Idonea de Herste and Ingelran de Monceux revisited

[janette...@talk21.com]

Dear List,

As some of you may have read in my earlier posting, I am retiring from the fray, and intended my post re Cecily d'Avranches to be my last attempt to add something useful or interesting to the general debate. However, there is unfinished business that would be good to find some sort of closure on. I will try not to make any clangers this time.

Some fifteen months ago I posted a long, possibly rambling and almost certainly contentious dissertation regarding the Monceux of Herstmonceux, and got zero, zilch, response.

Perhaps I overreached myself.

I am not claiming to have unraveled the nature of the inheritance of Juliana, daughter of John fitz Waleran; my main aim is to disentangle the romantic notion of Idonea the Saxon Maiden who married the Noble Norman Ingelram de Monceux, which can be found gracing the tourist literature of Herstmonceux.'....in the 12th century a saxon lady, Idonea de Herst married a Norman nobleman, Ingelram de Monceux, to give the place it's [sic] name.' Herstmonceux Parish website.

This much shorter salvo concentrates on Idonea's married status; for fuller reasoning, if you are interested, please go back to my original post.

Keats-Rohan [DP p476] has identified that William de Moncellis of 1086 came from Monceaux, Calvados, arr. and cant. Bayeux [now Monceaux-en-Bessin], whose descendant William de Monceus held 1 fee of Oliver de Tracy in Devon in 1166; while the later Alan de Moncellis came from Monchaux-Soreng, Seine-Maritime, arr. Neufchatel [DD p589].

That there is a relationship between Alan de Moncellis, given an interest in Boynton in East Yorkshire by Stephen Ct of Aumale before 1120-c1127 [EYC ii 1062] and Ralf de Moncellis, pardoned Danegeld in Sussex in 1129/30 is very probable. The appearance of the name Ingelran in both Sussex and Yorkshire is of interest, although only there is only the one instance in Sussex; also pertinent is that Alured de St Martin, who founded Robertsbridge Abbey was a person of some account with whom the Monceaux family had dealings back in Normandy.

Monchaux-Soreng is in the valley of the Bresle river, some 8km south-east of Incheville, closer than Battle and Hastings, or Battle and Herstmonceux. It is unlikely that the Monceux family were not familiar with Reynold de Anseville [Incheville], heir to William son of Wibert at Herst. The gift of the church of Westfield to Battle abbey, which is the reference Farrer gives for the affiliation of William son of Wibert and Reynold d'Anserville his heir, was made tempus Henry I ie 1107-1124 [Add Ch 20161].

Farrer HKF Vol 3, p376:
'Possibly the wife of William de Monceaus was the Idonea de Herste who gave her land in Broomhill, Suss, and Kent, to Robertsbridge abbey, for which the monks gave her a mark of silver and to Robert her son a talent of gold. The editors of the British Museum Facsimiles of Charters 4 date this gift c. 1176-80. It was confirmed by Idonea's son and heir Waleran de Herste, who on his seal was named Waleran de Monceaus.5 Another possibility suggested by this charter is that Idonea was the wife of Walter de Herste who attested a charter of 1176 with Robert his son.6'
4. Op. cit. n. 61.
5. Campb. Chs. Xxv. 10.
6. Ibid. vi. 5 ;Facsimiles of Chs. n. 57.

VCH Sussex Vol. Ix p149, Goldspur hundred, Broomhill:
'Other land in Broomhill was granted c. 1189 to Alfred de St Martin by Guy de Mortimer and Idonea his wife,13 who seems to have been Idonea de Herste 14, whose son Waleran de Herste, or de Monceux, granted all his holding of his fee in Broomhill to Robertsbridge Abbey,15 to whom it was confirmed by his son William.16
13 Add Chart 40790
14 Lord L'Isle and Dudley MSS.60
15 Ibid 45
16 Ibid 82

If the suggestion of William de Monceaux as Idonea's husband is put to one side, as William has been shown to belong to a family unconnected with Sussex, these two commentaries give us:
c1176 Walter de Herste and his son Robert;
c1176-80 Idonea de Herste and her son Robert donating lands in Broomhill;
c 1189 Guy de Mortimer and his wife Idonea granting land in Broomhill;
Waleran de Herste, son and heir of Idonea, sealing as 'Waleran de Monceux' granting land in Broomhill; William son of Waleran confirming the grants.

This doesn't leave a lot of space for the supposed husband of Idonea, Ingelran. See also VCH Cambs Vol 10 Teversham pp 173-178; ' Waleran de Monceaux, Ingram's successor and perhaps brother;'and VCH Essex Vol 4 Little Ongar pp168-174; 'Waleran de Monceux, who was probably brother and successor of Enguerrand'.

Keats-Rohan in DD says under 'de Moncellis, Idonea'
'Coheiress of Waleran father of John. Wife of Ingeran de Monceaux who claimed the inheritance of Juliana Doisnel, granddaughter of John fitz Waleran, in 1199 and mother of Waleran de Monceux of Herstmonceux, Sussex, who had succeeded by 1205.Pipe Roll 5 Henry II, 61-ss

Farrer HKF p 376
In 1199 William de Werbinton and Ingram de Monceaus gave 500 marks for the inheritance late of Juliana wife of William Fitz-Aldelin, whose next heirs they were.16 16. R. de Oblat. 19

There is no suggestion in the claim [R. de Oblat. Vol 1 p19] that Ingelran's claim lies in right of his wife, nor in Farrer's reporting of it, but Keats-Rohan states of Juliana:

'In 1199 her heirs in both the land of John fitz Waleran and the marshal serjeanty held by Robert Doisnel were William of Warberton and Ingelran de Monceux, whose rights derived from his wife Idonea de Monceux', (Farrer, HKF iii, 376). William, the senior heir, and Idonea, were probably descendants of the elder Juliana's first marriage to William of Hastings. Part of the inheritance they shared was five fees at Herstmonceaux and Warberton held of the count of Eu in the Rape of Hastings [K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, "Additions and Corrections to Sanders' Baronies Prosopon, Number 11 (July 2000)]

This obscures the fact that as Farrer says,' In 1166 Hurst (Monceux) and Warbleton, Suss., were held of John count of Eu for the service of 5 knights,9 but the name of the tenant or tenants is not recorded 9 Red Bk. 203.
The division of the holding must have been 1166-1176 [since Walter de Herste was evidently holding in c1176], long before the question of inheritance from the younger Juliana was considered.

Ingelran son of Alan was active in Yorkshire in the middle of the 12th century; in 1191 he owed the crown for his debts to moneylenders but he is generally given a death date of c1199-1204, those being the dates of firstly the Sussex Ingelram's claim for the shared inheritance, and secondly William of Warbleton's claim for the whole.

If he married Idonea after the death of Guy de Mortimer ie after c 1189, a son Waleran would not have been of age to inherit until c 1211, whereas Waleran successfully put in his claim for his share in 1205, and was succeeded by his son William some ten years later.

If on the other hand, Ingelran was the son of Idonea and Walter de Herste, she being the descendant of Juliana, then his claim as her son was perfectly straightforward, and on his dying apparently without issue, his brother Waleran inherited.

However there is no evidence that the inheritance was predicated on Idonea, which would leave Walter de Herste and William de Warbleton as the descendants of Juliana. All that can be said is that Idonea's children reflect their ancestry - Robert for the father of William de Hastings, husband of Juliana daughter of John fitz Waleran, Ingelran for the Monceux connection, Waleran for Juliana's grandfather, and a further son, Manasser may have been named for Manasser Count of Guines who had an interest in Broomhill.[The survey of Kent: documents relating to the survey of the county conducted in 1086; Chapter 9 Thirteenth Century baronies; Colin Swift p249 fn22].

In either scenario, the Monceux name would have come from Idonea herself – while both equate Idonea de Herste with Idonea de Monceux, neither Farrer nor Keats-Rohan comment on the Pipe Roll entry for 5 Henry II, p 61. Keats-Rohan references it, but does not elucidate. Idonea de Moncellis is listed as having paid 5 marks in the Nova Placita et Nove Conventione section – which implies a new holding in her own right; an inheritance of some sort – perhaps Broomhill?

The earliest commentator on the descent of Herstmonceux in the Sussex Archaeological Collections [SAC vol 4, 1851, Rev E. Venables; 'The Castle of Herstmonceux and its Lords'] refrained from speculating on the relationship between Ingelram and Idonea.

The 'Pedigree of Fynes, Dacre and Lennard' which accompanied John E. Ray's 'The Parish Church of All Saints, Herstmonceux, and the Dacre tomb [SAC Vol 58, 1916]. records the marriage of Ingelram de Monceux to Idonea de Herst, but both articles start with the marriage of Drogo de Monceux and Edith daughter of William de Warenne and Gundrada. This has been shown by Keats-Rohan to be incorrect – Edith's second husband was Drogo de Monchy.

If the long-held fantasy of a descent from the Warenne family can be relinquished, is it not possible to re-assess the continuing assertion that Ingelran was the husband of Idonea?

For fuller arguments and references, please see my earlier post 'Early Herstmonceux additions and corrections of 9/12/15.

With best regards
Janette Gallini