Jelena queen of Serbia
M.Sjostrom
part of this discussion:
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2009-05/1242979319
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00165016&tree=LEO
--
I would say that also a person born in a legitimate marriage, would say to been conceived and born in sin,
because that's one of teachings of christian churches: even the married sex is part of the original sin.
--- On Tue, 11/17/09, Dr Andy D Kucar P2EE4 www.radio4u.com <an...@radio4u.com> wrote:
> From: Dr Andy D Kucar P2EE4 www.radio4u.com <an...@radio4u.com>
> Subject: Jelena Angelina
> To: GMcD...@nybg.org, leov...@netspeed.com.au, PDel...@aol.com, qs...@yahoo.com
> Date: Tuesday, November 17, 2009, 7:25 PM
>
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> Jelena Angelina
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Gentlemen,
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>
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>
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> Thank you for
> your interesting contributions.
>
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> I would like
> to add some further thoughts on this
> interesting topic.
>
Let assume, CaloIoannes Angelos was Jelena's (at least legal) father;
thus, let call her Jelena Angelina.
Since, it appears, the corpses of both Jelena, and her (half) sister Maria, are available, a DNA test could (dis)prove their true relationship.
Jelena allegedly said:
ja sam bila u
grehu zaceta, i u grehu rodjena.
I was conceived in sin, and I was born in sin.
Meaning, her mother (Mathildis of Vianden Pozega) eventually married only after Jelena's birth.
There exist a possibility, that Mathildis might had become pregnant,
say in Vianden, and was dispatched away to Hungary to bring future Jelena to life.
Jelena Angelina translates to French as Helene Ange.
Ange might had been (miss)translated back to slavic as Anzu (Anzevin),
thus, someone wrote Jelena Anzujska (Anzevinska).
Anzu comes from d'Anjou, instead.
About 1276, Charles d'Anjou I of Naples allegedly said/wrote,
that his house of d'Anjou and Jelena are related.
Thus, someone might had jumped the gun and gave to Jelena the more appealing Helene d'Anjou name.
However, since 1270/2 the house of d'Anjou of Naples and the Arpad house became double related by double marriages.
Thus, Jelena, as granddaughter of Margit Margaret Maria, was indeed related to Charles d'Anjou through that
d'Anjou - Arpad double connection.
To address M.Sjostrom's close relationship ...
Those were crazy times of post Mongol (1241/2) invasion.
Bela IV's daughter Margit, the older, was betrothed/married to Bela's first cousin William, the youngest son of Bela's aunt Margit, mother of CaloIoannes, thus William and CaloIoannes were half-brothers.
Margit and William (both died in 1242) might have had a child William?
It would be nice to know where exactly were CaloIoannes and William?
At Sajo?
William died in Trau > Trogir.
Bela IV, as king of Rascia, Bulgaria, etc.,
put Uros II in power, around 1243,
and might had, already at that time, as a part of the package, betrothed/married mature Uros to a child Jelena.
There is yet another twist to Helene d'Anjou name.
Subic clan traveled often to Naples.
Robert of Naples, and one of the popes, allegedly said that Subic and d'Anjou of Naples are related.
Juraj II Subic's (or some other Subic) wife might have been Helene d'Anjou?
Or at least came from Naples and was related to d’Anjou.
Juraj II Subic's daughter Jelena, became the mother of famous Tvrtko I,
and was in close contact with d'Anjou Lajos house of Hungary.
> Thank you for
> your attention.
>
>
>
>
> Sincerely
>
>
Andy D Kucar
M.Sjostrom
http://www.feefhs.org/links/Serbia/jelena.html
to be conceived and born in sin, is one of teachings of christian churches: even the married sex is part of the original sin.
--- On Thu, 11/19/09, McDaniel, Gordon <GMcD...@nybg.org> wrote:
> From: McDaniel, Gordon <GMcD...@nybg.org>
> Subject: RE: Jelena Angelina
> To: an...@radio4u.com, leov...@netspeed.com.au, PDel...@aol.com, qs...@yahoo.com
> Date: Thursday, November 19, 2009, 1:14 PM
>
>
> There's more here than I can comment on
> at one time. Let these
> comments suffice for now.
>
> Everyone was born in sin, so if
> Jelena said she was
> there is no reason to think it was only because she was
> illegitimate.
> Every scribe who put his name to a manuscript signed it
> something like: ja,
> greshni ieromonakh grigori (sorry, can't do
> diacritics at the moment).
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>
>
> To try
> to back interpret Anzujska from Ange is nonsense. The
> name was applied to
> Jelena only in the late 19th century by scholars who had
> read the correspondence
> from the Kings of Naples and Sicily.
>
>
> I know
> of no reference to Bela IV as king of Rascia.
>
>
> Have
> you actually read my article?
>
> Gordon McDaniel
> Head, Cataloging Services
> The
> LuEsther T. Mertz Library
> The New York
> Botanical Garden
> Bronx, NY
> 10458
> 718/817-8619
> address M. Sjostrom's close relationship
Dina Grozev
>
>
> http://www.feefhs.org/links/Serbia/jelena.html
>
> to be conceived and born in sin, is one of teachings of christian churches:
> even the married sex is part of the original sin.
>
Unless you are orthodox christian, which is reasonably relevant here, as
long as you're making a point about it..
Dina
M.Sjostrom
another point:
Jelena's supposed mother, the Frankish high-born lady, (Matildis of Pozega), was of such high class, and somewhat young, that it is inconceivable that she would have been deflowered by her future husband before the marriage.
Really, the today standards of urbanized societies or the standards of commoner population, are unsuitable for devising how those highly-noble young heiresses libed their lives.
One of points in that was that pre-marital sex was rare, and moreover it was pretty (or extremely) rare for a high-aristocratic couple (both highly born) to start 'without the benefit of marriage'.
The husband in this equation could well have had unwed mistresses.
And the wife had no sex before her marriage.
These sort of people had the standard of
- having the marriage negotiated
- preserving the bride's virginity until marriage
- having sex with one another only after the solemnization of the matrimony
The reconstruction of Matildis of Pozega's age shows she was probably adolescent.
And this was pretty usual for the first marriage in her class.
Her family highly likely had raised her to wait for the marriage. A matter of honor.
So, whatever was the reason why Jelena expressed to have been born in sin, it is very unlikely that the reason would have been pre-marital sex with her future husband.
So, Jelena would not in high likelihood have meant pre-marital sex.
Renia
>
> http://www.feefhs.org/links/Serbia/jelena.html
>
> to be conceived and born in sin, is one of teachings of christian churches: even the married sex is part of the original sin.
As descendants of Adam, we are all born with his original sin.
QUOTE
Original sin may be taken to mean: (1) the sin that Adam committed; (2)
a consequence of this first sin, the hereditary stain with which we are
born on account of our origin or descent from Adam.
ENDQUOTE