Mary of Bedford, Lady of La Sparre
Douglas Richardson
During the course of my research for the forthcoming Plantagenet
Ancestry book, I've determined that John of Lancaster, Duke of
Bedford, younger son of King Henry IV, had two illegitimate children
by an unknown mistress (or mistresses), namely, a son, Richard (named
in his will), and a daughter, Mary. In this period, bastard children
of dukes usually adopted the title of their father (in this case
Bedford) as their surname.
This past week while I was combing through Patent and Close Rolls
volumes, I encountered a reference to otherwise unidentified "Mary de
Bedford," lady of La Sparre (in Aquitaine), who was living in the
early 1460's [References: Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1461-1467
(published 1897), pp.198,212,269,275; Calendar of Close Rolls,
1461-1468 (published 1949), pg.167].
I'm uncertain as to this woman's identity but I presume she is Mary,
the bastard daughter of John of Lancaster, Duke of Bedford. Mary of
Bedford's land holding in Aquitaine must have been an important place,
as I find that Henry Holand, Duke of Exeter, was lord of this same
place in the previous king's reign and used this land holding as part
of his titles in a deed. Henry Holand was not the husband of Mary de
Bedford, however, as he was married to another party until 1472.
If anyone knows any particulars regarding Mary of Bedford, I'd
appreciate knowing them.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
Cyril
>
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> During the course of my research for the forthcoming Plantagenet
> Ancestry book, I've determined that John of Lancaster, Duke of
> Bedford, younger son of King Henry IV, had two illegitimate children
> by an unknown mistress (or mistresses), namely, a son, Richard (named
> in his will), and a daughter, Mary. In this period, bastard children
> of dukes usually adopted the title of their father (in this case
> Bedford) as their surname.
>
> This past week while I was combing through Patent and Close Rolls
> volumes, I encountered a reference to otherwise unidentified "Mary de
> Bedford," lady of La Sparre (in Aquitaine), who was living in the
> early 1460's [References: Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1461-1467
> (published 1897), pp.198,212,269,275; Calendar of Close Rolls,
> 1461-1468 (published 1949), pg.167].
>
> I'm uncertain as to this woman's identity but I presume she is Mary,
> the bastard daughter of John of Lancaster, Duke of Bedford. Mary of
> Bedford's land holding in Aquitaine must have been an important place,
> as I find that Henry Holand, Duke of Exeter, was lord of this same
> place in the previous king's reign and used this land holding as part
> of his titles in a deed. Henry Holand was not the husband of Mary de
> Bedford, however, as he was married to another party until 1472.
First of all, I'm french and I apologize fot my poor English...
Mary "of Bedford" was born abt 1420 and married before 1450 Pierre de
Montferrand, "soudan" de Préchac, lord of Landiras, Portets, etc.
She had a 500 pounds dower, but her father died before the final
payment.
Her husband was granted by the King the barony of Maremne and the toll
(sorry, not sure of the translation) of Hastingues (yes, we've got one
in SW of France). He was also "bayle" ('baillivus') of the same village.
After the battle of Castillon, he refused to make his submission to the
king of France and was beheaded in Bordeaux in 1454.
His widow went back to England.In 1459, the king of England granted her
a 20 pounds settlement per year, for her 2 sons were prisonners in
France.
In 1462, she had a 40 pounds settlement on the port of London.
They had many descendants (3 sons, Thomas, Bertrand and François, who
was lord of Lesparre, and a daughter, Mathilde).
Best regards,
Cyril Delmas-Marsalet
Douglas Richardson
Thank you so much for your helpful and informative post regarding Mary
of Bedford, the illegitimate daughter of John of Lancaster, Duke of
Bedford (died 1435) (son of King Henry IV). As best I can tell,
English secondary sources are silent as to her history, marriage, and
descendants. Your post opens up a whole new line of descendants for
King Henry IV. When you have the opportunity, I'd appreciate it very
much if you could post additional details on Mary's husband, Pierre de
Montferrand, Knt., lord of La Sparre (in Aquitaine) and their
children. Also, can you please identify Pierre de Montferrand's
parentage. I assume Pierre's father is Bertrand de Montferrand, Knt.,
who was baliff of Saugeon in Saintonge, in the 1420's. I show that
Pierre's mother was Elizabeth, daughter and heiress of Margaret
Stratton, an English woman.
The following sources mention Mary of Bedford and her husband, Sir
Pierre de Montferrand:
Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1461-1467 (1897), pp. 198,212,269,275.
Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1452-1461 (1910), pg. 487.
Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1447-1454 (1941), pg. 170.
Calendar of Close Rolls, 1461-1468 (1949), pg. 167.
Again, thanks so much for your help, Cyril.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
Cyril <cdel...@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message news:<3DA9C296...@wanadoo.fr>...
Leo van de Pas
This Mary is recorded in Cahiers de Saint Louis, page 834, as "Mary bastard
of Lancaster".
SOURCE "My Lord of Bedford" by E. Williams, London 1963
I will send you a file with the descendants recorded in Cahiers de Saint
Louis. Sadly, I cannot send this to everyone on gen-med.
In the same source the illegitimate son is called
Richard bastard of Lancaster. However, it seems strange that the
illegitimate children of the Duke of Bedford are called bastard of
Lancaster, while his brother's (Humphrey Duke of Gloucester) is called
Antigone bastard of Gloucester.
Hope this helps.
Leo van de Pas
Douglas Richardson
> Dear Douglas
> This Mary is recorded in Cahiers de Saint Louis, page 834, as "Mary bastard
> of Lancaster".
>
> SOURCE "My Lord of Bedford" by E. Williams, London 1963
>
> I will send you a file with the descendants recorded in Cahiers de Saint
> Louis. Sadly, I cannot send this to everyone on gen-med.
>
> In the same source the illegitimate son is called
> Richard bastard of Lancaster. However, it seems strange that the
> illegitimate children of the Duke of Bedford are called bastard of
> Lancaster, while his brother's (Humphrey Duke of Gloucester) is called
> Antigone bastard of Gloucester.
> Hope this helps.
> Leo van de Pas
>
Dear Leo ~
John of Lancaster, Duke of Bedford's illegitimate son, Richard, was
styled Richard "the bastard of Bedford" in his lifetime [see Calendar
of Close Rolls, 1435-1441 (published 1937), pp. 252-254]. Richard's
illegitimate sister, Mary, is likewise called "Mary of Bedford" in the
records. The illegitimate children of English dukes took their
father's title as their surname.
Cyril
>
> Dear Cyril ~
>
> Thank you so much for your helpful and informative post regarding Mary
> of Bedford, the illegitimate daughter of John of Lancaster, Duke of
> Bedford (died 1435) (son of King Henry IV). As best I can tell,
> English secondary sources are silent as to her history, marriage, and
> descendants. Your post opens up a whole new line of descendants for
> King Henry IV. When you have the opportunity, I'd appreciate it very
> much if you could post additional details on Mary's husband, Pierre de
> Montferrand, Knt., lord of La Sparre (in Aquitaine) and their
> children. Also, can you please identify Pierre de Montferrand's
> parentage. I assume Pierre's father is Bertrand de Montferrand, Knt.,
> who was baliff of Saugeon in Saintonge, in the 1420's. I show that
> Pierre's mother was Elizabeth, daughter and heiress of Margaret
> Stratton, an English woman.
Dear group,
Pierre de Montferrand was the son of Bertrand, baron de Montferrand et
Langoiran (ca 1380-ca 1446) by Isabeau de Preyssac alias de la Trau (ca
1390- will 7/08/1437), lady of la Trau, Landiras and Uzeste. Isabeau was
daughter of Arnaud-Bernard de Preyssac, "soudan" of la Trau, by
Marguerite de Landiras (she married Arnaud-Bernard before 1391, and
married 2dly before 1413 Pons, lord of Castillon and died 1422/1437.
Marguerite was heiress of Landiras and daughter of John de Stratton,
connétable de Bordeaux (ancestry unknown to me), died 1394/1400, who
married before july 1366 Isabeau de Saint-Symphorien, heiress of
Landiras (a cousin of both the Grailly family and Pope Clément V).
Pierre's sister was Isabeau, who married François, baron de Gramont
(nota : one of their daughters, Marie de Gramont, married in 1454 Robin
Petitloch, sénéchal des Landes, lord of Sauveterre and Clermont, who
died 1459/1464 and was born in Scotland. I'm very interested by any
informations about him.
this is a 5 generations descent from Pierre de Montferrand and Marie de
Bedford ("N" is for "naissance", birth, "D" is for "death") (33 is the
frecnh code for "Gironde"
de MONTFERRAND Pierre, (N : ca ../../1415 D : ../07/1454 ) Soudan de
Préchac, 33, Sr de Landiras, 33, Portets, 33
xde BEDFORD Marie (N : ca ../../1420 D : > ../../1462 )
| ...de MONTFERRAND Thomas Sr d'Aiguille
| ...de MONTFERRAND Mathilde
| ...de MONTFERRAND Bertrand Sr de Montbadon
| ...de MONTFERRAND François, (N : ca ../../1440 D : ca ../../1501 )
Soudan de La Trau (Préchac, 33), Baron d'Uzeste (33) et Portets
| ...xCARRION Yolande (N : ca ../../1450 M : ../../1470 )
| ...| ...de MONTFERRAND Catherine
| ...| ...de MONTFERRAND Jeanne
| ...| ...de MONTFERRAND Pierre (N : ca ../../1469 )
| ...| ...de MONTFERRAND Thomas,(N : ca ../../1470 D : 1523/1540 )
Soudan de La Trau (Préchac, 33), Baron d'Uzeste et Portets
| ...| ...| ...de MONTFERRAND Françoise (D : > ../../1540 )
| ...| ...| ...de MONTFERRAND Pierre (D : > 20/05/1540 ) Soudan de La
Trau, Sr-baron de Landiras
| ...| ...| ...de MONTFERRAND Gaston (D : > ../../1540 )
| ...| ...| ...de MONTFERRAND Jeanne
| ...| ...| ...xde PORTEPAIN Jean (M : < ../../1540 ) Sr de La Salle du
Ciron en Pujols ? (33)
| ...| ...| ...de MONTFERRAND Jeanne (D : > ../../1540 )
| ...| ...| ...de MONTFERRAND Etienne
| ...| ...| ...de MONTFERRAND Jean, (N : ca ../../1505 D : 1573/1580 )
Soudan de La Trave (Préchac, 33), sr-baron de Landiras (33)
| ...| ...| ...xde RAYER? Jacquette (N : ca ../../1520 )
| ...| ...| ...| ...de MONTFERRAND Barbe
| ...| ...| ...| ...de MONTFERRAND Marie (D : > ../../1581 )
| ...| ...| ...| ...xde FAVEROLLES Bernard (N : ca ../../1540 ) Sr de
La Planche
| ...| ...| ...| ...de MONTFERRAND Catherine
| ...| ...| ...| ...xde CANTELOUP Antoine (N : ca ../../1540 ) Sr du
Brana
| ...| ...| ...| ...de MONTFERRAND Gallienne
| ...| ...| ...| ...de MONTFERRAND Gaston (N : ca ../../1540 D :
../../1597 ) Soudan de La Trau, Sr-baron de Landiras et Cagès
| ...| ...| ...| ...xde LESTONNAC Jeanne (N : ca ../../1566 M :
12/09/1573 D : ../../1640 )
| ...| ...| ...| ...de MONTFERRAND Marguerite?, N° 17881 (N : ca
../../1550 D : < ../../1595 )
| ...| ...| ...| ...xde SENTOUT François? (N : ca ../../1540 M :
../../1573 D : ca ../../1595 ) Sr de Sentout, Jurat, Ecuyer
| ...| ...| ...de MONTFERRAND Jean, (N : ca ../../1510 D : ../../1561 )
Baron de Portets (33)
| ...| ...| ...xde GRIGNOLS Marguerite (N : ca ../../1520 D : <
../../1561 )
| ...| ...| ...| ...de MONTFERRAND Jacquette (D : < ../../1582 )
| ...| ...| ...| ...xde la CROPTE François (N : ca ../../1540 ) Sr de
La Ménardie
| ...| ...| ...| ...de MONTFERRAND? Isabeau?,(N : ca ../../1540 D : ca
1626/1627 )
| ...| ...| ...| ...xde FONTEBRIDE Raymond? (N : ca ../../1530 D : >
../../1578 ) Ecuyer
Tim Powys-Lybbe
royala...@msn.com (Douglas Richardson) wrote:
<snip>
> The illegitimate children of English dukes took their father's title as
> their surname.
As in the Beaufort children of the duke of Lancaster?
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a patchwork of bygones: http://powys.org
Douglas Richardson
> In message <5cf47a19.02101...@posting.google.com>
> royala...@msn.com (Douglas Richardson) wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > The illegitimate children of English dukes took their father's title as
> > their surname.
>
> As in the Beaufort children of the duke of Lancaster?
Dear Tim ~
You've made a good point. Have you considered that the Beaufort
children might be the exception to the normal custom of what surname
illegitimate children adopted, especially since their parents
eventually married and they themselves were legitimized?
Also, do you know what surname the other bastard children of dukes in
this period adopted? Please cite examples and give sources.
José Verheecke
"Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com> schreef in bericht
news:5cf47a19.02101...@posting.google.com...
While we're at it:I saw a note in Genealogist's Magazine 19:6(june 1978),212
about
"Henry V's illegitimate niece":
Isabel/Elisabeth of Lancaster +in France 1443
x 13.5.1432 Louis d'Aspremont,vte d'Orthe [although,in Héraldique et
Généalogie,1981:159,
generation XVIII it's said he x 1410],parents of
Louis II + bef. 1486
x contract 25.1.1452 Agnes de Foix-Béarn(fa.Jean -a legitimated member of
this familiy- x Angline de
Miossans),parents of
(1)Marie/Jeanne x 1470 Jean de Pardaillan,sgr de Gondrin -->La
Chesnaie-Desbois XV.434
(2)Cathérine x Jean de Montesquiou test 14.7.1503 -->La Chesnaie-Desbois
XIV.210
(grand-parents of Jean II x 15.7.1528 Gabrielle de Villemur -->Cahiers de
St.Louis 10:756)
(3)Pierre,vte d'Orthe x contract 8.2.1509 Quitterie de Gramont(fa.Roger
>Schwennicke X:69),with
a large number of descendants -->Héraldique et Généalogie
(1977):120,248,361,(1978)43,
Cahiers de St.Louis 22/23:1813
?Any connection here with John of Lancaster,duke of Bedford,mentioned by
Douglas
Richardson?
--
José Verheecke
jose.ve...@pandora.be
Tony Ingham
Your pathetic attempt to paint yourself out of the corner is unwarranted.
You made the sweeping generalisation. Tim has quietly, if a little cheekily, responded. Now you
have the audacity to ask him to go to the trouble of doing the research which may or may not give
you an 80-90% hit-rate.
I sincerely hope Tim ignores your prissy challenge and that you wipe up the egg which must be
dripping from your face.
Best always
Tony Ingham
Renia
Goodness me! That's a tall order and several hours' worth of research
you're asking for.
Renia
Cyril
The viscounts of Orthe were an important family originated from
Peyrehorade, East of Bayonne and South of Bordeaux, and where their
castle was built (named "Aspremont"). They where faithful to the Dukes
of Aquitaine and married with distant members of the royal family :
- Loup-Garcie, vicomte d'Orthe (1146-1212) married about 1175 "Adélaïde
d'Anjou" (who died 1215), saod to be a daughter of William, count of
Poitou (1136-1163), brother of king Henry II.
- their son Raymond-Arnaud, vicomte d'Orthe (d. 1221) married Ricarde
"de Cognac" (born abt 1175, died aft. 1218). Who is she ?
- Loup-Raymond, vicomte d'Orthe (d. 1244) married abt 1230 Philippa "de
Cognac" (born abt. 1210, died 1262), who is said to be daughter of
Philippe, bastard son of king Richard I by Almodis de Cognac (?).
- Their son Raymond, vicomte d'Orthe (d. 1293/1298) married Marie de
Lusignan, daughter of Hugues by Isabeau d'Angoulême.
- Another son, Arnaud-Loup, vicomte d'Orthe (died 1300) married Amicie
de Montfort (died 1321), said to be daughter of Simon by Aliénor
d'Angleterre
- Next interesting marriage came more than a century later, when Louis,
vicomte d'Orthe (abt 1403-1451) married in 1432 Isabeau de
Lancastre-Somerset (d. 1443/1448), said to be bastard daughter of John
(ca 1372-1410), count of Somerset.
The main problem is that proffs of these marriages are very weak. The
archives of the Orthe-Aspremont family disapeared, only surviving
through some notes by a 18th priest, l'abbé de Vergez.
He copied some acts from a cartulary of the Cagnotte abbey, in the lands
of the viscounts of Orthe. So "caveat".
Any informations are very welcome !
Cyril Delmas-Marsalet
Douglas Richardson
Perhaps you should read my post to Tim once again. I have included it
below. I didn't quarrel with Tim's post, indeed, I agreed he made a
VALID point. I merely suggested the nominals of the Beaufort children
were handled differently because their parents married and because the
Beaufort children were subsequently legitimized by Act of Parliament.
I know of no other bastard child of a duke that falls into the same
category.
As for my request that Tim provide his sources, good scholarship rests
on proper documentation. I have secured documentation for the
surnames used by all the other ducal bastards, with the exception of
two of the female bastards, Antigone, wife of Henry de Gray, 2nd Earl
of Tankarville, and Tacine, wife of Reynold de Grey, Lord Grey of
Wilton. As such, I made no sweeping generalization. My observation
that ducal bastards adopted their father's title as their surname was
based on my examination of original contemporary records. If you
disagree with this observation, please let me know and, if possible,
provide your documentation.
As for Tim's post, I found nothing whatsover "cheekily" in Tim's
comments. Tim made an important point of clarification which was both
helpful and appreciated. I value his contributions and hope he
continues to share his comments on the newsgroup as he sees fit. I
have the highest regard for Tim.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
nugg...@hotkey.net.au (Tony Ingham) wrote in message news:<3DAD4650...@hotkey.net.au>...
Tim Powys-Lybbe
> Tim Powys-Lybbe <t...@powys.org> wrote in message
> news:<7976b28...@southfrm.demon.co.uk>...
> > In message <5cf47a19.02101...@posting.google.com>
> > royala...@msn.com (Douglas Richardson) wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > > The illegitimate children of English dukes took their father's title
> > > as their surname.
This proposition has the appearance of a "law", that is a statement that
claims no contradictories.
> >
> > As in the Beaufort children of the duke of Lancaster?
>
> Dear Tim ~
>
> You've made a good point. Have you considered that the Beaufort
> children might be the exception to the normal custom of what surname
> illegitimate children adopted,
This is saying that the above statement was merely intended as a rule,
that is one that is true in the majority of cases. But it lacked the
critical adverb of "mostly".
> especially since their parents eventually married and they themselves
> were legitimized?
This is irrelevant to the name that they were known by until they were
"legitimised". The legitimisation by the crown (CP XII/1, p. 41, note
(a) ) had nothing to do with their naming. Or did it?
> Also, do you know what surname the other bastard children of dukes in
> this period adopted?
Why this request?
I do not have to produce any more evidence. You uttered a "law" in the
form of a universal statement. All it needs is one contradictory true
statement to make that law false.
Similarly the law "Man is mortal" only needs one immortal man to
disprove it.
> Please cite examples and give sources.
Come off it! The correct response was, of course, "oops".
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
and the best to all of us logically legitimate thinkers,
Stewart, Peter
> From: royala...@msn.com [mailto:royala...@msn.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, 16 October 2002 17:47
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: Mary of Bedford, Lady of La Sparre
>
>
> Tim Powys-Lybbe <t...@powys.org> wrote in message
> news:<7976b28...@southfrm.demon.co.uk>...
> > In message <5cf47a19.02101...@posting.google.com>
> > royala...@msn.com (Douglas Richardson) wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > > The illegitimate children of English dukes took their
> > > father's title as their surname.
> >
>
> Dear Tim ~
>
> You've made a good point. Have you considered that the Beaufort
> children might be the exception to the normal custom of what surname
> eventually married and they themselves were legitimized?
>
The Beaufort's weren't altogether exceptional - their surname was taken from
a title of their father, just not his English ducal one. John of Gaunt was
also (from 1361 by right of his first wife through whom he also received his
rights to Lancaster) seigneur of Beaufort in France.
Peter Stewart
Stewart, Peter
What a sottise, indeed a veritable "Moody" blue - I meant to write "The
Beauforts weren't altogether exceptional", or the "The Beauforts' surname
wasn't" etc. I will certainly punish my fingers when I can think of a
suitable chastisement.
Peter Stewart
Tony Ingham
Thank you for your (a)good, (b)bad, (c) indifferent post Select one of the three categories.
I've said all I'm saying on that matter and thanks for taking the time to respond to my mailing. (a nod
is as good as a wink to a blind man)
Douglas Richardson
Tim Powys-Lybbe <t...@powys.org> wrote in message news:<49d3868...@southfrm.demon.co.uk>...
> In message <5cf47a19.02101...@posting.google.com>
> royala...@msn.com (Douglas Richardson) wrote:
>
> > Tim Powys-Lybbe <t...@powys.org> wrote in message
> > news:<7976b28...@southfrm.demon.co.uk>...
>
> > > In message <5cf47a19.02101...@posting.google.com>
> > > royala...@msn.com (Douglas Richardson) wrote:
> > >
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > > > The illegitimate children of English dukes took their father's title
> > > > as their surname.
>
> This proposition has the appearance of a "law", that is a statement that
> claims no contradictories.
>
Appearance of "a law"? Surely you jest. Not hardly. Custom or
practice perhaps; law is an exceptionally strong word that I would not
use, nor did I. Please refrain from putting words in my mouth (or
post) which aren't there.
> > >
> > > As in the Beaufort children of the duke of Lancaster?
> >
> > Dear Tim ~
> >
> > You've made a good point. Have you considered that the Beaufort
> > children might be the exception to the normal custom of what surname
> > illegitimate children adopted,
>
> This is saying that the above statement was merely intended as a rule,
> that is one that is true in the majority of cases. But it lacked the
> critical adverb of "mostly".
>
> > especially since their parents eventually married and they themselves
> > were legitimized?
>
> This is irrelevant to the name that they were known by until they were
> "legitimised". The legitimisation by the crown (CP XII/1, p. 41, note
> (a) ) had nothing to do with their naming. Or did it?
The four illegitimate children of John of Gaunt were called Beaufort
in the Act of Parliament which legitimized them. I have seen a
transcript of their legitimization. As best I know, their
legitimization had nothing to do with the surname they adopted. The
use of the surname, Beaufort, predated their legitimization.
Incidentally, the term used in the Act of Parliament was
"legitimated," not "legitimized." I am unclear of the difference
between the two terms. If anyone knows the difference, I would
certainly appreciate knowing.
Patricia Junkin
Ivo de Veteriponte b. ca. 1180, d. 1239 married Isabel de Lancestre, I
believe, the daughter of William de Lancestre and Gundreda. "To all sons of
Holy Mother Church who shall see of hear this letter Ivo de Veteriponte
greeting. Know ye that guided by charity, for the safety of my soul and for
the souls of Hugh de Morvill and William de Veteriponte my father and
Matilda de Veteriponte my mother and Robert my brother and Isabel de
Lancestre my wife and all my ancestors..."
Is this the same family and is there additonal Lancastre information in this
article?
Thank you.
Pat
----------
>From: Cyril <cdel...@wanadoo.fr>
>To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
>Subject: Re: Isabeau de Lancastre
>Date: Wed, Oct 16, 2002, 12:47 PM
Douglas Richardson
Since last posting on the matter of what surnames ducal bastards
employed, I realized there is another bastard who, like the Beaufort
children, does not fit the observed pattern. She is Katherine
"Plantagenet," illegitimate daughter of King Richard III, formerly
Duke of Gloucester. She is so styled as Plantagenet in a grant which
King Richard III made to her on her marriage to William Herbert.
However, as with the Beaufort children, Katherine is in a unique
situation, as her use of the surname, Plantagenet, followed her
father's elevation to the throne. In this instance, her father was no
longer a duke when Katherine was called Plantagenet. Curiously,
Richard III's other bastard falls into the normal pattern, he being
styled John of Gloucester in all records I have found for him.
Interestingly, these records date from the period John's father was
king and not duke.
I trust this clarifies (or muddles) things, as the case may be.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
nugg...@hotkey.net.au (Tony Ingham) wrote in message news:<3DAE2085...@hotkey.net.au>...
William Addams Reitwiesner
>Dear Tim, Tony, etc.
>
>Since last posting on the matter of what surnames ducal bastards
>employed, I realized there is another bastard who, like the Beaufort
>children, does not fit the observed pattern. She is Katherine
>"Plantagenet," illegitimate daughter of King Richard III, formerly
>Duke of Gloucester. She is so styled as Plantagenet in a grant which
>King Richard III made to her on her marriage to William Herbert.
>However, as with the Beaufort children, Katherine is in a unique
>situation, as her use of the surname, Plantagenet, followed her
>father's elevation to the throne. In this instance, her father was no
>longer a duke when Katherine was called Plantagenet. Curiously,
>Richard III's other bastard falls into the normal pattern, he being
>styled John of Gloucester in all records I have found for him.
>Interestingly, these records date from the period John's father was
>king and not duke.
>
>I trust this clarifies (or muddles) things, as the case may be.
Katherine's first cousin Arthur, Viscount Lisle, also had the surname
Plantagenet, though he could not have been born while his father (Edward
IV) was still Duke of York.
My guess is that the use of the "Plantagenet" surname by these two was
related to their grandfather's adoption of that hame as a surname, in about
1448 [CP I:183 (c)].
William Addams Reitwiesner
wr...@erols.com
Tony Ingham
Sorry to use this means of gaining your attention.
You must have overlooked my message yesterday which was prompted by your mailing of Wed, 28 Aug 2002
02:35:17 -0600 entitled :
CP Addition: Elizabeth Heron, widow of John Heron, of Ford
In case you did read it, and due to your distraction with investigating whether DSH and PS are separated
siamese twins, I thought I'd give you a memory jog.
Here is my reply to your message..............
Dear Douglas,
I wonder which of the references accompanying your snippet on ELIZABETH
HERON of the HERON FAMILY gave you the impression that John Heron, husband of Elizabeth Heron, was of
Chillington?
As you so clearly stated in your mailing of 16 Oct 2002 10:50:24 -0700 on
the subject of Re: Mary of Bedford, Lady of La Sparre that :-
"As for my request that Tim provide his sources, good scholarship rests
on proper documentation."
I can now see the value of providing sources.
The only reference (re. Chillingham) I have come up with so far is :
Plantagenet Ancestry of Seventeenth-Century Colonists by David Faris, 2nd
edition pub NEHGS 1999.
Perhaps one of your references below is the basis for whatever appeared in
PA2.
In the interest of good scholarship,
Tony Ingham
.................
and the original references
"References:
H.S.P. 16 (1881): 233-234 (1563/4 Vis. Yorkshire) (Ogle pedigree:
".... Heron nupta Johanni Heron de Wetynam"). Surtees Soc. 144
(1930): 55 (c. 1480-1500 Vis. North). C.P. 6 (1926): 488-489 (sub
Heron). Wedgwood 1 (1936): 446-447. Ancient Deeds - Series A (List
and Index Soc., vol. 151) (1978), pg. 161. VCH Cambridge 8 (1982):
32."
Looking forward to your reply
Tony Ingham
Douglas Richardson wrote:
> Dear Tim, Tony, etc.
>
> Since last posting on the matter of what surnames ducal bastards
> employed, I realized there is another bastard who, like the Beaufort
> children, does not fit the observed pattern. She is Katherine
>
SNIP, SNIP, SNIP
Douglas Richardson
Thank you for your good post. I've recently reviewed the literature
on Sir Arthur Plantagenet, Viscount Lisle, to acquaint myself with his
history. Below is a copy of the information regarding Arthur
Plantagenet as it will appeared in the soon to be released book,
Plantagenet Ancestry.
It is presently believed that Sir Arthur was born a bit before his
father, King Edward IV, married Elizabeth Wydville. He was evidently
initially known as Arthur Waite, he allegedly taking his surname from
his birth mother, a certain Elizabeth Waite, about whom virtually
nothing is known. I have not seen the actual documents which claim
Sir Arthur was known as Arthur Waite as a child. Some time during the
reign of King Henry VIII, he surfaced in the records as a grown adult
and at that point he was called Arthur Plantagenet. Sir Arthur would
not be a ducal bastard, as his father was King of England at the time
of his birth. His use of the surname, Plantagenet, is consistent with
his bastard first cousin, Katherine Plantagenet, wife of William
Herbert, who was daughter of King Richard III.
I have cited the sources I used to create this account. If anyone has
anything helpful to add to this material, I'd appreciate hearing from
them.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
l. ARTHUR PLANTAGENET, K.G., Viscount Lisle, King’s Spear,
Esquire of the Body, Vice-Admiral of England, Lord Deputy of Calais,
born say 1462/4. He married (1st) on or before 13 Nov. 1511 Elizabeth
Grey, widow of Edmund Dudley, Esq., and daughter and heiress of Edward
Grey, Knt., Viscount Lisle, by Elizabeth, daughter of John Talbot,
Viscount Lisle. They had three daughters, Frances (wife of John
Basset), Elizabeth, and Bridget. He married (2nd) in 1529 Honor
Grenville, widow of John Basset, Knt. (died 31 Jan. 1528), and
daughter of Thomas Grenville, Knt., by his 1st wife, Isabel, daughter
of Otes Gilbert, Knt. They had no issue. SIR ARTHUR PLANTAGENET,
Viscount Lisle, died in the Tower of London 3 Mar. 1542. His widow
Honor was buried at Logan, Cornwall 30 Apr. 1566.
References:
G.F. Beltz, Memorials of the Most Noble Order of the Garter (1841),
pg. clxxii. H.S.P. 2 (1870): 74-75 (1619 Vis. Leicester) (Gray
pedigree: “Elizab. [Gray] Nupta Edm. Dudley postea Arthur
Plantagenet”). H.S.P. 16 (1881): 308-310 (1563/4 Vis.
Yorkshire) (Talbot pedigree: “Elsabeth [Talbot] doughter & sole
heyre [1] = Edmond Dudley on of the Prevy Consell to King Henry 7th.,
[2]= Arthur Plantagenet bastard son to Edward IV. 2 husband”).
List of Early Chancery Proceedings 5 (1912): 288,358,465,472.473; 6
(1922): 109,134. Cal. of Ancient Deeds – Series B Pt. 3 (List &
Index Soc., vol. 113) (1975): B.10780, B.12180. Ancient Deeds Series
BB (List & Index Soc., vol. 137) (1977), pp. 80-81,83,90. M.S. Byrne
The Lisle Letters (1981). Exchequer Ancient Deeds – DD Series
(List & Index Soc., vol. 200) (1983), pp. 193,207. C. Given-Wilson &
A. Curteis, Royal Bastards of Medieval England (1984), pp.
158,161-174.
reitw...@stop.mail-abuse.org (William Addams Reitwiesner) wrote in message news:<3daf339...@news.erols.com>...
Annie Natalelli-Waloszek
posts on the chateau de Monchy-Humières, it was for a while property
of the family of the duc of Lasparre, Antoine Grammont, who eventually*
went broke & sold it... are you curious about the linking of the line to the
English La Sparres? I am, if you know...
"40. Louis Antoine Armand Grammont duc de LASPARRE, living in Paris & residing permenantly at Toulouse,
since october 1788... then there was the REVOLUTION de 1789...
he made the mistake of visting relatives in Toulouse for a bit too long, & a neighbor, Citoyen Clèment,
on 18 feb 1793, wen to the District of Compiègne to inform them that (governement of the Directoire),
Lasparre had émigrated, like many nobles taking flight to save their capital & their heads, in foreign lands;
The governement was on the point of seizing his property & furniture, when he returned...He died in 1795...
"41. Antoine de Grammont, the father of Louis, inherited upon his son's decease sp; unfortunately, his creditors
forced him to sell the property... M Lasparre was the last seigneur de Monchy... he sold most of it to
citizen Vandermacq, resident of Versailles by a contract passed on 27 messidor, year VIII, before Me Gibé &
a collegue notaire de Paris.
The other portion of the property was sold next day, to M Jean-François Baucheron de Lavauverte, resident
of Paris... this portion included the right to dismantle, stone by stone, more than half the Chateau de Monchy,
the right wing of which the Marechal d'Humières was so proud, & the front entryway, were prey to the pioche,
to build another small château on the second portion of the lands, at Baugy... by this division, Baugy Chateau
actually had more lands, but those of Monchy retained the round tower built by Hugues the great...
It's interesting to note that among the creditors pressing M de Grammont, were a nomber of feodal promises
such as rentes to the convent of Monchy & other such... this is a bit in contradiction with their own laws annuling such
arrangements, but what the heck, for a few sacks of wheat....The two buyers made some excellent deals & were able
to sell the property a few years later & considerable profit."
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>