King Henry 1 of England and one particular descendant
Doug Holmes
I am interested in references about whether King Henry 1 of England was the
father of William de Tracy, Baron of Barnstaple who died in 1135.
A reference I have found about William de Tracy:
The book "A Genealogical and Heraldic History of the Extinct and Dormant
Baronetcies of England, Ireland, and Scotland" 1844 by John Burke (under the
section of the surname Tracy, of Stanway, pg.530), it says "The surname of
TRACY accrued to this family from a maternal ancestor, descended from the
Tracys, Lords of Barnstaple, in the county of Devon, who came in with the
Conqueror, and were styled from the town of Traci in Normandy."
The LDS (Mormons) ancestral file lists William de Tracy (person # 9FTL-Z8) as
the son of Henry 1 and "concubine 11 of England". So I can only assume this
unnamed woman was a Tracy. Does anyone know her identity and that of the
person
to come in with the conqueror from Traci in Normandy?
Further, I would like to know if any reference can be given for Grace de
Tracy,
wife of John de Sudeley, Baron Chados (1103-1140), as the daughter of the
above
William de Tracy.
Here is a reference I found in my notes about Grace de Tracy:
=============
Grace de Tracy, wife of John de Sudeley:
Listed as "dau. and heir of Henry de Traci" in the book "The General Armory."
She was the "heir of Traci, feudal Lord of Barnstaple..."
This note comes from the book "Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists
Who Came to America before 1700" 1992, by Frederick Lewis Weis, 7th ed.,
published by Genealogical Publishing Co. Inc.:
Page 184, Line 222, item #27.
"GRACE DE TRACY, parentage unknown; m. by 1130, JOHN DE SUDELEY (23523), of
Sudeley Castle and Toddington, co. Gloucester, appears in the 1130 pipe roll.
(Atkins, Glaucestershire 369; VCH Warwick V 70; Hist. Mon. St. Peter, Glouc.
ii 180; Sanders, 8586).
"Note: Grace is given in all standard sources as the "dau. & h." of William de
Tracy of Devonshire. However, recent research reveals that William de Tracy,
d. ca. 1135, was succeeded in his lands by 1165 by another William de Tracy
who was apparently his son. This second William de Tracy was NOT Grace's son
as commonly claimed even though she had a son with this name. Grace's son
William de Tracy was an adult by the 1140s, and he seems to have held only the
manor of Toddington, co. Gloucester, of the honour of Sudeley. Chronology
suggests that Grace herself was likely of the same generation as King Henry's
bastard son, William de Tracy. In any event, she was probably not William's
daughter and certainly not his heir."
====================
Thanks,
Doug Holmes
ps- If anyone is tracing the genealogies of these Tracys, or particularly the
Sudeley's, please contact me and we can compare notes.
William Addams Reitwiesner
do...@dholmes.com (Doug Holmes) wrote:
>I am interested in references about whether King Henry 1 of England was the
>father of William de Tracy, Baron of Barnstaple who died in 1135.
Yes. See the discussion on pp. 109-110 of Appendix D, "Henry I's
illegitimate children" (by Geoffrey H. White), in vol. XI (1949) of the
second edition of Cokayne's *Complete Peerage*.
>The LDS (Mormons) ancestral file lists William de Tracy (person # 9FTL-Z8) as
>the son of Henry 1 and "concubine 11 of England". So I can only assume this
>unnamed woman was a Tracy.
Why?
> Does anyone know her identity
No. Even calling her "concubine 11" is assuming too much.
William Addams Reitwiesner
wr...@erols.com
"Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc."
Doug Holmes
At 23:10 8.4.1998 +0000, William Addams Reitwiesner wrote:
>do...@dholmes.com (Doug Holmes) wrote:
>
>>I am interested in references about whether King Henry 1 of England was the
>>father of William de Tracy, Baron of Barnstaple who died in 1135.
>
>Yes. See the discussion on pp. 109-110 of Appendix D, "Henry I's
>illegitimate children" (by Geoffrey H. White), in vol. XI (1949) of the
>second edition of Cokayne's *Complete Peerage*.
Thanks for this most exact reference. I'll look for it.
>>The LDS (Mormons) ancestral file lists William de Tracy (person #
9FTL-Z8) as
>>the son of Henry 1 and "concubine 11 of England". So I can only assume this
>>unnamed woman was a Tracy.
>
>Why?
Because of the other reference I quoted saying that the Tracy line is from
a maternal side from Traci, Normandy. Why not? How else would he come up
with a name like Tracy when it wasn't from his own father? This is a very
common practice in Portugal, but I'm totally new to anything in Norman
traditions.
>> Does anyone know her identity
>
>No. Even calling her "concubine 11" is assuming too much.
Well, that's not my own wording. What term should they use in the ancestral
file? And since it's not my file, anything would have to be suggested to
the LDS.
>William Addams Reitwiesner
>wr...@erols.com
>
>"Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc."
Would you mind giving me a translation of your motto?
Thank you very much,
Doug
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Doug da Rocha Holmes - Genealogist
(Specialist in Pico & Terceira, Azores)
PORTUGUESE GENEALOGY HOME PAGE
www.dholmes.com/rocha1.html
The next genealogy workshop is scheduled for November 1998
See details: www.dholmes.com/workshop.html
Frank H. Johansen
William Addams Reitwiesner wrote:
> do...@dholmes.com (Doug Holmes) wrote:
>
> >I am interested in references about whether King Henry 1 of England was the
> >father of William de Tracy, Baron of Barnstaple who died in 1135.
>
> Yes. See the discussion on pp. 109-110 of Appendix D, "Henry I's
> illegitimate children" (by Geoffrey H. White), in vol. XI (1949) of the
> second edition of Cokayne's *Complete Peerage*.
>
> >The LDS (Mormons) ancestral file lists William de Tracy (person # 9FTL-Z8) as
> >the son of Henry 1 and "concubine 11 of England". So I can only assume this
> >unnamed woman was a Tracy.
>
> Why?
Because of *de Tracy*, but that's more than highly unlikely..... I don't think the
name "Tracy" was even in use those days.... It's short for "Beatrice", I guess..?
> > Does anyone know her identity
>
> No. Even calling her "concubine 11" is assuming too much.
>
UTZ
In a message dated 4/8/98 9:14:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
frank.j...@hm.telia.no writes:
> >I am interested in references about whether King Henry 1 of England was
the
> > >father of William de Tracy, Baron of Barnstaple who died in 1135.
>
From an article in NEHGR 119:94-101
as illegitimate child # 15 of Henry I:
William de Tracy, by an unknown mother. He left a daughter Grace who married
John de Sudeley of Sudeley Castle, co. Gloucester, 3rd son of Harold of Ewyas.
They had two known sons: Ralph de Sudeley, ancestor of the Barons Sudeley; and
William of Toddington, who adopted his mother's name, Tracy, and founded the
baronial family of that name--although the senior male line died out in 1797
with the death of the 8th Viscount Tracy, it is probable that descendants of
cadet branches survive.
Always optimistic--Dave
Todd A. Farmerie
Frank H. Johansen wrote:
>
> William Addams Reitwiesner wrote:
>
> > do...@dholmes.com (Doug Holmes) wrote:
> >
> > >father of William de Tracy, Baron of Barnstaple who died in 1135.
> >
> > illegitimate children" (by Geoffrey H. White), in vol. XI (1949) of the
> > second edition of Cokayne's *Complete Peerage*.
> >
> > >The LDS (Mormons) ancestral file lists William de Tracy (person # 9FTL-Z8) as
> > >the son of Henry 1 and "concubine 11 of England". So I can only assume this
> > >unnamed woman was a Tracy.
> >
> > Why?
>
> Because of *de Tracy*, but that's more than highly unlikely..... I don't think the
> name "Tracy" was even in use those days.... It's short for "Beatrice", I guess..?
>
Tracy was a toponymic surname which was developing at the time. I
recall seeing in Devon and Cornwall Notes and Queries an account of the
Tracy family back to a couple of generations before this time, and there
it was speculated that the mother of Henry's son William de Tracy was a
member of this family. I suspect that this is speculation based solely
on the surname.
taf
ED MANN
>
> In a message dated 4/8/98 9:14:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> frank.j...@hm.telia.no writes:
>
> the
> > > >father of William de Tracy, Baron of Barnstaple who died in 1135.
> >
>
> as illegitimate child # 15 of Henry I:
>
> William de Tracy, by an unknown mother. He left a daughter Grace who married
> John de Sudeley of Sudeley Castle, co. Gloucester, 3rd son of Harold of Ewyas.
Weis says Grace's parents are unknown. See Ä222-27.
--
FWIW; AFAIK; IMHO; YMMV; yadda, yadda, yadda.
Regards, Ed Mann mailto:edl...@mail2.lcia.com
References:
Ä = Weis, _Ancestral_Roots_, 7th ed.
AAP = Roberts, _Ancestors_of_American_Presidents_, [page] or
[Pres. # : page].
BP1 = _Burke's_Presidential_Families_, 1st ed. [page].
BPci = _Burke's_Peerage_, 101st ed., [page].
BRF = Weir, _Britain's_Royal_Families_, [page].
BxP = _Burke's_Dormant_&_Extinct_Peerages_, [page].
EC1 = Redlich, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol I, [page].
EC2 = Langston & Buck, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol II,
[page].
EC3 = Buck & Beard, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol II,
[page].
F = Faris, _Plantagenet_Ancestry_, [page:para].
S = Stuart, _Royalty_for_Commoners_, 2d ed.
W = Weis, _Magna_Charta_Sureties,_1215_, 4th ed.
Frank H. Johansen
Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
> Frank H. Johansen wrote:
> >
> > William Addams Reitwiesner wrote:
> >
> > > do...@dholmes.com (Doug Holmes) wrote:
> > >
> > > >I am interested in references about whether King Henry 1 of England was the
> > > >father of William de Tracy, Baron of Barnstaple who died in 1135.
> > >
> > > Yes. See the discussion on pp. 109-110 of Appendix D, "Henry I's
> > > illegitimate children" (by Geoffrey H. White), in vol. XI (1949) of the
> > > second edition of Cokayne's *Complete Peerage*.
> > >
> > > >The LDS (Mormons) ancestral file lists William de Tracy (person # 9FTL-Z8) as
> > > >the son of Henry 1 and "concubine 11 of England". So I can only assume this
> > > >unnamed woman was a Tracy.
> > >
> > > Why?
> >
> > Because of *de Tracy*, but that's more than highly unlikely..... I don't think the
> > name "Tracy" was even in use those days.... It's short for "Beatrice", I guess..?
> >
>
> Tracy was a toponymic surname which was developing at the time. I
> recall seeing in Devon and Cornwall Notes and Queries an account of the
> Tracy family back to a couple of generations before this time, and there
> it was speculated that the mother of Henry's son William de Tracy was a
> member of this family. I suspect that this is speculation based solely
> on the surname.
Yes, and what's even worse was that I thought of "Tracy" as a first name, when I said "I
don't think the name "Tracy" was even in use those days"........
FHJ
Jean Claude CHUAT
At 13:12 09/04/1998 -0700, Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
>Tracy was a toponymic surname which was developing at the time. I
>recall seeing in Devon and Cornwall Notes and Queries an account of the
>Tracy family back to a couple of generations before this time, and there
>it was speculated that the mother of Henry's son William de Tracy was a
>member of this family. I suspect that this is speculation based solely
>on the surname.
>
>taf
It may be relevant to note that Tracy is not uncommon as a place name in
France either. There are as many as four such place names in the postal
code directory - and there are probably more, I could look up. Remarkably,
two of the places are in Normandy:
TRACY BOCAGE 14310 VILLERS BOCAGE
TRACY SUR MER 14117 ARROMANCHES LES BAINS
and one is in the North of France:
TRACY LE MONT 60170 RIBECOURT DRESLINCOURT
The last is more remote from the British shores:
TRACY SUR LOIRE 58150 POUILLY SUR LOIRE, down in central France.
However, if I remember correctly, this place Tracy gave its name to a
feudal family that had ties with those of NEMOURS and DONZY. This family
was flourishing at the time of the Norman conquest or thereabouts - I can't
check at this moment, sorry. For all that, one would expect that an English
family by the name of Tracy would originate from one of the places in
Normandy.
Jean-Claude Chuat
---
Jean-Claude CHUAT
MEL: ch...@tolbiac.inserm.fr
FAX: 01 44 236 711 TEL: 01 44 236 119
SPI - DG - INSERM 101 rue de Tolbiac 75654 PARIS cedex 13
==========================================================================
Richard Borthwick
Families* (Baltimore, 1985 [1951]) 104-106.
>
CERRIDWEN
Sorry to bring up this spectre again, but I'm curious about the Kings
of Scotland (sons of Malcom III Canmore and St. Margaret Atheling).
The database says that Alexander I and his wife Sybilla (illegitimate
daughter of Henry I of England and Sybilla Corbet) had a son, Malcom
MacHeth, Earl of Ross (1110-1168). Why was he ignored for the kingship of
Scotland? Again, the Salic law did not apparently apply in Scotland: the
Maid of Norway would have become Queen of Scotland in the thirteenth
century if she had not died en route from Norway; and Mary Queen of Scots
apparently acceded with little opposition (possibly due to the lack of
immediate legitimate male alternatives?)
The database further states that Malcom Earl of Ross married and had a
daughter,
Gornflaeth, who married Harold II Maddadarson, Earl of Orkney. Is this
descent accurate?
Michelle Murphy
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Michelle Murphy | "Every man has two names: the one
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Leo van de Pas
>The database says that Alexander I and his wife Sybilla (illegitimate
>daughter of Henry I of England and Sybilla Corbet) had a son, Malcom
>MacHeth, Earl of Ross (1110-1168).
This statement is so close and yet so far away. I checked "Burke's Guide
to The Royal Family", and page 314 tells that Alexander I was childless
in his marriage, BUT in a footnote : he has an illegitimate son : Malcolm
Then the Complete Peerage volume XI page 141 : Malcolm MacEth,
illegitimate son of Alexander I, in 1124, upon Alexander I's death,
fought two battles 'for the crown' against his uncle David I.
Why was he ignored for the kingship of
>Scotland?
As the Complete Peerage says, he was not ignored. As far as I understand,
the early Scots had a system very different than in other countries.
When the king died the eligible men in the royal line came together
and then a decision was made who would become the next king. And
illegitimacy apparently was no bar against becoming king. Also some of the
Wessex kings were illegitimate. Try to find a tree of those early kings
and most are not succeeded by a son, but by a cousin, even though afterwards
a son becomes a king after all. This system prevented children from
becoming king.
Best wishes,
Leo van de Pas