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Colville-Darcy

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Clagett, Brice

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Jan 28, 2002, 1:29:43 PM1/28/02
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The story that Sir John de Colville's wife Alice was executed with
him is based on what I think is a misreading of John Hardyng's
Chronicle (pub. 1812), page 363:
"The Lord Hastynges at Duresme [Durham] was then take,
The lord Fauconbridge together in company,
Sir John Colvile of ye Dale and his make [mate],
Sir John Ruthyn, that knights were full manly
To th'erle of Northumberland openly,
Were headed at Duresme four upon a daye,
And to Warkworth remeuid in grete araye."

I do not read this as saying that Lady Colville was beheaded --
which would have been most extraordinary -- but that she was
captured at Durham, or taken there, with her husband. It is the
four men who were beheaded.

Sir John de Colville was not born c. 1377-80, but much earlier.
Sir John and his wife Alice had a grant of the manors of
Thimbleby, etc., in 1375. "Ingleby Arncliffe," Yorkshire Arch.
Journal 16:167. Their grandson and heir was aged 20 and upwards in
1414. Sir John's grandparents Robert Colville and Elizabeth
Conyers were married about 1330. Thus Sir John must have been born
about 1350-55.

That Lady Colville was the daughter of "Johan Sire Darcy" is
attested by an early 15th-century pedigree in French, set forth at
YAJ 16:212. There seems no reason to doubt it. This would have
been the 2d Lord Darcy, who was aged over 30 in 1347 (CP 4:59),
not his grandson the 4th lord. The chronology is fine.

I have seen no evidence as to whether Alice's mother was Alianore
de Holand, first wife of Lord Darcy, or Elizabeth Meinill, second
wife, both of illustrious ancestry. Chronology strongly indicates
the second: Alianore died by 1341, and Lord Darcy married
Elizabeth in 1345. CP 4:59-60. Thus if Alice was Alianore's
daughter she would have been at least ten years older than her
husband.

cbe...@paradise.net.nz

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Jan 28, 2002, 3:41:44 PM1/28/02
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Dear Brice

Thank you for your comments concerning Sir John de Colville. I take it that you
have the YAJ article at hand?

If what you say is correct, then line 208 in AR7, leading from Sir Robert de Ros
d.1285 to Sir Ferdinando Gorges d.1647, is completely demolished, for it has Sir
John de Colville (executed 1405) son of Sir William de Colville and Joan
Faucomberge, born within the parameters of their marriage in 1376/7 until Sir
William's death c 1380/81. Joan Faucomberge's will is dated 1390.
William de Colville was previously married to Joan St Quentin.

The surprising thing is that the author of the line used exactly the same article as
you have quoted to construct it.

As John and Alice de Colville were granted Thimbleby in 1375, presumably on their
marriage, the chronology supports that Alice is daughter of John Lord Darcy and
Elizabeth Meinell, daughter of Sir Nicholas Meinell and Alice de Ros. Elizabeth was
14 when she married Darcy. (Darcy's first wife, Alianore de Holand died without
issue. [CP IV p.59]). This would give the parameters of Alice Darcy's birth 1345-
1356. Her brothers, John and Philip, were born 1350 and 1352.

I would be very grateful if you could outline the Colville pedigree if one is given in
the YAJ article.

Cheers

Rosie

On 28 Jan 2002 at 13:28, Clagett, Brice wrote:

Clagett, Brice

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Jan 29, 2002, 12:29:47 PM1/29/02
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Dear Rosie,

The problem is not with the Ros-Faucomberge-Colville descent but
with the dates grafted onto it by AR7. Nothing in the YAJ article
supports AR's assertion that the Colville-Faucomberge marriage
occurred in 1376/7, and it clearly occurred much earlier. In
addition to the facts cited in my post of yesterday, John 2d Lord
Faucomberge was born in 1290 and was married by 1331. CP 5:271-72.
His daughter Joan could easily have been old enough to be the
mother of Sir John de Colville born 1350-55.

The Colville pedigree in YAJ, all vouched for by the early
15th-century ms. that I mentioned yesterday, runs:

1. Philip de Colville, fl. 1197-1213; m. Engelisa, dau. and heir
of Robert Ingram.
2. William de Colville, fl. 1240-47.
3. Philip de Colville, fl. 1268.
4. William de Colville, fl. 1270.
5. Sir Robert de Colville, fl. 1300-24.
6. Sir Robert de Colville, fl. 1330; m. Elizabeth, dau. and heir
of Sir John Conyers.
7. Sir William de Colville, fl. 1359-76; m. (1) Joan, dau. of
John, Lord Faucomberge; (2) Joan St. Quintin.
8. (by first marriage) Sir John de Colville, fl. 1375, beheaded
1405; m. Alice, dau. of John, Lord Darcy.
9. Sir Robert de Colville, d.v.p.; m. Elizabeth, dau. of Sir
William Fulthorpe.
10. Sir John de Colville, aged 20 in 1414; m. Isabel, dau. of Sir
Peter Tilyolf; d.s.p. 1418.
9. Isabella de Colville, m. (1) John Wandesford, (2) John
Fencotes.
9. Joan de Colville, m. Sir William Mauleverer.

I have a copy of the parts of the YAJ article that deal with the
Colvilles; would be glad to send you a copy if you will give me a
snailing address.

CP 4:59 does not say that Alianore de Holand, first wife of John
2d Lord Darcy, died s.p.; it says she died s.p.m. Nonetheless I
agree, for the reasons given in my post of yesterday, that Alice
Darcy was the daughter of Elizabeth Meinill, the second wife.

cbe...@paradise.net.nz

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Jan 30, 2002, 12:59:03 AM1/30/02
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Dear Brice

Thank you very much for the clarification. It looks as if Joan de Faucomberge may
have actually died early on, as William de Colville, in right of his second wife Joan
de St Quintin, is recorded as doing fealty in March 1357/58 for a third of the manor
of Eaton Socon, Bedfordshire, as dower from Joan's first marriage to John Engaine.
William de Colville died before Joan de St Quinton who died s.p. in 1390 when her
brother was found to be her heir [CP V :77 note b].

It appears that AR has confused the two Joans. This might be owing to the fact that
Joan de St Quintin refers to Sir John Colville as her son in her will - "Et domino
Johanni Colvyll militi, filio meo, ..." [Testamenta Eboracensia, Surtees Soc Pub, v.4
p 135]. There is little doubt as to her identity because she leaves 20s for candles to
be burned in the church at Eaton Socon. I think we have to explain this as an
example of one where the testator expresses the step relationship in the same way
as a natural one.

Thank you for the offer of the YAJ article, which I am delighted to accept. I will send
my address privately.

Cheers

Rosie

On 29 Jan 2002 at 12:28, Clagett, Brice wrote:

Date forwarded: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 10:29:47 -0700
From: "Clagett, Brice" <bcla...@cov.com>
Subject: Colville-Darcy
Date sent: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 12:28:36 -0500
To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
Forwarded by: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com

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