> Naples(Italy).
>
> You may need some references:
> 1. J.E.A. Jolliffe. "Angevin Kingship". London, New York 1963.
>
> 2. Sir F.M. Powicke. "The loss of Normandy 1189-1204. Studies
> in the history
> of the Angevin Empire". Manchester 1961.
>
> The above books will help you for the first couple of hundred years.
>
> regards
>
>
> Omega Thoroughbreds
> Tooborac, Victoria, Australia
> e-Mail: om...@thoroughbreds.com.au
> Web-Site: http://www.thoroughbreds.com.au
> news:9e.10124e1...@aol.com...
Is Dr Tsambourakis aware (there's a first time for everything....) that the
"Angevines" in Hungary and Naples are not of the same family as the rulers
of the Angevin empire that Powicke wrote (and the doctor read....) about?
On the subject of sources, it is reasonable to assume that even Dr
Tsambourakis was not born with his homespun theories -- and any knowledge
that may underpin these -- fully intact. Given that there must be at least
an inadequate source for any opinion on the subject of medieval history or
genealogy, why is it not worthwhile to let others know what this may be and
track it down if they can or will? The inaccessibility of a secondary source
in the field of our common interest does not affect its value -- and in any
case the judgement applied in making use of information or opinion from
others can be better assessed if we know just who these others are, and if
we can see some evidence of comprehension in reading their work.
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
Robert W Fay
If I implied that it was just a couple of realms, then I miscommunicated. It
includes a large number of realms, and the precise number depends on
exactly the year in question as there was more or less continuous military
conflict and changing borders during this period of time.
There is a illustrative map of the Angevin Empire at
http://www.ukans.edu/kansas/medieval/graphics/maps/1180.gif
The Angevin Empire is not of greatly dissimilar size compared to
Charlemagne's Holy Roman Empire, and it encompasses a wide range of
cultures and dissimilar political systems, so it would be difficult to describe it
as a single consistent realm.
And certainly, the defining idea behind it was to build and maintain an
empire, and that is a concept which drove Henry and Eleanor and their
descendants for many years.
Bob Fay
Date forwarded: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 03:37:11 -0800
Date sent: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 14:13:14 +1100
Omega
"two"
I really meant "a few" realms".
But you addressed that.
Dr. George Tsambourakis
Omega Thoroughbreds
Tooborac, Victoria, Australia
e-Mail: om...@thoroughbreds.com.au
Web-Site: http://www.thoroughbreds.com.au
"Robert W Fay" <madg...@clsurf.com> wrote in message
news:3A8C39D7.21270.1023FD6@localhost...
GRHa...@cs.com
I noticed that the map you supplied the URL for shows Scotland as
part of the Angevin realm. Do you think that is correct? I didn't think
that happened until after Edward I, later than 1180.
Gordon Reid Hale
Stewart, Peter
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
------_=_NextPart_001_01C097CE.0450A4E8
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robert W Fay [mailto:madg...@clsurf.com]
> Sent: Friday, 16 February 2001 12:20
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Angevin Empire
>
>
> Hi George,
>
> If I implied that it was just a couple of realms, then I
> miscommunicated. It includes a large number of realms,
> and the precise number depends on exactly the year in
> question as there was more or less continuous military
> conflict and changing borders during this period of time.
>
> There is a illustrative map of the Angevin Empire at
> http://www.ukans.edu/kansas/medieval/graphics/maps/1180.gif
>
> The Angevin Empire is not of greatly dissimilar size compared to
> Charlemagne's Holy Roman Empire, and it encompasses a wide range of
> cultures and dissimilar political systems, so it would be difficult to
> describe it as a single consistent realm.
>
> And certainly, the defining idea behind it was to build and
> maintain an empire, and that is a concept which drove Henry
> and Eleanor and their descendants for many years.
This may be a little confusing to some readers -- strictly speaking there
was never an "Angevin Empire" that could be compared to the Roman empires of
the medieval period politically, and it didn't contain several "realms"
insofar as that word means kingdoms in a legal sense.
It was rather an aggregation of territories, ill-assorted to a degree, which
were held either as independent possessions or by feudal tenure (sometimes
mightily & sometimes feebly disputed) from the French kings.
I think Eleanor was far too sensible a woman to preen herself as an empress,
in any but a rhetorical context at least, although Katherine Hepburn played
her as a bit of a theatrical ninny in "The Lion in Winter". (I seem to
remember an outrageous line like "It's the end of the twelft
Stewart, Peter
format mismatch last time.
remember an outrageous line like "It's the end of the twelfth century and
we're still barbarians".)
Peter Stewart
CASH...@aol.com
In a message dated 2/15/2001 10:19:56 PM, Peter....@crsrehab.gov.au
writes:
<< I think Eleanor was far too sensible a woman to preen herself as an
empress,
in any but a rhetorical context at least, although Katherine Hepburn played
her as a bit of a theatrical ninny in "The Lion in Winter". (I seem to
remember an outrageous line like "It's the end of the twelfth century and
we're still barbarians".) >>
The play and movie are, of course just that--theater. The dialogue is witty
though of course completely anachronistic. But since you brought up some
good lines from that movie, here is my personal favorite:
Eleanor/Hepburn: "In a world where carpenters are resurrected, anything is
possible."
I will resist the temptation to twist that into something appropriate for
this list.
CMK
Serban Marin
1308-1342 - Charles I Robert
1342-1382 - Louis I the Great
1382-1385 - Mary (first time)
1385-1386 - Charles II
1386-1387 - Mary (second time)
1387-1395 - Mary and Sigismund of Luxemburg
etc.
The Angevines in the Naples:
1282-1285 - Charles I
1285-1309 - Charles II "the Lame"
1309-1343 - Robert "the Wise"
1343-1381 - Johanna I
etc.
The Angevines in Sicily:
1265-1282 - Charles I
The Angevines in Poland:
1370-1382 - Louis I
1382-1386 - Hedwiga
1386-1399 - Hedwiga and Vladislas II "Jagiello"
etc.
Addictions? Corrections?
Serban Marin,
Bucharest, Romania,
sma...@dnt.ro
> According to my notes, there are some Angevines in Hungary and
> Naples(Italy).
>
> You may need some references:
> 1. J.E.A. Jolliffe. "Angevin Kingship". London, New York 1963.
>
> 2. Sir F.M. Powicke. "The loss of Normandy 1189-1204. Studies in the
history
> of the Angevin Empire". Manchester 1961.
>
[snip]
>
> Dr. George Tsambourakis
> Omega Thoroughbreds
> Tooborac, Victoria, Australia
> e-Mail: om...@thoroughbreds.com.au
> Web-Site: http://www.thoroughbreds.com.au
> <Rebeld...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:9e.10124e1...@aol.com...
Willette Smith
----- Original Message -----
From: "Omega" <om...@thoroughbreds.com.au>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 6:26 PM
Subject: Re: Angevin Empire
> I am sorry, is partly my fault too, I keep forgetting that "couple" means
> "two"
> I really meant "a few" realms".
> But you addressed that.
>
> Dr. George Tsambourakis
> Omega Thoroughbreds
> Tooborac, Victoria, Australia
> e-Mail: om...@thoroughbreds.com.au
> Web-Site: http://www.thoroughbreds.com.au
> "Robert W Fay" <madg...@clsurf.com> wrote in message
> news:3A8C39D7.21270.1023FD6@localhost...
> > Hi George,
> >
> > If I implied that it was just a couple of realms, then I
miscommunicated.
> It
> > includes a large number of realms, and the precise number depends on
> > exactly the year in question as there was more or less continuous
military
> > conflict and changing borders during this period of time.
> >
> > There is a illustrative map of the Angevin Empire at
> > http://www.ukans.edu/kansas/medieval/graphics/maps/1180.gif
> >
> > The Angevin Empire is not of greatly dissimilar size compared to
> > Charlemagne's Holy Roman Empire, and it encompasses a wide range of
> > cultures and dissimilar political systems, so it would be difficult to
> describe it
> > as a single consistent realm.
> >
> > And certainly, the defining idea behind it was to build and maintain an
> > empire, and that is a concept which drove Henry and Eleanor and their
> > descendants for many years.
> >
> > Bob Fay
> >
> > Date forwarded: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 03:37:11 -0800
> > Date sent: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 14:13:14 +1100
Omega
When I mentioned Hungary and Naples, because according to
my records, there are Angevine's living there today.
Dr. George Tsambourakis
Omega Thoroughbreds
Tooborac, Victoria, Australia
e-Mail: om...@thoroughbreds.com.au
Web-Site: http://www.thoroughbreds.com.au
"Serban Marin" <sma...@dnt.ro> wrote in message
news:004801c09773$4af24b00$8d7de7c1@v0t8w0...
James C. Woodard
<Rebeld...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:f3.7844d9...@aol.com...
to which you are replying that folks may see your meaning clearly.
BTW, Spencer was not being rude, curt, informative, but not rude.
When Spencer is being rude, you can always tell. You can smell the
burning hair from your eyebrows.
--
James C. Woodard
"Too many laws make scofflaws of all"
http://www.aracnet.com/~gwyddon/
gwy...@aracnet.com
Robert W Fay
There are a number of very nice maps online for the period of time but this is
the only one I could find when I posted.
To answer your question refer to "The Plantagenet Chronicles" Elizabeth
Hallam, Weidenfield & Nicholson, New York 1986, page 93 and in the
discussion of Henry II they state "During his reign Henry made further gains
on the peripheries of his lands. In 1157, he compelled the Scottish king to
pay him homage, Henry retaining the disputed Northumbrian lands. In the
1150's and 1160's he turned the Welsh into valuable allies. In 1171 he
invaded Ireland and by 1175 he had compelled all the native kings to do
homage to him."
Doubtless, there are many more detailed accounts of these activities, but
this seemed clear and concise.
Bob Fay
Date forwarded: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 19:18:49 -0800
From: GRHa...@cs.com
Date sent: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 22:18:42 EST
Subject: Re: Angevin Empire
To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
Forwarded by: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
Hi Bob,
A Tsar Is Born
<GRHa...@cs.com> wrote in message news:42.10c53b6...@cs.com...
William the Lion, King of Scots, was imprisoned by Richard I until he agreed
to do homage for his kingdom. (c. 1196?) Thereafter (if not before), the
English Kings assumed that Scotland was a fief of theirs. It was partly on
these grounds that Edward I demanded the right to adjudicate the succession
problem in Scotland upon the death of the Maid of Norway in 1290. Part of
his price for advising the heirs was that all of them agree to acknowledge
his overlordship, whereupon he chose the one least likely to make much
trouble for him, John Balliol, as King, in 1292. (According to more modern
notions of primogeniture, John B had the best claim anyway. But this didn't
prevent the English lawyers from making precisely the opposite disposition
in the parallel case of the Dukes of Brittany a few years later -- because
the heir by primogeniture would have been the wife of a Frenchman, the Count
of Blois, and the heir by closest generation was the Count of Montfort, a
vassal of Edward III.)
By 1296, John found his situation absolutely untenable, and abdicated in
Edward's favor.
But it would be quite legitimate to regard Scotland, since it was a fief, as
part of the Angevin Empire, since that Empire was never a state but only a
"sphere of influence", and exists primarily in the minds of historians.
Jean Coeur de Lapin
atsar...@hotmail.com
Robert W Fay
Well, Jean's explanation of course makes sense.
But the date of 1196 doesn't seem to correspond with the 1157 date given in
Plantagenet Chronicles. And the online map was for 1180 as I recall.
My reference material doesn't seem to include the details of this. But the
references seem to be clear that it is a fealty relationship compelled in 1157.
Here is the Plantagenet quote again to compare with Jean's quote.
"The Plantagenet Chronicles" Elizabeth Hallam, Weidenfield & Nicholson,
New York 1986, page 93 and in the discussion of Henry II they state "During
his reign Henry made further gains on the peripheries of his lands. In 1157,
he compelled the Scottish king to pay him homage, Henry retaining the
disputed Northumbrian lands. In the 1150's and 1160's he turned the Welsh
into valuable allies. In 1171 he invaded Ireland and by 1175 he had compelled
all the native kings to do homage to him."
Does anyone have a more definitive account of the history of this in 1157?
Thanks,
Bob Fay
John Ravilious
Hello Jean, Gordon, Bob et al.,
Maps are representations of political viewpoints, or interpretations of fact, as often (or more often) than they are of facts. A look at a map of Yugoslavia [in the current sense], of Israel [+/- the West Bank and/or the Golan], of China [+/- Tibet] will give a clear sense of the viewpoint of the mapmaker, or of his acceptance/interpretation of others.
I think therefore that any map showing an Angevin 'empire', consisting of England and any other composition of territories without denoting differences in tenure (Normandy vs. Gascony, for example) or alleged overlordship vs. de facto power [southern Wales vs. Connaught] oversimplifies the situation, whether in 1154, 1173 or 1189.
That being said, I would like to point to the following facts (or at least my interpretation of same, if you will):
1. William 'the Lion' fell into the power of Henry II, not Richard, in 1173 outside Alnwick. The ignominious result of his capture in England and imprisonment in Normandy was the Treaty of Falaise (ratified at York in 1175), the language of which would appear to be a thorough capitulation and surrender of the sovereignty of the King of Scots, to the extent that it stated (amongst other provisions)
'that if the king of Scots shall by any mischance default in his fealty to the lord king Henry, and shall thus break the aforesaid agreement, then they will hold to the lord king Henry as their liege lord, against the king of Scots and against all men hostile to the lord king Henry.'
[ref. Henry II, by W. L. Warren [Univ. Calif. Press], pp. 184-187]
* Very important fact, somehow overlooked by Edward I and his lawyers :
2. William and his brother David, Earl of Huntingdon [the two Kilroys of Scottish ancestry for members of this list and assorted others] attended the court of Richard I, 'Coeur de Lion', at Canterbury in late 1189. In part to raise funds for his forthcoming crusade, Richard agreed to the 'Quit-claim of Canterbury', dated 5 December 1189. As described by John Gillingham [Richard I (Yale Univ. Press, 1999), p. 113], under the terms of this document Richard restored to William the castles of Roxburgh and Berwick, and 'FORMALLY ACKNOWLEDGED SCOTLAND'S INDEPENDENCE FROM ENGLAND.'
Edward I of England [aka 'Long-shanks'] was nothing if not a typical medieval ruler [or businessman, for that matter]: put forward the strongest arguments and evidence for your own case, and worry not about the merits of the other side [merits, indeed!].
Dieu et mon droit!
Or, as Theodore Roosevelt would have said [if cast as Henry II instead of Peter O'Toole],
'Speak softly and carry a big feudal host.'
Good luck and good hunting.
John
__________________________________________________________________
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Webmail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/
P A MagLOCHLAINN
(snip)
Robert W Fay wrote in message <3A8D911F.3261.21C737@localhost>...
Hi Gordon,
There are a number of very nice maps online (snip)
To answer your question refer to "The Plantagenet Chronicles" Elizabeth
Hallam, Weidenfield & Nicholson, New York 1986, page 93 and in the
discussion of Henry II they state "During his reign Henry made further gains
on the peripheries of his lands. In 1157, he compelled the Scottish king to
pay him homage, Henry retaining the disputed Northumbrian lands. In the
1150's and 1160's he turned the Welsh into valuable allies. In 1171 he
invaded Ireland and by 1175 he had compelled all the native kings to do
homage to him."
CORRECTION -
Henry of England never managed to secure the homage of either my family, who
were then Kings of Cinéal Eoghain (most of middle Ulster, including
Inishowen peninsula, the city of Derry, and most of modern counties
Londonderry and Tyrone), or that of our west -ern neighbours, the Kings of
Cinéal Conaill (most of modern County Donegal).
(snip)
Bob Fay
=======
Date forwarded: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 19:18:49 -0800
From: GRHa...@cs.com
Date sent: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 22:18:42 EST
Subject: Re: Angevin Empire
To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
Forwarded by: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
Hi Bob,
I noticed that the map you supplied the URL for shows Scotland as
part of the Angevin realm. Do you think that is correct? I didn't think
that happened until after Edward I, later than 1180.
Gordon Reid Hale
==============
rean...@yahoo.ca
> Hi to all on the list,
> I am new to this list, and boy is a busy one! I am working on my husbands
> family tree. I was wondering who all might be connected to the Angevine
> Family. My husband decends from Louis (Angevine) D'Anjou, Born:1530/1550
> Angiers, Anjou, (Duchy of), France. Died: 1628 During the Seige of La
> Rochelle, France. Would love to share info with other family members. Louis
> is my husbands 12th great grandfather.
>
> Theresa
> Richmond, VA
If you got this from clyde angevines book then this is the branch that was traced back to the royal line I am in that book as well 2 brothers came over kings james 11 and yes L'angevin is the french spelling of the same name he had more material but I do not think it ever got published or where it got too Etheel Whyeus may have some additional information etb...@verizon.net is her emailmy name is Ruth Angevine
condyfee
> Hi to all on the list,
> I am new to this list, and boy is a busy one! I am working on my husbands
> family tree. I was wondering who all might be connected to the Angevine
> Family. My husband decends from Louis (Angevine) D'Anjou, Born:1530/1550
> Angiers, Anjou, (Duchy of), France. Died: 1628 During the Seige of La
> Rochelle, France. Would love to share info with other family members. Louis
> is my husbands 12th great grandfather.
>
> Theresa
> Richmond, VA
Hovite
> <GRHa...@cs.com> wrote in message news:42.10c53b6...@cs.com...
> to do homage for his kingdom. (c. 1196?) Thereafter (if not before), the
> English Kings assumed that Scotland was a fief of theirs.
http://www.kemble.asnc.cam.ac.uk/sites/default/files/files/XXXVI_%20Sub-kings.pdf
amy.j...@gmail.com
amy.j...@gmail.com
madj...@gmail.com
I follow your tree exactly right down to Anthony Angevine 1730 married to Esther Burr!! For me Anthony is my 5 g grandfather.
Anthony’s granddaughter Aurilla married my 3rd g grandfather Cornelius Statia and they lived in either Vermont or New York.
I would love to connect.
I am first in my dads Balch family born in Canada and I currently live in Nova Scotia.
Where do you reside?
firewo...@gmail.com
.