Ancestry of Robert the Bruce
Debr...@aol.com
mentioned in the article or other ones?
Thanks.
Debra Munn
<<Interesting article in Baronage "The Ancestry of Robert the Bruce, I~The
first Earls of Carrick" >>
Suzanne Doig
>Would anyone be so kind as to list some of this ancestry, either the lines
>mentioned in the article or other ones?
There is an outline chart of the ancestry of Robert I Bruce on my
website at
<http://www.geocities.com/smdnz/gene/dorothy6.htm#Marshal2>.
The chart actually traces the ancestry of his full brother Edward
Bruce, High King of Ireland, but obviously it's the same ancestry :-).
The key to the charts is at the top of the page.
Suzanne
* - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * -
Suzanne Doig - remove obvious from reply-to address
http://www.geocities.com/smdnz/
John Ravilious
Thursday, December 9, 1999
Hello Suzanne:
After noting your message re: Robert _the_ Bruce [and his brother
Edward], I paid a visit to your web page. An excellent job!
I noted the Cuninghame connection, via the marriage (oft debated)
of Sir William Cuninghame, Earl of Carrick de jure uxoris, and Helen
Bruce, and concur with your acceptance of the argument that the
reversion of the Earldom to the crown in or before 1368 was related to
Helen Bruce's death [and King David II's designs] as opposed to the lack
of legitimate heirs.
Two questions:
1) Given the portions of the ancestry shown for Campbell of
Loudoun and others, I was wondering if perhaps one of your
sources was the book Roberdeau Genealogy, by R. Buchanan
(1876)?
2) Due to my own connections to the Cuninghames of Craigends
(our branch uses the spelling Cunyngham), I have developed
additional information on several lines, including Campbell
of Loudoun, Montgomerie of Eglinton [_Agnes of the Isles_]
and others. I will forward same as soon as possible,
but please let me know if you are still seeking additional
information on other specific lines.
So Fork Forward.
John
raymond l montgomery
Suzanne et al.
I have margaret douglas born circa 1324 married to Alexander Montgomery
born 1280\1295. I have her parents as
William douglas of douglas born abt 1305 and her mother as margaret de
dunbar born about 1305. the daughter of patrick dunbar and Marjarie
(bridget) comyn.
The parents of alexander Montgomery where John Montgomery seventh of
montgomery and his wife janet Erskine
Hope this helps
RAY
On Wed, 15 Dec 1999 02:02:47 GMT smd49@*!*its.canterbury.ac.nz (Suzanne
Doig) writes:
>On 9 Dec 1999 16:46:10 -0800, ther...@erols.com (John Ravilious)
>wrote:
>
>> I noted the Cuninghame connection, via the marriage (oft
>debated)
>>of Sir William Cuninghame, Earl of Carrick de jure uxoris, and Helen
>>Bruce, and concur with your acceptance of the argument that the
>>reversion of the Earldom to the crown in or before 1368 was related
>to
>>Helen Bruce's death [and King David II's designs] as opposed to the
>lack
>>of legitimate heirs.
>
>Cuninghame could be created Earl of Carrick, and then lose that title
>without rebelling. While the marriage may not be proven, it is surely
>the best-fit scenario.
>
>> 1) Given the portions of the ancestry shown for Campbell of
>> Loudoun and others, I was wondering if perhaps one of your
>> sources was the book Roberdeau Genealogy, by R. Buchanan
>> (1876)?
>
>link to Campbell of Loudoun is Burke's Landed Gentry, 15th ed (1937) p
>537, not the most reliable of works. I have been unable to establish
>the parentage of 'Sir John Campbell of Loudoun', whose daughter Giles
>married William Cuninghame of Craigends, mostly due to a lack of dates
>and number of possibilities.
>
>> 2) Due to my own connections to the Cuninghames of Craigends
>> (our branch uses the spelling Cunyngham), I have developed
>> additional information on several lines, including Campbell
>> of Loudoun, Montgomerie of Eglinton [_Agnes of the Isles_]
>> and others. I will forward same as soon as possible,
>>but please let me know if you are still seeking additional
>> information on other specific lines.
>
>make available. My main sources for these charts have been CP, various
>Burke's publications, and posts to the newsgroup.
>
>On casting an eye quickly across my charts, I can see one big
>unsatisfactory link - Margaret Douglas, wife of Alexander Montgomery
>and mother of John Montgomery of Eaglesham (d.1401). I have this
>Margaret as a *second* illegitimate child of William, 1st Earl of
>Douglas and Margaret Stewart, Countess of Angus. There are
>chronological difficulties as well as a lack of hard evidence for
>Margaret's parentage.
>
>Suzanne
>
>* - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * -
> Suzanne Doig - remove obvious from reply-to address
> http://www.geocities.com/smdnz/
>
___________________________________________________________________
Why pay more to get Web access?
Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW!
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Suzanne Doig
Suzanne Doig
montgomery) wrote:
>I have margaret douglas born circa 1324 married to Alexander Montgomery
>born 1280\1295. I have her parents as
>William douglas of douglas born abt 1305 and her mother as margaret de
>dunbar born about 1305. the daughter of patrick dunbar and Marjarie
>(bridget) comyn.
Thank you for this, Ray, it looks chronologically much more
consistent. Can you identify the parents and/or grandparents of
William Douglas of Douglas, and do you have any sources noted for this
link?
John Ravilious
>
> * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * -
> Suzanne Doig - remove obvious from reply-to address
> http://www.geocities.com/smdnz/
Thursday, Dec. 16, 1999
Hello Suzanne -
The book I referred to in my last post [Roberdeau Genealogy] was
published in 1876, and consists of two primary sections: (1) a
memorandum written or completed in 1740 by one Robert Cunyngham
[Cunningham], a descendant of James Cunningham of Ashinyards, younger
brother of the 4th Laird of Craigends, providing a genealogy as of that
date of the Earls of Glencairn, the Lairds of Craigends and his own
branch including his siblings and children down to that date; and (2)
the career of Daniel Roberdeau (1727-1795), his grandson and one-time
merchant, militia leader of the Pennsylvania Brigade and signer of the
Articles of Confederation, and the genealogy of his descendants and
those of his sister down to 1876.
The link with the Campbells of Loudoun is somewhat problematic, as
the Sir John Campbell of Killock is not elsewhere identified. A
genealogical history of Ayrshire by either Paterson or Robertson (I will
dig out the reference later) provides a connection, but indicates the
name John is an error: this is stated as actually being George Campbell,
a second son of Sir George Campbell of Loudoun (d. ca. 1492). The line
I have, from this source and Scots Peerage, is as follows:
1. Sir Colin Mor Campbell, lord of Loch Awe, k. 1296
1. Sir Neil Campbell (ancestor of the Lords Campbell, Dukes
of Argyll)
2. NN, a daughter, m. Angus Mor mac Donald
3. Sir Donald Campbell of Benderloch, m. Amabila
1. Sir Duncan Campbell of Red Castle, acq. Loudoun by
marriage; m. Susanna, dau. of Sir Reginald Crawford,
sheriff of Ayr, exe. 1307
1. Sir Andrew Campbell of Loudoun, sheriff of Ayr
1. Sir Hugh Campbell, d. after 1430
1. George Campbell, sheriff of Ayr; d. by 1484
1. Sir George Campbell, m. Elizabeth Stewart
[connection not yet found]
1. Sir George Campbell of Loudoun, d.ca. 1492
m. daughter of Gilbert, 1st Lord Kennedy
and grandson of King Robert III (1390-1406)
[no such daughter found in Scots Peerage]
1. George Campbell, 2nd son: laird of
Killock
1. Giles [Egidia], m. William
Cuninghame, 2nd of Craigends
A gap I noticed in the table of ancestry for Dorothy Cuninghame,
was 'Agnes of the Isles', 1st wife of Sir John Montgomery, laird of
Eaglesham and Ardrossan (d.ca. 1428). Paul, in Scots Peerage, did not
draw any connection directly to the MacDonalds of the Isles, but this
has been done subsequently by others who have shown that she is Agnes,
or Annes, daughter of Donald mac Donald, Lord of the Isles (d. 1423) by
Margaret Leslie, heiress of Ross. Here is what I have:
1. Agnes [Annes] 'of the Isles', m. Sir John Montgomery; she d. before
March 1414 [issue: Alexander, 1st Lord Montgomery, and
Agnes/Anne, who m. Sir Robert Cuningham, parents of Alexander,
1st Earl of Glencairn]
2. Domnall or Donald mac Eoin mac Donald, Lord of the Isles 1387-1423
3. Margaret Leslie, heiress of Ross
4. Eoin mac Angus mac Donald, Lord of the Isles 1330-1387
5. Margaret Stewart
6. Sir Walter Leslie, d. 1382 (held to be Earl of Ross dju)
7. Euphemia of Ross, countess of Ross 1372-1394
8. Angus _Og_ mac Angus mac Donald, lord of Islay and Argyll, d. 1330
9. Agnes or Annes O'Cathan, of Ulster
10. King Robert II [Robert Stewart, Lord High Steward 1327-1371],
King of Scots 1371-1390
11. Euphemia Mure, d. before 1355
12. Sir Andrew Leslie
13. Mary Abernethy
14. William, Earl of Ross 1333-1372
15. Mary mac Donald [daughter of #8 and #9]
16. Angus _Mor_ mac Donald, lord of Islay, d. 1296
17. NN Campbell, dau. of Sir Colin _Mor_ Campbell
18. Guy O'Cathan, local lord in Ulster
19.
20. Walter Stewart, Lord High Steward of Scotland, d. 1327
21. Marjory Bruce, dau. of King Robert I _the_ Bruce, d. 1316
22. Sir Adam Mure of Rowallan
23. Janet [Jean?] Mure, 2nd wife
24. Sir Norman Leslie
25.
26. Sir Alexander Abernethy of Abernethy
27.
28. Hugh, Earl of Ross 1323-1333
29. Maud Bruce, sister of King Robert I
30. same as 8
31. same as 9
More to follow - hope this helps. In the meantime, good luck and
good hunting.
So Fork Forward. John
raymond l montgomery
do you have program that will handle gedcoms?
If so i will send you what i have on this family in a couple different
sections.
Also will your email handle Gedcoms?
RAY
On Thu, 16 Dec 1999 02:38:27 GMT smd49@*!*its.canterbury.ac.nz (Suzanne
Doig) writes:
>On 14 Dec 1999 23:54:09 -0800, jmon...@juno.com (raymond l
>montgomery) wrote:
>
>>I have margaret douglas born circa 1324 married to Alexander
>Montgomery
>>born 1280\1295. I have her parents as
>>William douglas of douglas born abt 1305 and her mother as margaret
>de
>>dunbar born about 1305. the daughter of patrick dunbar and Marjarie
>>(bridget) comyn.
>
>Thank you for this, Ray, it looks chronologically much more
>consistent. Can you identify the parents and/or grandparents of
>William Douglas of Douglas, and do you have any sources noted for this
>link?
>
>Suzanne
>
>* - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * -
> Suzanne Doig - remove obvious from reply-to address
> http://www.geocities.com/smdnz/
>
___________________________________________________________________
raymond l montgomery
This is what i have for a tufel on John Montgomery that married Elizabeth
Eglington per your question then the sources for the generation you
asked about the link on. Please see comments dispersed through out.
I apoligize before hand for my sintax (boy this is going to get
expensive!!!!!!!!!! :) Does any one know the anount of tax on each sin?
and also mistakes. Corrections and additions welcomed. Please also not
that some of the missing info is know but not posted. Questions also
welcomed as they usually shed light.
1. John Montgomery born abt 1343 Eaglesham Scotland died 1388
2. Alexander Montgomery born abt 1305 Eaglesham Scotland
3. margaret Douglas born circa 1324 married to Alexander Montgomery
4. John Montgomery 7th lord Montgomery born 1244
5. janet Erskine of erskine born abt 1265
6. William Douglas First Earl of Douglas born abt 1310 died may 1384
7. Margaret Dunbar Born about 1305
8. Sir John MOntgomery of Eastwood Sixth lord of Montgomery born abt 1209
died 1285
9. Margaret Murrey of bothwell born about 1220
10. Sir John Erskine lord erskine born abt 1226
11. NN
12. Sir Archibald Douglas born about 1267 died 19 jul 1333
13. Beatic Lindsay born abt 1285
14. Patrick Dunbar Earl of Dunbar. born 1242\43
15. Marjory Comyn born about 1265
16. Alen De Montgomery 4th lord of Montgomery born 20 jan 1199
17. NN possibly miss Heiress of Stair
18. William Murrey Baron of Bothwell born abt 1200
19. Not yet researched
20. Sir John Erskine born abt 1206
21. NN
22. NN.
23. NN
24. Sir William Douglas "le Hardi" of Douglas born about 1240
25. Elearnor Lovayne born about 1228
26. Sir Alexander De Lindsay born abt 1267
27. Miss Stewart of Crawford born abt 1268
29. Patrick Dunbar 7th Earl of dunbar born 1213 died 24 aug 1289
30. Celilia Frazer born abt 1227
31. Alexander Comyn Earl of Buchan born abt 1217
32. Eleanor de Quincy born abt 1216 died 12 apr 1282
33. John De Montgomery 3rd of Montgomery born Eaglesham abt 1170 died aft
1239
34. Helen De Kent born about 1170
66. Sir Alan Montgomery Second of Montgomery born abt 1144
67. Miss St. Martin born about 1144 of Paisley Scotland
68. Robert De Kent born abt 1144 of East Lothian Inverwick Scotland
132. Robert De Montgomery 1st Lord of Montgomery born 1125 Eaglesham
133. marjory Fitzalan born abt 1127
134. Henrico De St. martino (henry St. Martin) born abt 1118 Paisley
264. Philip De Montgomery born 1102 Penbrokeshire Wales died 1177
Thornton Scotland
265. Margaret Dunbar born abt 1100
266. Walter Fitzalan High Stewart of Scotland Born about 1106 Died 1177
267. Eschyna De Molle born abt 1125
528. Arnulph De Montgomery born about 1074 Alencon Maine France died 1125
529. Lafracoth O'Brien Princess of Leinster Ire.
530. Gospatrick 2nd Earl of Northumberland born abt 1062
531. Sybil Morel born about 1074
1054. Roger De Montogomery born 1022 died 27 jul 1094 (note Arnulph was
the last child of the union of his parents/
1055. Mabile de Talvas born about 1028 died 2 dec 1079
1056 King Mortogh O'Brien died 1119 Munster Ire.
1057. Dubheoblaigh of ossary
2108. Roger De Montgomery born 985 Montgomery Normandy France
2109. Joceline (or Wevie) Pontaudemer (or Forrester) [See long running
disagreement between Todd Farmerie and my self. Any one else wont to
join?
2110. Guilliam II counte of Talvas Earl of Belesme born abt 990
2111 hildeburgeDe Beaumont Chev born abt 994
4116. Hugh De Montgomery born about 958
8232. William De Monte Gummeri Born about 930 Mount Gomeric St. Germain
France
16464. Roger De Monte Gummeri Born abt 891 Mount Gomeric St. Germain
France
32928. Prince Gomeri (Roger the Great) Ingvarson born abt 844 Ringstad
Denmark died aft 911 Normandy France.
[evidenced to be brother of Rollo by several contempary
records]
65856. Ingvar Ragnarsson born 802 died 873 Dublin Ireland {This is up
for discussion!}
131712. Ragnar "lodbrock" Halfdanson born abt 774 {This is up For
Discussion}
263424. Halfdan Sigardson born about 750 Denmark
526848. Sigard "Ring" Randverson born about 724 Denmark
On Thu, 16 Dec 1999 02:38:27 GMT smd49@*!*its.canterbury.ac.nz (Suzanne
Doig) writes:
>On 14 Dec 1999 23:54:09 -0800, jmon...@juno.com (raymond l
>montgomery) wrote:
>
>>I have margaret douglas born circa 1324 married to Alexander
>Montgomery
>>born 1280\1295. I have her parents as
>>William douglas of douglas born abt 1305 and her mother as margaret
>de
>>dunbar born about 1305. the daughter of patrick dunbar and Marjarie
>>(bridget) comyn.
>
>Thank you for this, Ray, it looks chronologically much more
>consistent. Can you identify the parents and/or grandparents of
>William Douglas of Douglas, and do you have any sources noted for this
>link?
The Source Notes for these links are as follows. Please note that i do
not have the names of the Numbers handy as they are LDS Medieval Family
no. that they assigned to diferent reference books. Perhaps if paul reed
has some time ( yea right) he could ask some one or perhaps tell us?
1. #2135 page 249
2. #2358 Vol. 1 pages 10, and 11
3. #2358 Vol. 1 pages 12, and 13
4. # 189 pages 425, 426, and fn7
Hope this helps
RAY
Leo van de Pas
> This is what i have for a tufel on John Montgomery that married Elizabeth
> Eglington per your question then the sources for the generation you
> asked about the link on. Please see comments dispersed through out.
> I apoligize before hand for my sintax (boy this is going to get
> expensive!!!!!!!!!! :) Does any one know the anount of tax on each sin?
> and also mistakes. Corrections and additions welcomed. Please also not
> that some of the missing info is know but not posted. Questions also
> welcomed as they usually shed light.
Young Raymond,
A few remarks amongst the details. My main question is, where did you get
the Lord title for those Montgomerys? The Complete Peerage maintains that
the title was created circa 1445?
> 1. John Montgomery born abt 1343 Eaglesham Scotland died 1388
............Somehow I doubt he died in 1388 because in 1388, after the
battle of Otterburn,
he captured Sir Henry Percy "hotspur" who, for ransom, had to build the
castle of Polnoon
in Eaglesham.
> 2. Alexander Montgomery born abt 1305 Eaglesham Scotland
> 3. margaret Douglas born circa 1324 married to Alexander Montgomery
> 4. John Montgomery 7th lord Montgomery born 1244
> 5. janet Erskine of erskine born abt 1265
> 6. William Douglas First Earl of Douglas born abt 1310 died may 1384
> 7. Margaret Dunbar Born about 1305
................Where did you find Margaret Dunbar's name? They were not
married
and so 3.Margaret Douglas was illegitimate.
> 8. Sir John MOntgomery of Eastwood Sixth lord of Montgomery born abt 1209
> died 1285
> 9. Margaret Murrey of bothwell born about 1220
.............I have her as uncertain
> 10. Sir John Erskine lord erskine born abt 1226
> 11. NN
> 12. Sir Archibald Douglas born about 1267 died 19 jul 1333
..............he was killed in battle on that date at Halidon Hill
> 13. Beatic Lindsay born abt 1285
> 14. Patrick Dunbar Earl of Dunbar. born 1242\43
> 15. Marjory Comyn born about 1265
> 16. Alen De Montgomery 4th lord of Montgomery born 20 jan 1199
> 17. NN possibly miss Heiress of Stair
> 18. William Murrey Baron of Bothwell born abt 1200
> 19. Not yet researched
> 20. Sir John Erskine born abt 1206
> 21. NN
> 22. NN.
> 23. NN
> 24. Sir William Douglas "le Hardi" of Douglas born about 1240
..........he died before 24 January 1296 in London as a prisoner
> 25. Elearnor Lovayne born about 1228
................for her I have Elizabeth Stewart, daughter of Alexander 4th
Lord High Stewart
and Jean Macrory
> 26. Sir Alexander De Lindsay born abt 1267
> 27. Miss Stewart of Crawford born abt 1268
........................I have no name for her.
> 28. Patrick Dunbar 7th Earl of dunbar born 1213 died 24 aug 1289
............he died at Whittingham
> 29. Celilia Frazer born abt 1227
...........I have her as Cecilia (Fraser ?)
> 30. Alexander Comyn Earl of Buchan born abt 1217
> 31. Eleanor de Quincy born abt 1216 died 12 apr 1282
> 32. John De Montgomery 3rd of Montgomery born Eaglesham abt 1170 died aft
> 1239
> 34. Helen De Kent born about 1170
............I have her as Helen only, no surname
You have so many born about, are they your guestimates? I have to rush off
to see someone
in hospital. When I come home I will look at the rest.
Best wishes
Leo
raymond l montgomery
You have notice my weaknesses here!!!
I will answer per your notes. Unfortuneately as i dont have a whole lot
of time, I have had to make the choise of being precise and getting
little done or take the chance statistically of getting alot done and
having some errors. I do try to have the names to the parents correct and
other relationships correct. but other data does not have as high a
priority. I know Shame Shame on me. that is perhaps why i do not have a
web page nor post it publicly because of this concern. I do not have this
concern however on this forum. If i make a mistake it will be quickly
found and exposed. Thank heavens. so please all, if there are
weaknesses here please expose them, so the mistakes or problems are not
propogated. (yea like that will not take place :) )
On Thu, 23 Dec 1999 17:18:13 +0800 "Leo van de Pas"
<leov...@iinet.net.au> writes:
>> Doctor Suzanne And dear Friend Leo. I hope you can use this stuff.
>> This is what i have for a tufel on John Montgomery that married
>Elizabeth
>> Eglington per your question then the sources for the generation you
>> asked about the link on. Please see comments dispersed through out.
>> I apoligize before hand for my sintax (boy this is going to get
>> expensive!!!!!!!!!! :) Does any one know the anount of tax on each
>sin?
>> and also mistakes. Corrections and additions welcomed. Please also
>not
>> that some of the missing info is know but not posted. Questions
>also
>> welcomed as they usually shed light.
>
>Young Raymond,
>A few remarks amongst the details. My main question is, where did you
>get
>the Lord title for those Montgomerys? The Complete Peerage maintains
>that
>the title was created circa 1445?
Leo Thanks I will investigate this, but i have all of my info on these
families boxed and stored. This will take some time but will be done.
>> 1. John Montgomery born abt 1343 Eaglesham Scotland died 1388
>............Somehow I doubt he died in 1388 because in 1388, after the
>battle of Otterburn,
>he captured Sir Henry Percy "hotspur" who, for ransom, had to build
>the
>castle of Polnoon
>in Eaglesham.
>
>> 2. Alexander Montgomery born abt 1305 Eaglesham Scotland
>> 3. margaret Douglas born circa 1324 married to Alexander Montgomery
>> 4. John Montgomery 7th lord Montgomery born 1244
>> 5. janet Erskine of erskine born abt 1265
>> 6. William Douglas First Earl of Douglas born abt 1310 died may 1384
>> 7. Margaret Dunbar Born about 1305
>................Where did you find Margaret Dunbar's name? They were
>not
>married
>and so 3.Margaret Douglas was illegitimate.
Probably true, as i do not see any details of this in my notes. This may
have been before i started to keep good notes as i have had some of this
for a couple years.
Remember i am Young LOL ! :)
>> 8. Sir John MOntgomery of Eastwood Sixth lord of Montgomery born abt
>1209
>> died 1285
>> 9. Margaret Murrey of bothwell born about 1220
>.............I have her as uncertain
HMM I am at my office reading this and will have to post my notes and
sources in the next couple of days on this one. I dont how ever remember
seeing any thing that said there where any concerns here? I will check
fraser and see what he says.
>> 10. Sir John Erskine lord erskine born abt 1226
>> 11. NN
>> 12. Sir Archibald Douglas born about 1267 died 19 jul 1333
>..............he was killed in battle on that date at Halidon Hill
>
>
>> 13. Beatic Lindsay born abt 1285
>> 14. Patrick Dunbar Earl of Dunbar. born 1242\43
>> 15. Marjory Comyn born about 1265
>> 16. Alen De Montgomery 4th lord of Montgomery born 20 jan 1199
>> 17. NN possibly miss Heiress of Stair
>> 18. William Murrey Baron of Bothwell born abt 1200
>> 19. Not yet researched
>> 20. Sir John Erskine born abt 1206
>> 21. NN
>> 22. NN.
>> 23. NN
>> 24. Sir William Douglas "le Hardi" of Douglas born about 1240
>..........he died before 24 January 1296 in London as a prisoner
>
>
>> 25. Elearnor Lovayne born about 1228
>................for her I have Elizabeth Stewart, daughter of
>Alexander 4th
>Lord High Stewart
>and Jean Macrory
Agian i will have to check my sources but you are probably right. going
by memory I think i had that to be gin with and then changed it from a
source from here on Gen-medieval. I will check and let you know. That
would be a nicer pedigree granted but i prefer the proper relationships
:)
Amy one else want to comment??? please do!
>> 26. Sir Alexander De Lindsay born abt 1267
>> 27. Miss Stewart of Crawford born abt 1268
>........................I have no name for her.
Hmm will check on this also!
>> 28. Patrick Dunbar 7th Earl of dunbar born 1213 died 24 aug 1289
>............he died at Whittingham
>> 29. Celilia Frazer born abt 1227
>...........I have her as Cecilia (Fraser ?)
Will check on this also, but you are probably right!
>> 30. Alexander Comyn Earl of Buchan born abt 1217
>> 31. Eleanor de Quincy born abt 1216 died 12 apr 1282
>> 32. John De Montgomery 3rd of Montgomery born Eaglesham abt 1170
>died aft
>> 1239
>> 34. Helen De Kent born about 1170
>............I have her as Helen only, no surname
Will post sources for this
>You have so many born about, are they your guestimates?
Very much guestimates. Sorry
Todd A. Farmerie
raymond l montgomery wrote:
> 1054. Roger De Montogomery born 1022 died 27 jul 1094 (note Arnulph was
> the last child of the union of his parents/
> 1055. Mabile de Talvas born about 1028 died 2 dec 1079
>
I know, we have been over this before, but . . . .
> 2108. Roger De Montgomery born 985 Montgomery Normandy France
> 2109. Joceline (or Wevie) Pontaudemer (or Forrester) [See long running
> disagreement between Todd Farmerie and my self. Any one else wont to
> join?
>
> 4116. Hugh De Montgomery born about 958
> 8232. William De Monte Gummeri Born about 930 Mount Gomeric St. Germain
> France
> 16464. Roger De Monte Gummeri Born abt 891 Mount Gomeric St. Germain
> France
> 32928. Prince Gomeri (Roger the Great) Ingvarson born abt 844 Ringstad
> Denmark died aft 911 Normandy France.
> [evidenced to be brother of Rollo by several contempary
> records]
>
There is no contemporary evidence for a Roger the Great being brother
of Rollo. In fact, there is no contemporary evidence for a brother of
Rollo that I am aware of. The tale of the death of Gorm, brother of
Rollo, during the invasion comes either from Dudo or William (I am not
sure which).Neither of these mention an alternative name, nor a
relationship to the Montgomery family. Likewise, Gomeri is not an
expected variant of Gorm.
Moving to the other end of the connection, making Rollo a son of Ivar
'Ragnarson' is problematic. He is never so mentioned in the records
of Ivar, and considering the substantial traditions which grew up
around Inguar, as Ivar the Boneless, one would have expected even
a rumor of a connection to the founder of Normandy to take central
stage (as happened in the Orkneyinga Saga).
> 65856. Ingvar Ragnarsson born 802 died 873 Dublin Ireland {This is up
> for discussion!}
>
Inguar, King of Dublin was called brother of Olaf, who is given
entirely different roots and parentage.
> 131712. Ragnar "lodbrock" Halfdanson born abt 774 {This is up For
> Discussion}
>
This link is completely without support. Even if you accept
that a Ragnar Lothbrok existed, there is certainly nothing
which calls him son of a Halfdan Sigurdson (I know of no
evidence for such a person, reliable or otherwise). If you
accept the reliability of the late historical traditions of
Ragnar Lothbrok, what is the reasoning for rejecting the
parentage universally applied to him by those same sources.
> 263424. Halfdan Sigardson born about 750 Denmark
> 526848. Sigard "Ring" Randverson born about 724 Denmark
>
Sigurd (actually Siegfred) and Ring (Anulo) were
representatives of competing families, and killed each other
in battle. They could hardly then be the same person. If
you want to accept the sources which report this, why stop
here, rather than tracing the line on back through Odin,
Priam of Troy and Noah.
taf
Chris & Tom Tinney, Sr.
pages on the Rollo name at:
http://www.rollo.com/logo.htm
The first Rollo was a Viking.
http://www.rollo.com/geneaolgy.htm
In The Oxford Illustrated History of the Vikings,
twelve leading scholars draw on the latest research
and archaeological evidence to provide the clearest
picture yet of this fabled people.
http://www.oup-usa.org/isbn/0198205260.html
Joseph Cohen, circa A.D. 1575, wrote from the Hebrew
standpoint, Emek Habacha. About A.D. 810, Jews fled
from the violence of conflict in the region of present day
Germany, to England and elsewhere. This is verified in
The Oxford Illustrated History of the Vikings, as "It is clear,
however, that the raids along the North Sea littoral became
more frequent in the A.D. 830s, and more penetrating
and sustained thereafter; and it may be significant that these
developments coincided with increasing degrees of social
and political unrest in the affected countries." Ecgberht,
King of the West Saxons, fought against a combined force
of Vikings and Cornish at Hingston Down, in Cornwall County,
England, in A.D. 838.
A contemporary document in the year A.D. 833, by
Whitglaff [Witglass], King of the Mercians, formally
endowed to the monks of Croyland with all the property
they had previously been given by former Kings of Mercia;
also, all the property they had been given by any Christians
or Jews. "Seeing as the Jews obviously had land either to
give or have taken away from them by this date, they must
certainly have already been living in the region for some time
in order to have come by the land in the first place."
[See: Anglia Judaica or A History of the Jews in England]
AElfric (A.D. 955-1020), educated under AEthelwold at
Winchester, composed a Colloquy to his Latin Grammar,
showing Anglo-Saxon society in his lifetime. Gold, Tin, etc.,
were discussed under the occupation of The Merchant,
the typical occupation of the Jew. John Hatcher mentions
in: English Tin Production and Trade before 1550, page 17,
that Ibn Jacub, a well-travelled Arab in the late tenth century,
notes Jewish merchants and others were wont to frequent
Prague [capital of present day Czechoslovakia]. There they
purchased tin as well as slaves, furs, and other European wares.
Significantly, "Vikings did indeed control the Northern Seas
with the viciousness of pirates and that they pillaged Christian
towns with relentless ferocity. And yet we also discover that
they were shrewd traders whose dealings in fur in Russia
and walrus tusks in Iceland were the envy of Europe."
Individuals of Jewish ancestry were in positions of authority
at this time period in Italy, as show by the writings of
Ferdinand Gregorovius, concerning the History of the City
of Rome in the Middle Ages, [Italy], Vols. I-VIII. All of this
combined indicates the existence of a European wide network
of Jewish merchant contacts.
Book VII of this work, Chapter III, the History of the City
of Rome in the Eleventh Century, in Vol. IV, Part I., notes
[see also Vol. V, page 133 note.]:
The Trasteverines [the densely populated Jews' quarter in
Trastevere, Rome], or their chief, Leo de Benedicto Christiano,
a man of Jewish descent, opened the gates, upon which
Godfrey's troops occupied the Leonina and the island.
On his own authority Hildebrand deprived the Prefect Peter
of his office, and conferred it upon John Tiniosus, a nobleman
of the Trastevere . . .
{2} John was still prefect on 28 Apr 1060; he signs himself,
Reg. Farf., n. 935:
Johanne dom. gr. Romanorum prefectus.
Jews in the Mediterranean Diaspora, from Alexander to
Trajan, by John M. G. Barclay, published 1996, page 290,
notes that Jews in Rome became securely established
and that by Augustus' time they were settled predominantly
on the right bank of the Tiber, an area that is now called
the Trastevere. This surname Tiniosus is additionally
validated to be Jewish by the Corpus of Jewish Inscriptions,
Jewish Inscriptions from the Third Century B.C. to
the Seventh Century A. D., with # 530 showing
(F Sabbatius; H Felix Tineosus Iudaeus; N Creticus Iudeus).
1. ISACIS
2. SABBATIVS
3. FELIX TINEOSVS IVDAEVS
4. CRETIC[U]S IVEVS.
Respectfully yours,
Tom Tinney, Sr.
http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/~vctinney/homepage.htm#Here
Listed in: Who's Who In The West, 1998/1999
Who's Who In Genealogy and Heraldry,
[both editions]
-----------------------------------------
Todd A. Farmerie
> There is an interesting series of web
> pages on the Rollo name at:
> http://www.rollo.com/logo.htm
>
> The first Rollo was a Viking.
> http://www.rollo.com/geneaolgy.htm
Unfortunately, these pages are of poor quality, claiming, it
would seem, some significant relationship between the viking
leader Rollo and the later family of that surname. Likewise
some of the details provided on this viking are almost
certainly wrong (such as his name being a latinized version
of Rolf). Later int he history, it claims that Wiiliam the
Conqueror had a nephew Erik Rollo, from whom they
derive the Rollos. This is likewise false.
taf
raymond l montgomery
The site for rollo gen is posting very questionable data and info that
has been dicussed here. The data posted comes from snorre and does not
match with other known facts.
Further I have written them concerning the possibly of incorrect data in
the past and they did not even respond with any questions.
There fore it is evident that they dont care for what could be the truth.
RAY
On Fri, 24 Dec 1999 14:50:55 -0800 "Chris & Tom Tinney, Sr."
<vcti...@dcn.davis.ca.us> writes:
>There is an interesting series of web
>pages on the Rollo name at:
>http://www.rollo.com/logo.htm
>
>The first Rollo was a Viking.
>http://www.rollo.com/geneaolgy.htm
>
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raymond l montgomery
Concerning the info before rollo, and gorm I am pretty much worthless. As
you can tell. I used several sources which appear to have things pretty
messed up. These sources are independant of those listed below, but one.
Perhaps I should post these sources for critique.
Concerning the contempary sources of gorm, please see my posts of the
past that associate the two together.
I think that new records are going to have to come to light that will
help to better interperet the scant ones we have now, as they controdict
each other.
I guess it is a preferance of whom one choses to believe at this point.
As i have not read the Keats woman [sorry had to throw that in :)) ] i
wil have to obtain her material to see what she has to say. {i would
really like to know what she has found that would anul the works of
yeatman, D. B. De Montgomery, Fraser, and the MS in the biblioth in paris
France as posted previous. These are the thrust of my sources on the
subject and they all seem to agree, and they are from different times,
and do not quote each other.
thanks todd for your help thoughout the last year and the help we will
recieve in the year to come.
Sincerley
RAY
On Fri, 24 Dec 1999 11:54:00 -0500 "Todd A. Farmerie" <ta...@po.cwru.edu>
writes:
Suzanne Doig
montgomery) wrote:
Thanks to Ray, with comments interspersed below.
>1. John Montgomery born abt 1343 Eaglesham Scotland died 1388
I have d. Jul 1401.
>6. William Douglas First Earl of Douglas born abt 1310 died may 1384
CP IV:430 gives a birth date of c.1327 (so birthdate for dau would
need to be revised)
>12. Sir Archibald Douglas born about 1267 died 19 jul 1333
I M Davis, 'The Black Douglas' (London, 1974), pp 170-171, has
Archibald b. 1296
>13. Beatic Lindsay born abt 1285
This date is far too early, as Beatrice had at least three children by
her 2nd husband after Archibald's death in 1333.
>24. Sir William Douglas "le Hardi" of Douglas born about 1240
>25. Elearnor Lovayne born about 1228
Davis has William m.(1) Elizabeth Stewart (d.1289) then m.(2) Eleanor
de Lovaine. He makes James 'the Black' Douglas (b.c. 1286) a son of
the first marriage, and Hugh (b.1294) and Archibald (b.1296) sons of
the second marriage. If this is correct obviously Eleanor's birth date
needs revision.
48. Sir William 'Longleg', Lord of Douglas b.c. 1200 d. bef 1274
49. ?Constance
96. Archibald, Lord of Douglas b.c. 1198 d.1240
97. Margaret Crawford
192. William of Douglas, d.1213
194. Sir John Crawford
[Sources: Davis (as above), CP IV:432]
>26. Sir Alexander De Lindsay born abt 1267
>27. Miss Stewart of Crawford born abt 1268
I have her as a daughter of Alexander the Steward and Jean MacRory,
but without a source noted.
>1056 King Mortogh O'Brien died 1119 Munster Ire.
2112. Toirrdelbach ua Briain (Tirloch Mór O'Brien), King of Munster,
King of Ireland, b. 1009 d. 1086 Kincora Palace, Ireland
2113. Dirborgaill ingen Taidg, d. 1098 Glendaloch, Ireland
4224. Tadg mac Briain, King of Munster 1014-1023, murdered 1023
4225. Mor ingen Gilla Brigte Ua Mael Muaid
4226. Tadg mac Gilla Patraic, d. 1027
8448. Brian Bóruma mac Cennétig, King of Munster, High King of
Ireland, b.c. 926, d. 23 Apr 1014 Battle of Clontarf
8449. Echrad ingen Carlusa.
8450. Gilla Brigte ua Mael Muiad, King of Cenel Fiachach
8452. Gilla Patraic mac Donnchada, King of Ossory/Osraige d. 996
[Sources: Donough O'Brien 'History of the O'Briens from Brian Boroimhe
AD 1000 to 1945'; sgm archives]
raymond l montgomery
Thanks for the input, i am very busy but will review your comments!
Agian thanks!
RAY
________________________________________________________________