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Was Roger Kelke father of Alice Kelke who married Robert Tirwhit the same person as Roger Kelke m. _____ Leyburne and was father of William Kelke?
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Jordan Vandenberg
Jun 9, 2017, 11:14:06 PM6/9/17
to
Good day,
I have a question about Roger Kelke who was father to Alice Kelke (wife of Robert Tirwhit) that I was hoping someone would be able to answer.
Is this Roger Kelke the same person as the Roger Kelke who married ______ Leyburne (daughter of Henry Leyburne) and had a son William Kelke?
They seem as though they would be the same age. There are also a number of fines where the Tirwhit's and the Kelke's are found together from around the same period.
http://medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/search.php?s=1&surname=kelke&given=&place=&after=&before=&county=&finecase=&finefile=&finenumber=
CP 25/1/144/150, number 5: (1395)
Persons: William Kelke; Robert Tirwhit'; Nicholas Tournay; Thomas Ruston'; Joan
Places: Magna Stepyng'; Frisby [Lincolnshire]
CP 25/1/144/151, number 33: (1401)
Persons: William Kelke; Richard Tirwhit; Robert Tirwhit; Walter de Flynton'; Thomas la Warre
Places: Barnetby; Ketilby; Netilton' [Lincolnshire]
CP 25/1/290/60, number 68: (1402-1403)
Persons: Thomas Haweley; William Kelke; Robert Tirwhit; John Turnay; Roger de Bernardeston'; William Ingham; Margery
Places: Bernetby; Kedyngton'; Bernardeston'; Kedyngton'; Bernardeston'; Dagenham; Berkyng'; Whetele; Dancastre; Baldirton' [Suffolk. Essex. Yorkshire]
CP 25/1/144/153, number 7: (1409-1410)
Persons: William Kelke; Robert Tirwhit; Nicholas Tournay; Stephen Burne; Alice
Places: Magna Stepyng; Frysby [Lincolnshire]
CP 25/1/145/158, number 23: (1435)
Persons: Roger Kelke; Robert Feryby; Patrick Skypwyth'; Agnes
Places: Frothyngham; Bekeby; Wraweby [Lincolnshire]
CP 25/1/280/159, number 3: (1442)
Persons: William Tirwhit; William Kelke; Thomas Tirwhit; William West; Thomas Kelke; Elizabeth
Places: Beu[er]laco; Beu[er]laco; Beu[er]laci [Yorkshire]
Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Jordan Vandenberg.
I have a question about Roger Kelke who was father to Alice Kelke (wife of Robert Tirwhit) that I was hoping someone would be able to answer.
Is this Roger Kelke the same person as the Roger Kelke who married ______ Leyburne (daughter of Henry Leyburne) and had a son William Kelke?
They seem as though they would be the same age. There are also a number of fines where the Tirwhit's and the Kelke's are found together from around the same period.
http://medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/search.php?s=1&surname=kelke&given=&place=&after=&before=&county=&finecase=&finefile=&finenumber=
CP 25/1/144/150, number 5: (1395)
Persons: William Kelke; Robert Tirwhit'; Nicholas Tournay; Thomas Ruston'; Joan
Places: Magna Stepyng'; Frisby [Lincolnshire]
CP 25/1/144/151, number 33: (1401)
Persons: William Kelke; Richard Tirwhit; Robert Tirwhit; Walter de Flynton'; Thomas la Warre
Places: Barnetby; Ketilby; Netilton' [Lincolnshire]
CP 25/1/290/60, number 68: (1402-1403)
Persons: Thomas Haweley; William Kelke; Robert Tirwhit; John Turnay; Roger de Bernardeston'; William Ingham; Margery
Places: Bernetby; Kedyngton'; Bernardeston'; Kedyngton'; Bernardeston'; Dagenham; Berkyng'; Whetele; Dancastre; Baldirton' [Suffolk. Essex. Yorkshire]
CP 25/1/144/153, number 7: (1409-1410)
Persons: William Kelke; Robert Tirwhit; Nicholas Tournay; Stephen Burne; Alice
Places: Magna Stepyng; Frysby [Lincolnshire]
CP 25/1/145/158, number 23: (1435)
Persons: Roger Kelke; Robert Feryby; Patrick Skypwyth'; Agnes
Places: Frothyngham; Bekeby; Wraweby [Lincolnshire]
CP 25/1/280/159, number 3: (1442)
Persons: William Tirwhit; William Kelke; Thomas Tirwhit; William West; Thomas Kelke; Elizabeth
Places: Beu[er]laco; Beu[er]laco; Beu[er]laci [Yorkshire]
Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Jordan Vandenberg.
Jordan Vandenberg
Jun 9, 2017, 11:42:27 PM6/9/17
to
Here are some more fines that include both the Tirwhit's and the Kelke's.
The William Kelke appearing in the majority of them, I am guessing is William Kelke, son of Roger Kelke and _____ Leyburne, and the Robert Tirwhit is likely the Robert Tirwhit married to Alice Kelke. Does anyone know if this is correct?
CP 25/1/290/59, number 34: (1395-1401)
Persons: William Kelk; Robert Tyrwhyt'; John Ingelby; Ellen; Maud Wykes; Thomas de Welton'; William Wesci; Robert Crosse; John Pothowe; William Melton'; Thomas de Melton'; William Ricardson'; William Balcok; William Gardyner; Robert Haldenby; Walter Ake; William B
Places: Bernetby; Melton'; Northferiby; Feriby; Hull' [Yorkshire]
CP 25/1/279/150, number 1: (1403)
Persons: William Kelk'; Hugh Ardern'; Richard Tirwhit; Robert Bret; Thomas de Sc'o Quintino; Agnes
Places: Barnetby; Harpham; Harpham; Thirnome; Grauncemore; Burton' Annays; Kill'ome; Louthorp'; Kyngeston' sup[er] Hull' [Yorkshire]
CP 25/1/144/150, number 23: (1396)
Persons: William Kelk'; Thomas Tirwhit; Robert Tirwhit; Lawrence Bradley; Amy
Places: Bernetby; Bytham; Amwyk' [Lincolnshire]
CP 25/1/144/150, number 47: (1398)
Persons: William Kelk'; Thomas Tirwhit'; Robert Tirwhit'; Thomas la Warre
Places: Bernetby; Scalby [Lincolnshire]
CP 25/1/279/150, number 23: (1404)
Persons: William Kelk'; John Wanesford'; Robert Tirwhit; Thomas Coupeland'; Margaret
Places: Bernetby; Gymlyng'; [B]ersewyk'; Leuen; Holdernesse [Yorkshire]
CP 25/1/144/152, number 47: (1408)
Persons: William Kelk; Nicholas Tournay; Roger Berneston'; William Tirwhit; Thomas Scardeburgh'; George Monboucher; Elizabeth
Places: Thorp'; Bekeby [Lincolnshire]
CP 25/1/144/153, number 32: (1411)
Persons: William Kelk'; Nicholas Tournay; Richard [Tir?]whit; Walter Flynton'; John Hornse; Michael de la Pole; earl of Suffolk; Katherine
Places: Herpeswell' [Lincolnshire]
CP 25/1/144/154, number 4: (1413)
Persons: William Kelk'; William Tirwhit; Richard Trippok; John Beseby; Richard Galbard'; John de Cotom'; Joan
Places: Bernetby; Scamelsby; Dunston' [Lincolnshire]
The William Kelke appearing in the majority of them, I am guessing is William Kelke, son of Roger Kelke and _____ Leyburne, and the Robert Tirwhit is likely the Robert Tirwhit married to Alice Kelke. Does anyone know if this is correct?
CP 25/1/290/59, number 34: (1395-1401)
Persons: William Kelk; Robert Tyrwhyt'; John Ingelby; Ellen; Maud Wykes; Thomas de Welton'; William Wesci; Robert Crosse; John Pothowe; William Melton'; Thomas de Melton'; William Ricardson'; William Balcok; William Gardyner; Robert Haldenby; Walter Ake; William B
Places: Bernetby; Melton'; Northferiby; Feriby; Hull' [Yorkshire]
CP 25/1/279/150, number 1: (1403)
Persons: William Kelk'; Hugh Ardern'; Richard Tirwhit; Robert Bret; Thomas de Sc'o Quintino; Agnes
Places: Barnetby; Harpham; Harpham; Thirnome; Grauncemore; Burton' Annays; Kill'ome; Louthorp'; Kyngeston' sup[er] Hull' [Yorkshire]
CP 25/1/144/150, number 23: (1396)
Persons: William Kelk'; Thomas Tirwhit; Robert Tirwhit; Lawrence Bradley; Amy
Places: Bernetby; Bytham; Amwyk' [Lincolnshire]
CP 25/1/144/150, number 47: (1398)
Persons: William Kelk'; Thomas Tirwhit'; Robert Tirwhit'; Thomas la Warre
Places: Bernetby; Scalby [Lincolnshire]
CP 25/1/279/150, number 23: (1404)
Persons: William Kelk'; John Wanesford'; Robert Tirwhit; Thomas Coupeland'; Margaret
Places: Bernetby; Gymlyng'; [B]ersewyk'; Leuen; Holdernesse [Yorkshire]
CP 25/1/144/152, number 47: (1408)
Persons: William Kelk; Nicholas Tournay; Roger Berneston'; William Tirwhit; Thomas Scardeburgh'; George Monboucher; Elizabeth
Places: Thorp'; Bekeby [Lincolnshire]
CP 25/1/144/153, number 32: (1411)
Persons: William Kelk'; Nicholas Tournay; Richard [Tir?]whit; Walter Flynton'; John Hornse; Michael de la Pole; earl of Suffolk; Katherine
Places: Herpeswell' [Lincolnshire]
CP 25/1/144/154, number 4: (1413)
Persons: William Kelk'; William Tirwhit; Richard Trippok; John Beseby; Richard Galbard'; John de Cotom'; Joan
Places: Bernetby; Scamelsby; Dunston' [Lincolnshire]
Jan Wolfe
Jun 10, 2017, 2:42:54 AM6/10/17
to
On Friday, June 9, 2017 at 11:42:27 PM UTC-4, Jordan Vandenberg wrote:
> Here are some more fines that include both the Tirwhit's and the Kelke's.
> The William Kelke appearing in the majority of them, I am guessing is William Kelke, son of Roger Kelke and _____ Leyburne, and the Robert Tirwhit is likely the Robert Tirwhit married to Alice Kelke. Does anyone know if this is correct?
>
...
> Here are some more fines that include both the Tirwhit's and the Kelke's.
> The William Kelke appearing in the majority of them, I am guessing is William Kelke, son of Roger Kelke and _____ Leyburne, and the Robert Tirwhit is likely the Robert Tirwhit married to Alice Kelke. Does anyone know if this is correct?
>
>
> On Friday, June 9, 2017 at 11:14:06 PM UTC-4, Jordan Vandenberg wrote:
> > Good day,
> >
> > I have a question about Roger Kelke who was father to Alice Kelke (wife of Robert Tirwhit) that I was hoping someone would be able to answer.
> > Is this Roger Kelke the same person as the Roger Kelke who married ______ Leyburne (daughter of Henry Leyburne) and had a son William Kelke?
> >
> > They seem as though they would be the same age. There are also a number of fines where the Tirwhit's and the Kelke's are found together from around the same period.
> >
> > http://medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/search.php?s=1&surname=kelke&given=&place=&after=&before=&county=&finecase=&finefile=&finenumber=
...
> On Friday, June 9, 2017 at 11:14:06 PM UTC-4, Jordan Vandenberg wrote:
> > Good day,
> >
> > I have a question about Roger Kelke who was father to Alice Kelke (wife of Robert Tirwhit) that I was hoping someone would be able to answer.
> > Is this Roger Kelke the same person as the Roger Kelke who married ______ Leyburne (daughter of Henry Leyburne) and had a son William Kelke?
> >
> > They seem as though they would be the same age. There are also a number of fines where the Tirwhit's and the Kelke's are found together from around the same period.
> >
> > http://medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/search.php?s=1&surname=kelke&given=&place=&after=&before=&county=&finecase=&finefile=&finenumber=
The Kelke pedigree at https://books.google.com/books?id=6-8xAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA555 has a Robert Tirwhit marrying a Kelke daughter (an Isabel) in a later generation.
The pedigree shows Roger Kelke's granddaughter Isabella as the wife of Roger Barnardiston. Roger Barnardiston's son Thomas married Joan Vavasour, daughter of Henry Vavasour and Margaret Skipwith. I think Joan was born between 1407 and 1413.
A Roger Kelke was born about 1349 according to his stated age as a witness in the following proof of age:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/vol19/pp234-250
William Kelke of Barnetby and his wife Margaret were married by 24 April 1390:
http://medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/abstracts/CP_25_1_143_147.shtml#14
William and Margaret's son(?) William was married by 1406:
http://medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/abstracts/CP_25_1_144_152.shtml#18
Patrick Nielsen Hayden
Jun 10, 2017, 7:52:07 AM6/10/17
to
On 2017-06-10 06:42:52 +0000, Jan Wolfe said:
On Friday, June 9, 2017 at 11:42:27 PM UTC-4, Jordan Vandenberg wrote:
Here are some more fines that include both the Tirwhit's and the Kelke's.
The William Kelke appearing in the majority of them, I am guessing is William Kelke, son of Roger Kelke and _____ Leyburne, and the Robert Tirwhit is likely the Robert Tirwhit married to Alice Kelke. Does anyone know if this is correct?
...
On Friday, June 9, 2017 at 11:14:06 PM UTC-4, Jordan Vandenberg wrote:
Good day,
I have a question about Roger Kelke who was father to Alice Kelke (wife of Robert Tirwhit) that I was hoping someone would be able to answer.
Is this Roger Kelke the same person as the Roger Kelke who married ______ Leyburne (daughter of Henry Leyburne) and had a son William Kelke?
They seem as though they would be the same age. There are also a number of fines where the Tirwhit's and the Kelke's are found together from around the same period.
...
The Kelke pedigree at https://books.google.com/books?id=6-8xAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA555 has a Robert Tirwhit marrying a Kelke daughter (an Isabel) in a later generation.
The pedigree shows Roger Kelke's granddaughter Isabella as the wife of Roger Barnardiston. Roger Barnardiston's son Thomas married Joan Vavasour, daughter of Henry Vavasour and Margaret Skipwith. I think Joan was born between 1407 and 1413.
That pedigree also shows the Roger Kelke in question as the son of a William Kelke whose father was Walter Kelke and whose mother was "Margery, dau. of Sir William St. Quintin of Harpham, Co. York, Knt." According to the History of Parliament and other sources, Robert Tyrwhit and Alice Kelk's son William married Constance, daughter of Anselm St. Quintin of Brandsburton, Yorkshire. Proving nothing, but adding plausibility to the original suggestion that the Roger Kelke of this pedigree was the Roger Kelk given elsewhere as the father of Alice Kelk, wife of Robert Tyrwhit, the justice of the king's bench who died in 1428.
--
Patrick Nielsen Hayden
Patrick Nielsen Hayden
Jun 10, 2017, 8:04:31 AM6/10/17
to
On 2017-06-10 11:52:11 +0000, Patrick Nielsen Hayden said:
> That pedigree also shows the Roger Kelke in question as the son of a
> William Kelke whose father was Walter Kelke and whose mother was
> "Margery, dau. of Sir William St. Quintin of Harpham, Co. York, Knt."
> According to the History of Parliament and other sources, Robert
> Tyrwhit and Alice Kelk's son William married Constance, daughter of
> Anselm St. Quintin of Brandsburton, Yorkshire. Proving nothing, but
> adding plausibility to the original suggestion that the Roger Kelke of
> this pedigree was the Roger Kelk given elsewhere as the father of Alice
> Kelk, wife of Robert Tyrwhit, the justice of the king's bench who died
> in 1428.
I should have noted that the History of Parliament actually gives
> That pedigree also shows the Roger Kelke in question as the son of a
> William Kelke whose father was Walter Kelke and whose mother was
> "Margery, dau. of Sir William St. Quintin of Harpham, Co. York, Knt."
> According to the History of Parliament and other sources, Robert
> Tyrwhit and Alice Kelk's son William married Constance, daughter of
> Anselm St. Quintin of Brandsburton, Yorkshire. Proving nothing, but
> adding plausibility to the original suggestion that the Roger Kelke of
> this pedigree was the Roger Kelk given elsewhere as the father of Alice
> Kelk, wife of Robert Tyrwhit, the justice of the king's bench who died
> in 1428.
William Tyrwhit's wife Constance as merely "poss." a daughter of Sir
Anselm St. Quintin.
Jordan Vandenberg
Jun 10, 2017, 8:49:20 AM6/10/17
to
Good day,
Thanks Jan and Patrick for your insight and assistance on this.
The pedigree found in Lincolnshire Pedigrees seems a bit of a mess. It looks to me that there may be an extra generation or two included within the area of focus (extra William Kelke at least).
I found reference in the Discovery catalogue to a couple of Chancery proceedings that include reference to the Roger Kelke and William Kelke together. The first mentions an Em, late the wife of Roger Kelke, and William Kelke and Thomas Tirwhit as the said Roger's executors. Both the catalogue reference and the image are below. The second Chancery proceeding mentions a Roger Kelke esq. who was the grandson of Roger Kelke, the elder and William Kelk, gent., of Ludborough, and is in regards to the manor of Barnetby. I could not locate the image for the second record at the AALT site. The correct folder was there, but the number of the documents on the images is a mess and I could not find it. The link to the folder is below it's catalogue entry, if someone wants to see if they have better luck than me finding it.
To me it appears the Roger Kelke, the elder referred to in the second proceeding and the Roger Kelke referred to as deceased are one and the same, and the same Roger Kelke who is subject of the thread.
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7440230
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/ChP/C1no17/C1no17%20pt%202/IMG_0334.htm
Reference: C 1/17/240
Description:
Short title: Kelk v Kelk.
Plaintiffs: Em, late the wife of Roger Kelk.
Defendants: William Kelk and Thomas Tyrwhit, executors of the said Roger.
Subject: A third part of deceased's goods..
SFP
Date: 1407-1456
Held by: The National Archives, Kew
Legal status: Public Record(s)
Closure status: Open Document, Open Description
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7443211
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/ChP/C1no29/C1no29nos%20301-549/index.htm
Reference: C 1/29/508
Description:
Short title: Kelk v Kelk.
Plaintiffs: Roger Kelk, esq., grandson of Roger Kelk, the elder.
Defendants: William Kelk, gent., of Ludborough (Ludburgh), feoffee of petitioner's grandfather.
Subject: Manor of Barnetby. Lincolnshire
Date: 1460-1465
Held by: The National Archives, Kew
Legal status: Public Record(s)
Closure status: Open Document, Open Description
Jordan.
On Friday, June 9, 2017 at 11:14:06 PM UTC-4, Jordan Vandenberg wrote:
Thanks Jan and Patrick for your insight and assistance on this.
The pedigree found in Lincolnshire Pedigrees seems a bit of a mess. It looks to me that there may be an extra generation or two included within the area of focus (extra William Kelke at least).
I found reference in the Discovery catalogue to a couple of Chancery proceedings that include reference to the Roger Kelke and William Kelke together. The first mentions an Em, late the wife of Roger Kelke, and William Kelke and Thomas Tirwhit as the said Roger's executors. Both the catalogue reference and the image are below. The second Chancery proceeding mentions a Roger Kelke esq. who was the grandson of Roger Kelke, the elder and William Kelk, gent., of Ludborough, and is in regards to the manor of Barnetby. I could not locate the image for the second record at the AALT site. The correct folder was there, but the number of the documents on the images is a mess and I could not find it. The link to the folder is below it's catalogue entry, if someone wants to see if they have better luck than me finding it.
To me it appears the Roger Kelke, the elder referred to in the second proceeding and the Roger Kelke referred to as deceased are one and the same, and the same Roger Kelke who is subject of the thread.
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7440230
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/ChP/C1no17/C1no17%20pt%202/IMG_0334.htm
Reference: C 1/17/240
Description:
Short title: Kelk v Kelk.
Plaintiffs: Em, late the wife of Roger Kelk.
Defendants: William Kelk and Thomas Tyrwhit, executors of the said Roger.
Subject: A third part of deceased's goods..
SFP
Date: 1407-1456
Held by: The National Archives, Kew
Legal status: Public Record(s)
Closure status: Open Document, Open Description
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7443211
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/ChP/C1no29/C1no29nos%20301-549/index.htm
Reference: C 1/29/508
Description:
Short title: Kelk v Kelk.
Plaintiffs: Roger Kelk, esq., grandson of Roger Kelk, the elder.
Defendants: William Kelk, gent., of Ludborough (Ludburgh), feoffee of petitioner's grandfather.
Subject: Manor of Barnetby. Lincolnshire
Date: 1460-1465
Held by: The National Archives, Kew
Legal status: Public Record(s)
Closure status: Open Document, Open Description
Jordan.
On Friday, June 9, 2017 at 11:14:06 PM UTC-4, Jordan Vandenberg wrote:
Jordan Vandenberg
Jun 10, 2017, 1:42:43 PM6/10/17
to
Another interesting tidbit found in one of the fines mentioned above is that there is reference to William Kelke, the elder and Margaret his wife, and in the same fine reference to William Kelke, the younger and his wife Isabel. The fine is dated 25 June 1406, making the elder William Kelke married to Margaret a possibility as the William Kelke who was the son of Roger Kelke married to _____ Leyburne. If William Kelke the elder is this same William Kelke son of Roger, would that possibly make Margaret the wife mentioned the daughter of John Barnetby?
http://medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/abstracts/CP_25_1_144_152.shtml#17
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/CP25%281%29/CP25%281%29no144/IMG_2695.htm
CP 25/1/144/152, number 18.
Link: Image of document at AALT
County: Lincolnshire.
Place: Westminster.
Date: The day after St John the Baptist, 7 Henry [IV] [25 June 1406].
Parties: William Kelk the elder and Margaret, his wife, querents, and John Kydale and John Grene of Benyngworth', deforciants.
Property: 4 messuages, 16 bovates and 60 acres of land and 60 acres of meadow in Gunwardby, Louthburgh' and Bynbroke.
Action: Plea of covenant.
Agreement: William and Margaret have acknowledged the tenements to be the right of John Kydale, as those which the same John and John Grene have of their gift.
For this: John and John have granted to William and Margaret the tenements and have rendered them to them in the court, to hold to William and Margaret, of the chief lords for the lives of William and Margaret. And after the decease of William and Margaret the tenements shall remain to William Kelk the younger and Isabel, his wife, and the heirs of their bodies, to hold of the chief lords for ever. In default of such heirs, remainder to the right heirs of Margaret.
Standardised forms of names. (These are tentative suggestions, intended only as a finding aid.)
Persons: William Kelk, Margaret Kelk, John Kiddall, John Green, Isabel Kelk
Places: Benniworth, Gonerby, Ludborough, Binbrook
Any insight would be welcome and appreciated.
http://medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/abstracts/CP_25_1_144_152.shtml#17
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/CP25%281%29/CP25%281%29no144/IMG_2695.htm
CP 25/1/144/152, number 18.
Link: Image of document at AALT
County: Lincolnshire.
Place: Westminster.
Date: The day after St John the Baptist, 7 Henry [IV] [25 June 1406].
Parties: William Kelk the elder and Margaret, his wife, querents, and John Kydale and John Grene of Benyngworth', deforciants.
Property: 4 messuages, 16 bovates and 60 acres of land and 60 acres of meadow in Gunwardby, Louthburgh' and Bynbroke.
Action: Plea of covenant.
Agreement: William and Margaret have acknowledged the tenements to be the right of John Kydale, as those which the same John and John Grene have of their gift.
For this: John and John have granted to William and Margaret the tenements and have rendered them to them in the court, to hold to William and Margaret, of the chief lords for the lives of William and Margaret. And after the decease of William and Margaret the tenements shall remain to William Kelk the younger and Isabel, his wife, and the heirs of their bodies, to hold of the chief lords for ever. In default of such heirs, remainder to the right heirs of Margaret.
Standardised forms of names. (These are tentative suggestions, intended only as a finding aid.)
Persons: William Kelk, Margaret Kelk, John Kiddall, John Green, Isabel Kelk
Places: Benniworth, Gonerby, Ludborough, Binbrook
Any insight would be welcome and appreciated.
Jordan.
On Friday, June 9, 2017 at 11:14:06 PM UTC-4, Jordan Vandenberg wrote:
On Friday, June 9, 2017 at 11:14:06 PM UTC-4, Jordan Vandenberg wrote:
Jan Wolfe
Jun 10, 2017, 2:58:17 PM6/10/17
to
On Saturday, June 10, 2017 at 1:42:43 PM UTC-4, Jordan Vandenberg wrote:
> Another interesting tidbit found in one of the fines mentioned above is that there is reference to William Kelke, the elder and Margaret his wife, and in the same fine reference to William Kelke, the younger and his wife Isabel. The fine is dated 25 June 1406, making the elder William Kelke married to Margaret a possibility as the William Kelke who was the son of Roger Kelke married to _____ Leyburne. If William Kelke the elder is this same William Kelke son of Roger, would that possibly make Margaret the wife mentioned the daughter of John Barnetby?
>
> http://medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/abstracts/CP_25_1_144_152.shtml#17
> http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/CP25%281%29/CP25%281%29no144/IMG_2695.htm
>
> CP 25/1/144/152, number 18.
> Link: Image of document at AALT
> County: Lincolnshire.
> Place: Westminster.
> Date: The day after St John the Baptist, 7 Henry [IV] [25 June 1406].
> Parties: William Kelk the elder and Margaret, his wife, querents, and John Kydale and John Grene of Benyngworth', deforciants.
> Property: 4 messuages, 16 bovates and 60 acres of land and 60 acres of meadow in Gunwardby, Louthburgh' and Bynbroke.
> Action: Plea of covenant.
> Agreement: William and Margaret have acknowledged the tenements to be the right of John Kydale, as those which the same John and John Grene have of their gift.
> For this: John and John have granted to William and Margaret the tenements and have rendered them to them in the court, to hold to William and Margaret, of the chief lords for the lives of William and Margaret. And after the decease of William and Margaret the tenements shall remain to William Kelk the younger and Isabel, his wife, and the heirs of their bodies, to hold of the chief lords for ever. In default of such heirs, remainder to the right heirs of Margaret.
>
> Standardised forms of names. (These are tentative suggestions, intended only as a finding aid.)
> Persons: William Kelk, Margaret Kelk, John Kiddall, John Green, Isabel Kelk
> Places: Benniworth, Gonerby, Ludborough, Binbrook
>
>
>
> Any insight would be welcome and appreciated.
> Jordan.
>
...
> Another interesting tidbit found in one of the fines mentioned above is that there is reference to William Kelke, the elder and Margaret his wife, and in the same fine reference to William Kelke, the younger and his wife Isabel. The fine is dated 25 June 1406, making the elder William Kelke married to Margaret a possibility as the William Kelke who was the son of Roger Kelke married to _____ Leyburne. If William Kelke the elder is this same William Kelke son of Roger, would that possibly make Margaret the wife mentioned the daughter of John Barnetby?
>
> http://medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/abstracts/CP_25_1_144_152.shtml#17
> http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/CP25%281%29/CP25%281%29no144/IMG_2695.htm
>
> CP 25/1/144/152, number 18.
> Link: Image of document at AALT
> County: Lincolnshire.
> Place: Westminster.
> Date: The day after St John the Baptist, 7 Henry [IV] [25 June 1406].
> Parties: William Kelk the elder and Margaret, his wife, querents, and John Kydale and John Grene of Benyngworth', deforciants.
> Property: 4 messuages, 16 bovates and 60 acres of land and 60 acres of meadow in Gunwardby, Louthburgh' and Bynbroke.
> Action: Plea of covenant.
> Agreement: William and Margaret have acknowledged the tenements to be the right of John Kydale, as those which the same John and John Grene have of their gift.
> For this: John and John have granted to William and Margaret the tenements and have rendered them to them in the court, to hold to William and Margaret, of the chief lords for the lives of William and Margaret. And after the decease of William and Margaret the tenements shall remain to William Kelk the younger and Isabel, his wife, and the heirs of their bodies, to hold of the chief lords for ever. In default of such heirs, remainder to the right heirs of Margaret.
>
> Standardised forms of names. (These are tentative suggestions, intended only as a finding aid.)
> Persons: William Kelk, Margaret Kelk, John Kiddall, John Green, Isabel Kelk
> Places: Benniworth, Gonerby, Ludborough, Binbrook
>
>
>
> Any insight would be welcome and appreciated.
> Jordan.
>
Yes, that is one of the fines I mentioned in my post. The abstract of the fine doesn't state that the younger William was the son of the elder William and Margaret, but it does seem consistent with that hypothesis.
A William Kelke was an escheater in the mid 1380s. It seems plausible that he was the man married to Margaret by 1390. A problem is that such a William would be too old to be the son of a Roger born in 1349. Perhaps the statement in the inquisition should be interpreted as at least age 60. Or perhaps the Roger in the inquisition is a different man.
joe...@gmail.com
Jun 10, 2017, 4:09:00 PM6/10/17
to
According to the pedigrees in Lincolnshire there seem to be a number of known Roger Kelkes, and no doubt a few unknown ones. Even more so for William It will be.difficult with the current Information to even try to form a sketch of a tree that is anything more than really rough guesses.
Are we even certain that Roger Tirwhit's father in law was indeed need Roger?
Are we even certain that Roger Tirwhit's father in law was indeed need Roger?
Jordan Vandenberg
Jun 10, 2017, 4:23:19 PM6/10/17
to
Joe,
In "Notices and remains of the family of Tyrwhitt..." by Robert Philip Tyrwhitt there is proof offered that Roger Kelke was the father of Alice Kelke who married Robert Triwhit. Monuments in Barnetby Church are described relating to them.
See pages 12-13 in the text and footnote 4.
https://books.google.ca/books?id=UGYBAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA12&lpg=PA12&dq=kelke+tyrwhitt&source=bl&ots=-WSvNRZdeq&sig=TAHqbs0XAbGTtzOgFS4zDK8phf4&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=kelke%20tyrwhitt&f=false
Jordan.
In "Notices and remains of the family of Tyrwhitt..." by Robert Philip Tyrwhitt there is proof offered that Roger Kelke was the father of Alice Kelke who married Robert Triwhit. Monuments in Barnetby Church are described relating to them.
See pages 12-13 in the text and footnote 4.
https://books.google.ca/books?id=UGYBAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA12&lpg=PA12&dq=kelke+tyrwhitt&source=bl&ots=-WSvNRZdeq&sig=TAHqbs0XAbGTtzOgFS4zDK8phf4&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=kelke%20tyrwhitt&f=false
Jordan.
John Higgins
Jun 10, 2017, 7:08:57 PM6/10/17
to
Aside from this source and the reference to "Sir Roger Kelke of Kelke, Yorkshire" in the Tyrwhit pedigree in "Lincolnshire Pedigrees", is there any evidence that this Roger (if he existed) was actually a knight? And is there a place in Yorkshire called Kelke? I can't readily find one.
Perhaps the Tyrwhit pedigree, which seems to be the source for subsequent mentions of this relationship, should have said that Alice was "sister of Roger" rather than "daughter of Sir Roger".
Jordan Vandenberg
Jun 10, 2017, 8:07:13 PM6/10/17
to
John,
Thanks for your insight. I cannot find reference to Roger Kelke as a knight. the Tirwhit and Kelke families seem to have a close relationship given the number of times they appear together in records both in Lincolnshire and Yorkshire.
There seems to be manors of Great Kelk and Little Kelk found in Yorkshire. If search Kelke in the Discovery archives a number of results referring to it will show up.
Jordan.
Thanks for your insight. I cannot find reference to Roger Kelke as a knight. the Tirwhit and Kelke families seem to have a close relationship given the number of times they appear together in records both in Lincolnshire and Yorkshire.
There seems to be manors of Great Kelk and Little Kelk found in Yorkshire. If search Kelke in the Discovery archives a number of results referring to it will show up.
Jordan.
Guy Vincent
Jun 10, 2017, 8:07:54 PM6/10/17
to John Higgins, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
I've never found any of the Kelke family to have been knights. A Roger
Kelke of this period was fined scutage for failure to become one. I
imagine if your land holdings just qualified you for any part of a
knights fee it would be quite a burden financially. The family were
originally of Great Kelk in the East Riding where the earliest holder I
can find was one John de Beverley, steward to Robert de Ros. He had a
son Reynold and a daughter Agnes de Kel, his heir. The family moved
across into Lincolnshire to Barnetby-le-Wold about the time of the
marriage of William de Kelke to the daughter of Ralph Welwick.
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Kelke of this period was fined scutage for failure to become one. I
imagine if your land holdings just qualified you for any part of a
knights fee it would be quite a burden financially. The family were
originally of Great Kelk in the East Riding where the earliest holder I
can find was one John de Beverley, steward to Robert de Ros. He had a
son Reynold and a daughter Agnes de Kel, his heir. The family moved
across into Lincolnshire to Barnetby-le-Wold about the time of the
marriage of William de Kelke to the daughter of Ralph Welwick.
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Guy Vincent
Jun 10, 2017, 8:12:44 PM6/10/17
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
My apologies, that should have been Agnes de Kelk not Agnes de Kel.
Guy Vincent
On 11/06/17 09:37 am, Guy Vincent wrote:
> I've never found any of the Kelke family to have been knights. A Roger
> Kelke of this period was fined scutage for failure to become one. I
> imagine if your land holdings just qualified you for any part of a
> knights fee it would be quite a burden financially. The family were
> originally of Great Kelk in the East Riding where the earliest holder
> I can find was one John de Beverley, steward to Robert de Ros. He had
> a son Reynold and a daughter Agnes de Kel, his heir. The family moved
> across into Lincolnshire to Barnetby-le-Wold about the time of the
> marriage of William de Kelke to the daughter of Ralph Welwick.
>
> On 11/06/17 08:38 am, John Higgins wrote:
Guy Vincent
On 11/06/17 09:37 am, Guy Vincent wrote:
> I've never found any of the Kelke family to have been knights. A Roger
> Kelke of this period was fined scutage for failure to become one. I
> imagine if your land holdings just qualified you for any part of a
> knights fee it would be quite a burden financially. The family were
> originally of Great Kelk in the East Riding where the earliest holder
> I can find was one John de Beverley, steward to Robert de Ros. He had
> a son Reynold and a daughter Agnes de Kel, his heir. The family moved
> across into Lincolnshire to Barnetby-le-Wold about the time of the
> marriage of William de Kelke to the daughter of Ralph Welwick.
>
> On 11/06/17 08:38 am, John Higgins wrote:
John Higgins
Jun 11, 2017, 1:40:18 AM6/11/17
to
All the usual accounts of the Tyrwhit family - including HOP, ODNB, and the 1862 book by Robert Philip Tyrwhitt cited earlier in this thread - appear to have relied solely on the Tyrwhit pedigree while overlooking the Kelke pedigree. However I think the Kelke pedigree offers a solution which is chronologically satisfactory without having to search for a Sir Roger Kelke. Perhaps it's time to recognize that the accounts of the Tyrwhit family are simply wrong in this regard.
Jan Wolfe
Jun 12, 2017, 3:17:04 PM6/12/17
to
On Sunday, June 11, 2017 at 1:40:18 AM UTC-4, John Higgins wrote:
...
"Furthermore, the aforesaid Lord Roos, in the presence of those present, shall publicly forgive the aforesaid Robert and all the others in the abovesaid party who were assembled at the loveday and who came with the same said Robert, for all their crimes and trespasses; except only four persons, that is to say, Richard Haunsard, knight, William Kelk, Roger Berneston, and Roger Kelk, the son of the aforesaid William; which four persons we ordain that the same Robert shall bring at the direction of the aforesaid Lord Roos to his own castle, the castle of Belvoir, into his presence; so that they too can acknowledge their offence and submit themselves to the same Lord Roos, praying him for grace and mercy."
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/no-series/parliament-rolls-medieval/november-1411
Chris Given-Wilson, Paul Brand, Seymour Phillips, Mark Ormrod, Geoffrey Martin, Anne Curry and Rosemary Horrox, eds., _Parliament Rolls of Medieval England_ (Woodbridge, 2005)
...
> I don't disagree that the Tyrwhit and Kelke families had a close relationship - including quite possibly the marriage of a Kelke daughter to Robert Tyrwhit the justice. However, the Tyrwhit and Kelke pedigrees in "Lincolnshire Pedigrees" disagree as to the identification of this daughter. The Tyrwhit pedigree says she was Anne, dau. of SIR Roger Kelke of Kelke, while the Kelke pedigree says she was Isabell, sister of Roger Kelke of Barnetby.
>
> All the usual accounts of the Tyrwhit family - including HOP, ODNB, and the 1862 book by Robert Philip Tyrwhitt cited earlier in this thread - appear to have relied solely on the Tyrwhit pedigree while overlooking the Kelke pedigree. However I think the Kelke pedigree offers a solution which is chronologically satisfactory without having to search for a Sir Roger Kelke. Perhaps it's time to recognize that the accounts of the Tyrwhit family are simply wrong in this regard.
There are a number of documents that provide information about some of the generations in the Kelke family. For example, in the November 1411 settlement following a loveday confrontation between William Lord Roos and Robert Tirwhit, justice of the King's Bench, and his men, it was ordered that
>
> All the usual accounts of the Tyrwhit family - including HOP, ODNB, and the 1862 book by Robert Philip Tyrwhitt cited earlier in this thread - appear to have relied solely on the Tyrwhit pedigree while overlooking the Kelke pedigree. However I think the Kelke pedigree offers a solution which is chronologically satisfactory without having to search for a Sir Roger Kelke. Perhaps it's time to recognize that the accounts of the Tyrwhit family are simply wrong in this regard.
"Furthermore, the aforesaid Lord Roos, in the presence of those present, shall publicly forgive the aforesaid Robert and all the others in the abovesaid party who were assembled at the loveday and who came with the same said Robert, for all their crimes and trespasses; except only four persons, that is to say, Richard Haunsard, knight, William Kelk, Roger Berneston, and Roger Kelk, the son of the aforesaid William; which four persons we ordain that the same Robert shall bring at the direction of the aforesaid Lord Roos to his own castle, the castle of Belvoir, into his presence; so that they too can acknowledge their offence and submit themselves to the same Lord Roos, praying him for grace and mercy."
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/no-series/parliament-rolls-medieval/november-1411
Chris Given-Wilson, Paul Brand, Seymour Phillips, Mark Ormrod, Geoffrey Martin, Anne Curry and Rosemary Horrox, eds., _Parliament Rolls of Medieval England_ (Woodbridge, 2005)
Jan Wolfe
Jun 12, 2017, 6:01:33 PM6/12/17
to
The York Medieval Probate Index, 1267-1500, on FindMyPast, states that the will of William Kelk, Esquire, Lord of Barnetby, in Barnetby le Wold, Lincolnshire, was dated 29 Sep 1418 and proved 14 Nov 1419 in the York Prerogative & Exchequer Courts (Reg 18 (Bowet), Folio 372v-373r, held at the Borthwick Institute of Historical Research). The Lincolnshire pedigree, cited earlier in this thread, states that William's will was dated on the feast of St. Mathias 1418.
The index, on FindMyPast, states that one can order the will using the the following form:
http://www.york.ac.uk/borthwick/remote-services/copying/order-form/
According to the Lincolnshire pedigree of the Kelke family, this is the William Kelke whose sister married Roger Barnardiston and whose daughter married Robert Tirwhit.
The index, on FindMyPast, states that one can order the will using the the following form:
http://www.york.ac.uk/borthwick/remote-services/copying/order-form/
According to the Lincolnshire pedigree of the Kelke family, this is the William Kelke whose sister married Roger Barnardiston and whose daughter married Robert Tirwhit.
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