Update to genealogics : Thomas Poynings, Lord of St John d 1429
WJho...@aol.com
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00304788&tree=LEO
we see Thomas Poynings, Lord of St John who d 7 Mar 1429
He was married three times, only one child is shown Hugh
And off this Hugh we see one child Constance who married John Paulet
I now present details that show there were at least two other descent lines
plus that the widow Maud (Matilda) survived Thomas
Will Johnson
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West Sussex Record Office: The Goodwood Estate Archives [Estate Papers 1]
The Goodwood Estate Archives
Catalogue Ref. GOODWOOD
Creator(s): Lennox, Gordon-, family, Dukes of Richmond and Gordon
Gordon-Lennox family, Dukes of Richmond and Gordon
[Note] Any document quoted in research or published work should be given the
reference Goodwood MS. followed by the appropriate number (e.g. Goodwood MS.
E328, or Goodwood MSS. E24-29). The words 'By courtesy of His Grace the Duke of
Richmond and Gordon, and with acknowledgments to the West Sussex County
Record Office and the County Archivist', should accompany quotations from the
archives, as an expression of thanks for permission to use the Goodwood Archives.
ESTATE PAPERS
MANORIAL TITLE DEEDS
MANORS OF HALNAKER, WALBERTON, BOXGROVE, TANGMERE, BARNHAM AND EAST LAVANT
(The earlier deeds also refer to other manors.)
FILE - Grant - ref. GOODWOOD/E274 - date: 2 March 1432/3
[from Scope and Content] The manors of Halfnakede and Walberton; the
foundation or patronage of Boxgrove priory; the manor of Newbury, co. Kent, and the
advowson of the church there. With remainder to John Bonevyle, one of the heirs
of the said Thomas Ponynggys, John Paulet and Constance his wife, another of
the heirs of the said Thomas, and Thomas Kyngeston, kt. and Alesie his wife,
the third heir of the said Thomas, to hold to them and the heirs of the bodies
of the said John Bonevyle, Constance and Alesie, and in default of such issues
to the right heirs of Thomas Ponynggys.
MANOR OF WOODCOTE
FILE - Grant - ref. GOODWOOD/E676 - date: 19 Nov 1433
[from Scope and Content] Robert, Lord Ponyngges, William Cheyne, kt., Richard
Wakehurst, Richard Fust and Richard Pikot, to Matilda, widow of Thomas
Ponyngges, kt., Lord of St. John, John Bonevyle, Thomas Kyngeston, kt. and Alesia
his wife, John Paulet and Constance his wife.
John Higgins
considerable information on the heirs of Thomas Poynings, Lord St. John (d.
1429). The three heirs mentioned in your citation (John Bonville, Constance
wife of John Paulet, and "Alesie" wife of Sir Thomas Kingston) are the heirs
of Hugh Poynings (by his two marriages) and thus the theoretical heirs to
the barony of St. John, considered by modern peerage doctrine to be in
abeyance. Thomas Poynings, Lord St. John, did have other children (who are
described in CP), and CP also notes that his 3rd wife Maud Mawley d. 14 June
1453, long after him. So this is not "new news"....
I greatly appreciate Leo's database, but I think Leo would be the first to
say that it certainly is not comprehensive and exhaustive - it doesn't cover
EVERYBODY!! I'd guess that, like many other such efforts, it started as a
collection of people that were "interesting" to Leo and grew accordingly.
So "updates" to Genealogics are not quite of the same nature as
"corrections" or "additions" to (for example) CP or RPA (not that these two
are equivalent) which at least purport to be more comprehensive.
Having said all this, Will's note, when read with CP, does highlight some
difficulties in Leo's data regarding Hugh Poynings. In particular, his
first marriage is missing, which leads to some interesting descents -
including :Prince William....
Leo van de Pas
heir and why.
My records of Thomas Poynings were extracted from Burke's Extinct Peerage
1866.
I have now looked at CP X 667. Here we find in footnote K that his third
wife was probably a de Mauley and that by her he had a son Thomas and two
(unnamed daughters). On Page 668 the connections I have are changed again.
What is the correct situation?
Thomas married (1) Joan (2) Philippe Mortimer (3) Maud widow of John Halsham
By Joan he has a daughter married to a Bonville and this daughter has a son
John Bonville, one of the heirs mentioned. By Joan he also had a son Hugh
who died before him.
Then by Philippe he has two daughters, Constance then married to John
Paulet (and later to Henry Greene) and Alice who married (1) John Orvell 2)
Sir Thomas Kyngeston.
And then there are Thomas and two unnamed daughters by wife nr 3.
I have Constance as a daughter of Hugh, making her a granddaughter. This can
be found in Cahiers de Saint Louis page 990. But according to CP this is
wrong.
CP indicates that grandson John Bonville (son of his eldest daughter by the
first wife) is the first heir, Constance and Alice are second and third
heirs being daughter by the second wife.
This seems to tell us that Thomas and the two unnamed daughters by the 3rd
wife had died before 1429. Can anyone tell what the correct situation is?
Many thanks.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJho...@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Chris Phillips
Leo van de Pas wrote:
> What is the correct situation?
> Thomas married (1) Joan (2) Philippe Mortimer (3) Maud widow of John
Halsham
> By Joan he has a daughter married to a Bonville and this daughter has a
son
> John Bonville, one of the heirs mentioned. By Joan he also had a son Hugh
> who died before him.
>
> Then by Philippe he has two daughters, Constance then married to John
> Paulet (and later to Henry Greene) and Alice who married (1) John Orvell
2)
> Sir Thomas Kyngeston.
The text in CP (vol. 10, p. 668) is a bit ambiguous, and I can see how it
could be read that way. it says any barony "went into abeyance (according to
modern doctrine) among the coheirs of his [Thomas's] son Hugh - viz. John
Bonvill (said to be aged 16 in 1429), s. and h. of his da. (by the 1st wife)
Joan; and his 2 daughters (by the 2nd wife), Constance, wife of John Paulet,
and Alice, then wife of John Orrell and afterwards of Sir Thomas Kyngeston,
Kt."
But the two remaining occurrences of "his" must refer to Hugh, not Thomas,
so these three coheirs are the granddaughters of Thomas by the two marriages
of Hugh. This must be so if John was 16 in 1329 and was a son of the first
wife, because Thomas's first wife was dead by 1399. Also from p. 667, note
l, it seems that Thomas's younger sons are mentioned in his will.
Chris Phillips
Bevan Shortridge
For some of the relationships under discussion the following might assist:
IPM No. 220 - Hugh de Sancto Johanne, Knight, 15 June 1429.
Writ mandamus. 15 June 1429.[Wymbyssh].
SUSSEX. Inquisition. Midhurst. 3 June 1429. [Otteworth].
relevant portion:
"He died on 26 December 1426. Constance wife of John Paulet, Alice wife of John Orell, and John Bonevile are his next heirs. Constance and Alice are his daughters, and John Bonevile is son of Joan daughter of Hugh. Constance is aged 20 and more, Alice is aged 17 and more, and John Bonevile is asked 16 and more."
IPM No. 295 - Thomas Poynings de Sancto Johanne, Chevalier
Writ 14 March 1429.[Wymbyssh].
SUSSEX Inquisition. Petworth. 17 April 1429.[Otteworth].
relevant portion:
"He died on 7 March last. Constance wife of John Poulet, Alice wife of John Orell, and John Bonevyle are his kin and next heirs. Constance and Alice are daughters of Hugh son of Thomas Ponynges, and John Bonevyle is the son of Joan daughter of Hugh son of Thomas. Constance is aged 20 and more, Alice is aged 19 and mnore, and John is aged 16 and more."
Reference:
Public Record Office.
Calendar of inquisitions post mortem and other analogous documents preserved in the Public Record Office. Prepared under the superintendence of the deputy keeper of the records.
London, Printed for H. M. Stationery Off. by Mackie and to be purchased from Eyre and Spottiswoode, 1904-<2004 >
(Volume XXIII): 6-10 Henry VI 1427-1432.
IPMs no. 220 (page 110), no. 295 (page 156)
Regards,
Bevan Shortridge
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