Montgomery Matters: parentage of Elizabeth de Eglinton
John P. Ravilious
Hello All,
Virtually all printed accounts of the Montgomery family (later
Earls of Eglinton) give Elizabeth de Eglinton as (1) daughter of
Sir Hugh de Eglinton by a wife, Giles/Egidia Stewart, and (2)
wife of John Montgomery (of Eglinton, de jure uxoris) and mother
of Sir John Montgomery of Eglinton (d. ca. 1428). The last
matter, as to her son, is correct, but the other two
identifications are erroneous.
As stated in Scots Peerage with regard to Elizabeth de
Eglinton, 'She has been stated (cf. Exch. Rolls, iv. cxclv) to
be Sir Hugh's daughter by Egidia Stewart, but the dates will not
admit of this... She must have been a child of his earlier
marriage with Agnes More, which took place before 1348...' [1].
Egidia Stewart's first husband, Sir James Lindsay, died ca. 1357,
but before 11 Nov. 1358. The dispensation for her marriage to
Sir Hugh de Eglinton, granted by Pope Urban V at Avignon,
11 Kal. March [19 Feb.] 1362/3, appears to be post-nuptial:
' To Hugh de Eglynton, knight, and Egidia de Lyndesay,
damsel, of the diocese of Glasgow. Dispensation, on petition
of John, king of the French, to intermarry, notwithstanding
that Hugh has cohabited with a woman related to Egidia in
the third degree of kindred. ' [2]
As to the marriage of Elizabeth de Eglinton, Andrew B. W.
MacEwen has proven (publication pending) that Sir Alexander
de Montgomery was the husband of Elizabeth, and the father
of Sir John de Montgomery (d. ca. 1428) by her. If the
Douglas marriage of Alexander de Montgomery mentioned in
SP III:427 ever took place, it has no genealogical impact as
Sir John de Montgomery was clearly the son of Elizabeth de
Eglinton. The two Johns de Montgomery are actually one
individual, being best known for the benefits of his
participation in the battle of Otterburn (1388).
1) Agnes Mure = Sir Hugh = 2) Giles
I de Eglinton Stewart
I ( she m. 1stly
I Sir James Lindsay;
I 3rdly Sir James
Sir Alexander = Elizabeth Douglas of Dalkeith)
Montgomery I de Eglinton
___________I________________
I I I
Sir John Alexander Hugh
Cheers,
John *
NOTES
[1] SP III:428, sub Montgomerie, Earl of Eglinton.
[2] Bliss and Tremlow, CPL IV:87.
* John P. Ravilious
WJho...@aol.com
writes:
<< As to the marriage of Elizabeth de Eglinton, Andrew B. W.
MacEwen has proven (publication pending) that Sir Alexander
de Montgomery was the husband of Elizabeth, and the father
of Sir John de Montgomery (d. ca. 1428) by her. >>
Is this the same Alexander Montgomery who also married Margaret Douglas,
illegimate daughter of William, 1st Earl Douglas (William d May 1384)
Thanks
Will Johnson
John P. Ravilious
The Douglas marriage is doubtful; the Scots Peerage account (SP
III:427 or 428, I don't have it to hand at this time) states, as I
recall, that there is no evidence for it, and discusses the problems
with the identification of a daughter of that Earl of Douglas as a
wife of Montgomery (John or Alexander). I don't believe there is any
support for it even as a conjecture at this point.
Cheers,
John
On Feb 19, 4:46 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 2/18/07 9:42:25 AM Pacific Standard Time, ther...@aol.com
Tim Powys-Lybbe
> Dear Will,
>
> The Douglas marriage is doubtful; the Scots Peerage account (SP
> III:427 or 428, I don't have it to hand at this time) states, as I
> recall, that there is no evidence for it, and discusses the problems
> with the identification of a daughter of that Earl of Douglas as a
> wife of Montgomery (John or Alexander). I don't believe there is any
> support for it even as a conjecture at this point.
SP III, 427, has:
"According to the Memorials he [Alexander Montgomerie] married 'a
daughter of William, first Earl of Douglas, and his wife Margaret,
daughter of the Earl of Dunbar and March,' but as William, Earl of
Douglas (see that title) had no such wife nor daughter, the name of
Alexander Mongomerie's wife remains unknown."
'Memorials' is 'Memorials of the Montgomeries, Earls of Eglinton' by Sir
William Fraser, publication date not given.
> On Feb 19, 4:46 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
> > In a message dated 2/18/07 9:42:25 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> > ther...@aol.com writes:
> >
> > << As to the marriage of Elizabeth de Eglinton, Andrew B. W.
> > MacEwen has proven (publication pending) that Sir Alexander
> > de Montgomery was the husband of Elizabeth, and the father
> > of Sir John de Montgomery (d. ca. 1428) by her. >>
> >
> > Is this the same Alexander Montgomery who also married Margaret
> > Douglas, illegimate daughter of William, 1st Earl Douglas (William d
> > May 1384)
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
Gordon Johnson
> In message of 19 Feb, "John P. Ravilious" <the...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Dear Will,
>>
>> The Douglas marriage is doubtful; the Scots Peerage account (SP
>>III:427 or 428, I don't have it to hand at this time) states, as I
>>recall, that there is no evidence for it, and discusses the problems
>>with the identification of a daughter of that Earl of Douglas as a
>>wife of Montgomery (John or Alexander). I don't believe there is any
>>support for it even as a conjecture at this point.
>
>
> SP III, 427, has:
>
> "According to the Memorials he [Alexander Montgomerie] married 'a
> daughter of William, first Earl of Douglas, and his wife Margaret,
> daughter of the Earl of Dunbar and March,' but as William, Earl of
> Douglas (see that title) had no such wife nor daughter, the name of
> Alexander Mongomerie's wife remains unknown."
>
> 'Memorials' is 'Memorials of the Montgomeries, Earls of Eglinton' by Sir
> William Fraser, publication date not given.
>
marriage claim is porobably from the "History of the Houses of Douglas
and Angus" by David Hume of Godscroft (1644). The more recent edn.
(Scottish Text Society, 1996) has the reprinted and updated text saying
of William, 1st earl of Douglas:
"Anent his mariage, we find that by succession of time he had thrie
wives; the first was Margaret Dumbar doughter to the earl of Dumbar and
Merche; by whom he begat twa sonnes , James slain at Otterburne, and
Archibald callit the Grim, lord of Galloway and efter Earle of Douglas.
In second mariage he had Margaret Mar, doughter to Donald or Duncane
earle of Mar, and efter heretrix of that earldome....... Efter the death
of this Margaret Mar, William earle of Douglas in his third mariage did
take to wife Margaret Stewart doughter to Thomas Stewart earle of Angus,
and efter him heretrix of the house..."
Gordon Johnson.
John P. Ravilious
Unfortunately, Hume of Godscroft's account of at least the
marital history of William, Earl of Douglas (d. 1384) is severely
flawed.
1. There is no record of a daughter Margaret of Patrick, Earl of
March
(d. ca. 1368). His successor George Dunbar, Earl of March (d.
1420)
had no known daughter Margaret, and being born ca. 1340
himself
could hardly have been the grandfather of James Douglas, the
slain
hero of Otterburn (born say 1355-1360). More to the point,
James
Douglas was styled Earl of Mar, being the
heir to his mother Margaret, Countess of Mar (see Complete
Peerage
and Scots Peerage accounts to this effect).
2. Archibald Douglas 'the Grim', 3rd Earl of Douglas (succeeding
the
aforementioned James in 1388) was not William's son and James'
brother, but rather the first cousin of William. He was the
illegitimate son of Sir James Douglas 'the Good', the well-
known compatriot of Robert _the Bruce_ . He was certainly not
a brother of Earl James: the only known sibling of James was
Isabel Douglas, wife of (1) Sir Malcolm Drummond and (2)
Alexander Stewart, Earl of Mar (de jure uxoris),
illegitimate son of Alexander Stewart, Earl of Buchan, best
(or worst) known as 'The Wolf of Badenoch'.
3. The first and only known marriage of William, 2nd Earl of
Douglas was to Margaret, Countess of Mar. He had a
relationship with Margaret Stewart, Countess of Angus,
by whom he fathered George Douglas, the first Douglas
Earl of Angus. That George was illegitimate is well
beyond question (see Scots Peerage, sub Douglas, Earl
of Angus, and presumably also Complete Peerage).
Cheers,
John
On Jun 28, 11:22 am, Gordon Johnson <gor...@kinhelp.co.uk> wrote:
> Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote: